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[TriumphTrophy] Re: cam chain tensioner failure

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  • angusbain2000
    good info David thanks, i wonder if running Militec1 in the engine and box would help reduce the gear clatter, Anybody done it? what is sprints ebay store name
    Message 1 of 38 , Sep 8, 2013
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      good info David thanks, i wonder if running Militec1 in the engine and box would help reduce the gear clatter, Anybody done it? what is sprints ebay store name so i can check it out, thanks.

      --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "djacarr@..." <djacarr@...> wrote:
      >
      > The cam chain tensioner spring is under constant compression so over time will naturally shorten. If the uncompressed spring length is under 65mm it should be replaced. It is not necessary to replace the whole tensioner assembly, I have recently replaced the spring in the tensioner on my 1994 1200. In the UK they are available from Sprint Manufacturing, who have listings on Ebay but are a proper business. To replace the spring it is only necessary to remove the large nut, you don't have to take the assembly out.
      >  
      > Replacing the spring on my bike has reduced the noise to a degree. I read somewhere quite a while ago that the early Hinckley engines make a lot of mechanical noise because they use square-cut gears instead of the helical-cut gears used in most other bikes. I believe this is because the square-cut gears are stronger and cause less stress on surrounding components. They didn't want to take the chance of a load of mechanical failures in the early years of the new Triumph launch.
      >  
      > David
      > UK
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Samuel Crider <dieseldude1@...>
      > To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, 7 September 2013, 15:43
      > Subject: RE: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: cam chain tensioner failure
      >
      >  
      >
      > Interesting, what year is your bike? Would you happen to still have the part number? What caused the spring to shorten? Did it collapse over time? The only data I have access to is bike bandit. I noticed Triumph changed the part number which I assume means it's an improved redesigned tensioner. At least that's what I'm hoping for. The beast is so noisy that replacing the tensioner is now on the top of my list.
      > Best wishes,
      > Samuel
      > 96 BBBB PB
      > New Orleans
      > On Sep 5, 2013 1:38 PM, <adeux60@...> wrote:
      >
      > >I bought a new tensioner from triumph - two/three years ago as the spring was too short by 10mm and had to buy the whole unit - I would have said the unit was entirely identical
      > > 
      > >--- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      > >The question is the later oem redesigned tensioner plug and play in the earler machines. I'm game at replacing mine if the improved version fits. Especially if doing so would lower the thrashing bucket of bolts volume by even ten percent.
      > >Samuel
      > >96 BBBB PB
      > >New Orleans
      > >On Sep 4, 2013 6:53 AM, "angusbain2000" <angusbain2000@> wrote:
      > >before we leave this cam chain talk, i thought id ask about the different brands available and if they are any good? are the aftermkt cam chains any better than the oem triumph ones? do they stretch less? and last longer? price isnt an issue in my book if the chain lasts a very long time and doesnt stretch much.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>--- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Jason Hart <biker_jas@> wrote:
      > >>>>
      > >>>> I've owned the bike since new - always used full synthetic 15W-50 ... mostly Mutol with few exceptions. Found that not all synthetics are created equal and forget the semi-synthetic - its a marketing gimmick (you're lucky if it contains 15% synthetic). My chain tensioner and the top end when I lifted the cams to adjust / check the valve shims were spotless and showed no wear at 80,000 km.  The clearance has not changed since 40,000 km.  Use good oil and these engines will keep on going. Electrics on the other hand will eventually fail ... not much we can do about that but keep on top of it.
      > >>>>
      > >>>> Jason - 1994 Trident 900 - 117,000km
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>> ________________________________
      > >>>>  From: "adeux60@" <adeux60@>
      > >>>> To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
      > >>>> Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 7:16:21 AM
      > >>>> Subject: [TriumphTrophy] RE: cam chain tensioner failure
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>>  
      > >>>> Well considering the number of other failures these bikes occasionally suffer from then NO there isn't an issue. 
      > >>>>
      > >>>> But I have heard of a few head gaskets blowing or minor leaks in the area and if my bike was my pride and joy and I lost a head gasket then I would be tempted to renew the two guides also. The fixed guide requires removal of the head the one on the adjuster does not so could be changed next time you check the shims.
      > >>>>
      > >>>> Furthermore my tensioner spring was under spec by a few mm (still worked) and at the time I had to buy the entire unit from Triumph. Recently though Sprint Manufacturing are offering the spring alone at a more reasonable price. 
      > >>>>
      > >>>> If I go off topic and refer to my experience of other vehicles with head gasket failures - I am stunned at the number that had loose heads and could have entirely avoided the issue if someone had torqued down the head as part of a service. yes it is a little bit more complicated than that as you would have to loosen the head on our bikes before tightening. The bolts are reusable if undamaged.
      > >>>>
      > >>>> My PO suffered a guide failure and from the "lost" bits I later found I believe it was the guide on the tensioner that failed (which must be the most "loaded" one - in my mind) thus he was able to swap this out without taking the head off. (requires unbolting from the lower end in the timing case - with the tensioner removed)
      > >>>>
      > >>>> Subsequently several years later I lost the head gasket and inspected both guides and didn't bother to change them. Nor did I find any contact marks between the pistons and valves. In hindsight i probably limped on for some time with a failing gasket. 
      > >>>>
      > >>>> So as my rare guide failure didn't result in catastrophic failure - I think it is minor and unlikely....but I can't attest for all the engines that end up down the scrappy long before the guide would be "tested" 
      > >>>>
      > >>>> I have never heard of a cam chain failing nor of bent valves although I have heard of cam chain replacements as they have stretched past their service limits - but I don't expect this inside 70k and I would want proof not the word of a salesman with a new chain in hand....
      > >>>>
      > >>>> I have heard of some big end failures but I am loathed to draw conclusions as some bikes are thrashed to bits or extremely badly serviced. i saw oil on one bike that resembled tar. Again if i loved my bike to bits and get to 100k ( a long way to go) i might change out the big ends 
      > >>>>
      > >>>> Dan
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>>     
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>> --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <angusbain2000@> wrote:
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>> So does the 900 and 1200 have a weakness in the cam chain area, ive read through some the replies here about varies different failings, so the big question is, do these models have a weakness either in the cam chain assembly, including the guides and has anybody taken a close look to see  what the weak point is and see if a modification will improve things? or is just normal wear and tear at high mileages? ive varies big Jp bikes and never had cam chain problems so makes me wonder whats going on with the Trophys. thanks.
      > >>>>
      > >>>> --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Peter Morgan <peter14morgan@> wrote:
      > >>>> >
      > >>>> > Hi Mark, I had identical failure a year ago when travelling on a motorway. Recovery service got me home. Dismantled engine as one of big ends also failed at same time. The broken guide had come jammed against timing chain causing fragments which clogged up gauze filter in sump impeding oil flow. I advise inspection of this in case your bike is so affected. Hopefully not as it seems you had acted promptly to hearing sound from your engine. Good luck with fixing problem.
      > >>>> >
      > >>>> > Sent from my iPad
      > >>>> >
      > >>>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>------------------------------------
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      > >>>List guidelines: PLEASE NO grumpy replies, or replies which merely add agreement to a previous post. If a reply is only relevant to the original writer, please REPLY DIRECT to that person. No SPAM, no adult-oriented topics, and no postings of a political or commercial nature are allowed, except for personal items for sale/wanted. Please trim old messages to a minimum when replying.
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    • adeux60@ymail.com
      crikey its got a joiner !!!! --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, wrote: this is the Jp made cam chain i was talking about, look up ebay
      Message 38 of 38 , Sep 16, 2013
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        crikey its got a joiner !!!! 



        --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <angusbain2000@...> wrote:

        this is the Jp made cam chain i was talking about, look up ebay item number  360440177026  



        --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Hi John
         
        The work's not complete yet, but it will be around £280.
         
        If I'd had proper facilities I would have done it myself, but I don't think it's really the sort of thing I can do outside with no cover or weather protection :(
         
        David

        From: John <lmindlists@...>
        To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, 11 September 2013, 11:52
        Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: cam chain tensioner failure
         
        What did they charge you to replace the chain?

        "djacarr@..." wrote:
         
        This Militec stuff looks interesting, I'll have to see if there's a UK distributor.
         
        Talking about cam chains and tensioners as we were... I've just taken my bike into the dealer as it was giving serious performance issues. This started at about the time I changed the tensioner spring.
         
        The dealer has just called to say the problem is the chain. It is just about shot and the inlet cam has slipped one tooth. They don't think there is any damage thankfully.
         
        I think changing the spring has saved my engine! But probably more by a load of luck than anything else.
         
        My bike has 55K miles on it. I've seen differing comments about expected chain life. The most common is ~50K miles so I was going to get it changed soon anyway. My dealer said the figure was around 30K miles, but that way they sell more chains!
         
        So keep an eye on those chains, folks!
         
        David

        From: angusbain2000
        To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, 9 September 2013, 11:29
        Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: cam chain tensioner failure
         
        thanks for the ebay link, i will have to do some sweet talking and see if they will post downunder? im sure they will help, most businesses do, as they know you will return and spend up. Yes i understand what your saying about wet clutches, Militec1 works little bit different and wont affect wet clutches, but thanks for bring up the comment for others to read. http://www.phoenixbikers.com/estore/militec.htm http://militecusa.com/motorcycles.html --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "djacarr@..." wrote:
        > > When thinking about using oil additives bear in mind the wet clutch. If you use something like STP or Molyslip (is Militec1 something like that?) you would most likely end up with clutch slip. >   > Sprint's Ebay name is newtown20. This is the item: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290798758594?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 >   > It states delivery is to UK, but I should think they might consider mailing a small item like this overseas. > > > ________________________________ > From: angusbain2000 > To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, 8 September 2013, 12:02 > Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: cam chain tensioner failure > >   > > good info David thanks, i wonder if running Militec1 in the engine and box would help reduce the gear clatter, Anybody done it? what is sprints ebay store name so i can check it out, thanks. > > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "djacarr@" wrote: > > > > The cam chain tensioner spring is under constant compression so over time will naturally shorten. If the uncompressed spring length is under 65mm it should be replaced. It is not necessary to replace the whole tensioner assembly, I have recently replaced the spring in the tensioner on my 1994 1200. In the UK they are available from Sprint Manufacturing, who have listings on Ebay but are a proper business. To replace the spring it is only necessary to remove the large nut, you don't have to take the assembly out. > >   > > Replacing the spring on my bike has reduced the noise to a degree. I read somewhere quite a while ago that the early Hinckley engines make a lot of mechanical noise because they use square-cut gears instead of the helical-cut gears used in most other bikes. I believe this is because the square-cut gears are stronger and cause less stress on surrounding components. They didn't want to take the chance of a load of mechanical failures in the early years of the new Triumph launch. > >   > > David > > UK > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Samuel Crider > > To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, 7 September 2013, 15:43 > > Subject: RE: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: cam chain tensioner failure > > > >   > > > > Interesting, what year is your bike? Would you happen to still have the part number? What caused the spring to shorten? Did it collapse over time? The only data I have access to is bike bandit. I noticed Triumph changed the part number which I assume means it's an improved redesigned tensioner. At least that's what I'm hoping for. The beast is so noisy that replacing the tensioner is now on the top of my list. > > Best wishes, > > Samuel > > 96 BBBB PB > > New Orleans > > On Sep 5, 2013 1:38 PM, wrote: > > > > >I bought a new tensioner from triumph - two/three years ago as the spring was too short by 10mm and had to buy the whole unit - I would have said the unit was entirely identical > > >  > > >--- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >The question is the later oem redesigned tensioner plug and play in the earler machines. I'm game at replacing mine if the improved version fits. Especially if doing so would lower the thrashing bucket of bolts volume by even ten percent. > > >Samuel > > >96 BBBB PB > > >New Orleans > > >On Sep 4, 2013 6:53 AM, "angusbain2000" wrote: > > >before we leave this cam chain talk, i thought id ask about the different brands available and if they are any good? are the aftermkt cam chains any better than the oem triumph ones? do they stretch less? and last longer? price isnt an issue in my book if the chain lasts a very long time and doesnt stretch much. > > >> > > >> > > >>--- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Jason Hart wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> I've owned the bike since new - always used full synthetic 15W-50 ... mostly Mutol with few exceptions. Found that not all synthetics are created equal and forget the semi-synthetic - its a marketing gimmick (you're lucky if it contains 15% synthetic). My chain tensioner and the top end when I lifted the cams to adjust / check the valve shims were spotless and showed no wear at 80,000 km.ÃÆ'‚  The clearance has not changed since 40,000 km.ÃÆ'‚  Use good oil and these engines will keep on going. Electrics on the other hand will eventually fail ... not much we can do about that but keep on top of it. > > >>>> > > >>>> Jason - 1994 Trident 900 - 117,000km > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>  From: "adeux60@" > > >>>> To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com > > >>>> Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 7:16:21 AM > > >>>> Subject: [TriumphTrophy] RE: cam chain tensioner failure > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ÃÆ'‚  > > >>>> Well considering the number of other failures these bikes occasionally suffer from then NO there isn't an issue.ÃÆ'‚  > > >>>> > > >>>> But I have heard of a few head gaskets blowing or minor leaks in the area and if my bike was my pride and joy and I lost a head gasket then I would be tempted to renew the two guides also. The fixed guide requires removal of the head the one on the adjuster does not so could be changed next time you check the shims. > > >>>> > > >>>> Furthermore my tensioner spring was under spec by a few mm (still worked) and at the time I had to buy the entire unit from Triumph. Recently though Sprint Manufacturing are offering the spring alone at a more reasonable price.ÃÆ'‚  > > >>>> > > >>>> If I go off topic and refer to my experience of other vehicles with head gasket failures - I am stunned at the number that had loose heads and could have entirely avoided the issue if someone had torqued down the head as part of a service. yes it is a little bit more complicated than that as you would have to loosen the head on our bikes before tightening. The bolts are reusable if undamaged. > > >>>> > > >>>> My PO suffered a guide failure and from the "lost" bits I later found I believe it was the guide on the tensioner that failed (which must be the most "loaded" one - in my mind) thus he was able to swap this out without taking the head off. (requires unbolting from the lower end in the timing case - with the tensioner removed) > > >>>> > > >>>> Subsequently several years later I lost the head gasket and inspected both guides and didn't bother to change them. Nor did I find any contact marks between the pistons and valves. In hindsight i probably limped on for some time with a failing gasket.ÃÆ'‚  > > >>>> > > >>>> So as my rare guide failure didn't result in catastrophic failure - I think it is minor and unlikely....but I can't attest for all the engines that end up down the scrappy long before the guide would be "tested"ÃÆ'‚  > > >>>> > > >>>> I have never heard of a cam chain failing nor of bent valves although I have heard of cam chain replacements as they have stretched past their service limits - but I don't expect this inside 70k and I would want proof not the word of a salesman with a new chain in hand.... > > >>>> > > >>>> I have heard of some big end failures but I am loathed to draw conclusions as some bikes are thrashed to bits or extremely badly serviced. i saw oil on one bike that resembled tar. Again if i loved my bike to bits and get to 100k ( a long way to go) i might change out the big endsÃÆ'‚  > > >>>> > > >>>> Dan > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'‚  ÃÆ'‚  > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> So does the 900 and 1200 have a weakness in the cam chain area, ive read through some the replies here about varies different failings, so the big question is, do these models have a weakness either in the cam chain assembly, including the guides and has anybody taken a close look to see  what the weak point is and see if a modification will improve things? or is just normal wear and tear at high mileages? ive varies big Jp bikes and never had cam chain problems so makes me wonder whats going on with the Trophys. thanks. > > >>>> > > >>>> --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Peter Morgan wrote: > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Hi Mark, I had identical failure a year ago when travelling on a motorway. Recovery service got me home. Dismantled engine as one of big ends also failed at same time. The broken guide had come jammed against timing chain causing fragments which clogged up gauze filter in sump impeding oil flow. I advise inspection of this in case your bike is so affected. Hopefully not as it seems you had acted promptly to hearing sound from your engine. Good luck with fixing problem. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Sent from my iPad > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>------------------------------------ > > >>> > > >>>List guidelines: PLEASE NO grumpy replies, or replies which merely add agreement to a previous post. If a reply is only relevant to the original writer, please REPLY DIRECT to that person. No SPAM, no adult-oriented topics, and no postings of a political or commercial nature are allowed, except for personal items for sale/wanted. Please trim old messages to a minimum when replying. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Post message: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com > > >>>Subscribe:  TriumphTrophy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >>>Unsubscribe:  TriumphTrophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >>>List owner:  TriumphTrophy-owner@yahoogroups.com > > >>> > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >
        -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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