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RE: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

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  • Palmer, Ralph
    Hi, Scott - Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while. Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger -- trauma? Or trauma -- anger? Ralph
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 23, 2006
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      Hi, Scott -

      Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.

      Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
      anger?

      Ralph
      +++++++++++++++++++++++++
      Ralph Palmer
      Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
      USA
      rpalmer@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Scott
      Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
      To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

      Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like to
      comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?

      Scott
      --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
      > >
      > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against anger,
      > > > I don't know.
      > >
      > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
      can't
      > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
      is
      > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
      > >
      >
      > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
      response.
      > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
      so also.
      > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
      > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
      of
      > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
      that it is
      > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
      that the
      > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
      think about
      > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
      doing it
      > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
      your
      > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
      return
      > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
      behind
      > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
      step is
      > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
      end
      > anywhere.
      >






      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Scott
      Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked... Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp. when memories of the abuse is
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 8, 2006
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        Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
        Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
        when memories of the abuse is triggered.
        Scott

        --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi, Scott -
        >
        > Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
        >
        > Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
        > anger?
        >
        > Ralph
        > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
        > Ralph Palmer
        > Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
        > USA
        > rpalmer@...
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf
        > Of Scott
        > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
        > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
        >
        > Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
        to
        > comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
        >
        > Scott
        > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
        anger,
        > > > > I don't know.
        > > >
        > > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
        > can't
        > > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
        > is
        > > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
        > > >
        > >
        > > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
        > response.
        > > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
        > so also.
        > > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
        > > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
        > of
        > > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
        > that it is
        > > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
        > that the
        > > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
        > think about
        > > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
        > doing it
        > > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
        > your
        > > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
        > return
        > > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
        > behind
        > > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
        > step is
        > > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
        > end
        > > anywhere.
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
      • Jakub Jaroszewski
        Does talking about anger cause a future anger? ... From: Scott To: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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          Does talking about anger cause a future anger?

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
          To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
          Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


          > Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
          > Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
          > when memories of the abuse is triggered.
          > Scott
          >
          > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> Hi, Scott -
          >>
          >> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
          >>
          >> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
          >> anger?
          >>
          >> Ralph
          >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
          >> Ralph Palmer
          >> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
          >> USA
          >> rpalmer@...
          >>
          >>
          >> -----Original Message-----
          >> From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf
          >> Of Scott
          >> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
          >> To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
          >> Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
          >>
          >> Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
          > to
          >> comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
          >>
          >> Scott
          >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
          >> >
          >> > >
          >> > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
          >> > >
          >> > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
          > anger,
          >> > > > I don't know.
          >> > >
          >> > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
          >> can't
          >> > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
          >> is
          >> > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
          >> > >
          >> >
          >> > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
          >> response.
          >> > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
          >> so also.
          >> > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
          >> > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
          >> of
          >> > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
          >> that it is
          >> > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
          >> that the
          >> > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
          >> think about
          >> > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
          >> doing it
          >> > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
          >> your
          >> > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
          >> return
          >> > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
          >> behind
          >> > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
          >> step is
          >> > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
          >> end
          >> > anywhere.
          >> >
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Palmer, Ralph
          Scott - Causal was not a typo. I was asking, not very clearly, if you were speaking of anger causing trauma or trauma causing anger. It sounds like trauma
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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            Scott -

            "Causal" was not a typo. I was asking, not very clearly, if you were
            speaking of anger causing trauma or trauma causing anger. It sounds like
            trauma causing anger. My first reaction was that I didn't remember much
            trauma, or at least that any anger seemed to be directed toward
            inanimate objects or myself; but I think I will look more closely.

            Ralph

            -----Original Message-----
            From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Scott
            Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:46 PM
            To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

            Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
            Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
            when memories of the abuse is triggered.
            Scott

            --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi, Scott -
            >
            > Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
            >
            > Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
            > anger?
            >
            > Ralph
            > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
            > Ralph Palmer
            > Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
            > USA
            > rpalmer@...
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf
            > Of Scott
            > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
            > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
            >
            > Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
            to
            > comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
            >
            > Scott
            > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
            anger,
            > > > > I don't know.
            > > >
            > > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
            > can't
            > > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
            > is
            > > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
            > > >
            > >
            > > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
            > response.
            > > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
            > so also.
            > > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
            > > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
            > of
            > > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
            > that it is
            > > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
            > that the
            > > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
            > think about
            > > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
            > doing it
            > > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
            > your
            > > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
            > return
            > > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
            > behind
            > > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
            > step is
            > > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
            > end
            > > anywhere.
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >






            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Palmer, Ralph
            I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about enlightenment causes a future enlightenment. Ralph ... From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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              I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
              enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.

              Ralph

              -----Original Message-----
              From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Jakub Jaroszewski
              Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
              To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

              Does talking about anger cause a future anger?

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
              To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
              Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


              > Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
              > Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
              > when memories of the abuse is triggered.
              > Scott
              >
              > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Hi, Scott -
              >>
              >> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
              >>
              >> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
              >> anger?
              >>
              >> Ralph
              >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
              >> Ralph Palmer
              >> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
              >> USA
              >> rpalmer@...
              >>
              >>
            • Jakub Jaroszewski
              So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future enlightment? Talking about something is making it stronger in your life. When you think about
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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                So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future enlightment?
                Talking about something is making it stronger in your life.
                When you think about something then you finalely begin to talk about it; and
                when you talk about it then you finaly begin to do it. Aren't you?
                So, I suppose, when you talk and think about anger a lot, then you are in a
                danger of making yourself an angry man.
                Sometimes feelings are so painful that it is very difficult to not get into
                them, but maintaining them is making them firm. The mind get used to them,
                so they become you yourself.
                Doesn't it goes this way? (I suppose :))

                kuba

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...>
                To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 2:37 PM
                Subject: RE: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


                >I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
                > enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.
                >
                > Ralph
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                > Of Jakub Jaroszewski
                > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
                > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                >
                > Does talking about anger cause a future anger?
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
                > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
                > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                >
                >
                >> Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                >> Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
                >> when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                >> Scott
                >>
                >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
                >>>
                >>> Hi, Scott -
                >>>
                >>> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                >>>
                >>> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
                >>> anger?
                >>>
                >>> Ralph
                >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                >>> Ralph Palmer
                >>> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                >>> USA
                >>> rpalmer@...
                >>>
                >>>
                >
              • Scott
                Well, anger seems to offer something (at least initially) to protect from further trauma. Maybe it promises to keep future traumatisers at a distance.
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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                  Well, anger seems to offer something (at least initially) to protect
                  from further trauma. Maybe it promises to keep future traumatisers
                  at a distance. Unfortunately, it also does that to any helpers that
                  might come our way.
                  It also morphs into other more covert things (eg: social withdrawl)
                  I'm not sure enlightenment morphs into anything but enlightenment.

                  Scott

                  --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Jakub Jaroszewski" <jakubjar@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future
                  enlightment?
                  > Talking about something is making it stronger in your life.
                  > When you think about something then you finalely begin to talk
                  about it; and
                  > when you talk about it then you finaly begin to do it. Aren't you?
                  > So, I suppose, when you talk and think about anger a lot, then you
                  are in a
                  > danger of making yourself an angry man.
                  > Sometimes feelings are so painful that it is very difficult to not
                  get into
                  > them, but maintaining them is making them firm. The mind get used
                  to them,
                  > so they become you yourself.
                  > Doesn't it goes this way? (I suppose :))
                  >
                  > kuba
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...>
                  > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 2:37 PM
                  > Subject: RE: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                  >
                  >
                  > >I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
                  > > enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.
                  > >
                  > > Ralph
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf
                  > > Of Jakub Jaroszewski
                  > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
                  > > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                  > >
                  > > Does talking about anger cause a future anger?
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
                  > > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
                  > > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >> Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                  > >> Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems
                  esp.
                  > >> when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                  > >> Scott
                  > >>
                  > >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@>
                  wrote:
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Hi, Scott -
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or
                  trauma -->
                  > >>> anger?
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Ralph
                  > >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                  > >>> Ralph Palmer
                  > >>> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                  > >>> USA
                  > >>> rpalmer@
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >
                  >
                • Richard Horvitz
                  This group has dwindled so much that there aren t enough people to sustain a discussion anymore. I think that much of the reason is that we have become
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 7, 2007
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                    This group has dwindled so much that there aren't enough people to sustain
                    a discussion anymore. I think that much of the reason is that we have
                    become hidden. If you type "uzendo" into google, you will not find this
                    site (I think you have to hyphenate it, "u-zendo"). Probably people who
                    knew this group when it was at mail.win.org assume that it no longer
                    exists. Would it be a good thing for us to come out of hiding somehow?
                  • Palmer, Ralph
                    Greetings - I m sort of stuck. When I try to observe the mental process and experience the present bodily sensations , I find myself adding a layer, and I
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 8, 2007
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                      Greetings -

                      I'm sort of stuck. When I try to "observe the mental process and
                      experience the present bodily sensations", I find myself adding a layer,
                      and I can't figure out a way around it. That is, when I observe the
                      mental process, I find I process it before I'm conscious of it - I make
                      a "picture" by the time I'm observing. And when I try to experience the
                      present bodily sensations, I find I do it through images of the
                      sensations. Is this a problem? If so, is there a way through?

                      Ralph
                      +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                      Ralph Palmer
                      Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                      USA
                      rpalmer@...
                    • Lee Love
                      Hi Ralph, This is a really wonderful insight. You have discovered what most people never know: We live in Plato s cave, and we mistake the shadows of our
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 8, 2007
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                        Hi Ralph,

                        This is a really wonderful insight. You have discovered what
                        most people never know: We live in Plato's cave, and we mistake the
                        shadows of our lives for our lives as they are lived. Everybody forms
                        a "picture" of their actual experience. Because you know the
                        difference between the experience and the "picture" of the experience,
                        it is obvious that you know the experience before the "picture."

                        The important thing to remember, is that the "picture" is just a
                        picture. Let it go and be ready for the next experience.

                        --
                        Lee in Mashiko, Japan
                        Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
                        http://potters.blogspot.com/

                        "To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
                        Henry David Thoreau

                        "Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
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