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Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1991 Trophy 1200 starting problems

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  • Samuel Crider
    Ed, If I were you I d rip out all of the cables between the battery and starter. Mabee the salt air combined with battery acid has attacked the copper. Replace
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 19, 2013
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      Ed,

      If I were you I'd rip out all of the cables between the battery and starter. Mabee the salt air combined with battery acid has attacked the copper. Replace them with a slightly larger gauge of welding cable. Replace the relay and pull the starter and polish the entire mating face and attachment bolt threads. Same goes for the ground between the battery and the frame. If this doesn't produce the desired results. Then either the starter or battery or both are at fault.

      As for the charging system I'd certainly set the output voltage higher. I've yet to attempt this but it may require another regulator. Then once you accomplish that feat you should also again replace the battery.

      Actually, after further thought reverse the order of the above paragraphs.

      Samuel
      96 BBBB PB
      New Orleans

      On Feb 19, 2013 5:25 PM, "chrisdross2010" <chris_niki@...> wrote:
      Thanks for the info from everyone, just a note the bike has been regularly serviced every year, all bits done that should, plus new carb floats last year. The she has always been a so and so to start if she is left for a day or 2 and a real b***h if she's left for a week. I'll look at double checking all the bits mentioned by everyone to make sure I haven't missed anything and let you know. many thanks all. Cheers Chris.



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    • Greg
      Hi Ed, Electronics have always been a sort of mystery to me. I can follow a schematic, but soon as the current goes into a relay or junction box the mystery
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 20, 2013
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        Hi Ed,
        Electronics have always been a sort of mystery to me. I can follow a schematic, but soon as the current goes into a relay or junction box the mystery begins. As you know I am no stranger to working on our bikes, but me taking out the battery box hasn't been done in a few years. That is where the positive cable is hidden and doesn't it go directly to the starter relay?

        I think Samuel has a good point. Try replacing the the positive cable from the battery to the starter relay. Cheap fix. I grew up in Southern California and rust was a rarity on cars except those from the beach, Malibu and such. Salt air is tough on electrics.

        I also have an infrared thermometer, was it Bob who used it to help him turn the air screws? If one of the header pipes is 100 degrees different than the others that was the cylinder that got adjusted. What a great idea. Too bad exhaust gas sniffers are so expensive.

        I have taken the eBay Mikuni's off and will do a strip down and soak. So the Keihin's are back on. I went up a notch in main jet size 120's to 122.5 It helped at the top end.
        Greg


        Ed Johnson wrote:
        I have also invested in an infrared thermometer so that I can see which cylinder is not firing...
        I've just recently discovered that even though I have 12.6 volts available at the battery only 8.5V is reaching the starting relay and that's before pushing the "Start" button.
      • nigel_keating
        Greg I agree, the diagrams are difficult to follow when relays are involved. Let me help try to clarify. The starter relay has nothing to do with the supply to
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 20, 2013
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          Greg I agree, the diagrams are difficult to follow when relays are involved. Let me help try to clarify. The starter relay has nothing to do with the supply to the starter. It merely disconnects the supply to the lights when you press the starter button. It is the solenoid that carries the current to the starter. The big lead from battery to starter is only interrupted by the solenoid. The solenoid is really a heavy duty relay in that a small load is required to pulls an electomagnet in which connects two big contacts together to energise the starter. Providing the solenoid is not clicking (which would indicate proper contact has not been made) the starter will get full battery voltage even if there are low voltages in other circuits as in eds case. The relay is not really part of the starter circuit but merely fed a supply from the low current side of the solenoid. Good luck with those carbs.

          Cheers nigel
          99 BBBB nwuk
          Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange

          From: "Greg" <gandrews@...>
          Sender: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:39:39 -0000
          To: <TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com>
          ReplyTo: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1991 Trophy 1200 starting problems

           

          Hi Ed,
          Electronics have always been a sort of mystery to me. I can follow a schematic, but soon as the current goes into a relay or junction box the mystery begins. As you know I am no stranger to working on our bikes, but me taking out the battery box hasn't been done in a few years. That is where the positive cable is hidden and doesn't it go directly to the starter relay?

          I think Samuel has a good point. Try replacing the the positive cable from the battery to the starter relay. Cheap fix. I grew up in Southern California and rust was a rarity on cars except those from the beach, Malibu and such. Salt air is tough on electrics.

          I also have an infrared thermometer, was it Bob who used it to help him turn the air screws? If one of the header pipes is 100 degrees different than the others that was the cylinder that got adjusted. What a great idea. Too bad exhaust gas sniffers are so expensive.

          I have taken the eBay Mikuni's off and will do a strip down and soak. So the Keihin's are back on. I went up a notch in main jet size 120's to 122.5 It helped at the top end.
          Greg

          Ed Johnson wrote:
          I have also invested in an infrared thermometer so that I can see which cylinder is not firing...
          I've just recently discovered that even though I have 12.6 volts available at the battery only 8.5V is reaching the starting relay and that's before pushing the "Start" button.

        • Ed Johnson
          Thanks Nigel; You cleared this up much better than I could have. I have not made myself clear in my posts that the voltage drop is in the loom not to the
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 20, 2013
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            Thanks Nigel;
                You cleared this up much better than I could have. I have not made myself clear in my posts that the voltage drop is in the loom not to the starter itself. As you describe, the relay which is really a solenoid connects the full voltage of the battery to the starter motor and it spins happily! The positive cable from the battery has two wires, The heavy cable that goes to the starter solenoid and another smaller wire that feeds + voltage into the rest of the components hooked to the loom or harness as it is called.
                Unlike most American beasts I have worked on; Triumph feeds a + voltage to most components at all times. Then they rely on a grounding system to complete the circuit. American manufactures do just the opposite. [ In the old days anyway! :-[ ] They ground everything and then shoot a + voltage to whatever they want to operate. Having said that; Here is my problem (s): As I said, the voltage to spin the starter is fine. The voltage going through the loom drops a tremendous amount before getting to the critical areas of our bikes. As Gordon discovered for me, he is getting the same voltage at the relay contacts of the starter solenoid as he is from the battery! [ Being in the UK he also has the option of not turning on his headlights so he not even getting the voltage drop of the lights being on.] Big Brother in both places have decided that we are all a bunch of idiots who would not only be smart enough to turn on our headlights but also would try to start the engine while in gear without pulling the clutch and would also attempt to drive off with the side stand down. So to circumvent these mental failings from happening they ingeniously have created this web of "SAFETY FEATURES" that must all be their proper stead before the machines can operate. This is all well a good as long as everything works properly as those of us who are ignorant enough to ride motorcycles manage not to injure ourselves by our obvious lack of comment sense. [ Which these days I consider a contradiction of terms. :-) ] However! If a failure occurs anywhere in this spider web of inter connected paths to ground we wind up with the starter motor getting full voltage but the coils and ignitor that actually make the machine operate are forced to operate in less than ideal conditions which is where my quandary rears it's ugly head! This is all due to the "God's of Electrikory" who have injected the all too famous "intermittent" that has driven electronic trouble shooters to drink for many years. My bike will sometimes start with the clutch released while in neutral and sometimes it won't! Not a real big issue on my part as I feel the clutch SHOULD be released while starting to avoid spinning a lot parts about that are not require for the engine to merely start! But that's not the point! The point is that somewhere in this spiderweb of safety features I have an intermittent ground which I believe is reducing the available voltage to my coils, ignitor, or both! I chose the starter relay contacts to check first because they are handy to the battery. In all honesty I have not pulled the tank and checked the voltage at the coils [Which are new BTW] nor have I pulled the nose cone to check the voltage at the ignitor. Mainly because when my SO sees the shop covered with motorcycle parts again she will know there is something more awry and be even more fearful of my returning should I leave the yard on this much valued machine. O:-)
                This doesn't even go into the fact that it is almost impossible to tell if a Trophy is flooded or starved for fuel when she doesn't start basically because by the time you crank her enough to find out she is not going to start, you have used up enough of the Cold Cranking Amps in the battery that the bike will turn over but may not fire the ignition.
                I'll spare you the details of the vacuum operated fuel tap with the knob that turns but may not be turning anything and the vacuum line that may not be sucking!
                So Yes Chris! There is INDEED a simple reason why your bike is hard to start. You just have to simply find it! :-\

            The above was all written in jest and is not intended to offend anyone! Only to relieve my own frustration!
                It is currently 62° and fair skies here in Florida and I must now decide whether to go for a ride [After I jump start it!] or tear the bike apart again! 8-)
            Cheers!

               
            Ed J. 2001Triumph Trophy BBBB
            On 2/20/2013 7:49 AM, nigelpk@... wrote:
            Greg I agree, the diagrams are difficult to follow when relays are involved. Let me help try to clarify. The starter relay has nothing to do with the supply to the starter. It merely disconnects the supply to the lights when you press the starter button. It is the solenoid that carries the current to the starter. The big lead from battery to starter is only interrupted by the solenoid. The solenoid is really a heavy duty relay in that a small load is required to pulls an electomagnet in which connects two big contacts together to energise the starter. Providing the solenoid is not clicking (which would indicate proper contact has not been made) the starter will get full battery voltage even if there are low voltages in other circuits as in eds case. The relay is not really part of the starter circuit but merely fed a supply from the low current side of the solenoid. Good luck with those carbs.

            Cheers nigel
            99 BBBB nwuk
            Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange

            From: "Greg" <gandrews@...>
            Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:39:39 -0000
            Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1991 Trophy 1200 starting problems

             

            Hi Ed,
            Electronics have always been a sort of mystery to me. I can follow a schematic, but soon as the current goes into a relay or junction box the mystery begins. As you know I am no stranger to working on our bikes, but me taking out the battery box hasn't been done in a few years. That is where the positive cable is hidden and doesn't it go directly to the starter relay?

            I think Samuel has a good point. Try replacing the the positive cable from the battery to the starter relay. Cheap fix. I grew up in Southern California and rust was a rarity on cars except those from the beach, Malibu and such. Salt air is tough on electrics.

            I also have an infrared thermometer, was it Bob who used it to help him turn the air screws? If one of the header pipes is 100 degrees different than the others that was the cylinder that got adjusted. What a great idea. Too bad exhaust gas sniffers are so expensive.

            I have taken the eBay Mikuni's off and will do a strip down and soak. So the Keihin's are back on. I went up a notch in main jet size 120's to 122.5 It helped at the top end.
            Greg

             
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