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RE: Carb balancing

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  • Ed Johnson
    The only part that has me confused a little is that in my mind it would have better to balance the carbs BEFORE adjusting the mixture. Apparently what you did
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 1, 2010
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      The only part that has me confused a little is that in my mind it
      would have better to balance the carbs BEFORE adjusting the mixture.
      Apparently what you did worked and you must have had a reason to do it that
      way. Care to fill me in?
      Ed J.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of John F
      Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 10:41 PM
      To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Motion Pro 90-degree Carb Screw Adjusting
      Screwdriver

      Hey Ed,
      I adjusted the #2 mixture screw after removing the carb bank. Once I put
      the bank back on, I hooked up the Carb Tune and then adjusted the carb
      balancing screws (3 of them) until the vacuum was around the mid-point and
      all four carbs were aligned. It worked great.

      John F
      Mpls
      96 BRG 1200
    • Greg
      Hi Ed, A good tuner will do them both at the same time. Going back a forth on them both until they are right. How did the tuner do with your today? They
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 1, 2010
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        Hi Ed, A good tuner will do them both at the same time. Going back a forth on them both until they are right. How did the tuner do with your today? They probably used a sniffer and carb sticks rather than the temp guage.
        Greg Andrews
        '96 900 BRG

        "Ed Johnson" wrote: The only part that has me confused a little is that in my mind it would have better to balance the carbs BEFORE adjusting the mixture. Care to fill me in?
        Ed J.
      • apsllp@bellsouth.net
        We are all interested in how your Trophy is running..... Bob Clark Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: Greg Sender:
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 1, 2010
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          We are all interested in how your Trophy is running.....


          Bob Clark
          Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

          -----Original Message-----
          From: "Greg" <gandrews@...>
          Sender: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 22:52:00
          To: <TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com>
          Reply-To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Carb balancing

          Hi Ed, A good tuner will do them both at the same time. Going back a forth on them both until they are right. How did the tuner do with your today? They probably used a sniffer and carb sticks rather than the temp guage.
          Greg Andrews
          '96 900 BRG

          "Ed Johnson" wrote: The only part that has me confused a little is that in my mind it would have better to balance the carbs BEFORE adjusting the mixture. Care to fill me in?
          Ed J.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John F
          Hey Ed, It would be great if you d be willing to compile it. Thanks! Today we rode down the Great River Road (along Mississippi River) from Minneapolis to
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 1, 2010
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            Hey Ed,
            It would be great if you'd be willing to compile it. Thanks!

            Today we rode down the Great River Road (along Mississippi River) from Minneapolis to LaCrosse, WI. Then we headed east on Rt. 33. Ran into some brisk wind and rain but didn't suffer too much. The beast ran perfectly.

            My wife prefers a slower pace (not too much above speed limit) so I got 37 mpg today. That's pretty good with both of us all ATGATT, panniers weighing in at about 30 lb (total for the two) and another 15 lb for the top box.

            Leads me to believe that I'd get 40 - 42 mpg if I drove the speed limit when I'm alone on the bike. Don't see that happening.

            John
          • Ed Johnson
            HI Guys; The specialist didn t show up until almost 4:30 to do my bike and worked on it forever! It now starts easy, runs great, but has a little low end
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 2, 2010
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              HI Guys;
              The specialist didn't show up until almost 4:30 to do my bike and
              worked on it forever! It now starts easy, runs great, but has a little low
              end stutter if I come off idle too fast. Kind of have to ease it up to speed
              coming off the line or just come off the line hard with the engine singing a
              little. Not real happy about that but he attributes it to almost 90,000
              miles on the clock. Being the stubborn type I'm not sure I can accept that
              as it wasn't doing that when I took it in. He used a Mercury Type carb
              balancer that they claim is the best and set the air screws by sound of the
              engine. No sniffer at all but the balancer was hooked up all of the time as
              well. He claims the stutter is a "lean" stutter and that it might get better
              using the Bob Clark tuning method: i.e."Ride the piss out of it!" He also
              recommended cleaning the "Emulsion Tubes" or "Needle Jets". The owner who
              showed me how to clean the carbs said that the needle jets don't come out of
              that model carb but my Haynes manual says they do and this guy says they do.
              Regardless we didn't clean them when we cleaned the carbs so I may have to
              pull the carbs again and do them.
              What say you John and all? Do they come out or not. I don't want to
              pull the carbs again just to find out.
              Going to work now so talk to you all later.
              Regards and thanks for caring.
              Ed J.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
              On Behalf Of apsllp@...
              Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 7:44 PM
              To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Carb balancing. Ed: how did you make out
              today?

              We are all interested in how your Trophy is running.....


              Bob Clark
              Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

              -----Original Message-----
              From: "Greg" <gandrews@...>
              Sender: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 22:52:00
              To: <TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com>
              Reply-To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Carb balancing

              Hi Ed, A good tuner will do them both at the same time. Going back a forth
              on them both until they are right. How did the tuner do with your today?
              They probably used a sniffer and carb sticks rather than the temp guage.
              Greg Andrews
              '96 900 BRG
            • Greg
              Hi Ed, (my brother also calls them emulsion tubes) The jets will come out, the main jets screw into the bottom of the needle jets. The needle jets wear out
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 2, 2010
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                Hi Ed, (my brother also calls them emulsion tubes) The jets will come out, the main jets screw into the bottom of the needle jets. The needle jets wear out because of mileage. The needles rattle inside the jet. The needles are a hard metal but the emulsion tube is a soft metal and get out of round, oval shaped. If yours are original it would be the time to replace them. You'll see on inspection, maybe the previous owner replaced them.
                He didn't use a gas analyser,damn. That's the best way to do it. But the temperature method sounds interesting.
                He kept the carb sticks on the whole time. I can't rev the engine up with my mercury carb sticks. If I did it would stuck mercury into the engine when I let off the throttle.
                The stutter coming off idle is something you won't be able to live with. The 1200 engines pull strong even from idle. Do you have a way to turn the idle air screws without pulling the carbs? 90 degree Motion Pro tool is the ticket.
                Too bad you aren't satisfied, I wouldn't be either.
                Greg Andrews
                '96 900 BRG
                80,000 smiles

                "Ed Johnson" wrote:
                but has a little low end stutter...
                No sniffer at all...
                recommended cleaning the "Emulsion Tubes" or "Needle Jets"...
                he said that the needle jets don't come out....
                Ed J.
              • Ed Johnson
                Thanks for the interest guys! I hope you can answer some of my questions but first here is how it was done. I was impressed because I had some of the finest
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 2, 2010
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                  Thanks for the interest guys! I hope you can answer some of my questions but
                  first here is how it was done. I was impressed because I had some of the
                  finest tuners in the world working on my race bikes "back in the day" and my
                  Dad would come up a say to me;"That doesn't sound right! I know I'm just a
                  truck driver but I heard you going down the straight and it's not pulling
                  like it could! Retard/Advance the timing just a C hair!" What ever he said,
                  we would do. Not because he was my Dad but because what he could hear was
                  beyond technology. It always worked.
                  This guy used the Mercury Carb bank to synch the carbs because he
                  felt it was the best! He could tell when the readings were not accurate and
                  the mercury was sticking to the insides of the tubes and he would put that
                  tube in his mouth and suck on it, blow in it, or whatever he did, until it
                  worked correctly again. Then he started working on the air jet screws with
                  the "Motion Pro Tool". I asked the owner if he was going to use a "Sniffer"
                  and Sharkey said; " He IS the sniffer!".
                  What he did from that point on was painstakingly phenomenal. He took
                  each carb and screwed it into the tight position and counted the turns. He
                  then unscrewed it until the engine physically ran better.[BTW: They got
                  "Happy about 2 turns out which is what I had them set on when he started.]
                  What he called "Happy". Then he played around in that area with blipping the
                  throttle and watching the Mercury carb stack. Next carb was the same thing.
                  Each time re-syncing the carbs each time. By the time he had finished carbs
                  3 & 4 [where he started] all he had to do was touch the starter button and
                  it was running. He then tweaked 1 & 2 in the same manner and took the time
                  to explain what he was doing. What he said was that because of emissions
                  control that all bikes were set up lean so as to meet specs for EC. What he
                  was doing was closing the jet screw [expecting the engine to run bad] then
                  opening it until the engine became "Happy" again and then going a little bit
                  more. [Richer] He could hear the difference on each carb and I was sitting
                  there the whole time and I could too! It just turned into a different
                  animal. By the time he was done and I took if for a test ride the thing was
                  a MONSTER! With the exception that it is/was what I called my day a little
                  "Cammy". I don't know what a street rig is supposed to sound like or act
                  like because I never did that kind of riding. My race bikes had to be "on
                  cam" when I left the line or I could either "Ground loop" or go into the
                  first turn with the front wheel in the air. Neither one are good things. [A
                  group loop is when you drop the clutch and the next thing you know you are
                  flat on your back on the race track with the bike on top of you! A complete
                  wheely in less than 4 feet! Not something you want to do a lot!]
                  Having said all of that; I am not advocating setting your bikes up
                  as race bikes or dragsters and quite frankly I'm not comfortable with mine
                  being that way either. That's how I've dropped it twice because of a low
                  speed "cough" and more weight than I can hold up.
                  Thought you all might be interested in how a speed tuner sets up a
                  bike. I learned a lot about how road race bikes are "mapped" to respond on
                  the track so that the rider doesn't crash but that's for another story.
                  My questions remain; Do the needle jets come out of the carbs, do
                  they screw in or just pull out, and do they have holes in the sides of them
                  or are they just a straight through jet?
                  Regards
                  Ed J.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of Greg
                  Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 9:23 AM
                  To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Carb balancing. Ed: how did you make out today?

                  Hi Ed, (my brother also calls them emulsion tubes) The jets will come out,
                  the main jets screw into the bottom of the needle jets. The needle jets wear
                  out because of mileage. The needles rattle inside the jet. The needles are a
                  hard metal but the emulsion tube is a soft metal and get out of round, oval
                  shaped. If yours are original it would be the time to replace them. You'll
                  see on inspection, maybe the previous owner replaced them.
                  He didn't use a gas analyser,damn. That's the best way to do it. But the
                  temperature method sounds interesting.
                  He kept the carb sticks on the whole time. I can't rev the engine up with my
                  mercury carb sticks. If I did it would stuck mercury into the engine when I
                  let off the throttle.
                  The stutter coming off idle is something you won't be able to live with. The
                  1200 engines pull strong even from idle. Do you have a way to turn the idle
                  air screws without pulling the carbs? 90 degree Motion Pro tool is the
                  ticket.
                  Too bad you aren't satisfied, I wouldn't be either.
                  Greg Andrews
                  '96 900 BRG
                  80,000 smiles
                • Ed Johnson
                  Going back over the Factory Pro tuning guide http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm _engines.html And the Haynes manual
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 2, 2010
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                    Going back over the Factory Pro tuning guide
                    http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm
                    _engines.html
                    And the Haynes manual there is something we didn't do while cleaning my
                    carbs is measure the float level! I'm not sure why!
                    Ed J.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Ed Johnson
                    Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 11:49 AM
                    To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [TriumphTrophy] RE: Carb balancing

                    The only part that has me confused a little is that in my mind it
                    would have better to balance the carbs BEFORE adjusting the mixture.
                    Apparently what you did worked and you must have had a reason to do it that
                    way. Care to fill me in?
                    Ed J.
                  • apsllp@bellsouth.net
                    Ed. We don t have a State emissions inspection in Florida. Running the mixture a C hair on the rich side of where it is currently set won t bother anything
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 2, 2010
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                      Ed.

                      We don't have a State emissions inspection in Florida. Running the mixture a "C" hair on the rich side of where it is currently set won't bother anything except it will cure your hesitation. I doubt there is anything wrong with your needles.

                      With the mercury synchronizer attached the tech couldn't give it a real strong "blip" between screw movements. Try richening the screws a very small amount and you will find it gets better.

                      Bob Clark

                      Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@...>
                      Sender: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:31:35
                      To: <TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com>
                      Reply-To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [TriumphTrophy] RE: Carb balancing

                      Going back over the Factory Pro tuning guide
                      http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm
                      _engines.html
                      And the Haynes manual there is something we didn't do while cleaning my
                      carbs is measure the float level! I'm not sure why!
                      Ed J.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Ed Johnson
                      Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 11:49 AM
                      To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [TriumphTrophy] RE: Carb balancing

                      The only part that has me confused a little is that in my mind it
                      would have better to balance the carbs BEFORE adjusting the mixture.
                      Apparently what you did worked and you must have had a reason to do it that
                      way. Care to fill me in?
                      Ed J.






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ed Johnson
                      Thanks Bob; It seems like a new animal today. No hesitation, twice as easy to start, and she likes having all or her decorative plastic back in place! She s a
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 2, 2010
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                        Thanks Bob;
                        It seems like a new animal today. No hesitation, twice as easy to
                        start, and she likes having all or her decorative plastic back in place!
                        She's a new woman! The only difference is that I'm running my own fuel with
                        Techron in it and no ethanol so that might have made the difference. It is
                        definitely ride able again! Give it a few days and I may change my story but
                        right now I could take a nap! That hasn't been the case in several weeks.
                        Keep in mind my bike has almost 90,000 miles on her!
                        Ed J.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                        On Behalf Of apsllp@...
                        Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 2:07 PM
                        To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] RE: Carb balancing

                        Ed.

                        We don't have a State emissions inspection in Florida. Running the mixture
                        a "C" hair on the rich side of where it is currently set won't bother
                        anything except it will cure your hesitation. I doubt there is anything
                        wrong with your needles.

                        With the mercury synchronizer attached the tech couldn't give it a real
                        strong "blip" between screw movements. Try richening the screws a very
                        small amount and you will find it gets better.

                        Bob Clark

                        Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                      • Jerry Everetts
                        Bob, send me your email address, I will send you the list and my phone number, same goes for anybody else who would like to come. [Non-text portions of this
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 2, 2010
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                          Bob, send me your email address, I will send you the list and my phone
                          number, same goes for anybody else who would like to come.





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ed Johnson
                          BTW: Bob; He has it on the richest side of rich he can get it so I doubt that I can go any more but I m going to go with your first suggestion and ride the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 2, 2010
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                            BTW: Bob; He has it on the richest side of rich he can get it so I doubt
                            that I can go any more but I'm going to go with your first suggestion and
                            ride the piss out of it. My brother arrives today so maybe we can all get
                            together soon.
                            Ed J.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                            On Behalf Of apsllp@...
                            Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 2:07 PM
                            To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] RE: Carb balancing

                            Ed.

                            We don't have a State emissions inspection in Florida. Running the mixture
                            a "C" hair on the rich side of where it is currently set won't bother
                            anything except it will cure your hesitation. I doubt there is anything
                            wrong with your needles.

                            With the mercury synchronizer attached the tech couldn't give it a real
                            strong "blip" between screw movements. Try richening the screws a very
                            small amount and you will find it gets better.

                            Bob Clark

                            Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: "Ed Johnson" <edljohnson2@...>
                            Sender: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:31:35
                            To: <TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com>
                            Reply-To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [TriumphTrophy] RE: Carb balancing

                            Going back over the Factory Pro tuning guide
                            http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm
                            _engines.html
                            And the Haynes manual there is something we didn't do while cleaning my
                            carbs is measure the float level! I'm not sure why!
                            Ed J.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                            On Behalf Of Ed Johnson
                            Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 11:49 AM
                            To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [TriumphTrophy] RE: Carb balancing

                            The only part that has me confused a little is that in my mind it
                            would have better to balance the carbs BEFORE adjusting the mixture.
                            Apparently what you did worked and you must have had a reason to do it that
                            way. Care to fill me in?
                            Ed J.






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                          • JackM
                            Ed, Check your plugs first. The off-idle hesitation you mentioned was precisely what I experienced a while back and I had one mostly-fouled plug. Changed them
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 3, 2010
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                              Ed,
                              Check your plugs first. The off-idle hesitation you mentioned was precisely what I experienced a while back and I had one mostly-fouled plug. Changed them out and it went away instantly.

                              Jack Martin
                              Placerville, CA
                              (Hangtown USA)
                            • Ed Johnson
                              Good point Jack! I just put in a new set of plugs before I took it over to have it tuned but back in my racing days NGK Plugs were notorious for fouling if the
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 3, 2010
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                                Good point Jack! I just put in a new set of plugs before I took it over to
                                have it tuned but back in my racing days NGK Plugs were notorious for
                                fouling if the mixture wasn't exactly right. All the tuning he did certainly
                                could have fouled one or more of them. I think I will give it a little more
                                time and the Bob Clark approach as I have been running Techron in my
                                non-ethanol fuel for some time now. By the time I got it to the shop it was
                                running pretty good. The tech said that he didn't expect major changes in
                                the way that it ran because nothing was very far off. Having taken one carb
                                off the rack to replace the fuel feed T he expected the synch to be way off
                                and it wasn't. I took off #4 and he said #1 & #2 were more out of synch than
                                #3 & #4.
                                Regards
                                Ed J.

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com]
                                On Behalf Of JackM
                                Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 3:37 AM
                                To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Carb balancing. Ed: how did you make out today?

                                Ed,
                                Check your plugs first. The off-idle hesitation you mentioned was precisely
                                what I experienced a while back and I had one mostly-fouled plug. Changed
                                them out and it went away instantly.

                                Jack Martin
                                Placerville, CA
                                (Hangtown USA)
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