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Coughing, choking, then stops

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  • Greg
    Hi All, Cruising at 70mph, was that an engine cough or turbulent air.? Get away from the truck, still coughing. Another mile of more coughing then engine
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 31, 2011
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      Hi All, Cruising at 70mph, was that an engine cough or turbulent air.? Get away from the truck, still coughing. Another mile of more coughing then engine quits. Stop on the road's shoulder, open the gas cap, turn petcock to prime and wait 30 seconds still no start. Wait 4 more minutes and it starts up and it goes just fine. Some coughing 20 minutes later. This same occurrence happened three times yesterday.

      Today I took the tank off to see how the fuel was flowing thru the petcock. Good steady stream on prime if its turned all the way. Good steady stream on run and reserve with vacuum. No difference with gas cap open or closed. ??? I thought this is where I'd find the problem.

      I'm going to change the ignition sensor and see what happens. I've changed the sensor on my high mileage '95 900. But when that sensor went out it acted differently. Two coughs and then lights out. It all happens in 5 seconds, not 1 minute.

      Has anyone else had the ignition sensor takes its time to finally shuts the engine down?
      Thanks in advance,
      Greg Andrews
    • A Deux
      Greg It does seem to be heat and sensor related as long as you have not got water in your fuel. Is this a 900 too? Stopping completely is probably electrical.
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 31, 2011
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        Greg

        It does seem to be heat and sensor related as long as you have not got water in your fuel. Is this a 900 too? Stopping completely is probably electrical.

        A2


        --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <gandrews@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All, Cruising at 70mph, was that an engine cough or turbulent air.? Get away from the truck, still coughing. Another mile of more coughing then engine quits. Stop on the road's shoulder, open the gas cap, turn petcock to prime and wait 30 seconds still no start. Wait 4 more minutes and it starts up and it goes just fine. Some coughing 20 minutes later. This same occurrence happened three times yesterday.
        >
        > Today I took the tank off to see how the fuel was flowing thru the petcock. Good steady stream on prime if its turned all the way. Good steady stream on run and reserve with vacuum. No difference with gas cap open or closed. ??? I thought this is where I'd find the problem.
        >
        > I'm going to change the ignition sensor and see what happens. I've changed the sensor on my high mileage '95 900. But when that sensor went out it acted differently. Two coughs and then lights out. It all happens in 5 seconds, not 1 minute.
        >
        > Has anyone else had the ignition sensor takes its time to finally shuts the engine down?
        > Thanks in advance,
        > Greg Andrews
        >
      • Ed Johnson
        If it acts like it is running out of gas, and totally stops, it could be fuel! Mine was. Ed J. 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200 1964 Bonneville TT Special Indian
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 31, 2011
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          If it acts like it is running out of gas, and totally stops, it
          could be fuel! Mine was.

          Ed J.
          2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
          1964 Bonneville TT Special
          Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
          Cell - 321/795-4387


          -----Original Message-----
          From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of A Deux
          Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:27 PM
          To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Coughing, choking, then stops

          Greg

          It does seem to be heat and sensor related as long as you have not got water
          in your fuel. Is this a 900 too? Stopping completely is probably electrical.

          A2
        • Don Varnau
          That s the classic 1/4 tank fuel starvation problem. Have you done the gas cap mod (remove or drill the little rubber flappers?) Don 97 900 ... From: Greg
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 31, 2011
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            That's the classic 1/4 tank fuel starvation problem. Have you done the gas
            cap mod (remove or drill the little rubber flappers?)

            Don
            '97 900


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Greg" <gandrews[at]everestkc.net>
            To: <TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 12:13 PM
            Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Coughing, choking, then stops


            > Hi All, Cruising at 70mph, was that an engine cough or turbulent air.? Get
            away from the truck, still coughing. Another mile of more coughing then
            engine quits. Stop on the road's shoulder, open the gas cap, turn petcock to
            prime and wait 30 seconds still no start. Wait 4 more minutes and it starts
            up and it goes just fine. Some coughing 20 minutes later. This same
            occurrence happened three times yesterday.
          • A Deux
            Lean it hard to the left and if Ed is right it will recover.....mine goes on reserve at about 1/4 on the gauge. Nice one Ed A2
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 31, 2011
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              Lean it hard to the left and if Ed is right it will recover.....mine goes on reserve at about 1/4 on the gauge.

              Nice one Ed

              A2


              --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@...> wrote:
              >
              > If it acts like it is running out of gas, and totally stops, it
              > could be fuel! Mine was.
              >
              > Ed J.
              > 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
              > 1964 Bonneville TT Special
              > Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
              > Cell - 321/795-4387
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
              > On Behalf Of A Deux
              > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:27 PM
              > To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Coughing, choking, then stops
              >
              > Greg
              >
              > It does seem to be heat and sensor related as long as you have not got water
              > in your fuel. Is this a 900 too? Stopping completely is probably electrical.
              >
              > A2
              >
            • A Deux
              As it happens I have always thought that the tank needs a take off on the rhs too A2
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 31, 2011
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                As it happens I have always thought that the tank needs a take off on the rhs too
                A2



                --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "A Deux" <adeux60@...> wrote:
                >
                > Lean it hard to the left and if Ed is right it will recover.....mine goes on reserve at about 1/4 on the gauge.
                >
                > Nice one Ed
                >
                > A2
                >
                >
                > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@> wrote:
                > >
                > > If it acts like it is running out of gas, and totally stops, it
                > > could be fuel! Mine was.
                > >
                > > Ed J.
                > > 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                > > 1964 Bonneville TT Special
                > > Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                > > Cell - 321/795-4387
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                > > On Behalf Of A Deux
                > > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:27 PM
                > > To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Coughing, choking, then stops
                > >
                > > Greg
                > >
                > > It does seem to be heat and sensor related as long as you have not got water
                > > in your fuel. Is this a 900 too? Stopping completely is probably electrical.
                > >
                > > A2
                > >
                >
              • stevec1200brg
                Speaking to my Triumph dealer last week, he described your symptoms as being similar to an ignition sensor fault. Aparently ignition sensors often quit when
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 31, 2011
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                  Speaking to my Triumph dealer last week, he described your symptoms as being similar to an ignition sensor fault. Aparently ignition sensors often quit when they're hot - feels like fuel starvation - so he says...

                  I think there's a mega ohms measurement figure in the Haynes Manual(can't find it in the Triumph Factory Service Manual).
                • Greg
                  Thanks for the replies, In my original post I failed to mention the fuel level when the coughing started. It was only 20 miles since filling it up (more than
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 1, 2012
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                    Thanks for the replies, In my original post I failed to mention the fuel level when the coughing started. It was only 20 miles since filling it up (more than 3/4 full). But that was enough running time for the engine to reach operating temperature. I took the tank off to check for the fuel flow thru the petcock. I wish I could flow that well.
                    I have been carrying a spare used ignition sensor for years. I put it on, and the engine wouldn't even fire up. That spare sensor is now in the trash. The original 84,000 mile sensor is back in. It's looking more and more like an ignition sensor problem. Time for another before and after warm up ride.
                    Thanks for the input.
                    Greg

                    Hi All, Cruising at 70mph, was that an engine cough or turbulent air.? Get away from the truck, still coughing. Another mile of more coughing then engine quits. Stop on the road's shoulder, open the gas cap, turn petcock to prime and wait 30 seconds still no start. Wait 4 more minutes and it starts up and it goes just fine. Some coughing 20 minutes later. This same occurrence happened three times yesterday.
                  • Ed Johnson
                    Greg; Something else I forgot to mention. The first time my bike quit on me the vacuum hose cracked where it was connected of course closing the petcock and
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 1, 2012
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                      Greg; Something else I forgot to mention.
                      The first time my bike quit on me the vacuum hose cracked where it
                      was connected of course closing the petcock and letting it run out of gas.
                      Not knowing the my PRI position petcock was only opening about 1/3rd of the
                      way I didn't allow enough time for the float bowls to fill up. I
                      consequently ran the battery down to the point where it didn't have enough
                      power left to turn over the engine and fire the plugs at the same time.
                      Being an American model of course the lights are constantly on anytime the
                      ignition switch is on so the battery got no reprieve to self charge.
                      The second time I thought I had over heated the coils and it quit
                      the same way. First two cylinders then all. After it cooled off and it had
                      time to fill the float bowls again it fired right up. I also had it on the
                      trickle charger as well. I hadn't ridden it that far so it didn't take long
                      for the battery to recharge and I didn't have to grind on it a long time.
                      The third time it quit in the same manner was on the way to the shop
                      to find out why it kept quitting on me. What they found was that the vacuum
                      cap one of the carbs was cracked and the petcock was not getting enough
                      vacuum to stay open at regular speeds. It ran fine around the neighborhood
                      but getting a Trophy out of first gear in my neighborhood is almost
                      impossible and when I did hit second gear it was almost at an idle so there
                      was plenty of fuel flow at those speeds. As soon as my brother got it up to
                      50mph it ran out of fuel. This time I did allow a little more time for the
                      float bowls to fill up but it wouldn't re=start and my brother had to go to
                      work so we had just enough time to go get the shop trailer and haul it in.
                      They installed a Pingel petcock, plugged the vacuum tap, replaced
                      all the fuel lines, and added fuel filter to the single line feeding the
                      carbs. All the problems I have been fighting with the bike are gone! I never
                      would have suspected the petcock until I looked down the holes as I turned
                      the knob. The only time the hole lines up perfectly for full fuel flow is in
                      the RUN position. In the PRI position I have to coax them [I have two as you
                      know] to the complete PRI position to get 1/3rd of the hole to show. That
                      would be enough flow for low speed running to get you to a gas station but
                      certainly not enough to run at highway speeds. In the RES position I get
                      1/4th of the hole showing so my theory of running it in the RES position all
                      of the time so that it would feed from the bottom of the tank is what has
                      been causing my problem all of this time. BTW: In the RUN position the
                      filter/feed tube is blocked off 2 1/2 inches from the petcock. That means
                      there is 2 1/2 inches if fuel in the bottom of that big tank when you have
                      to switch over to RES. That also means there is 2 1/2 inches of room for
                      CRAP to accumulate in the bottom of the tank. I'm not sure which is heavier,
                      fuel or water but beings that ethanol ATTRACTS water there is a LOT of water
                      down there.
                      Sorry for the lengthy post but now that you've fixed my petcocks
                      Greg I think it's time to take a serious look at yours. Everyone else would
                      do well to do the same if you have occasion to have your tank off. In order
                      to see down the holes you have to take the petcock off the tank of course
                      and then remove the adapter that has the feeder tubes on it. Shine a light
                      down the holes a see how well your drum lines up the holes to the feeder
                      tubes in each position. I have two petcocks as I have mentioned and they
                      both have the same flaws which tells me it's a design error. I could be
                      wrong but I sure have a great running Trophy now and I'm not afraid to take
                      a ride on for a change. It used to be a chore to start, I never knew if I
                      was going to make it home, and it worried my wife to death every time I left
                      the garage with it.
                      Happy New Year to All and Safe Biking! [Watch out for crazy people!]


                      Ed J.
                      2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                      1964 Bonneville TT Special
                      Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                      Cell - 321/795-4387

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Ed Johnson
                      Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 4:46 PM
                      To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Coughing, choking, then stops

                      If it acts like it is running out of gas, and totally stops, it
                      could be fuel! Mine was.

                      Ed J.
                      2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                      1964 Bonneville TT Special
                      Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                      Cell - 321/795-4387


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of A Deux
                      Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:27 PM
                      To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Coughing, choking, then stops

                      Greg

                      It does seem to be heat and sensor related as long as you have not got water
                      in your fuel. Is this a 900 too? Stopping completely is probably electrical.

                      A2






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                    • gluman3
                      From my experience, when an ignition sensor fails, the tachometer will drop to zero at the same time while the motor is still spinning. If you can remember to
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 1, 2012
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                        From my experience, when an ignition sensor fails, the tachometer will drop to zero at the same time while the motor is still spinning. If you can remember to watch for this symptom when riding the bike, you will know if it is fuel related or sensor related.

                        Steve,

                        '95 Speed Triple
                        '95 Daytona Super III
                        '95 Trophy 4 1200
                        '98 Tiger

                        --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "stevec1200brg" <stevec1200brg@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Speaking to my Triumph dealer last week, he described your symptoms as being similar to an ignition sensor fault. Aparently ignition sensors often quit when they're hot - feels like fuel starvation - so he says...
                        >
                        > I think there's a mega ohms measurement figure in the Haynes Manual(can't find it in the Triumph Factory Service Manual).
                        >
                      • gordon4046
                        Last year (January 2011) when my Lady Tracey ( 92 BBB) displayed her Coughing, choking.. type symptoms I was in the throes of obtaining my Lady Sharon ( 96
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 2, 2012
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                          Last year (January 2011) when my Lady Tracey ('92 BBB) displayed her 'Coughing, choking..' type symptoms I was in the throes of obtaining my Lady Sharon ('96 BBB) so I wasn't in a rush to find out the cause..
                          When I eventually made the usual checks to coils, HT Leads, Plugs, petcock, fuel filler cap etc everything came up AOK...which just left the Ignition Sensor.
                          I'd bought one as a precaution a few months earlier, having read about their propensity for failure on this Forum, but not having a place (under cover) to work on my bike at the time I delayed changing the Sensor.
                          When I got around to it the cause of Tracey's symptoms was immediately apparent. Being a '92 model the Ignition Sensor wires entered the Sensor Coil body at a point adjacent to one of the mounting lugs, which when fitted, meant the wires were only about 1mm away from the engine casing material. A crack in the red wire insulation at that point was letting the 'signal pulse' arc across the gap and short out to the engine case. Unfortunately, the fault was VERY intermittent in nature (dependant on the environmetal conditions within the Ignition Sensor cavity ?), hence the measured approach and much head scratching. Didn't want to go diving in and destroying the evidence.
                          It was real 'DOH !' (Homer Simpson) moment for me - the sort of thing I would encounter on an almost daily basis in my 'Day-Job'. i.e if it's not the usual suspects then go for the thing you should have checked first. 20/20 hindsight is a great benefit.
                          Suffice to say replacing the early type Ignition Sensor with the later type (wires enter near the top of the Sensor Coil body when mounted) has completely cured the problem.
                          At no time during the periods of failure did I notice any untoward tachomter indications, other than the flickering one would associate with intermittent ignition/firing. Certainly didn't 'drop to zero'. Ever.
                          Haven't got my Haynes Manual or DVM to hand but the Ignition Sensor Coil 'resistance' will be in Ohms not Mega-Ohms.
                          The Air-Gap setting is also CRITICAL. Too small can result in 'touch-down' between rotor and sensor, too large gives the wrong 'shape' pulse to the Igniter Unit.

                          My Lady Sharon (refurbished/rewarranteed Monoshock fitted) and I did our first ride-out of 2012 yesterday with the Gloucester RoADAR Group. A 130 mile round-trip to the National Motorcycle Museum near the NEC (Birmingham, UK). In blustery but drying conditions the mainly country lanes and roads were damp/greasy to start with but conditions improved as the day progressed. 10 degrees Celcius is a warm day hereabouts...even so - roll on summer!

                          Happy New Year everybody!

                          Cheers
                          Gordon
                          '92 BBB Oxford Blue (aka Tracey)
                          '96 BBB BRG (aka Sharon)

                          --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "gluman3" <1triumphrider@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From my experience, when an ignition sensor fails, the tachometer will drop to zero at the same time while the motor is still spinning. If you can remember to watch for this symptom when riding the bike, you will know if it is fuel related or sensor related.
                          >
                          > Steve,
                          >
                          > '95 Speed Triple
                          > '95 Daytona Super III
                          > '95 Trophy 4 1200
                          > '98 Tiger
                          >
                          > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "stevec1200brg" <stevec1200brg@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Speaking to my Triumph dealer last week, he described your symptoms as being similar to an ignition sensor fault. Aparently ignition sensors often quit when they're hot - feels like fuel starvation - so he says...
                          > >
                          > > I think there's a mega ohms measurement figure in the Haynes Manual(can't find it in the Triumph Factory Service Manual).
                          > >
                          >
                        • gluman3
                          I expect the tach. would go to zero with an open sensor, perhaps not with a shorted sensor...
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                            I expect the tach. would go to zero with an open sensor, perhaps not with a shorted sensor...

                            --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "gordon4046" <gordon.smith29@...> wrote:

                            > At no time during the periods of failure did I notice any untoward tachomter indications, other than the flickering one would associate with intermittent ignition/firing. Certainly didn't 'drop to zero'. Ever.
                          • gordon4046
                            No doubt you are correct in that regard. I now have my DVM and Haynes Manual to hand so have done some checking just to make sure... Haynes quotes the Pickup
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                              No doubt you are correct in that regard.
                              I now have my DVM and Haynes Manual to hand so have done some checking just to make sure...
                              Haynes quotes the Pickup Coil (Ignition Sensor) resistance as 530 ohms +/- 10%. I checked my old one at 534 ohms, so in theory I could split the wiring and use heatshrink sleeve to cover up the crack in the insulation. Make a passable travelling spare.

                              Cheers
                              Gordon

                              --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "gluman3" <1triumphrider@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I expect the tach. would go to zero with an open sensor, perhaps not with a shorted sensor...
                              >
                              > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "gordon4046" <gordon.smith29@> wrote:
                              >
                              > > At no time during the periods of failure did I notice any untoward tachomter indications, other than the flickering one would associate with intermittent ignition/firing. Certainly didn't 'drop to zero'. Ever.
                              >
                            • Ed Johnson
                              Sounds like a good plan Gordon. Here s another one I think might work. I haven t seen anyone come up with a way to test the Pickup Coil (Ignition Sensor) for
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                                Sounds like a good plan Gordon.
                                Here's another one I think might work. I haven't seen anyone come up
                                with a way to test the Pickup Coil (Ignition Sensor) for failure when it
                                gets hot other than replacement and see if the problem goes away.
                                My Rube Goldberg test station would be an ohm meter, a heat gun, and
                                an infrared thermometer.
                                First test would be to use the infrared thermometer to see how hot the area
                                where the sensor lives gets. Then remove the sensor and connect it with clip
                                wires to the ohm meter to get the 530 ohm reading. Then use the heat gun to
                                heat it up to operating temperature or maybe a little above. All the while
                                checking with the infrared thermometer and watching the reading on the ohm
                                meter. If it suddenly goes to zero then BINGO you have the culprit!
                                I think it would work but look what I'm thinking with! (;-) Am I
                                missing something here?

                                Ed J.
                                2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                                1964 Bonneville TT Special
                                Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                                Cell - 321/795-4387

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                                On Behalf Of gordon4046
                                Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 11:40 AM
                                To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Coughing, choking etc.

                                No doubt you are correct in that regard.
                                I now have my DVM and Haynes Manual to hand so have done some checking just
                                to make sure...
                                Haynes quotes the Pickup Coil (Ignition Sensor) resistance as 530 ohms +/-
                                10%. I checked my old one at 534 ohms, so in theory I could split the wiring
                                and use heatshrink sleeve to cover up the crack in the insulation. Make a
                                passable travelling spare.

                                Cheers
                                Gordon
                              • A Deux
                                an oscilloscope?
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                                  an oscilloscope?


                                  --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Sounds like a good plan Gordon.
                                  > Here's another one I think might work. I haven't seen anyone come up
                                  > with a way to test the Pickup Coil (Ignition Sensor) for failure when it
                                  > gets hot other than replacement and see if the problem goes away.
                                  > My Rube Goldberg test station would be an ohm meter, a heat gun, and
                                  > an infrared thermometer.
                                  > First test would be to use the infrared thermometer to see how hot the area
                                  > where the sensor lives gets. Then remove the sensor and connect it with clip
                                  > wires to the ohm meter to get the 530 ohm reading. Then use the heat gun to
                                  > heat it up to operating temperature or maybe a little above. All the while
                                  > checking with the infrared thermometer and watching the reading on the ohm
                                  > meter. If it suddenly goes to zero then BINGO you have the culprit!
                                  > I think it would work but look what I'm thinking with! (;-) Am I
                                  > missing something here?
                                  >
                                  > Ed J.
                                  > 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                                  > 1964 Bonneville TT Special
                                  > Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                                  > Cell - 321/795-4387
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                                  > On Behalf Of gordon4046
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 11:40 AM
                                  > To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Coughing, choking etc.
                                  >
                                  > No doubt you are correct in that regard.
                                  > I now have my DVM and Haynes Manual to hand so have done some checking just
                                  > to make sure...
                                  > Haynes quotes the Pickup Coil (Ignition Sensor) resistance as 530 ohms +/-
                                  > 10%. I checked my old one at 534 ohms, so in theory I could split the wiring
                                  > and use heatshrink sleeve to cover up the crack in the insulation. Make a
                                  > passable travelling spare.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers
                                  > Gordon
                                  >
                                • Ed Johnson
                                  How would I use it to test the ignition sensor under operating conditions? Inquiring minds want to know! So far what I use would cost less than $50. How much
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                                    How would I use it to test the ignition sensor under operating conditions?
                                    Inquiring minds want to know! So far what I use would cost less than $50.
                                    How much is an oscilloscope and how long would it take to learn how to use
                                    it?

                                    Ed J.
                                    2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                                    1964 Bonneville TT Special
                                    Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                                    Cell - 321/795-4387


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                                    On Behalf Of A Deux
                                    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 3:12 PM
                                    To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Pickup Coil (Ignition Sensor)

                                    an oscilloscope?


                                    --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Sounds like a good plan Gordon.
                                    > Here's another one I think might work. I haven't seen anyone come up
                                    > with a way to test the Pickup Coil (Ignition Sensor) for failure when it
                                    > gets hot other than replacement and see if the problem goes away.
                                    > My Rube Goldberg test station would be an ohm meter, a heat gun, and
                                    > an infrared thermometer.
                                    > First test would be to use the infrared thermometer to see how hot the
                                    area
                                    > where the sensor lives gets. Then remove the sensor and connect it with
                                    clip
                                    > wires to the ohm meter to get the 530 ohm reading. Then use the heat gun
                                    to
                                    > heat it up to operating temperature or maybe a little above. All the while
                                    > checking with the infrared thermometer and watching the reading on the ohm
                                    > meter. If it suddenly goes to zero then BINGO you have the culprit!
                                    > I think it would work but look what I'm thinking with! (;-) Am I
                                    > missing something here?
                                    >
                                    > Ed J.
                                    > 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                                    > 1964 Bonneville TT Special
                                    > Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                                    > Cell - 321/795-4387
                                  • A Deux
                                    I admit it would be easier to post it to someone with a working bike and get them to test it. (for a couple of years) The problem with static tests is that the
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                                      I admit it would be easier to post it to someone with a working bike and get them to test it. (for a couple of years)

                                      The problem with static tests is that the component is normally oscillating and it may be that with age it will no longer oscillate fast enough or with sufficient amplitude to match the criteria that the ecu demands to set if off to create a spark.

                                      Mentioning the creation of the spark could be tantamount to creating electrical interference that could disrupt an oscillating signal too.

                                      It is also possible that there are adjustable resistors or capacitors or inductors in the ecu that have to be tweaked at manufacture to ensure maximum readability of the signal.(with an oscilloscope) I wouldn't go there though as the only practical, on the road solution is to put a known working sensor into place and ensure you are getting sparks before moving on to the next likely failure.

                                      A new component doesn't necessarily work until proven. Hence whatever I fit I am devising a test to ensure it functions in situ. My other maxim is to check whatever I disturbed last (which includes new components.)

                                      Still that's me.....

                                      If you consider your multimeter when you first connect it you get the fast ramp up of the signal but not the fast down ramp. You are checking it at 1.5 multimeter dc volts when in real life it is operating at maybe 12 volts ac (pure guess) or maybe it's 0.5 volts.... And it has to work up from 1 hz through to 10000 hz and has to cope with considerably more heat at 10000 hz.

                                      My feeling on resistance is that the only two usefull readings are 0 and infinite ohms. Then you know it's definately dead. Any other reading move on to suspect....

                                      Happy new year, don't be like me, enjoy the bike whilst it runs and don't think about all the components that you have dismantled and could fail....

                                      and I apologise for the oscilloscope quip as you will also need a means of generating a signal. In the meantime I set my sensor gap to the minimum but that doesn't prevent also considering setting it to the maximum or intermediate gap.


                                      A2





                                      --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > How would I use it to test the ignition sensor under operating conditions?
                                      > Inquiring minds want to know! So far what I use would cost less than $50.
                                      > How much is an oscilloscope and how long would it take to learn how to use
                                      > it?
                                      >
                                      > Ed J.
                                      > 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                                      > 1964 Bonneville TT Special
                                      > Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                                      > Cell - 321/795-4387
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                                      > On Behalf Of A Deux
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 3:12 PM
                                      > To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Pickup Coil (Ignition Sensor)
                                      >
                                      > an oscilloscope?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Sounds like a good plan Gordon.
                                      > > Here's another one I think might work. I haven't seen anyone come up
                                      > > with a way to test the Pickup Coil (Ignition Sensor) for failure when it
                                      > > gets hot other than replacement and see if the problem goes away.
                                      > > My Rube Goldberg test station would be an ohm meter, a heat gun, and
                                      > > an infrared thermometer.
                                      > > First test would be to use the infrared thermometer to see how hot the
                                      > area
                                      > > where the sensor lives gets. Then remove the sensor and connect it with
                                      > clip
                                      > > wires to the ohm meter to get the 530 ohm reading. Then use the heat gun
                                      > to
                                      > > heat it up to operating temperature or maybe a little above. All the while
                                      > > checking with the infrared thermometer and watching the reading on the ohm
                                      > > meter. If it suddenly goes to zero then BINGO you have the culprit!
                                      > > I think it would work but look what I'm thinking with! (;-) Am I
                                      > > missing something here?
                                      > >
                                      > > Ed J.
                                      > > 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200
                                      > > 1964 Bonneville TT Special
                                      > > Indian Harbour Beach, FL 32937
                                      > > Cell - 321/795-4387
                                      >
                                    • jean-pierre.desmoulins@wanadoo.fr
                                      Hi everybody First I wish you a happy 2012 year (chinese year of the dragon, the last of the Maya calendar...). I took off my ignition sensor and found it to
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                        Hi everybody

                                        First I wish you a happy 2012 year (chinese year of the dragon, the last of
                                        the Maya calendar...).
                                        I took off my ignition sensor and found it to attract iron particles
                                        (remains of engine and gearbox wear). As the principle of operation of such
                                        sensor is an electromagnetic field, I'm thinking that perhaps this
                                        accumulation can change the sensor's performance and give poor ignition,
                                        the defect appearing first at high engine temperature.
                                        Did anybody clean this sensor in all the small gaps and put it back on the
                                        engine, with some results ? When I did it, I changed so many things that I
                                        can't say if this particular point was a cause of better engine running (my
                                        carbs were also dirty).

                                        Regards
                                        JPD
                                      • gordon4046
                                        Hi JPD, The presence of debris stuck to the end of the sensor magnetic will have an effect, especially if it is ferrous. It would be better if the debris were
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                          Hi JPD,
                                          The presence of debris stuck to the end of the sensor magnetic will have an effect, especially if it is ferrous.
                                          It would be better if the debris were not there so best to remove it.
                                          The Sensor Coil core is indeed a magnet - when the 'lugs' on the rotor pass the end of this magnet they effect a change in the magnetic field which the Sensor Coil translates into a voltage 'spike'. This spike is seen by the Ignitor Unit as its cue to deliver a similar spike to each HT coil in turn...etcetera
                                          Lots of good advice from others more knowledgable than I on Trophy Matters but essentially..
                                          1). Check Sensor Coil resistance 530 ohms +/- 10 %.
                                          2). By all means use a heat gun 'sparingly' to raise its temperature (no more than 100 degrees C to be on the safe side) and watch for any sudden change in resistance i.e to Zero or Open Circuit.
                                          3). If you have access to Freezer Spray then this is also a good method of exposing temperature related failures.
                                          4) If all appears to be OK then clean Sensor to remove debris. Clean off rotor lugs as well and then remove anything (debris) that shouldn't be inside the Timing cavity.
                                          5). When the sensor has returned to ambient temperature refit it and adjust the Air-Gap as per Manual (0.4 to 0.8 mm gap). Check the gap to ALL the rotor lugs to make sure one isn't giving a 'high-spot'. Nip up the retaining screws.
                                          6). Turn the rotor a few times and re-check/re-measure the air-gap and when you're happy its not 'touching-down' anywhere then finally tighten retaining screws to the required torque - it won't be much so take it easy. (Older hands will no doubt know the term 'a calibrated elbow').
                                          7). Carry on.
                                          8). Crap in the carbs won't help either.
                                          Hope this helps. Don't mean to be patronising. Not trying to teach you to suck aggs. Just want to help is all.

                                          cheers
                                          Gordon

                                          --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, jean-pierre.desmoulins@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi everybody
                                          >
                                          > First I wish you a happy 2012 year (chinese year of the dragon, the last of
                                          > the Maya calendar...).
                                          > I took off my ignition sensor and found it to attract iron particles
                                          > (remains of engine and gearbox wear). As the principle of operation of such
                                          > sensor is an electromagnetic field, I'm thinking that perhaps this
                                          > accumulation can change the sensor's performance and give poor ignition,
                                          > the defect appearing first at high engine temperature.
                                          > Did anybody clean this sensor in all the small gaps and put it back on the
                                          > engine, with some results ? When I did it, I changed so many things that I
                                          > can't say if this particular point was a cause of better engine running (my
                                          > carbs were also dirty).
                                          >
                                          > Regards
                                          > JPD
                                          >
                                        • A Deux
                                          http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddiy&field-keywords=multimeter+digital+oscilloscope+&rh=n%3A79903031%2Ck%3Amultimeter+digital+oscill
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jan 4, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                          • A Deux
                                            Here you go Ed http://www.maplin.co.uk/hps140-handheld-pocket-oscilloscope-508678 I will add it to next Christmas wish list A2
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                              Here you go Ed

                                              http://www.maplin.co.uk/hps140-handheld-pocket-oscilloscope-508678

                                              I will add it to next Christmas' wish list

                                              A2




                                              --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "A Deux" <adeux60@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddiy&field-keywords=multimeter+digital+oscilloscope+&rh=n%3A79903031%2Ck%3Amultimeter+digital+oscilloscope+&ajr=0
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Bit pricey so I wonder if a clamp voltmeter might pickup such a low level signal?
                                              >
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