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Re-jetting for improved fuel economy

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  • ktm_mike_250
    A couple weeks ago there was some discussion about raising the clip on the carb needles (or put differently - lowering the needles), to help improve fuel
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 23, 2012
      A couple weeks ago there was some discussion about raising the clip on the carb needles (or put differently - lowering the needles), to help improve fuel economy. (largely based on a comment from Steve (glueman???) as I recall).

      I got around to giving it a shot yesterday. I have not really ridden enough since (only 50 miles or so) to see impact on fuel economy, but did get a preliminary idea on impact on how the bike ran. Oh - this is on a 2001 1200. Fuel economy has been between 32 and 35 mpg prior to this.

      Bike starts up quick and easy - just like before. No issues there.

      In more or less normal riding, not deliberately lugging the engine way down to low RPM - all seems fine - maybe a touch less "oomph" initially, followed by what seems to be a bit more of a "hit" or spike in power delivery. That is not surprising - a touch leaner initially, then as throttle opens it is more fully on the main jet, and the power seems to come on a bit more suddenly (not that it really is - just seems that way with a bit less pull initially??) All in all, hard to tell much difference, certainly not a problem.

      But...when lugging it way down low in 6th gear then wacking the throttle wide open, I am not entirely sure if it has had an impact or not. Fact is, I've only put around 1500 miles on the bike since I got it on the road this spring, and I never did specifically lug it waaaay down...but here is what I found:

      In 6th gear - down to 40 mph, wack throttle wide open - no issue. Maybe a touch less hard pulling?

      In 6th down to 35 mph, wack throttle wide open - bike would stumble a bit initially, not bad, then as RPM picked up, cleans up and pulls strong.

      In 6th down to 30 mph, (I did note engine RPM here - about 1800 or 1900 RPM approx). wack through wide open - very definite stumble, but does pull through it, clearing up around 2300 or 2400 RPM, pulling cleanly (though not hard until higher rpm).

      Now fact is, I can in no way picture where I would deliberately be lugging down to that low of RPM in 6th gear and not down shifting if I wanted to get on it hard. I really wish I had a better baseline as in having done the exact same lugging low, and wacking throttle open - but I don't - I just dont in the normal course of riding tend to do that I guess.

      Any feed back as to that baseline expectation when down to 30 mph in 6th and wacking wide open would be appreciated. meanwhile, i will hope to get a tank full of gas ran through the bike so I can verify fuel economy.

      I await your collective wisdom...

      Mike
    • Mike Stephenson
      As a quick update to my post about re-jetting (raising the clips on the carb needles one notch on my 01 1200) with the hopes of improving MPG: I finally got a
      Message 2 of 24 , May 1, 2012
        As a quick update to my post about re-jetting (raising the clips on the
        carb needles one notch on my 01 1200) with the hopes of improving MPG:

        I finally got a ride in where I could really assess how well the bike was
        running, as well as calculate the MPG. I am a happy biker on both counts.

        If you recall from my original post on this topic, I was a bit disappointed
        with the pull from down low, though I realize I was going a bit extreme,
        far outside of what would likely happen in normal riding. (seriously...how
        often would any of us lug down to 30 mph in 6th gear and wack the throttle
        wide open all at once?) I did about 75 miles of riding this evening -
        simply rode it like I normally would - no deliberately trying to find a
        stumble, just rode. Absolutely positively NO issues at all. Never a hick
        up or stumble. Roll on is fine, pulls great. Sure - if I REALLY lug it
        down REALLY low - it stumbled, but that was WAY below where I would ever
        ride the bike. So in real world riding conditions - no negative impact
        what so ever according to my highly calibrate hind end on the seat.

        As to MPG - WOW...BIG improvement! Previously the all time best I have
        gotten on this bike was 35.X mpg. More often though I was getting around
        32.x. Averaging those for a 33.5. Tonight I got 42.4 mpg! That is an
        improvement of 8.9 MPG or 27%. Even comparing to the 35, that is an
        improvement of 7.4 mpg or 21%. I was riding pretty much the same sort of
        pace as I have when I was getting the 32 to 35. Running 60 to 70 mph, with
        occasional short blasts to 80 or a tad more. If anything I may have been
        riding it a bit more aggressively coming out of corners than i was before
        (the dear wife was not on the back tonight) The only other difference is
        that previously my riding was almost always 2 up, with bags and trunk on.
        I had neither tonight.

        So - my conclusion - this is a great way to improve fuel economy on our
        thirsty 1200s. Easy to do to boot!

        Mike


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Curt Coulombe
        Sound great Mike!   Do you know what gearing you have? What jets did you put in? Where did you get them?   Thanks!   Curt www.curtcoulombe.com From: Mike
        Message 3 of 24 , May 1, 2012
          Sound great Mike!
           
          Do you know what gearing you have? What jets did you put in? Where did you get them?
           
          Thanks!
           
          Curt


          www.curtcoulombe.com

          From: Mike Stephenson <ktm.mike.585@...>
          To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 9:45 PM
          Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Re-jetting for improved fuel economy


           
          As a quick update to my post about re-jetting (raising the clips on the
          carb needles one notch on my 01 1200) with the hopes of improving MPG:

          I finally got a ride in where I could really assess how well the bike was
          running, as well as calculate the MPG. I am a happy biker on both counts.

          If you recall from my original post on this topic, I was a bit disappointed
          with the pull from down low, though I realize I was going a bit extreme,
          far outside of what would likely happen in normal riding. (seriously...how
          often would any of us lug down to 30 mph in 6th gear and wack the throttle
          wide open all at once?) I did about 75 miles of riding this evening -
          simply rode it like I normally would - no deliberately trying to find a
          stumble, just rode. Absolutely positively NO issues at all. Never a hick
          up or stumble. Roll on is fine, pulls great. Sure - if I REALLY lug it
          down REALLY low - it stumbled, but that was WAY below where I would ever
          ride the bike. So in real world riding conditions - no negative impact
          what so ever according to my highly calibrate hind end on the seat.

          As to MPG - WOW...BIG improvement! Previously the all time best I have
          gotten on this bike was 35.X mpg. More often though I was getting around
          32.x. Averaging those for a 33.5. Tonight I got 42.4 mpg! That is an
          improvement of 8.9 MPG or 27%. Even comparing to the 35, that is an
          improvement of 7.4 mpg or 21%. I was riding pretty much the same sort of
          pace as I have when I was getting the 32 to 35. Running 60 to 70 mph, with
          occasional short blasts to 80 or a tad more. If anything I may have been
          riding it a bit more aggressively coming out of corners than i was before
          (the dear wife was not on the back tonight) The only other difference is
          that previously my riding was almost always 2 up, with bags and trunk on.
          I had neither tonight.

          So - my conclusion - this is a great way to improve fuel economy on our
          thirsty 1200s. Easy to do to boot!

          Mike

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ed Johnson
          Sounds like wife and bags would have an impact as well! Can you attribute the increased mileage to the needle adjustment alone? Ed J. 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
          Message 4 of 24 , May 2, 2012
            Sounds like wife and bags would have an impact as well! Can you attribute
            the increased mileage to the needle adjustment alone?

            Ed J.
            2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
            Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
            Cell - 321/795-4387


            -----Original Message-----
            From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of Mike Stephenson
            Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 9:46 PM
            To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Re-jetting for improved fuel economy

            As a quick update to my post about re-jetting (raising the clips on the carb
            needles one notch on my 01 1200) with the hopes of improving MPG:

            I finally got a ride in where I could really assess how well the bike was
            running, as well as calculate the MPG. I am a happy biker on both counts.

            If you recall from my original post on this topic, I was a bit disappointed
            with the pull from down low, though I realize I was going a bit extreme, far
            outside of what would likely happen in normal riding. (seriously...how often
            would any of us lug down to 30 mph in 6th gear and wack the throttle wide
            open all at once?) I did about 75 miles of riding this evening - simply
            rode it like I normally would - no deliberately trying to find a stumble,
            just rode. Absolutely positively NO issues at all. Never a hick up or
            stumble. Roll on is fine, pulls great. Sure - if I REALLY lug it down
            REALLY low - it stumbled, but that was WAY below where I would ever ride the
            bike. So in real world riding conditions - no negative impact what so ever
            according to my highly calibrate hind end on the seat.

            As to MPG - WOW...BIG improvement! Previously the all time best I have
            gotten on this bike was 35.X mpg. More often though I was getting around
            32.x. Averaging those for a 33.5. Tonight I got 42.4 mpg! That is an
            improvement of 8.9 MPG or 27%. Even comparing to the 35, that is an
            improvement of 7.4 mpg or 21%. I was riding pretty much the same sort of
            pace as I have when I was getting the 32 to 35. Running 60 to 70 mph, with
            occasional short blasts to 80 or a tad more. If anything I may have been
            riding it a bit more aggressively coming out of corners than i was before
            (the dear wife was not on the back tonight) The only other difference is
            that previously my riding was almost always 2 up, with bags and trunk on.
            I had neither tonight.

            So - my conclusion - this is a great way to improve fuel economy on our
            thirsty 1200s. Easy to do to boot!

            Mike


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Mike Stephenson
            Curt - no parts needed. Simply remove carb tops, Remove slide, Remove needle, Move existing clip on needle up one notch. Re- assemble Ed - No - I can not
            Message 5 of 24 , May 2, 2012
              Curt - no parts needed. Simply remove carb tops, Remove slide, Remove
              needle, Move existing clip on needle up one notch. Re- assemble

              Ed - No - I can not attribute to carb adjustment alone, however I really
              can not imagine a 21% impact due to bags and wife (note term bag is NOT
              referring to wife!). In a couple weeks I am going to be doing a fair bit
              of riding (I have some vacation time coming up) - I plan to track mileage
              the entire time. Then I will be riding two up with bags - though it will
              be in the twisties of West Virginia, so that will have an impact vs the
              comparatively straight and easy riding of Northern Michigan.

              Logicaly it makes sense the change should impact fuel economy. Before -
              poor MPG, plugs black and sooty. consistent with running rich. Now -
              carbs set up to be running leaner - MPG improved. I have not checked plugs
              since though.

              Another poster here (Steve? glueman or somesuch user name???) mentioned
              similar sucess on various customer bikes hs has worked on. (I believe he
              is a Triumph mechanic)

              Mike


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mike Stephenson
              curt - i realized I did not answer your question about gearing...no I dont know what my gearing is. I can at least check the rear for you. (front is a bit
              Message 6 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                curt - i realized I did not answer your question about gearing...no I dont
                know what my gearing is. I can at least check the rear for you. (front
                is a bit of a pain to access it looks like). I'v only had the bike since
                late December - so it has what ever it did as instaled by prior owner.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kevin B
                Now my worry would be how long before a melted piston because it is running so lean. If the bike is high mileage I guess you could just be compensating for
                Message 7 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                  Now my worry would be how long before a melted piston because it is running so lean.

                  If the bike is high mileage I guess you could just be compensating for needle/jet wear but in the back of my mind running hot and seizure or melted piston would be niggling away!
                • Mike Stephenson
                  As the bike exhibited signs of running rich before (bad MPG, sooty plugs, pistons and head were fairly carboned up when I did head gasket etc.), and as it
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                    As the bike exhibited signs of running rich before (bad MPG, sooty plugs,
                    pistons and head were fairly carboned up when I did head gasket etc.), and
                    as it shows no signs of running lean, I have no concerns.

                    Adjusting a clip position on the needle is a rather minor change - it is
                    not like the main jet was reduced 2 sizes or anything. I have made many
                    similar adjustments of clip positions on many bikes in the past - never an
                    issue.

                    Maybe...MAYBE IF...the bike was on the lean side to start with, a clip
                    position change might put it to lean - but that was not the case.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mike Stephenson
                    another comment - and I realize this is not an absolute sort of thing..but in jetting off road bikes, my rule of thumb has always been moving up or down 1
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                      another comment - and I realize this is not an absolute sort of thing..but
                      in jetting off road bikes, my rule of thumb has always been moving up or
                      down 1 maybe 2 sizes depending on if other carb cicuits are tending to be
                      rich or on the lean side on jets (pilot or main) is safe without having to
                      immediately do a plug read. And I never do multiple changes at the same
                      time without first verifying status (plug read etc.) . Air Screw and
                      needle clip positions tend to have less dramatic potential impact unless
                      you go to extremes. (like bottom clip to top clip in one fell swoop).

                      The only time I have ever had that fail me was when I did not apply it! In
                      that case I had changed to a different profile of slide, a different
                      profile of needle AND different main jet....then proceded to do a wide open
                      blast down a long open stretch of trail, up hill, in deep sand...in colder
                      than expected temps during an enduro race. Siezed the bike up rather
                      nicely...and trashed what had otherwise been a fantastic race prior to
                      that.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Kevin B
                      I guess when these bikes were built and factory assembled they may also have been jetted for performance rather than economy (fuel was cheap then) or not even
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                        I guess when these bikes were built and factory assembled they may also have been jetted for performance rather than economy (fuel was cheap then) or not even factory set at all and just left the factory with the jets on the centre setting so perhaps one or even two changes from factory setting won't be a problem.

                        Maybe I will recommend it to my brother (Jubba) who, like you, really struggles with economy at about 30mpg but does spend a lot of time two up and rides quite quickly. Though as he runs an early Mk1 125bhp bike that isn't such a surprise. Perhaps a raising of clip (lowering of needle) will help him.

                        With my late Mk1 108bhp I average between 34 and 38 so perhaps even I will be tempted.
                      • Ed Johnson
                        I m in total agreement with you Mike! I m going to follow suit the next time I have my tank off. I have several sets of sooty plugs and not a brown one in the
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                          I'm in total agreement with you Mike! I'm going to follow suit the
                          next time I have my tank off. I have several sets of sooty plugs and not a
                          brown one in the bunch so I don't think we would be creating a problem. I
                          also think it may have something to do with the startability [According to
                          my spell checker I just invented a new word.(;-)] of my Trophy as well.
                          Sooty plugs are NOT conducive to easy starts.

                          Ed J.
                          2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                          Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                          Cell - 321/795-4387


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                          On Behalf Of Mike Stephenson
                          Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 3:45 PM
                          To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Re-jetting for improved fuel economy

                          As the bike exhibited signs of running rich before (bad MPG, sooty plugs,
                          pistons and head were fairly carboned up when I did head gasket etc.), and
                          as it shows no signs of running lean, I have no concerns.

                          Adjusting a clip position on the needle is a rather minor change - it is
                          not like the main jet was reduced 2 sizes or anything. I have made many
                          similar adjustments of clip positions on many bikes in the past - never an
                          issue.

                          Maybe...MAYBE IF...the bike was on the lean side to start with, a clip
                          position change might put it to lean - but that was not the case.
                        • Ed Johnson
                          Another point to consider is altitude. These bikes left the factory headed for a multitude of regions to operate properly upon arrival. Not an easy task in
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                            Another point to consider is altitude. These bikes left the factory
                            headed for a multitude of regions to operate properly upon arrival. Not an
                            easy task in itself to achieve the correct combination for who knows where!
                            Just a thought!

                            Ed J.
                            2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                            Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                            Cell - 321/795-4387


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                            On Behalf Of Kevin B
                            Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 4:16 PM
                            To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Re-jetting for improved fuel economy

                            I guess when these bikes were built and factory assembled they may also have
                            been jetted for performance rather than economy (fuel was cheap then) or not
                            even factory set at all and just left the factory with the jets on the
                            centre setting so perhaps one or even two changes from factory setting won't
                            be a problem.

                            Maybe I will recommend it to my brother (Jubba) who, like you, really
                            struggles with economy at about 30mpg but does spend a lot of time two up
                            and rides quite quickly. Though as he runs an early Mk1 125bhp bike that
                            isn't such a surprise. Perhaps a raising of clip (lowering of needle) will
                            help him.

                            With my late Mk1 108bhp I average between 34 and 38 so perhaps even I will
                            be tempted.
                          • Samuel Crider
                            Hi Mike, Thanks for keeping us up on your adventure. Next time your under the caps. Pull the needles one at a time and record the size numbers. Even with my
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                              Hi Mike,

                              Thanks for keeping us up on your adventure. Next time your under the caps.
                              Pull the needles one at a time and record the size numbers. Even with my
                              crs kickin my butt I seem to recall two different size needles in play.
                              Which naturally were installed in the wrong locations. I believe the
                              bikebandit parts view shows this. Would you happen to recall which notch
                              your clips are now set on? Back when I first put the wrenches to my beast.
                              I lowered the needles 1 notch during the carb rebuilding process. She was
                              quite thirsty before and was returning approx 27mpg. After the service she
                              now does between 34 to 39mpg. Next time I lift the tank and providing the
                              plug color allows. I just might drop them another notch. But at least she
                              no longer fouls the plugs in 1kmi. Granted she's a tad slower, but she has
                              never fouled since........

                              Enjoy the season and ride safe.

                              Samuel Crider
                              96 BBBB PB
                              New Orleans

                              On May 2, 2012 3:31 PM, "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@...> wrote:

                              Another point to consider is altitude. These bikes left the factory
                              headed for a multitude of regions to operate properly upon arrival. Not an
                              easy task in itself to achieve the correct combination for who knows where!
                              Just a thought!


                              Ed J.
                              2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                              Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                              Cell - 321/795-4387


                              -----Original M...

                              On Behalf Of Kevin B
                              Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 4:16 PM
                              To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject...

                              I guess when these bikes were built and factory assembled they may also have
                              been jetted for perform...


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jack Byers
                              Hi Kevin, As I read these notes, I was wondering the same thing. I would guess my 95 was set up pretty lean to begin with to be a 50 state model, and pass the
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                                Hi Kevin,
                                As I read these notes, I was wondering the same thing. I would
                                guess my '95 was set up pretty lean to begin with to be a 50 state
                                model, and pass the strict California emissions requirements. My
                                plugs have always been just right in color when I pulled them.
                                However: in town my mileage is in the high 20's and low 30's, but out
                                on the road I get over 250 before I even have to go on reserve! That
                                seems to me to be a bigger difference than it aught to be? I'd worry
                                about leaning mine out any more.
                                Kindest regards,
                                Poppa Jack
                                On May 2, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Kevin B wrote:

                                > Now my worry would be how long before a melted piston because it is
                                > running so lean.
                                >
                                > If the bike is high mileage I guess you could just be compensating
                                > for needle/jet wear but in the back of my mind running hot and
                                > seizure or melted piston would be niggling away!
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mike Stephenson
                                Jack I wonder if the newer ones are more afflicted with fat jetting than the older ones? Mine is a 2001. I agree - if your plugs look good, I would not jet
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                                  Jack

                                  I wonder if the newer ones are more afflicted with fat jetting than the
                                  older ones? Mine is a 2001. I agree - if your plugs look good, I would
                                  not jet leaner, or would proceed with great caution. Every indication with
                                  my bike is it was jetted fat.

                                  I hit reserve at 150 miles on my bike...I would love to see 250! Maybe I
                                  will now?





                                  On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Jack Byers <jackbyers@...> wrote:

                                  > Hi Kevin,
                                  > As I read these notes, I was wondering the same thing. I would
                                  > guess my '95 was set up pretty lean to begin with to be a 50 state
                                  > model, and pass the strict California emissions requirements. My
                                  > plugs have always been just right in color when I pulled them.
                                  > However: in town my mileage is in the high 20's and low 30's, but out
                                  > on the road I get over 250 before I even have to go on reserve! That
                                  > seems to me to be a bigger difference than it aught to be? I'd worry
                                  > about leaning mine out any more.
                                  > Kindest regards,
                                  > Poppa Jack
                                  > On May 2, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Kevin B wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Now my worry would be how long before a melted piston because it is
                                  > > running so lean.
                                  > >
                                  > > If the bike is high mileage I guess you could just be compensating
                                  > > for needle/jet wear but in the back of my mind running hot and
                                  > > seizure or melted piston would be niggling away!
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Mike Stephenson
                                  Samuel Unfortunately I did not look at the needles to see what they were. I also suffer from CRS...and dont for sure recall what notch the clips were in! Off
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                                    Samuel

                                    Unfortunately I did not look at the needles to see what they were. I also
                                    suffer from CRS...and dont for sure recall what notch the clips were in!
                                    Off hand, i want to say 3rd one down from top - ie middle?

                                    I also wonder about playing around with different needles. I have had
                                    great success doing that on one of my KTMs a few years back - variables
                                    like amount of taper, length, diameter all factoring in - but with my KTMs
                                    I had tons of info available online as a starting point...does not seem we
                                    are so lucky on the Trophies. On yet another KTM, modifying the slide cut
                                    away was the hot ticket. so many options!

                                    I am sure I will be checking the plugs in the not to distant future. I
                                    plan to be putting about 1000 to 1500 miles on the bike in a couple weeks
                                    so will have good baseline.

                                    Mike

                                    On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Samuel Crider <dieseldude1@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Mike,
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for keeping us up on your adventure. Next time your under the caps.
                                    > Pull the needles one at a time and record the size numbers. Even with my
                                    > crs kickin my butt I seem to recall two different size needles in play.
                                    > Which naturally were installed in the wrong locations. I believe the
                                    > bikebandit parts view shows this. Would you happen to recall which notch
                                    > your clips are now set on? Back when I first put the wrenches to my beast.
                                    > I lowered the needles 1 notch during the carb rebuilding process. She was
                                    > quite thirsty before and was returning approx 27mpg. After the service she
                                    > now does between 34 to 39mpg. Next time I lift the tank and providing the
                                    > plug color allows. I just might drop them another notch. But at least she
                                    > no longer fouls the plugs in 1kmi. Granted she's a tad slower, but she has
                                    > never fouled since........
                                    >
                                    > Enjoy the season and ride safe.
                                    >
                                    > Samuel Crider
                                    > 96 BBBB PB
                                    > New Orleans
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On May 2, 2012 3:31 PM, "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Another point to consider is altitude. These bikes left the factory
                                    > headed for a multitude of regions to operate properly upon arrival. Not an
                                    > easy task in itself to achieve the correct combination for who knows where!
                                    > Just a thought!
                                    >
                                    > Ed J.
                                    > 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                                    > Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                                    > Cell - 321/795-4387
                                    >
                                    > -----Original M...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Behalf Of Kevin B
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 4:16 PM
                                    > To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I guess when these bikes were built and factory assembled they may also
                                    > have
                                    > been jetted for perform...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Greg
                                    Hi Ed, Startability sounds like a good word to me. I ve played with the carbs on my 96 900. The needles are on the middle notch and it is happiest there. I
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 2, 2012
                                      Hi Ed, Startability sounds like a good word to me.
                                      I've played with the carbs on my ' 96 900. The needles are on the middle notch and it is happiest there. I tried dropping the needles one notch and didn't like the way the engine performed. With the rev's at 4 or 5 grand and opening up the throttle the engine would hesitate so bad the front end would actually dip down. It reminded me of the lag that turbo charged engines had back in the early days.

                                      If someone is looking for better gas mileage changed the two o-rings that hold the float assembly. Also if the engine has 60k or more, take a close look at the emulsion tubes ( the tubes the needles go up and down in) after many miles the soft brass get ovalized by the stainless steel needles and are no longer round. Now I've made up a new word also.

                                      Some folks brag how their bikes don't need any choke on a cold start up. The down side to that is the low speed circuit is too rich. They've probably got the air screws turn out more than 2&1/2 turns, and I'm going to guess they've also got sooty spark plugs. Here is another place to improve the fuel mileage. Currently I have the air screws at 1&3/4 out. I can't stand the rattle at idle when the air screws are set at 1&1/2 turns.

                                      Also consider the type and size of windshield is on the bike when comparing fuel mileage. My brother's '95 900 always gets better fuel mileage than my '96 900 with a medium Clearview windshield.

                                      Ed, are you having any luck with the fairing tab project?

                                      Greg Andrews
                                      '96 900 BRG
                                      '98 900 Sprint Exec.

                                      "Ed Johnson" wrote:
                                      I have several sets of sooty plugs and not a brown one in the bunch so I don't think we would be creating a problem. I also think it may have something to do with the startability
                                      Ed J.
                                    • a2 - inoperative emessages
                                      Thanks for revisiting this thread - I have carefully read everyone comments on this one (as usual anyhow). I couldn t wait to try what you prescribe on my
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 6, 2012
                                        Thanks for revisiting this thread - I have carefully read everyone comments on this one (as usual anyhow).

                                        I couldn't wait to try what you prescribe on my 95BBB.(29k miles)

                                        I found all the needles were the same (didn't go down to look at the emulsion holes) marked 5E56 (tried googling that quickly but found nothing) - I was surprised they were the same actually. There was some sign of wear on the outer needles as if the metal coating had been rubbed off one side. The inner cylinder's needle looked perfect.

                                        My BBB has always run rich and there are other issues such as dicey starting and easy to stall at VERY low revs that have been minor issues too. - I mention these as I am trying to work out what's going on.

                                        I took the pilot jets down to 1.5 turns (from 2.0) about a year ago and the bike remained NOISY - clattery - listening to the comments here it should have become more noisy (I was trying to reduce richness overall) It reliably ticks over at 800 revs like a can of keys going downhill. At 1000 (target) it is less noisy (but still noisy!)

                                        That's the background - anyhow I found the clips on 4 (towards rich) (surprising!) so put them on 3 lowering the needles (midway for those that haven't looked and leaner)

                                        Wouldn't start easily initially (my fault I think) Where it used to like full choke it wouldn't start - it started easily on 3/4 choke and then it took an age to warm up (no power) - coming off choke in the usual time but seriously no power even at the first junction about 200 metres away (thought I was going to leg it!!). (Weather wet and a bit cold)

                                        Then I ran it for a while and the power issue disappeared - It just sounded so much better - The thing goes faster than my limits anyhow so I won't be telling you it runs faster etc but the delivery seemed smoother, quieter at tickover, started nicely later on. Then the "piece de resistance" (www.thefreedictionary.com/piece+de+resistance)
                                        I usually stall the bike when I sneak it quietly up the side of my house at tickover (trying not to disturb my neighbours) and it was virtually un-stall-able over the ramp and round the corners (hence the superglued indicators, scuffed boxes etc

                                        I know - Rose tinted glasses (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/through+rose-colored+glasses) - It's bound to blow up and I keep pinching myself to make sure I made it leaner....????.......

                                        A2




                                        --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "ktm_mike_250" <ktm.mike.585@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > A couple weeks ago there was some discussion about raising the clip on the carb needles (or put differently - lowering the needles), to help improve fuel economy. (largely based on a comment from Steve (glueman???) as I recall).
                                        >
                                        > I got around to giving it a shot yesterday. I have not really ridden enough since (only 50 miles or so) to see impact on fuel economy, but did get a preliminary idea on impact on how the bike ran. Oh - this is on a 2001 1200. Fuel economy has been between 32 and 35 mpg prior to this.
                                        >
                                        > Bike starts up quick and easy - just like before. No issues there.
                                        >
                                        > In more or less normal riding, not deliberately lugging the engine way down to low RPM - all seems fine - maybe a touch less "oomph" initially, followed by what seems to be a bit more of a "hit" or spike in power delivery. That is not surprising - a touch leaner initially, then as throttle opens it is more fully on the main jet, and the power seems to come on a bit more suddenly (not that it really is - just seems that way with a bit less pull initially??) All in all, hard to tell much difference, certainly not a problem.
                                        >
                                        > But...when lugging it way down low in 6th gear then wacking the throttle wide open, I am not entirely sure if it has had an impact or not. Fact is, I've only put around 1500 miles on the bike since I got it on the road this spring, and I never did specifically lug it waaaay down...but here is what I found:
                                        >
                                        > In 6th gear - down to 40 mph, wack throttle wide open - no issue. Maybe a touch less hard pulling?
                                        >
                                      • Mike Stephenson
                                        A2 - sounds like it may be the ticket for you as well. I would be curious to see how your fuel economy ends up. Odd how it was intially hard to start, then
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 6, 2012
                                          A2 - sounds like it may be the ticket for you as well. I would be curious
                                          to see how your fuel economy ends up. Odd how it was intially hard to
                                          start, then became self correcting? All is well that ends well though!

                                          I have next week off from work, and am planning to do 1500 to 2000 miles of
                                          riding (heading to West Virgina for some great riding on the twisties -
                                          much better than flat and straight northern Michigan!). I am eager to see
                                          how it goes - will be my first bit of concentrated riding on the Trophy.

                                          Mike


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • a2 - inoperative emessages
                                          I haven t really got a baseline for fuel economy - once I worked out it was disappointing and linked to the fun I was having I just forgot about it especially
                                          Message 20 of 24 , May 7, 2012
                                            I haven't really got a baseline for fuel economy - once I worked out it was disappointing and linked to the fun I was having I just forgot about it especially as recently I only use it for short trips. I am guessing it was closer to the 150 per tank end rather than 250 though.

                                            I don't think I could start it initially as the sweet spot had moved - soon found it.

                                            A2







                                            --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Mike Stephenson <ktm.mike.585@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > A2 - sounds like it may be the ticket for you as well. I would be curious
                                            > to see how your fuel economy ends up. Odd how it was intially hard to
                                            > start, then became self correcting? All is well that ends well though!
                                            >
                                            > I have next week off from work, and am planning to do 1500 to 2000 miles of
                                            > riding (heading to West Virgina for some great riding on the twisties -
                                            > much better than flat and straight northern Michigan!). I am eager to see
                                            > how it goes - will be my first bit of concentrated riding on the Trophy.
                                            >
                                            > Mike
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • Jack Byers
                                            HeyA2, I m getting only about 150 MPG around town (short trips) as well on my 95 BBBB. All the stop and go eats fuel faster. Poppa ... [Non-text portions of
                                            Message 21 of 24 , May 7, 2012
                                              HeyA2,
                                              I'm getting only about 150 MPG around town (short trips) as well
                                              on my '95 BBBB. All the stop and go eats fuel faster.
                                              Poppa
                                              On May 7, 2012, at 12:54 AM, a2 - inoperative emessages wrote:

                                              > I haven't really got a baseline for fuel economy - once I worked
                                              > out it was disappointing and linked to the fun I was having I just
                                              > forgot about it especially as recently I only use it for short
                                              > trips. I am guessing it was closer to the 150 per tank end rather
                                              > than 250 though.
                                              >
                                              > I don't think I could start it initially as the sweet spot had
                                              > moved - soon found it.
                                              >
                                              > A2
                                              >
                                              > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Mike Stephenson <ktm.mike.
                                              > 585@...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > A2 - sounds like it may be the ticket for you as well. I would be
                                              > curious
                                              > > to see how your fuel economy ends up. Odd how it was intially
                                              > hard to
                                              > > start, then became self correcting? All is well that ends well
                                              > though!
                                              > >
                                              > > I have next week off from work, and am planning to do 1500 to
                                              > 2000 miles of
                                              > > riding (heading to West Virgina for some great riding on the
                                              > twisties -
                                              > > much better than flat and straight northern Michigan!). I am
                                              > eager to see
                                              > > how it goes - will be my first bit of concentrated riding on the
                                              > Trophy.
                                              > >
                                              > > Mike
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • a2 - inoperative emessages
                                              Yeah Poppa - but isn t it fun...A2
                                              Message 22 of 24 , May 7, 2012
                                                Yeah Poppa - but isn't it fun...A2

                                                --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Jack Byers <jackbyers@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > HeyA2,
                                                > I'm getting only about 150 MPG around town (short trips) as well
                                                > on my '95 BBBB. All the stop and go eats fuel faster.
                                                > Poppa
                                                > On May 7, 2012, at 12:54 AM, a2 - inoperative emessages wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > I haven't really got a baseline for fuel economy - once I worked
                                                > > out it was disappointing and linked to the fun I was having I just
                                                > > forgot about it especially as recently I only use it for short
                                                > > trips. I am guessing it was closer to the 150 per tank end rather
                                                > > than 250 though.
                                                > >
                                                > > I don't think I could start it initially as the sweet spot had
                                                > > moved - soon found it.
                                                > >
                                                > > A2
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Mike Stephenson <ktm.mike.
                                                > > 585@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > A2 - sounds like it may be the ticket for you as well. I would be
                                                > > curious
                                                > > > to see how your fuel economy ends up. Odd how it was intially
                                                > > hard to
                                                > > > start, then became self correcting? All is well that ends well
                                                > > though!
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I have next week off from work, and am planning to do 1500 to
                                                > > 2000 miles of
                                                > > > riding (heading to West Virgina for some great riding on the
                                                > > twisties -
                                                > > > much better than flat and straight northern Michigan!). I am
                                                > > eager to see
                                                > > > how it goes - will be my first bit of concentrated riding on the
                                                > > Trophy.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Mike
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                              • Jack Byers
                                                I mean 150 Miles Per Tank not MPG ooops! (I don t want to get on Bob s sh*t list too!). I do seem to launch from stop lights. I love a spirited romp thru the
                                                Message 23 of 24 , May 7, 2012
                                                  I mean 150 Miles Per Tank not MPG ooops! (I don't want to get on
                                                  Bob's sh*t list too!). I do seem to launch from stop lights. I love a
                                                  spirited romp thru the cogs, and these things are so powerful that I
                                                  can get my jollys without really raising much fuss. Yes sir it is
                                                  sure fun. By the way A2 Thanks for all your input. I always enjoy
                                                  your tech hints.
                                                  Kindest regards,
                                                  Poppa Jack

                                                  On May 7, 2012, at 2:00 PM, a2 - inoperative emessages wrote:

                                                  > Yeah Poppa - but isn't it fun...A2
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Jack Byers <jackbyers@...>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > HeyA2,
                                                  > > I'm getting only about 150 MPG around town (short trips) as well
                                                  > > on my '95 BBBB. All the stop and go eats fuel faster.
                                                  > > Poppa
                                                  > > On May 7, 2012, at 12:54 AM, a2 - inoperative emessages wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > I haven't really got a baseline for fuel economy - once I worked
                                                  > > > out it was disappointing and linked to the fun I was having I just
                                                  > > > forgot about it especially as recently I only use it for short
                                                  > > > trips. I am guessing it was closer to the 150 per tank end rather
                                                  > > > than 250 though.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I don't think I could start it initially as the sweet spot had
                                                  > > > moved - soon found it.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > A2
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Mike Stephenson <ktm.mike.
                                                  > > > 585@> wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > A2 - sounds like it may be the ticket for you as well. I
                                                  > would be
                                                  > > > curious
                                                  > > > > to see how your fuel economy ends up. Odd how it was intially
                                                  > > > hard to
                                                  > > > > start, then became self correcting? All is well that ends well
                                                  > > > though!
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > I have next week off from work, and am planning to do 1500 to
                                                  > > > 2000 miles of
                                                  > > > > riding (heading to West Virgina for some great riding on the
                                                  > > > twisties -
                                                  > > > > much better than flat and straight northern Michigan!). I am
                                                  > > > eager to see
                                                  > > > > how it goes - will be my first bit of concentrated riding on the
                                                  > > > Trophy.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Mike
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • a2 - inoperative emessages
                                                  Always a pleasure Poppa to read your eloquent descriptions, to tap into your experience and appreciate the inviting warm welcomes you give to all new nervous
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , May 9, 2012
                                                    Always a pleasure Poppa to read your eloquent descriptions, to tap into your experience and appreciate the inviting warm welcomes you give to all new nervous members - such as I was.

                                                    Happiest getting it all back together....;)
                                                    A2

                                                    --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Jack Byers <jackbyers@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > I mean 150 Miles Per Tank not MPG ooops! (I don't want to get on
                                                    > Bob's sh*t list too!). I do seem to launch from stop lights. I love a
                                                    > spirited romp thru the cogs, and these things are so powerful that I
                                                    > can get my jollys without really raising much fuss. Yes sir it is
                                                    > sure fun. By the way A2 Thanks for all your input. I always enjoy
                                                    > your tech hints.
                                                    > Kindest regards,
                                                    > Poppa Jack
                                                    >
                                                    > On May 7, 2012, at 2:00 PM, a2 - inoperative emessages wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > Yeah Poppa - but isn't it fun...A2
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Jack Byers <jackbyers@>
                                                    > > wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > HeyA2,
                                                    > > > I'm getting only about 150 MPG around town (short trips) as well
                                                    > > > on my '95 BBBB. All the stop and go eats fuel faster.
                                                    > > > Poppa
                                                    > > > On May 7, 2012, at 12:54 AM, a2 - inoperative emessages wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > > I haven't really got a baseline for fuel economy - once I worked
                                                    > > > > out it was disappointing and linked to the fun I was having I just
                                                    > > > > forgot about it especially as recently I only use it for short
                                                    > > > > trips. I am guessing it was closer to the 150 per tank end rather
                                                    > > > > than 250 though.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > I don't think I could start it initially as the sweet spot had
                                                    > > > > moved - soon found it.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > A2
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, Mike Stephenson <ktm.mike.
                                                    > > > > 585@> wrote:
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > A2 - sounds like it may be the ticket for you as well. I
                                                    > > would be
                                                    > > > > curious
                                                    > > > > > to see how your fuel economy ends up. Odd how it was intially
                                                    > > > > hard to
                                                    > > > > > start, then became self correcting? All is well that ends well
                                                    > > > > though!
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > I have next week off from work, and am planning to do 1500 to
                                                    > > > > 2000 miles of
                                                    > > > > > riding (heading to West Virgina for some great riding on the
                                                    > > > > twisties -
                                                    > > > > > much better than flat and straight northern Michigan!). I am
                                                    > > > > eager to see
                                                    > > > > > how it goes - will be my first bit of concentrated riding on the
                                                    > > > > Trophy.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Mike
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
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