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Re: anger(CHAT)

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  • Scott
    Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like to comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma? Scott ... can t ... is ... response.
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 22, 2006
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      Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like to
      comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?

      Scott
      --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
      > >
      > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition
      > > > against anger, I don't know.
      > >
      > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
      can't
      > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
      is
      > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
      > >
      >
      > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
      response.
      > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
      so also.
      > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
      > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
      of
      > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
      that it is
      > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
      that the
      > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
      think about
      > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
      doing it
      > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
      your
      > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
      return
      > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
      behind
      > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
      step is
      > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
      end
      > anywhere.
      >
    • Palmer, Ralph
      Hi, Scott - Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while. Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger -- trauma? Or trauma -- anger? Ralph
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 23, 2006
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        Hi, Scott -

        Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.

        Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
        anger?

        Ralph
        +++++++++++++++++++++++++
        Ralph Palmer
        Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
        USA
        rpalmer@...


        -----Original Message-----
        From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Scott
        Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
        To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

        Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like to
        comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?

        Scott
        --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
        > >
        > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against anger,
        > > > I don't know.
        > >
        > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
        can't
        > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
        is
        > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
        > >
        >
        > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
        response.
        > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
        so also.
        > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
        > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
        of
        > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
        that it is
        > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
        that the
        > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
        think about
        > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
        doing it
        > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
        your
        > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
        return
        > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
        behind
        > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
        step is
        > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
        end
        > anywhere.
        >






        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Scott
        Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked... Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp. when memories of the abuse is
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 8, 2006
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          Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
          Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
          when memories of the abuse is triggered.
          Scott

          --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi, Scott -
          >
          > Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
          >
          > Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
          > anger?
          >
          > Ralph
          > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
          > Ralph Palmer
          > Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
          > USA
          > rpalmer@...
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf
          > Of Scott
          > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
          > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
          >
          > Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
          to
          > comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
          >
          > Scott
          > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
          anger,
          > > > > I don't know.
          > > >
          > > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
          > can't
          > > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
          > is
          > > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
          > > >
          > >
          > > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
          > response.
          > > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
          > so also.
          > > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
          > > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
          > of
          > > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
          > that it is
          > > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
          > that the
          > > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
          > think about
          > > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
          > doing it
          > > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
          > your
          > > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
          > return
          > > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
          > behind
          > > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
          > step is
          > > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
          > end
          > > anywhere.
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
        • Jakub Jaroszewski
          Does talking about anger cause a future anger? ... From: Scott To: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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            Does talking about anger cause a future anger?

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
            To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
            Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


            > Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
            > Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
            > when memories of the abuse is triggered.
            > Scott
            >
            > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Hi, Scott -
            >>
            >> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
            >>
            >> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
            >> anger?
            >>
            >> Ralph
            >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
            >> Ralph Palmer
            >> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
            >> USA
            >> rpalmer@...
            >>
            >>
            >> -----Original Message-----
            >> From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf
            >> Of Scott
            >> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
            >> To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
            >> Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
            >>
            >> Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
            > to
            >> comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
            >>
            >> Scott
            >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
            >> >
            >> > >
            >> > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
            >> > >
            >> > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
            > anger,
            >> > > > I don't know.
            >> > >
            >> > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
            >> can't
            >> > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
            >> is
            >> > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
            >> > >
            >> >
            >> > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
            >> response.
            >> > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
            >> so also.
            >> > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
            >> > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
            >> of
            >> > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
            >> that it is
            >> > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
            >> that the
            >> > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
            >> think about
            >> > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
            >> doing it
            >> > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
            >> your
            >> > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
            >> return
            >> > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
            >> behind
            >> > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
            >> step is
            >> > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
            >> end
            >> > anywhere.
            >> >
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Palmer, Ralph
            Scott - Causal was not a typo. I was asking, not very clearly, if you were speaking of anger causing trauma or trauma causing anger. It sounds like trauma
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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              Scott -

              "Causal" was not a typo. I was asking, not very clearly, if you were
              speaking of anger causing trauma or trauma causing anger. It sounds like
              trauma causing anger. My first reaction was that I didn't remember much
              trauma, or at least that any anger seemed to be directed toward
              inanimate objects or myself; but I think I will look more closely.

              Ralph

              -----Original Message-----
              From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Scott
              Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:46 PM
              To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

              Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
              Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
              when memories of the abuse is triggered.
              Scott

              --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi, Scott -
              >
              > Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
              >
              > Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
              > anger?
              >
              > Ralph
              > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
              > Ralph Palmer
              > Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
              > USA
              > rpalmer@...
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf
              > Of Scott
              > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
              > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
              >
              > Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
              to
              > comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
              >
              > Scott
              > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
              anger,
              > > > > I don't know.
              > > >
              > > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
              > can't
              > > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
              > is
              > > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
              > > >
              > >
              > > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
              > response.
              > > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
              > so also.
              > > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
              > > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
              > of
              > > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
              > that it is
              > > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
              > that the
              > > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
              > think about
              > > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
              > doing it
              > > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
              > your
              > > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
              > return
              > > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
              > behind
              > > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
              > step is
              > > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
              > end
              > > anywhere.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >






              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Palmer, Ralph
              I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about enlightenment causes a future enlightenment. Ralph ... From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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                I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
                enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.

                Ralph

                -----Original Message-----
                From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Jakub Jaroszewski
                Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
                To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

                Does talking about anger cause a future anger?

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
                To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
                Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


                > Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                > Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
                > when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                > Scott
                >
                > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Hi, Scott -
                >>
                >> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                >>
                >> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
                >> anger?
                >>
                >> Ralph
                >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                >> Ralph Palmer
                >> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                >> USA
                >> rpalmer@...
                >>
                >>
              • Jakub Jaroszewski
                So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future enlightment? Talking about something is making it stronger in your life. When you think about
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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                  So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future enlightment?
                  Talking about something is making it stronger in your life.
                  When you think about something then you finalely begin to talk about it; and
                  when you talk about it then you finaly begin to do it. Aren't you?
                  So, I suppose, when you talk and think about anger a lot, then you are in a
                  danger of making yourself an angry man.
                  Sometimes feelings are so painful that it is very difficult to not get into
                  them, but maintaining them is making them firm. The mind get used to them,
                  so they become you yourself.
                  Doesn't it goes this way? (I suppose :))

                  kuba

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...>
                  To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 2:37 PM
                  Subject: RE: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


                  >I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
                  > enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.
                  >
                  > Ralph
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  > Of Jakub Jaroszewski
                  > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
                  > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                  >
                  > Does talking about anger cause a future anger?
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
                  > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
                  > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                  >
                  >
                  >> Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                  >> Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
                  >> when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                  >> Scott
                  >>
                  >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
                  >>>
                  >>> Hi, Scott -
                  >>>
                  >>> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                  >>>
                  >>> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
                  >>> anger?
                  >>>
                  >>> Ralph
                  >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                  >>> Ralph Palmer
                  >>> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                  >>> USA
                  >>> rpalmer@...
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >
                • Scott
                  Well, anger seems to offer something (at least initially) to protect from further trauma. Maybe it promises to keep future traumatisers at a distance.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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                    Well, anger seems to offer something (at least initially) to protect
                    from further trauma. Maybe it promises to keep future traumatisers
                    at a distance. Unfortunately, it also does that to any helpers that
                    might come our way.
                    It also morphs into other more covert things (eg: social withdrawl)
                    I'm not sure enlightenment morphs into anything but enlightenment.

                    Scott

                    --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Jakub Jaroszewski" <jakubjar@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future
                    enlightment?
                    > Talking about something is making it stronger in your life.
                    > When you think about something then you finalely begin to talk
                    about it; and
                    > when you talk about it then you finaly begin to do it. Aren't you?
                    > So, I suppose, when you talk and think about anger a lot, then you
                    are in a
                    > danger of making yourself an angry man.
                    > Sometimes feelings are so painful that it is very difficult to not
                    get into
                    > them, but maintaining them is making them firm. The mind get used
                    to them,
                    > so they become you yourself.
                    > Doesn't it goes this way? (I suppose :))
                    >
                    > kuba
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...>
                    > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 2:37 PM
                    > Subject: RE: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                    >
                    >
                    > >I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
                    > > enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.
                    > >
                    > > Ralph
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf
                    > > Of Jakub Jaroszewski
                    > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
                    > > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                    > >
                    > > Does talking about anger cause a future anger?
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
                    > > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
                    > > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >> Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                    > >> Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems
                    esp.
                    > >> when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                    > >> Scott
                    > >>
                    > >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@>
                    wrote:
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Hi, Scott -
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or
                    trauma -->
                    > >>> anger?
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Ralph
                    > >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                    > >>> Ralph Palmer
                    > >>> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                    > >>> USA
                    > >>> rpalmer@
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >
                    >
                  • Richard Horvitz
                    This group has dwindled so much that there aren t enough people to sustain a discussion anymore. I think that much of the reason is that we have become
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 7, 2007
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                      This group has dwindled so much that there aren't enough people to sustain
                      a discussion anymore. I think that much of the reason is that we have
                      become hidden. If you type "uzendo" into google, you will not find this
                      site (I think you have to hyphenate it, "u-zendo"). Probably people who
                      knew this group when it was at mail.win.org assume that it no longer
                      exists. Would it be a good thing for us to come out of hiding somehow?
                    • Palmer, Ralph
                      Greetings - I m sort of stuck. When I try to observe the mental process and experience the present bodily sensations , I find myself adding a layer, and I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 8, 2007
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                        Greetings -

                        I'm sort of stuck. When I try to "observe the mental process and
                        experience the present bodily sensations", I find myself adding a layer,
                        and I can't figure out a way around it. That is, when I observe the
                        mental process, I find I process it before I'm conscious of it - I make
                        a "picture" by the time I'm observing. And when I try to experience the
                        present bodily sensations, I find I do it through images of the
                        sensations. Is this a problem? If so, is there a way through?

                        Ralph
                        +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                        Ralph Palmer
                        Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                        USA
                        rpalmer@...
                      • Lee Love
                        Hi Ralph, This is a really wonderful insight. You have discovered what most people never know: We live in Plato s cave, and we mistake the shadows of our
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 8, 2007
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                          Hi Ralph,

                          This is a really wonderful insight. You have discovered what
                          most people never know: We live in Plato's cave, and we mistake the
                          shadows of our lives for our lives as they are lived. Everybody forms
                          a "picture" of their actual experience. Because you know the
                          difference between the experience and the "picture" of the experience,
                          it is obvious that you know the experience before the "picture."

                          The important thing to remember, is that the "picture" is just a
                          picture. Let it go and be ready for the next experience.

                          --
                          Lee in Mashiko, Japan
                          Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
                          http://potters.blogspot.com/

                          "To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
                          Henry David Thoreau

                          "Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
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