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Re: Fuel tank rust

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  • gordon2xbbb
    Oops! I d forgotten about that.....back in the late 80 s early 90 s when Hinckley was starting up there was not the plethora of Ethanol Added to fuel that we
    Message 1 of 42 , Oct 5, 2013
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      Oops! I'd forgotten about that.....back in the late 80's early 90's when Hinckley was starting up there was not the plethora of Ethanol Added to fuel that we see today. So I for one am glad they had that one covered..
      I did check recently when I first realised the UK was going to 10% and the Triumph line was that ALL their bikes were OK with Ethanol up to 15% but I did hear of some problems with those models that have have a plastic tank (lining) - some early Tigers perhaps.
      My interest in the effects of Ethanol was primarily concerning the Fuel Tank lining or re-inforcement thereof

      It's good to talk and discuss topics - apologies for my 'multiple postings' - I really don't know why that is happening

      Cheers
      Gordon 2xBBB, 1xTiger800
      Stroud, Gloucestershire, UK

      --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Jason Hart <biker_jas@...> wrote:
      >
      > Mr Smith is correct . The original shop manual I purchased with the bike new (1994 model) does state that the Ethanol modified fuel is fine. I suspect that the only tweak they would made for none ethanol modified markets (are there any left?) could be jetting or fine tuning of the air mixture screw for maximum performance (although at 10% mod does not make much difference).
      >  
      > As to Potential BTU or Calories generated by any fuel when burned ... its strictly dependent on the carbon availability. Example the internal combustion motor has reached a level of a little over 20% efficiency as measured by conversion to motion ... a vast improvement over the original design (the rest is converted to heat). Diesels are no better but get better fuel range because diesel fuel has more carbon per volume.  The ethanol less (-OH group of all alcohols does help combustion of the hydrocarbons by supplying oxygen) but at the cost of contributing less C per volume.
      >
      > And yes Ethanol is hydroscopic - it loves water and refuses to give up to about 5% water upon distillation. It will gladly hold more that can be separated through distillation but is completely compatible in any ratio.    Even hydrocarbons hold a very small amount of water. If the Ethanol is added dry .. or even up to the part it wont give up, it will dry the fuel as "like likes like"  Both water and alcohols are polar. Water more so as it contains no Carbon atoms . So any water in the hydrocarbon portion will be extracted into the Ethanol. The water bonded in this way will pass easier through the jets and injectors and provide the same combustion benefits of improved cleaner burn at the expense of  fuel range.
      >
      > Now maybe in underground storage condensation could be greater ... but really just speculation. Have not looked at vapour pressure effect ... but maybe someone on the forum could look at this side.  Maybe also the Ethanol added to the fuels is not as dry at it could be ... distillation is not enough to remove all the water, so it could already have reached its maximum it can hold and burn within the hydrocarbon mix (what that maximum is - I'm not sure - but 90 proof spirits can still burn and that contains 55% water! However doubt it would mix with hydrocarbon fuels).
      >
      > But since water is heavier than either Ethanol or Hydrocarbons by 20% ... that would depend on the fuel station pick-up system. Bottom pick-up would pull water. Which is why when we do get water in our tank as an emergency fix  - something I've done is drain the carb bowls then add MORE alcohol in the form of gas line antifreeze for the next few tanks to clear up the water.
      >
      >
      > OK .. enough chemistry from me ... retired now. 
      >
      > Jason
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: "nort75mk3@..." <nort75mk3@...>
      > To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, October 4, 2013 12:21:34 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Fuel tank rust
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      > I have to agree with you mostly Mr. Smith but just one tiny
      > misque,,,,,,,,,,I'm pretty sure since the new hinckley triumph vehicles
      > have been manufactured they were designed to burn corn juice.
      >  
      > yours truly,
      >  
      > Mr. T. Smith
      > On other side of the pond 
    • miles.french61
      I m going to take my bike off the road in a week or two for an overhaul. It will take me a few days, and while the tank is off I was thinking of
      Message 42 of 42 , Nov 8, 2013
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        I'm going to take my bike off the road in a week or two for an overhaul. It will take me a few days, and while the tank is off I was thinking of electrolytically removing the rust. Apparently it takes a little while, but it should turn rust back into metal. Yes really. I will need baking soda, a battery charger, a steel rod, and some fiddling about with corks and other sealers and insulators. Might be worthwhile.

        Miles



        ---In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <angusbain2000@...> wrote:

        Talking with a X-Panel beater friend today if he ever used to repair tanks, he said yes, they used to send them to the engine radiator specialist to clean them out first, they use some special chemical which does a good job.  



        ---In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        I did the same with the hot air gun ... been about the same time as  your application with no issues.
        Jason



        On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 12:36:00 PM, "adeux60@..." <adeux60@...> wrote:
         
        the por15 kit worked for me - i went one further on the prep and rattled around some heavily galvanised nails. I feel that I had no difficulty drying the tank (to atmospheric) and further ran a hot air gun through it just to make sure. 

        the video of the two old boys on youtube was helpful 

        i think its about three years now and it hasnt given me cause for concern.




        ---In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        So what you are saying Jason is that unless you are a meticulous chemist that Caswell will do a better job for the majority of average "hackers" that are trying to just enjoy riding their motorcycle
        Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
        On 10/7/2013 1:00 PM, Jason Hart wrote:
        Now I do agree with the forum that if you don't have the meticulous patience of an ex- chemist than you wont achieve the superior results I did with POR-15 .. took me over 2 days to do this right and very sore arms rotating the tank.  As per the u tube video ... best if you have a buddy to relieve you during the tank rotation.

        The instructions for POR -15 are very specific ... the tank must be rotated on a continues basis when setting up- any pooling will cause failure.  The tank should be drained completely of any remaining coating (upside down is best). If the coating is too thick the surface will cure but not completely at the metal interface ... eventually the none x_link portion will allow the coating to weaken resulting in the cracking or what appears to be shrinking.  I said I would stay away from the chemistry but this might be helpful.  The coating actually reacts with the ambient moisture in the air ... cross-linking the two components of the Urethane ... that is what makes it so strong. The paint is not actually drying but getting thicker as the molecular weight increases. If the coating is too thick, then the top cures but the reaction stops before it gets down to the metal interface. If any moisture in on the surface of the metal - the coating reacts with it self and does not bind to the metal . The metal surface conditioner applied just prior to the final coating actually creates active sites for the coating to react to and chemically bond to the bare metal.

        Unfortunately as to the other products based on epoxies ... I've worked with epoxy chemist to try and formulate (when working as a resin supplier) to get around this issue.  Some are not bad ... some really good hardeners ended up being carcinogenesis so off the list of options.  Of course the paint suppliers don't list their secrets ... and some may have found a happy compromise that approaches the Urethane systems that is good enough for our purposes.  The advantage of epoxies is that once the reaction has started the molecular weight continues to increase until all of it is reacted.

        Jason     



        From: "angusbain2000@..." <angusbain2000@...>
        To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:16:32 PM
        Subject: RE: RE: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Fuel tank rust and tank liners

         
        A close friend of mine has told me about two products i should be looking at.  http://www.rustedsolutions.com.au/  &   http://www.kbs-coatings.com.au/kbs-motorcycle-tank-sealer-kit

        id be greatful for any feedback from our members who have chemical knowledge and tell me if they think these products are any better than caswell. thankyou. 


        ---In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        good feedback Tom and others thankyou. So would it be safe to say Caswell  is the best? or is there some other equal best out there?  


        ---In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        I have found that POR 15 shrinks over time.  This creates cracks the compromise the sealing properties.  I have tried it on 2 separate tanks.  After 3 yes and temp range of 0-5 degrees f in winter to over 100 f in the summer the crack appeared.  There were flakes in the tank.   I went to Caswell and after 5 years the tank appears fine.   We have been using the shit ethanol mixture here in US for years.  Whatever you choose make sure you prep the tank properly.
        Tom in Boston
        On Oct 5, 2013 11:43 AM, "Jason Hart" <biker_jas@...> wrote:
         
        Your concern is justified about the tank liners ... epoxy coatings were used in the earlier models ... mine included. Unfortunate epoxy can be optimized only to hydrocarbon resistance or oxygenated (not both - I'll spare the chemistry lesson this time) ... Prolonged contact with Ethanol modified fuels will eventually lift the epoxy coating. Something I found out the hard way. The technical solution are either vinyl ester coatings or Aromatic urethane X link systems.

        I found one available in kit form of an Aromatic coating designed for restoring gas tanks with all the needed prep solutions and excellent instructions. The product Trade name is POR-15 FUEL TANK REPAIR KIT. I know its available on both sides of the pond as it seems I saw a U-tube video on 2 Brits doing a tank restoration   Here is the link to the manufactures page http://www.advanced-rust-protection.com/index.html . Canadian link is

        Word of Caution - follow the instructions to the letter - the actual final step which is the Aromatic Urethane is a moisture cure system. Tank must be prepped with great care and absolutely bone dry before you open the can. Application must be made as soon as can is opened. Even a small amount of moisture in the tank will create coating to fail.

        Mine has functioned flawless for 3 years now ... using all types of fuels (Canada and USA) from non oxygenated premium to Ethanol modified..
         
        Jason
           



        From: gordon2xbbb <gordon.smith29@...>
        To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 5:20:34 AM
        Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Fuel tank rust

         
        Oops! I'd forgotten about that.....back in the late 80's early 90's when Hinckley was starting up there was not the plethora of Ethanol Added to fuel that we see today. So I for one am glad they had that one covered..
        I did check recently when I first realised the UK was going to 10% and the Triumph line was that ALL their bikes were OK with Ethanol up to 15% but I did hear of some problems with those models that have have a plastic tank (lining) - some early Tigers perhaps.
        My interest in the effects of Ethanol was primarily concerning the Fuel Tank lining or re-inforcement thereof

        It's good to talk and discuss topics - apologies for my 'multiple postings' - I really don't know why that is happening

        Cheers
        Gordon 2xBBB, 1xTiger800
        Stroud, Gloucestershire, UK

        --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Jason Hart <biker_jas@...> wrote:
        >
        > Mr Smith is correct . The original shop manual I purchased with the bike new (1994 model) does state that the Ethanol modified fuel is fine. I suspect that the only tweak they would made for none ethanol modified markets (are there any left?) could be jetting or fine tuning of the air mixture screw for maximum performance (although at 10% mod does not make much difference).
        >  
        > As to Potential BTU or Calories generated by any fuel when burned ... its strictly dependent on the carbon availability. Example the internal combustion motor has reached a level of a little over 20% efficiency as measured by conversion to motion ... a vast improvement over the original design (the rest is converted to heat). Diesels are no better but get better fuel range because diesel fuel has more carbon per volume.  The ethanol less (-OH group of all alcohols does help combustion of the hydrocarbons by supplying oxygen) but at the cost of contributing less C per volume.
        >
        > And yes Ethanol is hydroscopic - it loves water and refuses to give up to about 5% water upon distillation. It will gladly hold more that can be separated through distillation but is completely compatible in any ratio.    Even hydrocarbons hold a very small amount of water. If the Ethanol is added dry .. or even up to the part it wont give up, it will dry the fuel as "like likes like"  Both water and alcohols are polar. Water more so as it contains no Carbon atoms . So any water in the hydrocarbon portion will be extracted into the Ethanol. The water bonded in this way will pass easier through the jets and injectors and provide the same combustion benefits of improved cleaner burn at the expense of  fuel range.
        >
        > Now maybe in underground storage condensation could be greater ... but really just speculation. Have not looked at vapour pressure effect ... but maybe someone on the forum could look at this side.  Maybe also the Ethanol added to the fuels is not as dry at it could be ... distillation is not enough to remove all the water, so it could already have reached its maximum it can hold and burn within the hydrocarbon mix (what that maximum is - I'm not sure - but 90 proof spirits can still burn and that contains 55% water! However doubt it would mix with hydrocarbon fuels).
        >
        > But since water is heavier than either Ethanol or Hydrocarbons by 20% ... that would depend on the fuel station pick-up system. Bottom pick-up would pull water. Which is why when we do get water in our tank as an emergency fix  - something I've done is drain the carb bowls then add MORE alcohol in the form of gas line antifreeze for the next few tanks to clear up the water.
        >
        >
        > OK .. enough chemistry from me ... retired now. 
        >
        > Jason
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: "nort75mk3@..." <nort75mk3@...>
        > To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, October 4, 2013 12:21:34 PM
        > Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Fuel tank rust
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        > I have to agree with you mostly Mr. Smith but just one tiny
        > misque,,,,,,,,,,I'm pretty sure since the new hinckley triumph vehicles
        > have been manufactured they were designed to burn corn juice.
        >  
        > yours truly,
        >  
        > Mr. T. Smith
        > On other side of the pond 






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