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anger(CHAT)

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  • Richard Horvitz
    Many of the big religions have all kinds of terrible offenses one can commit against their gods, earning you a place in hell. It is a pity that anger isn t at
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 12, 2006
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      Many of the big religions have all kinds of terrible offenses one can
      commit against their gods, earning you a place in hell. It is a pity that
      anger isn't at the top (or anywhere) on these lists... maybe that would
      put the brakes on some of the terrible violence in the world today. I
      saw the film Munich this evening. Most disturbing.
    • Walt Taylor
      Anger isn t a terrible offense. ... Walt Taylor Creative Director Stratum 757.626.0222 walt.taylor@stratum.net
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 13, 2006
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        Anger isn't a terrible offense.

        On Aug 13, 2006, at 1:57 AM, Richard Horvitz wrote:

        Many of the big religions have all kinds of terrible offenses one can
        commit against their gods, earning you a place in hell. It is a pity that
        anger isn't at the top (or anywhere) on these lists... maybe that would
        put the brakes on some of the terrible violence in the world today. I
        saw the film Munich this evening. Most disturbing.


        Walt Taylor
        Creative Director
        Stratum
        757.626.0222




      • Pat Stacy
        ... From: Richard Horvitz To: zendo Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 10:57 PM Subject: [U-Zendo] anger(CHAT) Many of the big religions have all kinds of
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 13, 2006
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          ----- Original Message -----
          To: zendo
          Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 10:57 PM
          Subject: [U-Zendo] anger(CHAT)

          Many of the big religions have all kinds of terrible offenses one can
          commit against their gods, earning you a place in hell. It is a pity that
          anger isn't at the top (or anywhere) on these lists... maybe that would put the brakes on some of the terrible violence in the world today.

           

          In your experience, has any religious prohibition against anything had the effect of actually preventing that behavior?  Sometime the same religion that preaches love promotes hatred. Unfortunately these are horns on the same goat, and that goat is us. If we tried to be more loving or to not feel angry, would that make an improvement in our behavior?

          Buddhism directs our attention to the causes of both love and hatred, and tells us these causes arise in our mind and when we comprehend the process, there is a chance for them not to arise.

           

          Richard: I saw the film Munich this evening. Most disturbing.

           

          Richard, do you want to talk about what was happening to you while you watched the movie, "Munich"? Did you see it as a clash between two religions that both say they promote love of neighbor? Does the conflict have economic roots? Do you think that religious prohibitions against anger would have changed events?

          Pat



        • Richard Horvitz
          I think that anger is, commonly, thought of as something that is fine and justifiable. People feel righteous when they feel angry. I believe that even Jesus
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 13, 2006
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            I think that anger is, commonly, thought of as something that is fine and
            justifiable. People feel righteous when they feel angry. I believe that
            even Jesus got angry. People are taught to express their anger
            rather than "repressing" it, as if there were the only
            alternatives! Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition
            against anger, I don't know. But it almost seems that anger is promoted
            as much as love by religions. God was always flying into a rage even.

            "He who holds back rising anger like a rolling chariot, him I call a real
            driver; other people are but holding the reins." - Buddha, Dhammapada
          • Walt Taylor
            ... Maybe we re confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You can t ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do is exercise control
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 13, 2006
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              On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:

              Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition
              against anger, I don't know.

              Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You can't ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do is exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.


            • Weasel Tracks
              ... Hi, Lee! Hope life is good for you. I have a problem with your last sentence. Perhaps you wrote it quickly and it doesn t say quite what you mean. We share
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 14, 2006
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                >I missed Richard's original post. (thanks for quoting Walt!)
                >
                > We all have our "Gods." Many modern people simply don't name
                >them. You can trace the problems that the Islamic people have with us
                >(actually, the entire 3rd world), back to colonialism and our unspoken
                >God: Capitalism/materialism. We simply can't see our paradigm as
                >being the same as everybody elses, and we rely on them though they are real.

                Hi, Lee! Hope life is good for you.

                I have a problem with your last sentence. Perhaps you wrote it
                quickly and it doesn't say quite what you mean.

                We share the same human nature. Given the same circumstances, people
                tend to act in many of the same ways.

                But our paradigms, parts of our culture, vary greatly and cause a
                large deviation in attitude among the various populations on earth. A
                Tibetan nomad and one from Afghanistan may react quite differently in
                the same social situation.

                However, I quite agree with you about much of the anger of the Muslim
                world against the West being due to colonial and neocolonial
                policies. These are seen within the background of the Crusades and
                the especially nasty and merciless warfare perpetrated by the knights
                of Christian Europe, of which the West is the cultural descendant.

                That's overly simple, though. Muslim history is complex, as is that
                of our own religious history. Muslims perceive (correctly, I believe)
                that American foreign policy is largely in the hands of Christian
                fundamentalists. We have, among other currents of influence, a
                three-way interaction between the fundamentalists of Islam, Judaism,
                and Christianity.

                I would suggest that anyone interested in the roots of this
                interaction -- vitally important to our current situation -- to read
                Karen Armstrong's excellent book, *The Battle for God*. The subject
                is too complicated to do much more than recommend the book, though
                fascinating enough to keep one reading through a lot of history.

                Two points I will mention:
                Fundamentalism is not the same as religious conservatism, the
                tendency of religions to keep old forms, attitudes, and beliefs. It's
                actually a relatively modern reaction to Modernism (and Armstrong
                does a great job of tracing the formation of that).
                Before the actual formation of the state of Israel, orthodox Jews
                were very much against the idea of a Jewish state in the Holy Land;
                the Zionists were mostly secular Jews. I certainly didn't know that
                before. This fact is typical of the many surprises I got counter to
                the assumptions I have absorbed from the common sulture here in
                America.

                I think Richard raised a good point. Although all the major relgions
                praise mercy and forbearance, I can't think of any but Buddhism that
                consider anger to be a fundamental problem to address. The three
                kleshas that obscure the clarity of original mind are greed, anger,
                and ignorance. It is understood by Buddhists that dealing with their
                own anger is of vital importance. In Judaism and Islam, unjust anger
                towards others is considered sinful, but anger on behalf of God is
                encouraged. Christianity is supposed to be based on mercy, but it has
                its share of righteous anger as well. It appears to be a fundamental
                tendency of monotheism to believe that, just as there is only one
                God, there is only one correct way to do his service. This correct
                way, of course, is one's own; all others are at best deluded, at
                worst, in the service of the devil.

                Buddhism does not have a monopoly on valid spiritual development.
                What I know of that in the monotheisms does address anger, but the
                only people that it seems to affect are the professionals and the
                very devout. Buddhists, also, are not free from anger and greed, and
                the violence they spawn, but I do think I detect a distinct
                difference in general attitude between Buddhists and monotheists in
                situations that tend toward the stimulation of anger.

                ---Weasel Tracks
              • Lee Love
                I missed Richard s original post. (thanks for quoting Walt!) We all have our Gods. Many modern people simply don t name them. You can trace the
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 14, 2006
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                  I missed Richard's original post. (thanks for quoting Walt!)

                  We all have our "Gods." Many modern people simply don't name
                  them. You can trace the problems that the Islamic people have with us
                  (actually, the entire 3rd world), back to colonialism and our unspoken
                  God: Capitalism/materialism. We simply can't see our paradigm as
                  being the same as everybody elses, and we rely on them though they are real.

                  Lee in Mashiko, Japan
                • Lee Love
                  ... Howdy! Our paradigm is the same, in that it is based on assumptions like every other paradigm. The details really don t matter. Only that we hold them as
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 14, 2006
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                    On 8/14/2006 4:41:38 AM, Weasel Tracks (weaseltrax@...) wrote:

                    > Hi, Lee! Hope life is good for you.
                    >
                    > I have a problem with your last sentence. Perhaps you wrote it
                    > quickly and it doesn't
                    > say quite what you mean.

                    Howdy!

                    Our paradigm is the same, in that it is based on assumptions like
                    every other paradigm. The details really don't matter. Only that we
                    hold them as truth without questioning them. We think the scientific
                    method protects us from false assumptions, but it doesn't do so
                    automatically/magically. It takes effort. Ideally, in science, we
                    try to separate our feelings from our objective examinations of the
                    world. This parallels Buddhist views on anger. But as Katagiri used
                    to say, A fish does not know he swims in the sea. A bird does not
                    know he flies in the sky. Only by knowing that our thoughts are
                    probably mistaken, can we make allowances for them.

                    Also, Buddhism has no corner on dealing with anger. All of the
                    mystical traditions deal with it in one way or the other. Most
                    orthodoxies, even in Buddhism forget them. My wife Jean was talking to
                    her Japanese students about what the local Buddhist Priest charges for a
                    funeral. The base funeral is about $10,000.00 $5,000.00 if you are
                    poor. Much more if you are wealthy.

                    Here is an example from Sufi Islam:

                    Swallow Your Anger Then Digest It
                    Excerpts from the book Ocean of Unity
                    Sheik Nazim Al-Qubrusi

                    "One of the most harmful weeds, the most inimical to our spiritual
                    growth is the anger generated by the vanity of our egos. When anger
                    rages it engulfs the light of faith, transforming in into fire. The
                    light of Faith is the pure light of God, but when it is transformed into
                    fire it no longer illumines, it burns."

                    http://www.uksufi.co.uk/Newcomers/swallow_your_anger.htm

                    The seed of war comes from the moment we create us and them. If
                    we are only critical of THEM, we fire the first gun. It is important
                    to see these things as OUR human problem. We are all capable of the
                    same mistakes. We make them all the time.


                    'I have lived on the very brink of insanity,
                    demanding to know Why?
                    hammering on the door.
                    It opens.
                    I was knocking from the inside!'
                    --Rumi


                    Lee in Mashiko, Japan
                  • Richard Horvitz
                    ... I don t think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned response. If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do so also. Won t
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 15, 2006
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                      On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:

                      >
                      > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
                      >
                      > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition
                      > > against anger, I don't know.
                      >
                      > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You can't
                      > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do is
                      > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
                      >

                      I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned response.
                      If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do so also.
                      Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
                      From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain of
                      events. First you see someone doing something, then you think that it is
                      contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think that the
                      person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you think about
                      how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are doing it
                      again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under your
                      breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in return
                      (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up behind
                      them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last step is
                      clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can end
                      anywhere.
                    • Walt Taylor
                      I take your point, Richard, but maybe I haven t been as clear as I could. I don t believe that the exercise of control is limited to willing yourself to drop
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 15, 2006
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                        I take your point, Richard, but maybe I haven't been as clear as I could. I don't believe that the exercise of control is limited to willing yourself to drop the knife at the last minute. But you can't really prohibit the arising of an emotion. How you handle it after it arises is what matters, but even then, someone else can't prohibit your ears turning red, for example. This is all sounding kind of silly at the moment. I think I originally meant to say that IMO the emotion of anger is not necessarily the root cause of all evil. Bush went into Iraq not because his ears were turning red, but out of cold calculation. 

                        On Aug 15, 2006, at 11:34 AM, Richard Horvitz wrote:



                        On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:

                        >
                        > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
                        >
                        > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition
                        > > against anger, I don't know.
                        >
                        > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You can't
                        > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do is
                        > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
                        >

                        I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned response.
                        If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do so also.
                        Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
                        >From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain of
                        events. First you see someone doing something, then you think that it is
                        contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think that the
                        person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you think about
                        how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are doing it
                        again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under your
                        breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in return
                        (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up behind
                        them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last step is
                        clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can end
                        anywhere.


                        Walt Taylor
                        Creative Director
                        Stratum
                        757.626.0222




                      • Palmer, Ralph
                        Hi - I have a request. I think the author and title of a book about [violence? militarism?] and god was mentioned as part of this thread, or at least at some
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 15, 2006
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                          Hi -
                           
                          I have a request. I think the author and title of a book about [violence? militarism?] and god was mentioned as part of this thread, or at least at some point in the last few days on this list. I seem to have deleted the message that mentioned the book, and I'd like to know what it was. Can anyone help me out? Or at least let me know if I was imagining it?
                           
                          Thanks,
                           
                          Ralph

                          +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                          Ralph Palmer
                          Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                          USA
                          rpalmer@...

                        • Pat Stacy
                          ... From: Palmer, Ralph To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] anger(CHAT) Hi - I have a request. I think
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 15, 2006
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:06 AM
                            Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] anger(CHAT)

                            Hi -
                             
                            I have a request. I think the author and title of a book about [violence? militarism?] and god was mentioned as part of this thread, or at least at some point in the last few days on this list. I seem to have deleted the message that mentioned the book, and I'd like to know what it was. Can anyone help me out? Or at least let me know if I was imagining it?
                             
                            Lee Love said:  Here is an example from Sufi Islam:

                            Swallow Your Anger Then Digest It
                            Excerpts from the book Ocean of Unity
                            Sheik Nazim Al-Qubrusi

                             
                            .

                          • Pat Stacy
                            Walt said: But you can t really prohibit the arising of an emotion. ... There is a prohibition against anger in Buddhism. It is because, like alcohol and
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 15, 2006
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                              Walt said:

                              But you can't really prohibit the arising of an emotion.

                              -----------

                              There is a prohibition against anger in Buddhism. It is because, like alcohol and drugs, it clouds the mind. Righteous anger acts on the nervous system exactly like a drug. The ability to reflect and act compassionately is lost.

                              When anger is examined we always find fear at its base. This is a personal fear, a fear of loss of some kind. With the practice of this path we can become aware of how this reaction arises in our mind. This awareness automatically changes or prevents the reaction from happening. Our attention is switched from some outer event or person to how the reaction is happening now, and we lose interest in the thing we thought was the cause.

                               

                              Walt:

                              I think I originally meant to say that IMO the emotion of anger is not necessarily the root cause of all evil. 

                              --------- 

                              I wonder if we could consider even for a moment that there is no evil?

                              Walt:

                              Bush went into Iraq not because his ears were turning red, but out of cold calculation. 

                              ---------- 

                              But even that cold calculation was the result of conditioning. And the conditions that made it possible to adopt the view that bombing Iraq would help anything, arose in his childhood. Introspection anytime in the years that followed could have been a benifit to all the world. Anger was not what caused the bombing of Iraq; it was fear. Anger was what clouded the minds of both sides, and is the reason Buddhism has a prohibition against it.

                              Walt, your comment about dropping the knife at the last moment make me remember an old zen story I'll try to reproduce from memory.

                              Samurai war lords were fighting over a temple. After they had killed all the monks, one warrior descended on the zendo where the abbot, the only one left alive, was sitting in meditation. He walked up to the master, bloody armor clanking, and said: "What's the matter with you? Don't you know that before you stands a man who can run you through with one thrust of this sword?" To which the master answered, “What's the matter with you? Don't you know that before you sits a man who can be run through with one thrust?” In that moment the Samurai became the student of that master. Anger can stop anywhere on its continuum if it encounters great clarity.

                               

                              Pat


                              .

                            • Scott
                              Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like to comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma? Scott ... can t ... is ... response.
                              Message 14 of 24 , Oct 22, 2006
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                                Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like to
                                comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?

                                Scott
                                --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition
                                > > > against anger, I don't know.
                                > >
                                > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
                                can't
                                > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
                                is
                                > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
                                > >
                                >
                                > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
                                response.
                                > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
                                so also.
                                > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
                                > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
                                of
                                > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
                                that it is
                                > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
                                that the
                                > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
                                think about
                                > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
                                doing it
                                > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
                                your
                                > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
                                return
                                > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
                                behind
                                > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
                                step is
                                > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
                                end
                                > anywhere.
                                >
                              • Palmer, Ralph
                                Hi, Scott - Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while. Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger -- trauma? Or trauma -- anger? Ralph
                                Message 15 of 24 , Oct 23, 2006
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                                  Hi, Scott -

                                  Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.

                                  Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
                                  anger?

                                  Ralph
                                  +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                  Ralph Palmer
                                  Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                                  USA
                                  rpalmer@...


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  Of Scott
                                  Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
                                  To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

                                  Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like to
                                  comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?

                                  Scott
                                  --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against anger,
                                  > > > I don't know.
                                  > >
                                  > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
                                  can't
                                  > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
                                  is
                                  > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
                                  response.
                                  > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
                                  so also.
                                  > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
                                  > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
                                  of
                                  > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
                                  that it is
                                  > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
                                  that the
                                  > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
                                  think about
                                  > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
                                  doing it
                                  > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
                                  your
                                  > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
                                  return
                                  > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
                                  behind
                                  > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
                                  step is
                                  > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
                                  end
                                  > anywhere.
                                  >






                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Scott
                                  Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked... Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp. when memories of the abuse is
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Nov 8, 2006
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                                    Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                                    Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
                                    when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                                    Scott

                                    --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi, Scott -
                                    >
                                    > Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                                    >
                                    > Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
                                    > anger?
                                    >
                                    > Ralph
                                    > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                    > Ralph Palmer
                                    > Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                                    > USA
                                    > rpalmer@...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf
                                    > Of Scott
                                    > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
                                    > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                                    >
                                    > Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
                                    to
                                    > comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
                                    >
                                    > Scott
                                    > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
                                    anger,
                                    > > > > I don't know.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
                                    > can't
                                    > > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
                                    > is
                                    > > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
                                    > response.
                                    > > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
                                    > so also.
                                    > > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
                                    > > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
                                    > of
                                    > > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
                                    > that it is
                                    > > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
                                    > that the
                                    > > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
                                    > think about
                                    > > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
                                    > doing it
                                    > > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
                                    > your
                                    > > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
                                    > return
                                    > > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
                                    > behind
                                    > > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
                                    > step is
                                    > > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
                                    > end
                                    > > anywhere.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                  • Jakub Jaroszewski
                                    Does talking about anger cause a future anger? ... From: Scott To: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                      Does talking about anger cause a future anger?

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
                                      To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
                                      Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


                                      > Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                                      > Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
                                      > when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                                      > Scott
                                      >
                                      > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> Hi, Scott -
                                      >>
                                      >> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                                      >>
                                      >> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
                                      >> anger?
                                      >>
                                      >> Ralph
                                      >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                      >> Ralph Palmer
                                      >> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                                      >> USA
                                      >> rpalmer@...
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> -----Original Message-----
                                      >> From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      > Behalf
                                      >> Of Scott
                                      >> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
                                      >> To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                                      >> Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                                      >>
                                      >> Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
                                      > to
                                      >> comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
                                      >>
                                      >> Scott
                                      >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
                                      >> >
                                      >> > >
                                      >> > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
                                      >> > >
                                      >> > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
                                      > anger,
                                      >> > > > I don't know.
                                      >> > >
                                      >> > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
                                      >> can't
                                      >> > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
                                      >> is
                                      >> > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
                                      >> > >
                                      >> >
                                      >> > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
                                      >> response.
                                      >> > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
                                      >> so also.
                                      >> > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
                                      >> > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
                                      >> of
                                      >> > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
                                      >> that it is
                                      >> > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
                                      >> that the
                                      >> > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
                                      >> think about
                                      >> > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
                                      >> doing it
                                      >> > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
                                      >> your
                                      >> > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
                                      >> return
                                      >> > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
                                      >> behind
                                      >> > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
                                      >> step is
                                      >> > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
                                      >> end
                                      >> > anywhere.
                                      >> >
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Palmer, Ralph
                                      Scott - Causal was not a typo. I was asking, not very clearly, if you were speaking of anger causing trauma or trauma causing anger. It sounds like trauma
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                        Scott -

                                        "Causal" was not a typo. I was asking, not very clearly, if you were
                                        speaking of anger causing trauma or trauma causing anger. It sounds like
                                        trauma causing anger. My first reaction was that I didn't remember much
                                        trauma, or at least that any anger seemed to be directed toward
                                        inanimate objects or myself; but I think I will look more closely.

                                        Ralph

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                        Of Scott
                                        Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:46 PM
                                        To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

                                        Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                                        Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
                                        when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                                        Scott

                                        --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi, Scott -
                                        >
                                        > Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                                        >
                                        > Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
                                        > anger?
                                        >
                                        > Ralph
                                        > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                        > Ralph Palmer
                                        > Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                                        > USA
                                        > rpalmer@...
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf
                                        > Of Scott
                                        > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
                                        > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                                        >
                                        > Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
                                        to
                                        > comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
                                        >
                                        > Scott
                                        > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
                                        anger,
                                        > > > > I don't know.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
                                        > can't
                                        > > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
                                        > is
                                        > > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
                                        > response.
                                        > > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
                                        > so also.
                                        > > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
                                        > > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
                                        > of
                                        > > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
                                        > that it is
                                        > > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
                                        > that the
                                        > > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
                                        > think about
                                        > > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
                                        > doing it
                                        > > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
                                        > your
                                        > > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
                                        > return
                                        > > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
                                        > behind
                                        > > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
                                        > step is
                                        > > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
                                        > end
                                        > > anywhere.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >






                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • Palmer, Ralph
                                        I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about enlightenment causes a future enlightenment. Ralph ... From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                          I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
                                          enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.

                                          Ralph

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                          Of Jakub Jaroszewski
                                          Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
                                          To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

                                          Does talking about anger cause a future anger?

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
                                          To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
                                          Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


                                          > Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                                          > Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
                                          > when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                                          > Scott
                                          >
                                          > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >> Hi, Scott -
                                          >>
                                          >> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                                          >>
                                          >> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
                                          >> anger?
                                          >>
                                          >> Ralph
                                          >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                          >> Ralph Palmer
                                          >> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                                          >> USA
                                          >> rpalmer@...
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                        • Jakub Jaroszewski
                                          So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future enlightment? Talking about something is making it stronger in your life. When you think about
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                            So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future enlightment?
                                            Talking about something is making it stronger in your life.
                                            When you think about something then you finalely begin to talk about it; and
                                            when you talk about it then you finaly begin to do it. Aren't you?
                                            So, I suppose, when you talk and think about anger a lot, then you are in a
                                            danger of making yourself an angry man.
                                            Sometimes feelings are so painful that it is very difficult to not get into
                                            them, but maintaining them is making them firm. The mind get used to them,
                                            so they become you yourself.
                                            Doesn't it goes this way? (I suppose :))

                                            kuba

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...>
                                            To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 2:37 PM
                                            Subject: RE: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


                                            >I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
                                            > enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.
                                            >
                                            > Ralph
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                            > Of Jakub Jaroszewski
                                            > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
                                            > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                                            >
                                            > Does talking about anger cause a future anger?
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
                                            > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
                                            > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                                            >> Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
                                            >> when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                                            >> Scott
                                            >>
                                            >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Hi, Scott -
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
                                            >>> anger?
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Ralph
                                            >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                            >>> Ralph Palmer
                                            >>> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                                            >>> USA
                                            >>> rpalmer@...
                                            >>>
                                            >>>
                                            >
                                          • Scott
                                            Well, anger seems to offer something (at least initially) to protect from further trauma. Maybe it promises to keep future traumatisers at a distance.
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                              Well, anger seems to offer something (at least initially) to protect
                                              from further trauma. Maybe it promises to keep future traumatisers
                                              at a distance. Unfortunately, it also does that to any helpers that
                                              might come our way.
                                              It also morphs into other more covert things (eg: social withdrawl)
                                              I'm not sure enlightenment morphs into anything but enlightenment.

                                              Scott

                                              --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Jakub Jaroszewski" <jakubjar@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future
                                              enlightment?
                                              > Talking about something is making it stronger in your life.
                                              > When you think about something then you finalely begin to talk
                                              about it; and
                                              > when you talk about it then you finaly begin to do it. Aren't you?
                                              > So, I suppose, when you talk and think about anger a lot, then you
                                              are in a
                                              > danger of making yourself an angry man.
                                              > Sometimes feelings are so painful that it is very difficult to not
                                              get into
                                              > them, but maintaining them is making them firm. The mind get used
                                              to them,
                                              > so they become you yourself.
                                              > Doesn't it goes this way? (I suppose :))
                                              >
                                              > kuba
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...>
                                              > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 2:37 PM
                                              > Subject: RE: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
                                              > > enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.
                                              > >
                                              > > Ralph
                                              > >
                                              > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com]
                                              On Behalf
                                              > > Of Jakub Jaroszewski
                                              > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
                                              > > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                                              > >
                                              > > Does talking about anger cause a future anger?
                                              > >
                                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
                                              > > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
                                              > > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >> Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                                              > >> Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems
                                              esp.
                                              > >> when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                                              > >> Scott
                                              > >>
                                              > >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@>
                                              wrote:
                                              > >>>
                                              > >>> Hi, Scott -
                                              > >>>
                                              > >>> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                                              > >>>
                                              > >>> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or
                                              trauma -->
                                              > >>> anger?
                                              > >>>
                                              > >>> Ralph
                                              > >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                              > >>> Ralph Palmer
                                              > >>> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                                              > >>> USA
                                              > >>> rpalmer@
                                              > >>>
                                              > >>>
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Richard Horvitz
                                              This group has dwindled so much that there aren t enough people to sustain a discussion anymore. I think that much of the reason is that we have become
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Mar 7 4:16 PM
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                                                This group has dwindled so much that there aren't enough people to sustain
                                                a discussion anymore. I think that much of the reason is that we have
                                                become hidden. If you type "uzendo" into google, you will not find this
                                                site (I think you have to hyphenate it, "u-zendo"). Probably people who
                                                knew this group when it was at mail.win.org assume that it no longer
                                                exists. Would it be a good thing for us to come out of hiding somehow?
                                              • Palmer, Ralph
                                                Greetings - I m sort of stuck. When I try to observe the mental process and experience the present bodily sensations , I find myself adding a layer, and I
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Mar 8 4:48 AM
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                                                  Greetings -

                                                  I'm sort of stuck. When I try to "observe the mental process and
                                                  experience the present bodily sensations", I find myself adding a layer,
                                                  and I can't figure out a way around it. That is, when I observe the
                                                  mental process, I find I process it before I'm conscious of it - I make
                                                  a "picture" by the time I'm observing. And when I try to experience the
                                                  present bodily sensations, I find I do it through images of the
                                                  sensations. Is this a problem? If so, is there a way through?

                                                  Ralph
                                                  +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                                  Ralph Palmer
                                                  Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                                                  USA
                                                  rpalmer@...
                                                • Lee Love
                                                  Hi Ralph, This is a really wonderful insight. You have discovered what most people never know: We live in Plato s cave, and we mistake the shadows of our
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Mar 8 5:18 AM
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                                                    Hi Ralph,

                                                    This is a really wonderful insight. You have discovered what
                                                    most people never know: We live in Plato's cave, and we mistake the
                                                    shadows of our lives for our lives as they are lived. Everybody forms
                                                    a "picture" of their actual experience. Because you know the
                                                    difference between the experience and the "picture" of the experience,
                                                    it is obvious that you know the experience before the "picture."

                                                    The important thing to remember, is that the "picture" is just a
                                                    picture. Let it go and be ready for the next experience.

                                                    --
                                                    Lee in Mashiko, Japan
                                                    Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
                                                    http://potters.blogspot.com/

                                                    "To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
                                                    Henry David Thoreau

                                                    "Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
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