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Proposed PE to Santa Barbara line

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  • David Coscia
    Sorry for any cross-posting. Recently have been doing some research into PE and components between 1890 and 1911. On several occasions, Clark and Sherman (Los
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 1, 2004
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      Sorry for any cross-posting.

      Recently have been doing some research into PE and components between 1890
      and 1911. On several occasions, Clark and Sherman (Los Angeles Pacific)
      and Huntington incorporate companies, and list route to Santa Barbara as a
      goal. All well and good so far since Huntington wanted an empire. What
      follows is a timeline:
      1906 E.H. Harriman purchased 51% of LAP, becomes partner with
      Clark/Sherman (through Epes Randolph)
      1907 Santa Monica & Northern incorporated, wants to build north through
      San Fernando Valley then west to ocean
      1907 LAP incorporates again (with SM&N), again to build line north to Valley
      1907 Huntington tiring of battles, easier to build utilities, his mansion,
      and collect art and books (Crump, Big Red Cars)
      1911 Great Merger, Harriman (SP) ends interurban threat, Huntington gets LARy
      1911 San Fernando Valley line is built to Van Nuys
      1911 Great Merger, Article 8, Section 9, PE incorporation of 1911, Line to
      be built to Santa Barbara

      Huntington had land in San Fernando Valley (member of Northridge and Van
      Nuys development groups), but no longer interested in building interurban
      empire. And line never went to Northridge anyways, located good two miles
      away.

      Questions:
      1. If Huntington not pushing for Santa Barbara, and Harriman (SP) sure
      wouldnt want it, who is pushing it?
      2. Suspect it is just a promotion scheme, anyone have evidence to prove it?

      Thanks for any help you can provide with these questions and other insights
      you may provide.

      regards,
      David
    • superdave_frevele
      Before anything else I want to commend David for his fantastic SP website. How I d hate to have anything ever happen it or Richard Percy s. Great work, David!
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 3, 2004
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        Before anything else I want to commend
        David for his fantastic SP website. How
        I'd hate to have anything ever happen it
        or Richard Percy's. Great work, David!

        http://home.socal.rr.com/coscia/

        http://espee.railfan.net/espee.html

        While the 1911 Pacific Electric "Great Merger" didn't combine the
        local LARY. yellow car lines it did incorporate nearly everything
        else: the PE, LAIU, LA&R, R&A, SBVT, Redlands Central, San Bernardino
        Inter-Urban and LAP. That same section of the 1911 PE Articles of
        Incorporation and Consolidation also cited other extensions, among
        them: the Monrovia Line from Glendora to San Bernardino; the Covina
        Line via Pomona to Riverside; a line from Covina to Long Beach; La
        Habra Line extensions to Santa Ana and another via Santa Ana Canyon
        to Riverside; and to San Diego from Santa Ana. Huntington bought
        land in the Palos Verdes peninsula for a line between Redondo Beach
        and San Pedro.

        Note that Huntington reached other objectives specified in the 1901
        Articles such as Monrovia, Pomona, Whittier, Santa Ana if not quite
        all (San Bernardino, Redlands, Riverside, and Santa Barbara.)
      • superdave_frevele
        ... I promise you Henry E. Huntington was definitely (and sincerely) the one pushing for Santa Barbara, both in the 1911 and 1901 Articles of Incorporation
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 3, 2004
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          David Coscia <dacoscia@s...> wrote:
          > Clark and Sherman (Los Angeles Pacific)
          > and Huntington incorporate companies,
          > and list route to Santa Barbara as a goal.
          >
          > If Huntington not pushing for Santa Barbara,
          > and Harriman (SP) sure wouldnt want it, who
          > is pushing it?

          I promise you Henry E. Huntington was definitely (and sincerely) the
          one pushing for Santa Barbara, both in the 1911 and 1901 Articles of
          Incorporation where his proposed line of 115 miles was the most
          ambitious proposal. Those 1901 PE Articles of Incorporation are noted
          few pages earlier in Spencer Crump's Ride the Big Red Cars than the
          1911 Articles.

          Huntington was powerful, extremely wealthy, and keen to build himself
          his own empire. He was outclassed in these three things by E. H.
          Harriman. Long a Wall Street mogul, Harriman's ambition dwarfed even
          his fortune. It speak volumes that Harriman could rope the Southern
          Pacific away from Huntington and the other Big Four heirs when
          Huntington's uncle Collis, the SP baron, died.

          Crump says Huntington bought trolley networks in Stockton, Fresno,
          and Santa Clara County with the intent to link them with an electric
          line between Los Angeles and San Francisco. Huntington also started
          electric generating facilities outside Fresno. Having much preferred
          life and business interests in California after working for his uncle
          Collis, in West Virginia and Arizona. He wasn't trying to con anyone
          with his plans to link up Santa Barbara. Or San Diego or San
          Francisco. He just didn't have the moxie to pull it off.

          Unfortunately he was up against a much bigger fish, a competitor in
          the SP and Harriman that would thwart him. I would read a lot into
          the May 1903 bidding war to $110,000 between proxies of Huntington
          and E. H. Harriman for a trolley car franchise on Sixth St. in LA
          that started at $2500.

          http://www.erha.org/laiuh.htm

          Remember that Huntington lost the interests of Sherman and Clark to
          Harriman, then lost the interests of his closer partners Hellman,
          Borel, and D'Guigne, again to Harriman. I knew a fine man employed at
          the Huntington Library, Edwin Carpenter, and like a fool never got up
          there when he was alive because they've likely got the answer to why
          Huntington slacked off and sold out his PE interests to Harriman in
          1911. It must have been an offer Huntington couldn't refuse.
        • superdave_frevele
          ... E. H. Harriman would have really been powerful to reach beyond his grave of two years in 1911. I meant to say Harriman s interests.
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 3, 2004
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            "superdave_frevele" <davefrevele@h...> wrote:
            > why Huntington slacked off and sold out
            > his PE interests to Harriman in 1911.

            E. H. Harriman would have really been powerful to reach beyond his
            grave of two years in 1911. I meant to say Harriman's interests.
          • Jim Griffin
            Didn t PE reach San Bern and Redlands? I thought Birneys 331 and 332 were Redlands PE cars before they went to Fox. R, JG ...
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 3, 2004
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              Didn't PE reach San Bern and Redlands? I thought
              Birneys 331 and 332 were Redlands PE cars before they
              went to Fox. R, JG


              --- superdave_frevele <davefrevele@...> wrote:
              > Before anything else I want to commend
              > David for his fantastic SP website. How
              > I'd hate to have anything ever happen it
              > or Richard Percy's. Great work, David!
              >
              > http://home.socal.rr.com/coscia/
              >
              > http://espee.railfan.net/espee.html
              >
              > While the 1911 Pacific Electric "Great Merger"
              > didn't combine the
              > local LARY. yellow car lines it did incorporate
              > nearly everything
              > else: the PE, LAIU, LA&R, R&A, SBVT, Redlands
              > Central, San Bernardino
              > Inter-Urban and LAP. That same section of the 1911
              > PE Articles of
              > Incorporation and Consolidation also cited other
              > extensions, among
              > them: the Monrovia Line from Glendora to San
              > Bernardino; the Covina
              > Line via Pomona to Riverside; a line from Covina to
              > Long Beach; La
              > Habra Line extensions to Santa Ana and another via
              > Santa Ana Canyon
              > to Riverside; and to San Diego from Santa Ana.
              > Huntington bought
              > land in the Palos Verdes peninsula for a line
              > between Redondo Beach
              > and San Pedro.
              >
              > Note that Huntington reached other objectives
              > specified in the 1901
              > Articles such as Monrovia, Pomona, Whittier, Santa
              > Ana if not quite
              > all (San Bernardino, Redlands, Riverside, and Santa
              > Barbara.)
              >
              >


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            • Christian Tobar
              Dave and others, Now I think I do remember reading something about paper PE lines in one of the Pacific Electric books...maybe in Ride The Big Red Cars,
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 3, 2004
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                Dave and others,

                Now I think I do remember reading something about
                "paper PE lines" in one of the Pacific Electric
                books...maybe in Ride The Big Red Cars, about lines
                that were proposed and studied but never came about.
                There was actually a line proposed to run all the way
                up to Oak Glenn and a small section of track had
                actually been started from downtown Redlands. But
                then WWI hit and the whole thing fell through. But a
                PE line all the way up to Santa Barbara?? Holly cow!
                That would have been a tremendous and bold
                undertaking...not just from an economic view but also
                technical. There would have been a lot of rough and
                mountainous terrain to deal with and of course there
                is also the problem of supplying power for an electric
                trolley line of that distance. Voltage drops over
                distance and with DC there isn't really any easy way
                to compensate for that. Especially back in that time
                period with their technology. You can't transform DC.
                I guess they could and would have used substations
                periodically to supply extra power and boost the
                voltage back up to 600v or 1200v. But wow, what a
                huge project that would have been! And yet when you
                look at the PE system map at its peak, I'd believe it
                would have been possible.

                Chris Tobar



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              • Jim Griffin
                The bar to PE west of the SF Valley is that few people lived there or even wanted to until long after the growth period of interurbans. The trips from Santa
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 3, 2004
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                  The bar to PE west of the SF Valley is that few people
                  lived there or even wanted to until long after the
                  growth period of interurbans. The trips from Santa
                  Barbara, Ventura, Oxnard, Moorpark, Simi and
                  Chatsworth could easily be supplied by SP passenger
                  trains and by buses travelling the El Camino Real and
                  the PCH. R, JG





                  --- Christian Tobar <gatewaycityca@...> wrote:
                  > Dave and others,
                  >
                  > Now I think I do remember reading something about
                  > "paper PE lines" in one of the Pacific Electric
                  > books...maybe in Ride The Big Red Cars, about lines
                  > that were proposed and studied but never came about.
                  >
                  > There was actually a line proposed to run all the
                  > way
                  > up to Oak Glenn and a small section of track had
                  > actually been started from downtown Redlands. But
                  > then WWI hit and the whole thing fell through. But
                  > a
                  > PE line all the way up to Santa Barbara?? Holly
                  > cow!
                  > That would have been a tremendous and bold
                  > undertaking...not just from an economic view but
                  > also
                  > technical. There would have been a lot of rough and
                  > mountainous terrain to deal with and of course there
                  > is also the problem of supplying power for an
                  > electric
                  > trolley line of that distance. Voltage drops over
                  > distance and with DC there isn't really any easy way
                  > to compensate for that. Especially back in that
                  > time
                  > period with their technology. You can't transform
                  > DC.
                  > I guess they could and would have used substations
                  > periodically to supply extra power and boost the
                  > voltage back up to 600v or 1200v. But wow, what a
                  > huge project that would have been! And yet when you
                  > look at the PE system map at its peak, I'd believe
                  > it
                  > would have been possible.
                  >
                  > Chris Tobar
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________
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                • Ray Long
                  Yes, PE did reach San Bernardino and Redlands. However cars 331, 332 and 337 were assigned to Sherman/West Hollywood at the time of their sale to MGM in 1940.
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 3, 2004
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                    Yes, PE did reach San Bernardino and Redlands. However cars 331, 332 and
                    337 were assigned to Sherman/West Hollywood at the time of their sale to MGM
                    in 1940. They were driven down to MGM under their own power via San
                    Vicente, Venice and Culver Boulevards. At the studio they were taken
                    through a hole in the fence and stored inside adjacent to the Redondo line

                    Cars 331 and 332 were kept essentially intact except for a second set of
                    doors applied at each end. Car 337 was cut in half to permit interiors.
                    331 and 332 would later go to OERM thanks to the great MGM auction while 337
                    was scrapped.



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Jim Griffin" <griffhank@...>
                    To: <TrolleysCA@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 4:32 PM
                    Subject: Re: <TrolleysCA> proposed PE lines


                    > Didn't PE reach San Bern and Redlands? I thought
                    > Birneys 331 and 332 were Redlands PE cars before they
                    > went to Fox. R, JG
                    >
                    >
                    > --- superdave_frevele <davefrevele@...> wrote:
                    > > Before anything else I want to commend
                    > > David for his fantastic SP website. How
                    > > I'd hate to have anything ever happen it
                    > > or Richard Percy's. Great work, David!
                    > >
                    > > http://home.socal.rr.com/coscia/
                    > >
                    > > http://espee.railfan.net/espee.html
                    > >
                    > > While the 1911 Pacific Electric "Great Merger"
                    > > didn't combine the
                    > > local LARY. yellow car lines it did incorporate
                    > > nearly everything
                    > > else: the PE, LAIU, LA&R, R&A, SBVT, Redlands
                    > > Central, San Bernardino
                    > > Inter-Urban and LAP. That same section of the 1911
                    > > PE Articles of
                    > > Incorporation and Consolidation also cited other
                    > > extensions, among
                    > > them: the Monrovia Line from Glendora to San
                    > > Bernardino; the Covina
                    > > Line via Pomona to Riverside; a line from Covina to
                    > > Long Beach; La
                    > > Habra Line extensions to Santa Ana and another via
                    > > Santa Ana Canyon
                    > > to Riverside; and to San Diego from Santa Ana.
                    > > Huntington bought
                    > > land in the Palos Verdes peninsula for a line
                    > > between Redondo Beach
                    > > and San Pedro.
                    > >
                    > > Note that Huntington reached other objectives
                    > > specified in the 1901
                    > > Articles such as Monrovia, Pomona, Whittier, Santa
                    > > Ana if not quite
                    > > all (San Bernardino, Redlands, Riverside, and Santa
                    > > Barbara.)
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Christian Tobar
                    Jim, Oh yeah, PE definitely reached San Bernardino and Redlands...in fact it had quite a substatial hub at one time in SB. The PE s lines in San Bernardino
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 3, 2004
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                      Jim,

                      Oh yeah, PE definitely reached San Bernardino and
                      Redlands...in fact it had quite a substatial hub at
                      one time in SB. The PE's lines in San Bernardino have
                      been my thing for the past few years. :-) The lines
                      in SB were first built by the San Bernardino Vally
                      Traction Company, and PE didn't connect to the valley
                      until the San Bernardino line was built in about 1914.
                      But you would never know the big presence PE had in
                      San Bernardino now, because for some reason it seems
                      like whoever were the city officials in the 1960s-70s
                      were bent on wiping out all traces of it and now it's
                      very difficult to find remnants. I had a really hard
                      time when I first started doing research on the
                      Arrowhead Line. Harry could tell you about that one!
                      There is not much left of the PE to find in Redlands
                      either - except for the bridge over the Santa Ana
                      River and what I think is a former carhouse on Citrus
                      Avenue in downtown Redlands.

                      Chris Tobar



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                    • Jim Griffin
                      I go to CSUSB, and have noticed the right of way at the north end of Electric Avenue and then up to the mountain - forgot the name of the street. Also, the PE
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 4, 2004
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                        I go to CSUSB, and have noticed the right of way at
                        the north end of Electric Avenue and then up to the
                        mountain - forgot the name of the street. Also, the
                        PE track marks are clearly visible out Rialto Ave,
                        with even some rail showing where the line west to LA
                        left Rialto Ave. for prw just to the north (plus
                        culvert, bridge abutments, etc).

                        Saw a very old map showing the PE route to Redlands
                        and also a "motor railway." Know anything about that?
                        R, JG


                        --- Christian Tobar <gatewaycityca@...> wrote:
                        > Jim,
                        >
                        > Oh yeah, PE definitely reached San Bernardino and
                        > Redlands...in fact it had quite a substatial hub at
                        > one time in SB. The PE's lines in San Bernardino
                        > have
                        > been my thing for the past few years. :-) The
                        > lines
                        > in SB were first built by the San Bernardino Vally
                        > Traction Company, and PE didn't connect to the
                        > valley
                        > until the San Bernardino line was built in about
                        > 1914.
                        > But you would never know the big presence PE had in
                        > San Bernardino now, because for some reason it seems
                        > like whoever were the city officials in the
                        > 1960s-70s
                        > were bent on wiping out all traces of it and now
                        > it's
                        > very difficult to find remnants. I had a really
                        > hard
                        > time when I first started doing research on the
                        > Arrowhead Line. Harry could tell you about that
                        > one!
                        > There is not much left of the PE to find in Redlands
                        > either - except for the bridge over the Santa Ana
                        > River and what I think is a former carhouse on
                        > Citrus
                        > Avenue in downtown Redlands.
                        >
                        > Chris Tobar
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________
                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
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                      • Christian Tobar
                        Hi Jim, You go to Cal State? You re right in my area then. I just live a couple of miles or so east from CSUSB, on 49th Street. I go to Valley College right
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 4, 2004
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                          Hi Jim,

                          You go to Cal State? You're right in my area then. I
                          just live a couple of miles or so east from CSUSB, on
                          49th Street. I go to Valley College right now. Maybe
                          we can meet sometime. I've been working with the
                          neighborhood association the last couple of years to
                          have Electric Avenue improved with a greenbelt and
                          historic site. If you've hiked it up through the
                          hills and into Watermany Canyon, then you probably
                          know that was the line to Arrowhead Hot Springs. If
                          you ever walk up there anymore, sometimes you'll still
                          find things. I used to find spikes and tie plates up
                          in the foothills all the time when I used to hike up
                          there. I even found part of the trolley wire near the
                          top of Mountain View Avenue. There are still some
                          ties in the ground on Electric. If you want, write to
                          me off-list at gatewaycityca@... and maybe we
                          could meet up sometime.

                          The "motor railway" you mentioned is probably one of
                          the early narrow-gauge steam trains that ran through
                          San Bernardino and Redlands in the 1880's - 1890's.
                          They were also called "steam dummies." They were the
                          very early predecessors to streetcars. Some of the
                          San Bernardino Valley Traction Company's electric
                          streetcar lines (and later PE lines) actually evolved
                          from former steam motor lines. I have a small book
                          that gives an interesting history about the steam
                          dummies that I could show you. If you get a chance
                          sometime, you might also want to check out "Tractions
                          of The Orange Empire" in the California Room of the
                          Feldheim Library. It has tons of stuff on the steam
                          and electric trolley lines in San Bernardino. That's
                          actually where I got a lot of my information when I
                          started reading about the Arrowhead Line.

                          Chris Tobar




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