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Rough running - but not all the time ............ driving me nuts

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  • stevethevic
    Friends, Help wanted to try and sort out my 1200 Trophy (1999) as I m stumped. For the last year the bike has run perfectly, very easy to start, great fuel
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 28, 2013
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      Friends,

      Help wanted to try and sort out my 1200 Trophy (1999) as I'm stumped. For the last year the bike has run perfectly, very easy to start, great fuel economy and loads of power, in fact up to about six weeks ago it was running like a dream.

      The first symptom came about six weeks ago and was that I got a 'flat spot' about 1700 rpm, not much just a bit of a hiccup and I just rode round it expecting it would go after the next service.

      Then about two weeks ago the bike became really rough all the way under 2100 rpm, awful to try and ride but - after 2100 rpm just as normal.

      This last weekend I needed to ride down to Cornwall and back, about 1100 miles or so and set off not too worried about the bike. After all, motorway speeds don't need much under 2100 rpm.

      All was well till I got to Bristol, about 300 miles into the journey when I needed to go onto reserve just before the fill up at a service station. Immediately, and I mean immediately the bike started to belp and chug and fart. Wouldn't rev, started to lose speed, lumpy and misfiring.

      I thought I'd just let it run too low and that when I filled up, and the clag from whatever fuel was causing the problems had passed, then all would be well. Just to be on the safe side I filled up and tipped in a whole bottle of Redex engine cleaner.

      The next 260 miles were a nightmare. The engine wouldn't rev and was lumpy, misfiring and belping and chugging UNTILL I got up to cruising speed around 4500 rpm or so. Then it was as smooth as normal, unless I tried to accelerate in which case it missed and stuttered again.

      When I got to Cornwall we stripped the bike down and looked at the carbs. No tears in the diaphragm, fuel flowing smoothly, absolutely no rust, dirt or clag in the tank (we flushed the whole fuel system to make sure). When we put it all back together the bike was still very lumpy under 2100 rpm but it seemed to run smoothly above that.

      Took the plugs out - absolutely normal and gap dead on spec.

      I double and triple checked the breather hose wasn't blocked (and I have some ancillary breather holes in the filler cap).

      I set off back home to Northumberland yesterday and, again lumpy under 2100 rpm (and although it would start easily enough it just won't idle at all with the revs wondering up and down - 'hunting' almost), all seemed well at motorway speed.

      I pulled in after 180 miles or so to fill up confident that the rest of the journey was going to be fine and that at home I'd just have to sort out the rough idle and flat spots under 2100rpm.

      BUT.

      I filled up with fuel and set off, still lumpy as anything under 2100rpm, as soon as I pulled away and it started belping and chugging, missing and stalled. Started up straight away again and I pulled away, still lumpy but running and headed out onto the M5.

      Just the same as the way down, wouldn't pull cleanly and didn't want to rev at all but, once up to motorway speed it was fine and hummed along at 4500 or so rpm. Next services, put some more Redex in but it made no difference and was like this all the way home - rubbish if I tried to accelerate but at any revs above 2100 it would sit quite happily as long as I wanted.

      9 hours of lumpy acceleration on the motorway home - rubbish journey. Won't accelerate, everytime I slowed down (services, roundabouts on the A19 etc) it tried to cut out and was a pig to get home.

      I went out to the garage today and fired it up - started so easily (full choke, no throttle slight dab on the starter) but then wouldn't idle, lumpy acceleration and all the problems of the day before.

      SO ........ any ideas what's wrong ?

      I don't think its the crank sender as the problems aren't heat related and it never cut out fully, stalled perhaps, but never cut out.

      The fuel system must be pristine clean, we flushed it and blew it out with an air line and i put three bottle of Redex in over 1200 miles.

      Is it an electrical fault that just developed at the same time as I went onto reserve and so is the fuel system a red herring ?

      Has anyone had this type of problems and if so, what solved them ?

      Many thanks.

      Peace.

      Steve
    • joan tabberer
      HI Steve, this might sound silly, is it running on all four cylinders? when it s running you could spray some water on the downpipes... hot pipes will
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 28, 2013
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        HI Steve,
        this might sound silly, is it running on all four cylinders?
        when it's running you could spray some water on the downpipes... hot pipes will evaporate the water quickly... if you can make the bike exhibit the lumpiness whilst doing this you might identify which cylinders are giving problems.
        if it's electrical it is possible it might be running on two cylinders which would be down on power and significantly lumpy... but I would expect it to be accompanied by bangs in the silencers...
        if only one cylinder is giving problems, then it's likely to be that plug, or plug lead or possibly coil.
        if it's two cylinders  
        the ignition system runs two plugs from each coil. there could be a problem with the electrical feed to the coils, or the wire from the coils to the igniter or one of the coils coils could be going open circuit,  or one or more of the HT Leads could be breaking down, or water could have got into the plugwells, (although I would expect you to have noticed this when you checked the plugs.) or you could have a bad connection on the interlock wiring on the side stand, clutch lever neutral switch... 
        or your igniter could be going chips on you, possibly even a bad joint on the kill switch
         
        there are a lot of connections in the ignition circuit... anyone of them could be a culprit, or a selection of them could be on the limits and between them, causing the problem... 
         
        are you an electronics / electrical man? or is that beyond you? 
         
        If you have a decent Multimeter you can check out the voltage to the coils with the ignition on. there should  be 12 volts at the coils. if there is, turn the ignigion off, note where the connectors are located on each coil, and disconnect the coil completely there should be next to short circuit between the two Lucar connectors (Flat blade connectors on the coil) wneh you removed the wires, there should have been significant friction as the connector came off each of the blades, the blades and connectors should be nice and clean and a dab of petroleum jelly when you reassemble them wouldn't go amiss at preventing future corrosion / oxidation. if the connectors were loose, gently squeezing them whilst disconnected so that the two curved bits are closer to the flat side, will make them tighter when re assembled...
        there should be a measurable resistance between the HT lead connectors and the flat blade connectors, somewhere around one thousand ohms to two thousand ohm's should be fine... near infinity, or a wavery reading or a reading that is different if you swap the test meter leads round, is not a good sign...
         
        the HT leads should be tight on the coil connectors and tight on the plugs. when you remove them... (note where they came from so you know where to put them back again... measure the resistance of the HT coils this should be measurable  I think they are carbon filled HT Leads on the Trophy to act as suppressors, so I would expect somewhere around 5 thousand ohms to be OK... if they are open circuit, it's not a good sign...
         
        if you don't get 12 volts on the coils with the ignition on, then you need to trace the power back to the battery
         
         
        there are lots of points to trip you up... I have covered a few,
        Best of luck,
        Joan
        From: stevethevic <revd.steve.wilkinson@...>
        To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, 28 August 2013, 20:38
        Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Rough running - but not all the time ............ driving me nuts
         
        Friends,

        Help wanted to try and sort out my 1200 Trophy (1999) as I'm stumped. For the last year the bike has run perfectly, very easy to start, great fuel economy and loads of power, in fact up to about six weeks ago it was running like a dream.

        The first symptom came about six weeks ago and was that I got a 'flat spot' about 1700 rpm, not much just a bit of a hiccup and I just rode round it expecting it would go after the next service.

        Then about two weeks ago the bike became really rough all the way under 2100 rpm, awful to try and ride but - after 2100 rpm just as normal.

        This last weekend I needed to ride down to Cornwall and back, about 1100 miles or so and set off not too worried about the bike. After all, motorway speeds don't need much under 2100 rpm.

        All was well till I got to Bristol, about 300 miles into the journey when I needed to go onto reserve just before the fill up at a service station. Immediately, and I mean immediately the bike started to belp and chug and fart. Wouldn't rev, started to lose speed, lumpy and misfiring.

        I thought I'd just let it run too low and that when I filled up, and the clag from whatever fuel was causing the problems had passed, then all would be well. Just to be on the safe side I filled up and tipped in a whole bottle of Redex engine cleaner.

        The next 260 miles were a nightmare. The engine wouldn't rev and was lumpy, misfiring and belping and chugging UNTILL I got up to cruising speed around 4500 rpm or so. Then it was as smooth as normal, unless I tried to accelerate in which case it missed and stuttered again.

        When I got to Cornwall we stripped the bike down and looked at the carbs. No tears in the diaphragm, fuel flowing smoothly, absolutely no rust, dirt or clag in the tank (we flushed the whole fuel system to make sure). When we put it all back together the bike was still very lumpy under 2100 rpm but it seemed to run smoothly above that.

        Took the plugs out - absolutely normal and gap dead on spec.

        I double and triple checked the breather hose wasn't blocked (and I have some ancillary breather holes in the filler cap).

        I set off back home to Northumberland yesterday and, again lumpy under 2100 rpm (and although it would start easily enough it just won't idle at all with the revs wondering up and down - 'hunting' almost), all seemed well at motorway speed.

        I pulled in after 180 miles or so to fill up confident that the rest of the journey was going to be fine and that at home I'd just have to sort out the rough idle and flat spots under 2100rpm.

        BUT.

        I filled up with fuel and set off, still lumpy as anything under 2100rpm, as soon as I pulled away and it started belping and chugging, missing and stalled. Started up straight away again and I pulled away, still lumpy but running and headed out onto the M5.

        Just the same as the way down, wouldn't pull cleanly and didn't want to rev at all but, once up to motorway speed it was fine and hummed along at 4500 or so rpm. Next services, put some more Redex in but it made no difference and was like this all the way home - rubbish if I tried to accelerate but at any revs above 2100 it would sit quite happily as long as I wanted.

        9 hours of lumpy acceleration on the motorway home - rubbish journey. Won't accelerate, everytime I slowed down (services, roundabouts on the A19 etc) it tried to cut out and was a pig to get home.

        I went out to the garage today and fired it up - started so easily (full choke, no throttle slight dab on the starter) but then wouldn't idle, lumpy acceleration and all the problems of the day before.

        SO ........ any ideas what's wrong ?

        I don't think its the crank sender as the problems aren't heat related and it never cut out fully, stalled perhaps, but never cut out.

        The fuel system must be pristine clean, we flushed it and blew it out with an air line and i put three bottle of Redex in over 1200 miles.

        Is it an electrical fault that just developed at the same time as I went onto reserve and so is the fuel system a red herring ?

        Has anyone had this type of problems and if so, what solved them ?

        Many thanks.

        Peace.

        Steve

      • Jacques, Martin, Vodafone Group
        Steve, From your description, particularly the hunting idle and the change of behaviour at a fairly hard point (2,100rpm), it sounds to me like an air leak
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 29, 2013
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          Steve,

           

          From your description, particularly the hunting idle and the change of behaviour at a fairly hard point (2,100rpm), it sounds to me like an air leak somewhere causing the bike to run lean.

           

          Does the bike behave any better if you open the choke slightly (richening the fuel mixture) during the rough running part. If so, I’d be looking for splits in any of the pipework between airbox and the cylinder head, or missing vacuum caps on any of the carbs. You may find spraying something flammable (like WD40) whilst the engine is running will increase the idle speed as the WD40 is sucked in via the hole/crack and burned.

           

          Another possibility is a weak alternator that does not provide sufficient voltage to power the coils until the bike reaches the magical 2,100rpm. I would suggest a 5 minute check of battery voltage at various RPM with a multimeter would be worth doing – should be 13.2 ish Volts at idle, moving fairly quickly up to 14ish Volts when the bike is higher than idle.


          Martin.

          2010 1400GTR (C14 over in the US)

          Ex. 2003 1200

          Bath, UK.

           

        • Daniel Barclay
          The clue is your location and passing on to reserve. There are several riders who never run their bike in anything other than reserve to avoid accumulating
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 29, 2013
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            The clue is your location and passing on to reserve.

            There are several riders who never run their bike in anything other than reserve to avoid accumulating water and passing it in one lump..

            If you are not into the time or expense of getting the carbs serviced, then remove the fuel tank dispose of the contents (if you find rust search the posts here) open the 4 drains below the carbs and rock the bike till it empties the carbs.

            Maybe flush with fresh fuel or blow air through.

            If you are able you can examine the discharge for water droplets.

            Try to get the tank back on without snagging the lines and check fuel flows to the carb drains freely

            Dan






            --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "stevethevic" <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> wrote:
            >
            > Friends,
            >
            > Help wanted to try and sort out my 1200 Trophy (1999) as I'm stumped. For the last year the bike has run perfectly, very easy to start, great fuel economy and loads of power, in fact up to about six weeks ago it was running like a dream.
            >
            > The first symptom came about six weeks ago and was that I got a 'flat spot' about 1700 rpm, not much just a bit of a hiccup and I just rode round it expecting it would go after the next service.
            >
            > Then about two weeks ago the bike became really rough all the way under 2100 rpm, awful to try and ride but - after 2100 rpm just as normal.
            >
            > This last weekend I needed to ride down to Cornwall and back, about 1100 miles or so and set off not too worried about the bike. After all, motorway speeds don't need much under 2100 rpm.
            >
            > All was well till I got to Bristol, about 300 miles into the journey when I needed to go onto reserve just before the fill up at a service station. Immediately, and I mean immediately the bike started to belp and chug and fart. Wouldn't rev, started to lose speed, lumpy and misfiring.
            >
            > I thought I'd just let it run too low and that when I filled up, and the clag from whatever fuel was causing the problems had passed, then all would be well. Just to be on the safe side I filled up and tipped in a whole bottle of Redex engine cleaner.
            >
            > The next 260 miles were a nightmare. The engine wouldn't rev and was lumpy, misfiring and belping and chugging UNTILL I got up to cruising speed around 4500 rpm or so. Then it was as smooth as normal, unless I tried to accelerate in which case it missed and stuttered again.
            >
            > When I got to Cornwall we stripped the bike down and looked at the carbs. No tears in the diaphragm, fuel flowing smoothly, absolutely no rust, dirt or clag in the tank (we flushed the whole fuel system to make sure). When we put it all back together the bike was still very lumpy under 2100 rpm but it seemed to run smoothly above that.
            >
            > Took the plugs out - absolutely normal and gap dead on spec.
            >
            > I double and triple checked the breather hose wasn't blocked (and I have some ancillary breather holes in the filler cap).
            >
            > I set off back home to Northumberland yesterday and, again lumpy under 2100 rpm (and although it would start easily enough it just won't idle at all with the revs wondering up and down - 'hunting' almost), all seemed well at motorway speed.
            >
            > I pulled in after 180 miles or so to fill up confident that the rest of the journey was going to be fine and that at home I'd just have to sort out the rough idle and flat spots under 2100rpm.
            >
            > BUT.
            >
            > I filled up with fuel and set off, still lumpy as anything under 2100rpm, as soon as I pulled away and it started belping and chugging, missing and stalled. Started up straight away again and I pulled away, still lumpy but running and headed out onto the M5.
            >
            > Just the same as the way down, wouldn't pull cleanly and didn't want to rev at all but, once up to motorway speed it was fine and hummed along at 4500 or so rpm. Next services, put some more Redex in but it made no difference and was like this all the way home - rubbish if I tried to accelerate but at any revs above 2100 it would sit quite happily as long as I wanted.
            >
            > 9 hours of lumpy acceleration on the motorway home - rubbish journey. Won't accelerate, everytime I slowed down (services, roundabouts on the A19 etc) it tried to cut out and was a pig to get home.
            >
            > I went out to the garage today and fired it up - started so easily (full choke, no throttle slight dab on the starter) but then wouldn't idle, lumpy acceleration and all the problems of the day before.
            >
            > SO ........ any ideas what's wrong ?
            >
            > I don't think its the crank sender as the problems aren't heat related and it never cut out fully, stalled perhaps, but never cut out.
            >
            > The fuel system must be pristine clean, we flushed it and blew it out with an air line and i put three bottle of Redex in over 1200 miles.
            >
            > Is it an electrical fault that just developed at the same time as I went onto reserve and so is the fuel system a red herring ?
            >
            > Has anyone had this type of problems and if so, what solved them ?
            >
            > Many thanks.
            >
            > Peace.
            >
            > Steve
            >
          • Ed Johnson
            A couple of idle jets are plugged, and the coils and plug wires need replacing. I d convert to the Johnson Jolt before going to the expense of the coils. *Ed
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 29, 2013
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              A couple of idle jets are plugged, and the coils and plug wires need replacing. I'd convert to the "Johnson Jolt" before going to the expense of the coils.

              Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
              On 8/29/2013 5:54 AM, Daniel Barclay wrote:
              The clue is your location and passing on to reserve. 
              
              There are several riders who never run their bike in anything other than reserve to avoid accumulating water and passing it in one lump..
              
              If you are not into the time or expense of getting the carbs serviced, then remove the fuel tank dispose of the contents (if you find rust search the posts here) open the 4 drains below the carbs and rock the bike till it empties the carbs.
              
              Maybe flush with fresh fuel or blow air through.
              
              If you are able you can examine the discharge for water droplets.
              
              Try to get the tank back on without snagging the lines and check fuel flows to the carb drains freely
              
              Dan
              
              
              
              
              
              
              --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "stevethevic" <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> wrote:
              
              Friends,
              
              Help wanted to try and sort out my 1200 Trophy (1999) as I'm stumped. For the last year the bike has run perfectly, very easy to start, great fuel economy and loads of power, in fact up to about six weeks ago it was running like a dream.
              
              The first symptom came about six weeks ago and was that I got a 'flat spot' about 1700 rpm, not much just a bit of a hiccup and I just rode round it expecting it would go after the next service. 
              
              Then about two weeks ago the bike became really rough all the way under 2100 rpm, awful to try and ride but - after 2100 rpm just as normal.
              
              This last weekend I needed to ride down to Cornwall and back, about 1100 miles or so and set off not too worried about the bike. After all, motorway speeds don't need much under 2100 rpm.
              
              All was well till I got to Bristol, about 300 miles into the journey when I needed to go onto reserve just before the fill up at a service station. Immediately, and I mean immediately the bike started to belp and chug and fart. Wouldn't rev, started to lose speed, lumpy and misfiring.
              
              I thought I'd just let it run too low and that when I filled up, and the clag from whatever fuel was causing the problems had passed, then all would be well. Just to be on the safe side I filled up and tipped in a whole bottle of Redex engine cleaner.
              
              The next 260 miles were a nightmare. The engine wouldn't rev and was lumpy, misfiring and belping and chugging UNTILL I got up to cruising speed around 4500 rpm or so. Then it was as smooth as normal, unless I tried to accelerate in which case it missed and stuttered again.
              
              When I got to Cornwall we stripped the bike down and looked at the carbs. No tears in the diaphragm, fuel flowing smoothly, absolutely no rust, dirt or clag in the tank (we flushed the whole fuel system to make sure). When we put it all back together the bike was still very lumpy under 2100 rpm but it seemed to run smoothly above that. 
              
              Took the plugs out - absolutely normal and gap dead on spec.
              
              I double and triple checked the breather hose wasn't blocked (and I have some ancillary breather holes in the filler cap).
              
              I set off back home to Northumberland yesterday and, again lumpy under 2100 rpm (and although it would start easily enough it just won't idle at all with the revs wondering up and down - 'hunting' almost), all seemed well at motorway speed.
              
              I pulled in after 180 miles or so to fill up confident that the rest of the journey was going to be fine and that at home I'd just have to sort out the rough idle and flat spots under 2100rpm. 
              
              BUT.
              
              I filled up with fuel and set off, still lumpy as anything under 2100rpm, as soon as I pulled away and it started belping and chugging, missing and stalled. Started up straight away again and I pulled away, still lumpy but running and headed out onto the M5. 
              
              Just the same as the way down, wouldn't pull cleanly and didn't want to rev at all but, once up to motorway speed it was fine and hummed along at 4500 or so rpm. Next services, put some more Redex in but it made no difference and was like this all the way home - rubbish if I tried to accelerate but at any revs above 2100 it would sit quite happily as long as I wanted.
              
              9 hours of lumpy acceleration on the motorway home - rubbish journey. Won't accelerate, everytime I slowed down (services, roundabouts on the A19 etc) it tried to cut out and was a pig to get home.
              
              I went out to the garage today and fired it up - started so easily (full choke, no throttle slight dab on the starter) but then wouldn't idle, lumpy acceleration and all the problems of the day before.
              
              SO ........ any ideas what's wrong ?
              
              I don't think its the crank sender as the problems aren't heat related and it never cut out fully, stalled perhaps, but never cut out.
              
              The fuel system must be pristine clean, we flushed it and blew it out with an air line and i put three bottle of Redex in over 1200 miles.
              
              Is it an electrical fault that just developed at the same time as I went onto reserve and so is the fuel system a red herring ?
              
              Has anyone had this type of problems and if so, what solved them ?
              
              Many thanks.
              
              Peace.
              
              Steve
              
              
              
              
              
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            • stevethevic
              Many thanks to all who ve replied, I ve now done all of the fuel related suggestions with no improvement. However, I cannot find what the Johnson Jolt is,
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 30, 2013
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                Many thanks to all who've replied, I've now done all of the 'fuel related' suggestions with no improvement. However, I cannot find what the Johnson Jolt is, the thread doesn't seem to exist under this new Yahoo groups thing - can anyone help ?


                Many thanks.


                Peace.


                Steve 



                --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <edljohnson2@...> wrote:

                A couple of idle jets are plugged, and the coils and plug wires need replacing. I'd convert to the "Johnson Jolt" before going to the expense of the coils.

                Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                On 8/29/2013 5:54 AM, Daniel Barclay wrote:
                The clue is your location and passing on to reserve. 
                
                There are several riders who never run their bike in anything other than reserve to avoid accumulating water and passing it in one lump..
                
                If you are not into the time or expense of getting the carbs serviced, then remove the fuel tank dispose of the contents (if you find rust search the posts here) open the 4 drains below the carbs and rock the bike till it empties the carbs.
                
                Maybe flush with fresh fuel or blow air through.
                
                If you are able you can examine the discharge for water droplets.
                
                Try to get the tank back on without snagging the lines and check fuel flows to the carb drains freely
                
                Dan
                
                
                
                
                
                
                 --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "stevethevic" <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> wrote:
                
                      
                Friends,
                
                Help wanted to try and sort out my 1200 Trophy (1999) as I'm stumped. For the last year the bike has run perfectly, very easy to start, great fuel economy and loads of power, in fact up to about six weeks ago it was running like a dream.
                
                The first symptom came about six weeks ago and was that I got a 'flat spot' about 1700 rpm, not much just a bit of a hiccup and I just rode round it expecting it would go after the next service. 
                
                Then about two weeks ago the bike became really rough all the way under 2100 rpm, awful to try and ride but - after 2100 rpm just as normal.
                
                This last weekend I needed to ride down to Cornwall and back, about 1100 miles or so and set off not too worried about the bike. After all, motorway speeds don't need much under 2100 rpm.
                
                All was well till I got to Bristol, about 300 miles into the journey when I needed to go onto reserve just before the fill up at a service station. Immediately, and I mean immediately the bike started to belp and chug and fart. Wouldn't rev, started to lose speed, lumpy and misfiring.
                
                I thought I'd just let it run too low and that when I filled up, and the clag from whatever fuel was causing the problems had passed, then all would be well. Just to be on the safe side I filled up and tipped in a whole bottle of Redex engine cleaner.
                
                The next 260 miles were a nightmare. The engine wouldn't rev and was lumpy, misfiring and belping and chugging UNTILL I got up to cruising speed around 4500 rpm or so. Then it was as smooth as normal, unless I tried to accelerate in which case it missed and stuttered again.
                
                When I got to Cornwall we stripped the bike down and looked at the carbs. No tears in the diaphragm, fuel flowing smoothly, absolutely no rust, dirt or clag in the tank (we flushed the whole fuel system to make sure). When we put it all back together the bike was still very lumpy under 2100 rpm but it seemed to run smoothly above that. 
                
                Took the plugs out - absolutely normal and gap dead on spec.
                
                I double and triple checked the breather hose wasn't blocked (and I have some ancillary breather holes in the filler cap).
                
                I set off back home to Northumberland yesterday and, again lumpy under 2100 rpm (and although it would start easily enough it just won't idle at all with the revs wondering up and down - 'hunting' almost), all seemed well at motorway speed.
                
                I pulled in after 180 miles or so to fill up confident that the rest of the journey was going to be fine and that at home I'd just have to sort out the rough idle and flat spots under 2100rpm. 
                
                BUT.
                
                I filled up with fuel and set off, still lumpy as anything under 2100rpm, as soon as I pulled away and it started belping and chugging, missing and stalled. Started up straight away again and I pulled away, still lumpy but running and headed out onto the M5. 
                
                Just the same as the way down, wouldn't pull cleanly and didn't want to rev at all but, once up to motorway speed it was fine and hummed along at 4500 or so rpm. Next services, put some more Redex in but it made no difference and was like this all the way home - rubbish if I tried to accelerate but at any revs above 2100 it would sit quite happily as long as I wanted.
                
                9 hours of lumpy acceleration on the motorway home - rubbish journey. Won't accelerate, everytime I slowed down (services, roundabouts on the A19 etc) it tried to cut out and was a pig to get home.
                
                I went out to the garage today and fired it up - started so easily (full choke, no throttle slight dab on the starter) but then wouldn't idle, lumpy acceleration and all the problems of the day before.
                
                SO ........ any ideas what's wrong ?
                
                I don't think its the crank sender as the problems aren't heat related and it never cut out fully, stalled perhaps, but never cut out.
                
                The fuel system must be pristine clean, we flushed it and blew it out with an air line and i put three bottle of Redex in over 1200 miles.
                
                Is it an electrical fault that just developed at the same time as I went onto reserve and so is the fuel system a red herring ?
                
                Has anyone had this type of problems and if so, what solved them ?
                
                Many thanks.
                
                Peace.
                
                Steve
                
                
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              • stevethevic
                Hi Joan, Many thanks - loads to go at now I ve played around with the fuel system. I do wonder if the coils are going, someone suggested the Johnson Jolt but I
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 30, 2013
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                  Hi Joan,


                  Many thanks - loads to go at now I've played around with the fuel system.


                  I do wonder if the coils are going, someone suggested the Johnson Jolt but I can't find out what that actually is ?


                  Many thanks again.


                  Peace.


                  Steve 



                  --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <edljohnson2@...> wrote:

                  A couple of idle jets are plugged, and the coils and plug wires need replacing. I'd convert to the "Johnson Jolt" before going to the expense of the coils.

                  Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                  On 8/29/2013 5:54 AM, Daniel Barclay wrote:
                  The clue is your location and passing on to reserve. 
                  
                  There are several riders who never run their bike in anything other than reserve to avoid accumulating water and passing it in one lump..
                  
                  If you are not into the time or expense of getting the carbs serviced, then remove the fuel tank dispose of the contents (if you find rust search the posts here) open the 4 drains below the carbs and rock the bike till it empties the carbs.
                  
                  Maybe flush with fresh fuel or blow air through.
                  
                  If you are able you can examine the discharge for water droplets.
                  
                  Try to get the tank back on without snagging the lines and check fuel flows to the carb drains freely
                  
                  Dan
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                   --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "stevethevic" <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> wrote:
                  
                        
                  Friends,
                  
                  Help wanted to try and sort out my 1200 Trophy (1999) as I'm stumped. For the last year the bike has run perfectly, very easy to start, great fuel economy and loads of power, in fact up to about six weeks ago it was running like a dream.
                  
                  The first symptom came about six weeks ago and was that I got a 'flat spot' about 1700 rpm, not much just a bit of a hiccup and I just rode round it expecting it would go after the next service. 
                  
                  Then about two weeks ago the bike became really rough all the way under 2100 rpm, awful to try and ride but - after 2100 rpm just as normal.
                  
                  This last weekend I needed to ride down to Cornwall and back, about 1100 miles or so and set off not too worried about the bike. After all, motorway speeds don't need much under 2100 rpm.
                  
                  All was well till I got to Bristol, about 300 miles into the journey when I needed to go onto reserve just before the fill up at a service station. Immediately, and I mean immediately the bike started to belp and chug and fart. Wouldn't rev, started to lose speed, lumpy and misfiring.
                  
                  I thought I'd just let it run too low and that when I filled up, and the clag from whatever fuel was causing the problems had passed, then all would be well. Just to be on the safe side I filled up and tipped in a whole bottle of Redex engine cleaner.
                  
                  The next 260 miles were a nightmare. The engine wouldn't rev and was lumpy, misfiring and belping and chugging UNTILL I got up to cruising speed around 4500 rpm or so. Then it was as smooth as normal, unless I tried to accelerate in which case it missed and stuttered again.
                  
                  When I got to Cornwall we stripped the bike down and looked at the carbs. No tears in the diaphragm, fuel flowing smoothly, absolutely no rust, dirt or clag in the tank (we flushed the whole fuel system to make sure). When we put it all back together the bike was still very lumpy under 2100 rpm but it seemed to run smoothly above that. 
                  
                  Took the plugs out - absolutely normal and gap dead on spec.
                  
                  I double and triple checked the breather hose wasn't blocked (and I have some ancillary breather holes in the filler cap).
                  
                  I set off back home to Northumberland yesterday and, again lumpy under 2100 rpm (and although it would start easily enough it just won't idle at all with the revs wondering up and down - 'hunting' almost), all seemed well at motorway speed.
                  
                  I pulled in after 180 miles or so to fill up confident that the rest of the journey was going to be fine and that at home I'd just have to sort out the rough idle and flat spots under 2100rpm. 
                  
                  BUT.
                  
                  I filled up with fuel and set off, still lumpy as anything under 2100rpm, as soon as I pulled away and it started belping and chugging, missing and stalled. Started up straight away again and I pulled away, still lumpy but running and headed out onto the M5. 
                  
                  Just the same as the way down, wouldn't pull cleanly and didn't want to rev at all but, once up to motorway speed it was fine and hummed along at 4500 or so rpm. Next services, put some more Redex in but it made no difference and was like this all the way home - rubbish if I tried to accelerate but at any revs above 2100 it would sit quite happily as long as I wanted.
                  
                  9 hours of lumpy acceleration on the motorway home - rubbish journey. Won't accelerate, everytime I slowed down (services, roundabouts on the A19 etc) it tried to cut out and was a pig to get home.
                  
                  I went out to the garage today and fired it up - started so easily (full choke, no throttle slight dab on the starter) but then wouldn't idle, lumpy acceleration and all the problems of the day before.
                  
                  SO ........ any ideas what's wrong ?
                  
                  I don't think its the crank sender as the problems aren't heat related and it never cut out fully, stalled perhaps, but never cut out.
                  
                  The fuel system must be pristine clean, we flushed it and blew it out with an air line and i put three bottle of Redex in over 1200 miles.
                  
                  Is it an electrical fault that just developed at the same time as I went onto reserve and so is the fuel system a red herring ?
                  
                  Has anyone had this type of problems and if so, what solved them ?
                  
                  Many thanks.
                  
                  Peace.
                  
                  Steve
                  
                  
                  ------------------------------------
                  
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                • stevethevic
                  Hi Martin, Many thanks for the suggestions. I can t find an air leak and opening the choke makes no difference. When we stripped the carbs I double checked
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 30, 2013
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                    Hi Martin,


                    Many thanks for the suggestions.


                    I can't find an air leak and opening the choke makes no difference. When we stripped the carbs I double checked that the air caps were on the three carbs no making use of them, the fourth feeding the fuel petcock.


                    The alternator is fine, all voltages check out and the lights are very bright with no flicker. In fact on the motorway I turned all the lights off a few times to see if there was a voltage drop that was affecting the spark but it made no difference.


                    I do wonder if it's an electrical problem as, short of fully stripping the carbs I've now cleaned, tightened, polished and tweeked everything in the fuel system !


                    People keep suggesting the Johnson Jolt but I can't actually find out what it is, do you know or have a link ?


                    Many thanks again.


                    Peace.


                    Steve


                     



                    --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <martin.jacques@...> wrote:

                    Steve,

                     

                    From your description, particularly the hunting idle and the change of behaviour at a fairly hard point (2,100rpm), it sounds to me like an air leak somewhere causing the bike to run lean.

                     

                    Does the bike behave any better if you open the choke slightly (richening the fuel mixture) during the rough running part. If so, I’d be looking for splits in any of the pipework between airbox and the cylinder head, or missing vacuum caps on any of the carbs. You may find spraying something flammable (like WD40) whilst the engine is running will increase the idle speed as the WD40 is sucked in via the hole/crack and burned.

                     

                    Another possibility is a weak alternator that does not provide sufficient voltage to power the coils until the bike reaches the magical 2,100rpm. I would suggest a 5 minute check of battery voltage at various RPM with a multimeter would be worth doing – should be 13.2 ish Volts at idle, moving fairly quickly up to 14ish Volts when the bike is higher than idle.


                    Martin.

                    2010 1400GTR (C14 over in the US)

                    Ex. 2003 1200

                    Bath, UK.

                     

                  • adeux60@ymail.com
                    ... Steve, From your description, particularly the hunting idle and the change of behaviour at a fairly hard point (2,100rpm), it sounds to me like an air leak
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 30, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment

                       



                      --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> wrote:

                      Hi Martin,


                      Many thanks for the suggestions.


                      I can't find an air leak and opening the choke makes no difference. When we stripped the carbs I double checked that the air caps were on the three carbs no making use of them, the fourth feeding the fuel petcock.


                      The alternator is fine, all voltages check out and the lights are very bright with no flicker. In fact on the motorway I turned all the lights off a few times to see if there was a voltage drop that was affecting the spark but it made no difference.


                      I do wonder if it's an electrical problem as, short of fully stripping the carbs I've now cleaned, tightened, polished and tweeked everything in the fuel system !


                      People keep suggesting the Johnson Jolt but I can't actually find out what it is, do you know or have a link ?


                      Many thanks again.


                      Peace.


                      Steve


                       



                      --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <martin.jacques@...> wrote:

                      Steve,

                       

                      From your description, particularly the hunting idle and the change of behaviour at a fairly hard point (2,100rpm), it sounds to me like an air leak somewhere causing the bike to run lean.

                       

                      Does the bike behave any better if you open the choke slightly (richening the fuel mixture) during the rough running part. If so, I’d be looking for splits in any of the pipework between airbox and the cylinder head, or missing vacuum caps on any of the carbs. You may find spraying something flammable (like WD40) whilst the engine is running will increase the idle speed as the WD40 is sucked in via the hole/crack and burned.

                       

                      Another possibility is a weak alternator that does not provide sufficient voltage to power the coils until the bike reaches the magical 2,100rpm. I would suggest a 5 minute check of battery voltage at various RPM with a multimeter would be worth doing – should be 13.2 ish Volts at idle, moving fairly quickly up to 14ish Volts when the bike is higher than idle.


                      Martin.

                      2010 1400GTR (C14 over in the US)

                      Ex. 2003 1200

                      Bath, UK.

                       

                    • adeux60@ymail.com
                      iPad sucks on this new format --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Martin, Many thanks for the suggestions. I can t find
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 30, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment

                         iPad sucks on this new format



                        --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> wrote:

                        Hi Martin,


                        Many thanks for the suggestions.


                        I can't find an air leak and opening the choke makes no difference. When we stripped the carbs I double checked that the air caps were on the three carbs no making use of them, the fourth feeding the fuel petcock.


                        The alternator is fine, all voltages check out and the lights are very bright with no flicker. In fact on the motorway I turned all the lights off a few times to see if there was a voltage drop that was affecting the spark but it made no difference.


                        I do wonder if it's an electrical problem as, short of fully stripping the carbs I've now cleaned, tightened, polished and tweeked everything in the fuel system !


                        People keep suggesting the Johnson Jolt but I can't actually find out what it is, do you know or have a link ?


                        Many thanks again.


                        Peace.


                        Steve


                         



                        --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <martin.jacques@...> wrote:

                        Steve,

                         

                        From your description, particularly the hunting idle and the change of behaviour at a fairly hard point (2,100rpm), it sounds to me like an air leak somewhere causing the bike to run lean.

                         

                        Does the bike behave any better if you open the choke slightly (richening the fuel mixture) during the rough running part. If so, I’d be looking for splits in any of the pipework between airbox and the cylinder head, or missing vacuum caps on any of the carbs. You may find spraying something flammable (like WD40) whilst the engine is running will increase the idle speed as the WD40 is sucked in via the hole/crack and burned.

                         

                        Another possibility is a weak alternator that does not provide sufficient voltage to power the coils until the bike reaches the magical 2,100rpm. I would suggest a 5 minute check of battery voltage at various RPM with a multimeter would be worth doing – should be 13.2 ish Volts at idle, moving fairly quickly up to 14ish Volts when the bike is higher than idle.


                        Martin.

                        2010 1400GTR (C14 over in the US)

                        Ex. 2003 1200

                        Bath, UK.

                         

                      • adeux60@ymail.com
                        I ll try to answer on a pc as ipad is impossible. i conclude it is still water - there have been heavy rains in the west - you ra`n low on fuel and you passed
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 30, 2013
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                          I'll try to answer on a pc as ipad is impossible. 


                          i conclude it is still water - there have been heavy rains in the west - you ra`n low on fuel and you passed onto reserve and your problems got worse. As far as I am aware the tank isnt connected electrically to the ignition system. QED. Some riders (Rod) have reported water taking up the entire reserve of the tank and I can add my usual anecdotes but once or twice is enough.


                          Coils if necessary to check these then go straight to a multimeter - the manuals available specify quite clearly the range of resistances that are workable - outside of these resistances you have a guarantee that it is the coils


                          Johnson jolt makes up for a voltage drop on the common line to the ignitor and the coils (positive on both) to require the JJ you would do well to measure voltage from battery negative to coil positive (assuming your coils are the correct way around) If your voltages tumble when you crank to "say" 6-8 volts then you will have trouble starting, running reliably etc. I did the JJ and subsequently removed it when I found a newer ignitor solved the voltage loss. I am of the opinion (discussing this with Joan(electrical wiz) and my own experience that when ignitor does get OLD then voltage drops can become apparent. the JJ involves rigging a relay to supply a fresh 12v to the "ignition system positive" (via the coils) but switched/signalled by the "ignition switch".


                          If you want to test this (JJ)  you can run a 12v from the battery to the coil positive - if it runs better then you are suffering voltage drops in your ignition system.


                          There is another variant to the JJ - Call it the DJ - I wired the extra 12v feed to come on when the starter was operated - it worked - the bike started and subsequently stalled one second after my finger came of the starter - it proved the need for the JJ but I was worried (needlessly) about cooking my ignitor with the shared 12v 


                          As my post covers the main reasons for misfires I will add the last one I have suffered too - the ignition pickup coil can fail when hot (very symptomatic) so when cool again it runs - again a resistance check will tell you if it is out of range (particularly if you notice change when you heat it manually)




                          --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <adeux60@...> wrote:

                           iPad sucks on this new format



                          --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> wrote:

                          Hi Martin,


                          Many thanks for the suggestions.


                          I can't find an air leak and opening the choke makes no difference. When we stripped the carbs I double checked that the air caps were on the three carbs no making use of them, the fourth feeding the fuel petcock.


                          The alternator is fine, all voltages check out and the lights are very bright with no flicker. In fact on the motorway I turned all the lights off a few times to see if there was a voltage drop that was affecting the spark but it made no difference.


                          I do wonder if it's an electrical problem as, short of fully stripping the carbs I've now cleaned, tightened, polished and tweeked everything in the fuel system !


                          People keep suggesting the Johnson Jolt but I can't actually find out what it is, do you know or have a link ?


                          Many thanks again.


                          Peace.


                          Steve


                           



                          --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <martin.jacques@...> wrote:

                          Steve,

                           

                          From your description, particularly the hunting idle and the change of behaviour at a fairly hard point (2,100rpm), it sounds to me like an air leak somewhere causing the bike to run lean.

                           

                          Does the bike behave any better if you open the choke slightly (richening the fuel mixture) during the rough running part. If so, I’d be looking for splits in any of the pipework between airbox and the cylinder head, or missing vacuum caps on any of the carbs. You may find spraying something flammable (like WD40) whilst the engine is running will increase the idle speed as the WD40 is sucked in via the hole/crack and burned.

                           

                          Another possibility is a weak alternator that does not provide sufficient voltage to power the coils until the bike reaches the magical 2,100rpm. I would suggest a 5 minute check of battery voltage at various RPM with a multimeter would be worth doing – should be 13.2 ish Volts at idle, moving fairly quickly up to 14ish Volts when the bike is higher than idle.


                          Martin.

                          2010 1400GTR (C14 over in the US)

                          Ex. 2003 1200

                          Bath, UK.

                           

                        • djacarr@sky.com
                          Have you checked the fuel flow through the petcock?   A couple of years ago I was also struggling to resolve poor running issues with my 1994 Trophy 1200. I
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 30, 2013
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                            Have you checked the fuel flow through the petcock?
                             
                            A couple of years ago I was also struggling to resolve poor running issues with my 1994 Trophy 1200. I pretty much replaced all the carb internals (those that showed significant wear anyway) - needles, diffusor tubes, slides, guides... After finding a seized mixture screw in one carb I obtained some used carbs and moved all the new stuff to them.
                             
                            I also fitted Nology coils.
                             
                            I was still having problems with bogging down on hard acceleration. When I removed the tank to investigate further I decided to drain it to make it a little easier to move around.
                             
                            It was then that I found that fuel was only coming out of one feed, the other was just dribbling. I shook the tank and the flows switched over!
                             
                            I replaced the petcock and the problem was resolved. When I took the old petcock apart all the insides had pretty much disintegrated.
                             
                            Following recent performance issues I have just replaced the crank sensor.
                             
                            Just a thought.
                             
                            David

                            From: "revd.steve.wilkinson@..." <revd.steve.wilkinson@...>
                            To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, 30 August 2013, 15:24
                            Subject: RE: RE: [TriumphTrophy] Rough running - but not all the time ............ driving me nuts
                             
                            Hi Martin,

                            Many thanks for the suggestions.

                            I can't find an air leak and opening the choke makes no difference. When we stripped the carbs I double checked that the air caps were on the three carbs no making use of them, the fourth feeding the fuel petcock.

                            The alternator is fine, all voltages check out and the lights are very bright with no flicker. In fact on the motorway I turned all the lights off a few times to see if there was a voltage drop that was affecting the spark but it made no difference.

                            I do wonder if it's an electrical problem as, short of fully stripping the carbs I've now cleaned, tightened, polished and tweeked everything in the fuel system !

                            People keep suggesting the Johnson Jolt but I can't actually find out what it is, do you know or have a link ?

                            Many thanks again.

                            Peace.

                            Steve

                             
                            --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <martin.jacques@...> wrote:
                            Steve,
                             
                            From your description, particularly the hunting idle and the change of behaviour at a fairly hard point (2,100rpm), it sounds to me like an air leak somewhere causing the bike to run lean.
                             
                            Does the bike behave any better if you open the choke slightly (richening the fuel mixture) during the rough running part. If so, I’d be looking for splits in any of the pipework between airbox and the cylinder head, or missing vacuum caps on any of the carbs. You may find spraying something flammable (like WD40) whilst the engine is running will increase the idle speed as the WD40 is sucked in via the hole/crack and burned.
                             
                            Another possibility is a weak alternator that does not provide sufficient voltage to power the coils until the bike reaches the magical 2,100rpm. I would suggest a 5 minute check of battery voltage at various RPM with a multimeter would be worth doing – should be 13.2 ish Volts at idle, moving fairly quickly up to 14ish Volts when the bike is higher than idle.

                            Martin.
                            2010 1400GTR (C14 over in the US)
                            Ex. 2003 1200
                            Bath, UK.
                             
                          • stevethevic
                            Hi David, Many thanks, I ve not tried this. I did take the petcock off, strip it and clean it but I didn t actually check all was flowing well before putting
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 30, 2013
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                              Hi David,


                              Many thanks, I've not tried this. I did take the petcock off, strip it and clean it but I didn't actually check all was flowing well before putting it back on the bike ..............


                              Many thanks


                              Peace


                              Steve 



                              --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <djacarr@...> wrote:

                              Have you checked the fuel flow through the petcock?
                               
                              A couple of years ago I was also struggling to resolve poor running issues with my 1994 Trophy 1200. I pretty much replaced all the carb internals (those that showed significant wear anyway) - needles, diffusor tubes, slides, guides... After finding a seized mixture screw in one carb I obtained some used carbs and moved all the new stuff to them.
                               
                              I also fitted Nology coils.
                               
                              I was still having problems with bogging down on hard acceleration. When I removed the tank to investigate further I decided to drain it to make it a little easier to move around.
                               
                              It was then that I found that fuel was only coming out of one feed, the other was just dribbling. I shook the tank and the flows switched over!
                               
                              I replaced the petcock and the problem was resolved. When I took the old petcock apart all the insides had pretty much disintegrated.
                               
                              Following recent performance issues I have just replaced the crank sensor.
                               
                              Just a thought.
                               
                              David

                              From: "revd.steve.wilkinson@..." <revd.steve.wilkinson@...>
                              To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, 30 August 2013, 15:24
                              Subject: RE: RE: [TriumphTrophy] Rough running - but not all the time ............ driving me nuts
                               
                              Hi Martin,

                              Many thanks for the suggestions.

                              I can't find an air leak and opening the choke makes no difference. When we stripped the carbs I double checked that the air caps were on the three carbs no making use of them, the fourth feeding the fuel petcock.

                              The alternator is fine, all voltages check out and the lights are very bright with no flicker. In fact on the motorway I turned all the lights off a few times to see if there was a voltage drop that was affecting the spark but it made no difference.

                              I do wonder if it's an electrical problem as, short of fully stripping the carbs I've now cleaned, tightened, polished and tweeked everything in the fuel system !

                              People keep suggesting the Johnson Jolt but I can't actually find out what it is, do you know or have a link ?

                              Many thanks again.

                              Peace.

                              Steve

                               
                              --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <martin.jacques@...> wrote:
                              Steve,
                               
                              From your description, particularly the hunting idle and the change of behaviour at a fairly hard point (2,100rpm), it sounds to me like an air leak somewhere causing the bike to run lean.
                               
                              Does the bike behave any better if you open the choke slightly (richening the fuel mixture) during the rough running part. If so, I’d be looking for splits in any of the pipework between airbox and the cylinder head, or missing vacuum caps on any of the carbs. You may find spraying something flammable (like WD40) whilst the engine is running will increase the idle speed as the WD40 is sucked in via the hole/crack and burned.
                               
                              Another possibility is a weak alternator that does not provide sufficient voltage to power the coils until the bike reaches the magical 2,100rpm. I would suggest a 5 minute check of battery voltage at various RPM with a multimeter would be worth doing – should be 13.2 ish Volts at idle, moving fairly quickly up to 14ish Volts when the bike is higher than idle.

                              Martin.
                              2010 1400GTR (C14 over in the US)
                              Ex. 2003 1200
                              Bath, UK.
                               
                            • Jason Hart
                              If you are getting water in the tank when it rains its most likely the drain from the tank filling area that is blocked. Happens a lot ... believe me I learned
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 30, 2013
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                                If you are getting water in the tank when it rains its most likely the drain from the tank filling area that is blocked. Happens a lot ... believe me I learned the hard way. Unblock it with a piece of braided steel wire (garage door wire works great) attached to the end of a drill. Flush with WD 40 or similar until you see it drip out the bottom ... its were the rubber hose leaves the tank to drain on the ground (remove this when doing the clean out).  Blow air through everything and make sure rubber hose is routed so it wont kink. Since I've done this with the occasional maintenance check ... no more issues even when riding in the rain.
                                 Jason
                                1994 Trident 900 - 117,000km


                                From: "adeux60@..." <adeux60@...>
                                To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 11:57:39 AM
                                Subject: [TriumphTrophy] RE: Rough running - but not all the time ............ driving me nuts

                                 
                                I'll try to answer on a pc as ipad is impossible. 

                                i conclude it is still water - there have been heavy rains in the west - you ra`n low on fuel and you passed onto reserve and your problems got worse. As far as I am aware the tank isnt connected electrically to the ignition system. QED. Some riders (Rod) have reported water taking up the entire reserve of the tank and I can add my usual anecdotes but once or twice is enough.

                                Coils if necessary to check these then go straight to a multimeter - the manuals available specify quite clearly the range of resistances that are workable - outside of these resistances you have a guarantee that it is the coils

                                Johnson jolt makes up for a voltage drop on the common line to the ignitor and the coils (positive on both) to require the JJ you would do well to measure voltage from battery negative to coil positive (assuming your coils are the correct way around) If your voltages tumble when you crank to "say" 6-8 volts then you will have trouble starting, running reliably etc. I did the JJ and subsequently removed it when I found a newer ignitor solved the voltage loss. I am of the opinion (discussing this with Joan(electrical wiz) and my own experience that when ignitor does get OLD then voltage drops can become apparent. the JJ involves rigging a relay to supply a fresh 12v to the "ignition system positive" (via the coils) but switched/signalled by the "ignition switch".

                                If you want to test this (JJ)  you can run a 12v from the battery to the coil positive - if it runs better then you are suffering voltage drops in your ignition system.

                                There is another variant to the JJ - Call it the DJ - I wired the extra 12v feed to come on when the starter was operated - it worked - the bike started and subsequently stalled one second after my finger came of the starter - it proved the need for the JJ but I was worried (needlessly) about cooking my ignitor with the shared 12v 

                                As my post covers the main reasons for misfires I will add the last one I have suffered too - the ignition pickup coil can fail when hot (very symptomatic) so when cool again it runs - again a resistance check will tell you if it is out of range (particularly if you notice change when you heat it manually)



                                --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <adeux60@...> wrote:

                                 iPad sucks on this new format


                                --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> wrote:

                                Hi Martin,

                                Many thanks for the suggestions.

                                I can't find an air leak and opening the choke makes no difference. When we stripped the carbs I double checked that the air caps were on the three carbs no making use of them, the fourth feeding the fuel petcock.

                                The alternator is fine, all voltages check out and the lights are very bright with no flicker. In fact on the motorway I turned all the lights off a few times to see if there was a voltage drop that was affecting the spark but it made no difference.

                                I do wonder if it's an electrical problem as, short of fully stripping the carbs I've now cleaned, tightened, polished and tweeked everything in the fuel system !

                                People keep suggesting the Johnson Jolt but I can't actually find out what it is, do you know or have a link ?

                                Many thanks again.

                                Peace.

                                Steve

                                 


                                --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <martin.jacques@...> wrote:

                                Steve,
                                 
                                From your description, particularly the hunting idle and the change of behaviour at a fairly hard point (2,100rpm), it sounds to me like an air leak somewhere causing the bike to run lean.
                                 
                                Does the bike behave any better if you open the choke slightly (richening the fuel mixture) during the rough running part. If so, I’d be looking for splits in any of the pipework between airbox and the cylinder head, or missing vacuum caps on any of the carbs. You may find spraying something flammable (like WD40) whilst the engine is running will increase the idle speed as the WD40 is sucked in via the hole/crack and burned.
                                 
                                Another possibility is a weak alternator that does not provide sufficient voltage to power the coils until the bike reaches the magical 2,100rpm. I would suggest a 5 minute check of battery voltage at various RPM with a multimeter would be worth doing – should be 13.2 ish Volts at idle, moving fairly quickly up to 14ish Volts when the bike is higher than idle.

                                Martin.
                                2010 1400GTR (C14 over in the US)
                                Ex. 2003 1200
                                Bath, UK.
                                 


                              • joan tabberer
                                search for Katana modification as well. essentially it s a process to bypass the high current wiring in the original wiring loom, with new wiring from the
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 1, 2013
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                                  search for Katana modification as well. essentially it's a process to bypass the high current wiring in the original wiring loom, with new wiring from the battery direct to het coil +ve terminal, via a relay, and controlling the relay with the old wirink to preserve the ignition cutout capability.
                                   
                                  regards Joan
                                                                                                                
                                   
                                • stevethevic
                                  Hi Joan, Many thanks, I ve found it now. Having virtually rebuilt the fuel system from tank to carbs I m fairly sure it is an electrical problem. The missing,
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 2, 2013
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                                    Hi Joan,


                                    Many thanks, I've found it now.


                                    Having virtually rebuilt the fuel system from tank to carbs I'm fairly sure it is an electrical problem. The missing, belping and stuttering as I rev seems to me more like an irregular misfire, as if the timing kept slipping in and out. From the posts on here the most likely reason for this appears to be a coil, or the coils, breaking down so I've ordered a second hand set to try them out (cheapest way of getting 'new' coils was EBay). If this cures the problem then I'll order a new set from MotoBins when I can afford them.  


                                    A couple of people suggested it could be the crank sensor and I've read widely of problems when they break down. However, most people report cutting out when warm and then restarting when cold, as if a solder joint was expanding with the heat of the engine and breaking the circuit, but I don't have these symptoms. 


                                    Do you have any thoughts on this as I have some long rides to do in the next couple of months ?


                                    Many thanks.


                                    Peace.


                                    Steve






                                    --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                    search for Katana modification as well. essentially it's a process to bypass the high current wiring in the original wiring loom, with new wiring from the battery direct to het coil +ve terminal, via a relay, and controlling the relay with the old wirink to preserve the ignition cutout capability.
                                     
                                    regards Joan
                                                                                                                  
                                     
                                  • Ed Johnson
                                    Hi Steve; I agree with Bob Clark regarding the used coils. Here is the link to the Johnson Jolt which was named that more as a joke than anything else. The
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 2, 2013
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                                      Hi Steve;
                                          I agree with Bob Clark regarding the used coils.  Here is the link to the "Johnson Jolt" which was named that more as a joke than anything else. The modification is shown in great detail here and will make a world of difference in the way your bike runs, starts, and performs. It was "borrowed" from another site; http://katriders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=116991 . I didn't invent it.
                                      Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                                       
                                       
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                                    • Ed Johnson
                                      This principle is based on the same basis that causes the coils to fail. Bad copper wire. The coils on 23+ crimps and connections down the line from the
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Sep 2, 2013
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                                            This principle is based on the same basis that causes the coils to fail. Bad copper wire. The coils on 23+ crimps and connections down the line from the battery. Each crimp and connection adds resistance. Resistance adds voltage drop. In my case when I measured the + voltage to coils when the starter was turning the engine over it was less than 8 volts and that was with a fully charged new battery. If you are lucky and release the starter at the precise moment the coil voltage can take a leap an the engine will start. With the mod my coil voltage was 11+V during turn over. Starting and low speed running has never been this good since I've owned the bike. It may have been that good when the bike was new but that was a long time ago and I live in a high corrosive environment.
                                            It's easy to do, cheap, works wonders! Do this first Steve and then save your money for the Motobins! Don't ask me how I know this! [You could find out easily enough if the archives weren't so difficult to search past posts! :-( ]
                                        HTH
                                        Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                                        On 9/2/2013 8:00 AM, Ed Johnson wrote:
                                        Hi Steve;
                                            I agree with Bob Clark regarding the used coils.  Here is the link to the "Johnson Jolt" which was named that more as a joke than anything else. The modification is shown in great detail here and will make a world of difference in the way your bike runs, starts, and performs. It was "borrowed" from another site; http://katriders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=116991 . I didn't invent it.
                                        Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                                         
                                         
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                                      • triumphtrophy12
                                        Ed: Did you do with with One relay for both coils or did you do a separate assembly for each coil? I ve not done it with the 2001 Trophy 1200 as it starts and
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 2, 2013
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                                          Ed:

                                          Did you do with with One relay for both coils or did you do a separate
                                          assembly for each coil?

                                          I've not done it with the 2001 Trophy 1200 as it starts and runs great
                                          ever since I installed the new Nology Coils.

                                          The 1996 Thunderbird 900 has always been a slow starter. In general the
                                          900 doesn't seem to spin as fast on the starter. The alternator also
                                          putts out less and in general has a weaker electrical sysem. I think the
                                          900 would be an excellent candidate for the mod.

                                          The 900 has 3 separate coils.

                                          (I think this mod would be great on Jet Ski's also)

                                          Thanks,

                                          Bob Clark
                                          01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
                                          96 BRG Thunderbird 900
                                          Jacksonville, FL
                                        • Ed Johnson
                                          Bob; Use a 30amp relay and chain all the positive feeds from one relay. Use one of the original feeds to key the relay and tape off the rest. I put my relay
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Sep 2, 2013
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                                            Bob;
                                                Use a 30amp relay and chain all the positive feeds from one relay. Use one of the original feeds to key the relay and tape off the rest. I put my relay behind the coils under the tank close to the feeds. Others have put the relay under the seat away from the heat which might be a better idea.
                                            HTH
                                            Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                                            On 9/2/2013 9:25 AM, apsllp@... wrote:
                                            Ed:
                                            
                                            Did you do with with One relay for both coils or did you do a separate 
                                            assembly for each coil?
                                            
                                            I've not done it with the 2001 Trophy 1200 as it starts and runs great 
                                            ever since I installed the new Nology Coils.
                                            
                                            The 1996 Thunderbird 900 has always been a slow starter. In general the 
                                            900 doesn't seem to spin as fast on the starter. The alternator also 
                                            putts out less and in general has a weaker electrical sysem. I think the 
                                            900 would be an excellent candidate for the mod.
                                            
                                            The 900 has 3 separate coils.
                                            
                                            (I think this mod would be great on Jet Ski's also)
                                            
                                            Thanks,
                                            
                                            Bob Clark
                                            01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
                                            96 BRG Thunderbird 900
                                            Jacksonville, FL
                                            
                                            
                                            
                                            
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                                          • stevethevic
                                            Hi Ed, Many thanks - I understand the principle now and will have a go later this week when the diary clears a bit. Many thanks again. Peace. Steve --- In
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Sep 2, 2013
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                                              Hi Ed,


                                              Many thanks - I understand the principle now and will have a go later this week when the diary clears a bit.


                                              Many thanks again.


                                              Peace.


                                              Steve 



                                              --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                  This principle is based on the same basis that causes the coils to fail. Bad copper wire. The coils on 23+ crimps and connections down the line from the battery. Each crimp and connection adds resistance. Resistance adds voltage drop. In my case when I measured the + voltage to coils when the starter was turning the engine over it was less than 8 volts and that was with a fully charged new battery. If you are lucky and release the starter at the precise moment the coil voltage can take a leap an the engine will start. With the mod my coil voltage was 11+V during turn over. Starting and low speed running has never been this good since I've owned the bike. It may have been that good when the bike was new but that was a long time ago and I live in a high corrosive environment.
                                                  It's easy to do, cheap, works wonders! Do this first Steve and then save your money for the Motobins! Don't ask me how I know this! [You could find out easily enough if the archives weren't so difficult to search past posts! :-( ]
                                              HTH
                                              Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                                              On 9/2/2013 8:00 AM, Ed Johnson wrote:
                                              Hi Steve;
                                                  I agree with Bob Clark regarding the used coils.  Here is the link to the "Johnson Jolt" which was named that more as a joke than anything else. The modification is shown in great detail here and will make a world of difference in the way your bike runs, starts, and performs. It was "borrowed" from another site; http://katriders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=116991 . I didn't invent it.
                                              Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                                               
                                               
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                                            • adeux60@ymail.com
                                              the positive coil feeds are linked by a crimp in the main wiring harness --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Ed, Many
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Sep 2, 2013
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                                                the positive coil feeds are linked by a crimp in the main wiring harness 



                                                --- In triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com, <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> wrote:

                                                Hi Ed,


                                                Many thanks - I understand the principle now and will have a go later this week when the diary clears a bit.


                                                Many thanks again.


                                                Peace.


                                                Steve 



                                                --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                 Â Ã‚  This principle is based on the same basis that causes the coils to fail. Bad copper wire. The coils on 23+ crimps and connections down the line from the battery. Each crimp and connection adds resistance. Resistance adds voltage drop. In my case when I measured the + voltage to coils when the starter was turning the engine over it was less than 8 volts and that was with a fully charged new battery. If you are lucky and release the starter at the precise moment the coil voltage can take a leap an the engine will start. With the mod my coil voltage was 11+V during turn over. Starting and low speed running has never been this good since I've owned the bike. It may have been that good when the bike was new but that was a long time ago and I live in a high corrosive environment.
                                                 Â Ã‚  It's easy to do, cheap, works wonders! Do this first Steve and then save your money for the Motobins! Don't ask me how I know this! [You could find out easily enough if the archives weren't so difficult to search past posts! :-( ]
                                                HTH
                                                Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                                                On 9/2/2013 8:00 AM, Ed Johnson wrote:
                                                Hi Steve;
                                                 Â Ã‚  I agree with Bob Clark regarding the used coils.  Here is the link to the "Johnson Jolt" which was named that more as a joke than anything else. The modification is shown in great detail here and will make a world of difference in the way your bike runs, starts, and performs. It was "borrowed" from another site; http://katriders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=116991 . I didn't invent it.
                                                Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                                                 
                                                 
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                                              • joan tabberer
                                                CHeers Steve. I also tried second hand coils, they were also gubbed... of course the person selling them was not wanting to accept hat tthey were faulty, and
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Sep 2, 2013
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                                                  CHeers Steve.
                                                  I also tried second hand coils, they were also gubbed... of course the person selling them was not wanting to accept hat tthey were faulty, and went as far as to suggest that I had simply intended to swap my old coils for his good ones.
                                                  so I reminded him that he signed his coils in yellow paint, and should be able to easily recognise them again, and I sent him all six faulty coils back, in the hopes that he would realise that there was no way I was trying to pull the wool over his eyes, and that I really would like a full refund!
                                                  I got the refund!
                                                   
                                                  :) Joan
                                                  I
                                                                                                                                
                                                   
                                                • stevethevic
                                                  I like it, very much ! --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, wrote: CHeers Steve. I also tried second hand coils, they were
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Sep 3, 2013
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                                                    I like it, very much ! 



                                                    --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                    CHeers Steve.
                                                    I also tried second hand coils, they were also gubbed... of course the person selling them was not wanting to accept hat tthey were faulty, and went as far as to suggest that I had simply intended to swap my old coils for his good ones.
                                                    so I reminded him that he signed his coils in yellow paint, and should be able to easily recognise them again, and I sent him all six faulty coils back, in the hopes that he would realise that there was no way I was trying to pull the wool over his eyes, and that I really would like a full refund!
                                                    I got the refund!
                                                     
                                                    :) Joan
                                                    I
                                                                                                                                  
                                                     
                                                  • Ed Johnson
                                                    Steve; There is also the possibility of getting a bad coil when buying new as well. In fact I don t think there is anyone on this forum that has had more bad
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Sep 3, 2013
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                                                      Steve; There is also the possibility of getting a bad coil when buying new as well. In fact I don't think there is anyone on this forum that has had more bad luck with a bad running Trophy than me! I tried new coils on mine and it didn't fix my problem so at the suggestion of someone on the forum I checked the pipes to see which ones were cooler and then swapped sides on the coils and the problem moved with the swap. Bingo! Another bad coil! Sent it back and Motobins confirmed it was bad and immediately replaced it. Even with the transcontinental shipping the Motobins PVL's are still the best investment you can make in your 1200!
                                                      BTW: Smart move Joan!
                                                      Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                                                      On 9/3/2013 7:34 AM, revd.steve.wilkinson@... wrote:

                                                      I like it, very much ! 



                                                      --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                      CHeers Steve.
                                                      I also tried second hand coils, they were also gubbed... of course the person selling them was not wanting to accept hat tthey were faulty, and went as far as to suggest that I had simply intended to swap my old coils for his good ones.
                                                      so I reminded him that he signed his coils in yellow paint, and should be able to easily recognise them again, and I sent him all six faulty coils back, in the hopes that he would realise that there was no way I was trying to pull the wool over his eyes, and that I really would like a full refund!
                                                      I got the refund!
                                                       
                                                      :) Joan
                                                      I
                                                                                                                                    

                                                       
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                                                    • stevethevic
                                                      Hi Ed, It s economics, as accepting the possibility of getting bad coils from EBay I have the chance of identifying a brain numbing problem for £40 ! If the
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Sep 3, 2013
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                                                        Hi Ed,


                                                        It's economics, as accepting the possibility of getting bad coils from EBay I have the chance of identifying a brain numbing problem for £40 !


                                                        If the problem is the coils then a new set from MotoBins will bring the total up to £120 and I can write the first £40 as fault finding. But, to do this in stages is important and I will swap the coils out one by one so I can identify (hopefully) which is the faulty one. When it is running properly again I'll install the Johnson Jolt and see how that improves matters.


                                                        Thanks again for all the help.


                                                        Peace.


                                                        Steve



                                                        --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                        Steve; There is also the possibility of getting a bad coil when buying new as well. In fact I don't think there is anyone on this forum that has had more bad luck with a bad running Trophy than me! I tried new coils on mine and it didn't fix my problem so at the suggestion of someone on the forum I checked the pipes to see which ones were cooler and then swapped sides on the coils and the problem moved with the swap. Bingo! Another bad coil! Sent it back and Motobins confirmed it was bad and immediately replaced it. Even with the transcontinental shipping the Motobins PVL's are still the best investment you can make in your 1200!
                                                        BTW: Smart move Joan!
                                                        Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
                                                        On 9/3/2013 7:34 AM, revd.steve.wilkinson@... wrote:

                                                        I like it, very much ! 



                                                        --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                        CHeers Steve.
                                                        I also tried second hand coils, they were also gubbed... of course the person selling them was not wanting to accept hat tthey were faulty, and went as far as to suggest that I had simply intended to swap my old coils for his good ones.
                                                        so I reminded him that he signed his coils in yellow paint, and should be able to easily recognise them again, and I sent him all six faulty coils back, in the hopes that he would realise that there was no way I was trying to pull the wool over his eyes, and that I really would like a full refund!
                                                        I got the refund!
                                                         
                                                        :) Joan
                                                        I
                                                                                                                                      

                                                         
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                                                        I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
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                                                      • Jack Byers
                                                        Hey Joan, Thanks for letting us know about the guy selling Gubbed coils. It s important as this might help point out unscrupulous sellers of second hand
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Sep 3, 2013
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                                                          Hey Joan,
                                                            Thanks for letting us know about the guy selling "Gubbed" coils. It's important as this might help point out unscrupulous sellers of second hand parts. I'm glad it all worked out.
                                                           Kindest regards, 
                                                             Poppa Jack
                                                          On Sep 3, 2013, at 4:34 AM, <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> <revd.steve.wilkinson@...> wrote:

                                                           

                                                          I like it, very much ! 



                                                          --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtrophy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                          CHeers Steve.
                                                          I also tried second hand coils, they were also gubbed... of course the person selling them was not wanting to accept hat tthey were faulty, and went as far as to suggest that I had simply intended to swap my old coils for his good ones.
                                                          so I reminded him that he signed his coils in yellow paint, and should be able to easily recognise them again, and I sent him all six faulty coils back, in the hopes that he would realise that there was no way I was trying to pull the wool over his eyes, and that I really would like a full refund!
                                                          I got the refund!
                                                           
                                                          :) Joan
                                                          I
                                                                                                                                        
                                                           


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