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1995 1200

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  • bamberggreenman
    Prelude: A couple weeks ago, just after leaving a fuel station, my 95 Daytona 1200 started an erratic misfire, and completely died on the freeway(think: a low
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 2, 2008
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      Prelude:
      A couple weeks ago, just after leaving a fuel station, my 95 Daytona
      1200 started an erratic misfire, and completely died on the
      freeway(think: a low gas tank feel).

      After letting her cool down, she started right back up, but was running
      rough, as if she were choked for fuel. Holding her to 5k rpm, she would
      spit and sputter horribly. Rotating the petc0ck to R did nothing, and
      rotating it to P helped ever so slightly; However, the warmer she got,
      the worse she ran.

      Short of pulling the carbs to replace the witches hats and air
      filter(which were both done 5k miles ago), the handy-dandy search tool
      on this fantastic site pointed at possibly:
      * Cracked or kinked vacuum hose,

      * Cracked vacuum cap(s),

      * Bad ignition coil(s)-or coil connection,

      * Bad ignition sensor.

      I figured my best approach would be to:
      * Empty, then clean the fuel tank, and fuel cap.

      * Empty carburetor bowls.

      * Disassemble, then clean the petc0ck.

      * Replace vacuum caps, and line, (sleeving the tight line bend with
      steel braiding).

      * Replace spark plugs-(Had DPR9EA-9 installed 5k miles ago at my last
      valve job. BAP GEON only had DPR8EA-9, so that is what I used). Pulled
      plugs were evenly tanned across the head.

      * Clean/crimp terminals, and replace both ignition coils with Nology.

      * Replace ignition sensor (Mechanic @ dealership said 1mm gap?).

      Now:
      Upon completion, I filled the fuel lines with a little techron/gasoline
      mixture, and she fired right-up. I let her idle for about 10minutes, in
      an effort to cleanse any water/junk from the idle circuit, had bad
      gasoline been culprit. I then ran her around town and down the freeway
      for about an hour last night, before parking her in the garage. She
      still had a light sputtering issue at steady throttle, but it had
      shifted to roughly 6k rpm.

      The temperature this morning was about (5C) 40F. I went outside and
      using full choke, fired her up. She ran fine, and after about a minute
      or two, I backed the choke off.

      Getting ready to leave the drive, I shift her to 1st gear, not realizing
      the side stand was still down. She cut-off, so I raise the side stand
      and try to start her...No go. She stumbled like she was about to start,
      then nothing. Using the choke, I then try to start her...Nothing...I
      back the choke off and try again-and POW!!! A really loud backfire. Last
      chance, I try again with a half choke, and nothing, except for an awful
      noise from the starter clutch when I let off the start button.

      I think the initial Techron/gasoline mixture ratio may have been a
      little too close, thereby fouling the plugs. So, I'll likely go out and
      get some more today.

      Is there any great difference between DPR8EA and DPR9EA?

      Trusting the Triumph mechanic, I am using a 1mm gap on my ignition
      pickup. Was I incorrect to use this gap?

      Could all this just be attributed to the idle circuit on my Mikuni's
      going South?

      Any ideas y'all are willing to pitch would be greatly appreciated, as I
      have Shriner's rides this Friday and Saturday.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jack Byers
      Hi BBGM, You, and I share the same problem on the same bike. I ve been convinced buy many others going thru the same crap, that this problem is due to the
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 2, 2008
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        Hi BBGM,
        You, and I share the same problem on the same bike. I've been convinced buy many others going thru the same crap, that this problem is due to the stock set of coils. I'm switching to a set of Nology coils. Our 1200 cc babies need only two. Those little sisters (BBBS) need three. You can look 'em right up on e-bay. The problem has been so common many have switched before the trouble. Mine has near 30K miles on it, I'll bet yours isn't far off that. If you got more, you're one of the fortunate few.
        Kindest regards,
        Poppa Jack



        ________________________________
        From: bamberggreenman <SMcDonald@...>
        To: TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 8:13:40 AM
        Subject: [TriumphTrophy] 1995 1200


        Prelude:
        A couple weeks ago, just after leaving a fuel station, my 95 Daytona
        1200 started an erratic misfire, and completely died on the
        freeway(think: a low gas tank feel).

        After letting her cool down, she started right back up, but was running
        rough, as if she were choked for fuel. Holding her to 5k rpm, she would
        spit and sputter horribly. Rotating the petc0ck to R did nothing, and
        rotating it to P helped ever so slightly; However, the warmer she got,
        the worse she ran.

        Short of pulling the carbs to replace the witches hats and air
        filter(which were both done 5k miles ago), the handy-dandy search tool
        on this fantastic site pointed at possibly:
        * Cracked or kinked vacuum hose,

        * Cracked vacuum cap(s),

        * Bad ignition coil(s)-or coil connection,

        * Bad ignition sensor.

        I figured my best approach would be to:
        * Empty, then clean the fuel tank, and fuel cap.

        * Empty carburetor bowls.

        * Disassemble, then clean the petc0ck.

        * Replace vacuum caps, and line, (sleeving the tight line bend with
        steel braiding).

        * Replace spark plugs-(Had DPR9EA-9 installed 5k miles ago at my last
        valve job. BAP GEON only had DPR8EA-9, so that is what I used). Pulled
        plugs were evenly tanned across the head.

        * Clean/crimp terminals, and replace both ignition coils with Nology.

        * Replace ignition sensor (Mechanic @ dealership said 1mm gap?).

        Now:
        Upon completion, I filled the fuel lines with a little techron/gasoline
        mixture, and she fired right-up. I let her idle for about 10minutes, in
        an effort to cleanse any water/junk from the idle circuit, had bad
        gasoline been culprit. I then ran her around town and down the freeway
        for about an hour last night, before parking her in the garage. She
        still had a light sputtering issue at steady throttle, but it had
        shifted to roughly 6k rpm.

        The temperature this morning was about (5C) 40F. I went outside and
        using full choke, fired her up. She ran fine, and after about a minute
        or two, I backed the choke off.

        Getting ready to leave the drive, I shift her to 1st gear, not realizing
        the side stand was still down. She cut-off, so I raise the side stand
        and try to start her...No go. She stumbled like she was about to start,
        then nothing. Using the choke, I then try to start her...Nothing. ..I
        back the choke off and try again-and POW!!! A really loud backfire. Last
        chance, I try again with a half choke, and nothing, except for an awful
        noise from the starter clutch when I let off the start button.

        I think the initial Techron/gasoline mixture ratio may have been a
        little too close, thereby fouling the plugs. So, I'll likely go out and
        get some more today.

        Is there any great difference between DPR8EA and DPR9EA?

        Trusting the Triumph mechanic, I am using a 1mm gap on my ignition
        pickup. Was I incorrect to use this gap?

        Could all this just be attributed to the idle circuit on my Mikuni's
        going South?

        Any ideas y'all are willing to pitch would be greatly appreciated, as I
        have Shriner's rides this Friday and Saturday.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • bamberggreenman
        Thank you Mr. Byer. Unfortunately, I replaced both ignition coils(with Nology), as well as ignition sensor(Gil). Here is what I just did: * Empty, then clean
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 2, 2008
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          Thank you Mr. Byer.

          Unfortunately, I replaced both ignition coils(with Nology), as well as
          ignition sensor(Gil).

          Here is what I just did:

          * Empty, then clean the fuel tank, and fuel cap.

          * Empty carburetor bowls.

          * Disassemble, then clean the petc0ck.

          * Replace vacuum caps, and line, (sleeving the tight line bend with
          steel braiding).

          * Replace spark plugs-(Had DPR9EA-9 installed 5k miles ago at my last
          valve job. BAP GEON only had DPR8EA-9, so that is what I used). Pulled
          plugs were evenly tanned across the head.

          * Clean/crimp terminals, and replace both ignition coils with Nology.

          * Replace ignition sensor (Mechanic @ dealership said 1mm gap?).




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Greg Andrews
          Hi Bambergreen, At 5-6 grand I think you are off the idle circuit. Maybe not. Turning the fuel knob to prime and its still bad, eliminates the vacuum line to
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 2, 2008
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            Hi Bambergreen,
            At 5-6 grand I think you are off the idle circuit. Maybe not.
            Turning the fuel knob to prime and its still bad, eliminates the
            vacuum line to the petcock. Are the vacuum diaphrams okay?
            Spark plugs 9 or 8 not enough difference for what you're experiencing.
            Nology coils should have fixed it, damn its something else.
            Ignition sensor gap should be .6-.8mm (.024-.031)inch not 1.0mm
            One or two minutes of choke, my 900 would die with that much.
            Maybe the idle circuit is clogged? It is a very small orfice.
            That awful noise, was it like a hammer? Can you say sprag clutch. Damn
            First change that air gap to the correct setting.
            Hope this helps,
            Greg Andrews
            '96 900 BRG

            "bamberggreenman" wrote:
            Holding her to 5k rpm, she would spit and sputter horribly.
            P helped ever so slightly
            Replace spark plugs-(Had DPR9EA-9 installed DPR8EA-9,
            replace both ignition coils with Nology.
            Replace ignition sensor (Mechanic @ dealership said 1mm gap?).
            The temperature this morning was about (5C) 40F. I went outside and
            using full choke, fired her up. She ran fine, and after about a minute
            or two, I backed the choke off.
            except for an awful noise from the starter clutch when I let off the
            start button.
            Could all this just be attributed to the idle circuit on my Mikuni's
            going South?
          • bamberggreenman
            If the following post results in disjoined rambling...My apology, as I m only running on a few hours sleep. Before I begin, here are a few questions that any
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 3, 2008
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              If the following post results in disjoined rambling...My apology, as I'm
              only running on a few hours sleep.

              Before I begin, here are a few questions that any information on will be
              greatly appreciated:

              Do any of y'all have the TDC location for Cyl 4 scribed on the metal
              wheel?

              Are all igniter wheels adjustable? Mine is slotted, with set screws and
              5 setting-lines.

              Although GREATLY diminished, I still notice this: While steadily
              holding 5000rpm, there is what sounds like erratic popping, similar to
              the way an exhaust leak sounds. If there is surging, it is very slight.
              Also, I cannot locate any areas in my exhaust that appear to be leaking.
              Any ideas?



              1.) Changed plugs. The ones in the bike only had 300 miles:

              * Cyl 4: Piston top shiny. Plug=tan.
              * Cyl 3: Piston top slightly damp with a light carbon film.
              Plug=tan.
              * Cyl 2: Piston top wet and thicker carbon film, partially
              dissolved(came off easily with a cotton swab). Plug=lightly black and
              wet. Torque was noticeably less on plug removal as well.
              * Cyl 1: Piston top and plug, similar to Cyl 2. Torque on plug was
              o.k. though.
              * The new plug tops were coated with di-electric grease, and the new
              PVL sparkplug wires were snapped into place.



              2.) Crimp connected the leads to the Nology coils:

              * Using di-electric grease, one-way spade connectors, and crimping
              pliers, the leads were permanently attached to the coils.
              * On the PVL sparkplug wires at the coil, the copper end clip
              circumferences were reduced with pliers. The coil posts were coated
              with dielectric grease, and the sparkplug wires were snapped into place.



              3.) Vacuum hose:

              * The new braided steel vacuum hose was replaced with larger inside
              diameter nylon braided vacuum hose. This hose is supposedly,
              "kink-proof," and bought @ BAP-Geon. I cannot remember size at the
              moment. So far-so good...
              * New snap-clips were attached to both the #3 carb vacuum port, as
              well as the gas tank.
              * Vacuum caps on other cylinders were dotted with "pookie," and
              reinstalled. This stuff is a Toyota dealership item. It is not RTV.
              It is black, and will adhere to anything, including oily surfaces-even
              curing while fully submerged in oil. I have only had luck removing
              uncured product from my skin using DEET. If it dries on your skin, it
              must wear-off. Cured product will ruin clothes, walls...
              * While inserting the vacuum hose clip to the petcock, my hand
              slipped. Grazing the selector knob, it snapped(Prior to this, the knob
              was working, and in the correct location, having tested it just minutes
              before).

              4.) Ignition Sensor:

              * As it was originally at 1,0mm gap, per the Triumph mechanic @ the
              dealership, I re-adjusted it to 0,685mm- being that the shop manual
              states a gapping range between 0,6mm-0,8mm.
              * Questions: Do any of y'all have the TDC location for Cyl 4 scribed
              on the metal wheel? Are all igniter wheels adjustable? Mine is
              slotted, with set screws and 5 setting-lines.

              5.) Carburetor:

              * Try as I might, the "witches hats" could not be accessed for
              inspection. Whoever invented those, and conjured the airbox
              servicing...Both need to be burned at the stake.
              * I thought long and hard about removing the float bowls again, but
              looking at the beating my hands took from just the other day, caused me
              to delay that action.

              6.) Gas Cap:

              * I'm not real sure what I was supposed to look for on this one.
              There were two opposing orange diaphrams with an access channel, I
              assume connecting them, to outside air. Again, there were two. I
              removed both. Whether these were the tip-over valves, I do not know.
              Nothing else resembling valves were noted in the gascap design.
              * Quite by accident during the diaphram extraction, I lost the
              uber-tiny spring and ball. These I later came to realize function to
              hold open the metal flap which exposes the key hole in the gasoline cap.
              Oh well...

              7.) Kickstand Kill-Switch:

              * Other than spray some penetrating oil into it's operation, I did
              not monkey with the switch.



              Installing the charged battery and bumping the starter, she immediately
              started at half-choke. I quickly stopped the choke, and she idled @
              approx 1000rpm. I let her idle like this until she drained the carbs,
              and I buttoned her back-up, at approx 1:30am this morning.

              At 5:30am later this morning, I went out and fired her up, again at half
              choke. Raising the kickstand, I engaged 1st gear, and removed the
              choke.

              Still not 100% confident, I stayed on the freeway access road. Figuring
              that all that partially emulsified garbage seen on top of the pistons
              earlier was on it's way out, I piddled-along at a high rpm, while in a
              low gear.

              Gaining confidence, I got onto the freeway and rode into town.

              Things noticed:

              * Previous, off-idle hesitation is gone.
              * Much smoother @ idle.
              * Surging has pretty much been eliminated.
              * The occasional hiccup at idle (which typically drops rpm 500-700rpm
              for 0,5 seconds), has been reduced. I noticed it twice on my 1.5hr
              commute this morning.
              * Although GREATLY diminished, I still notice this: While steadily
              holding 5000rpm, there is what sounds like erratic popping, similar to
              the way an exhaust leak sounds. If there is surging, it is very slight.
              Also, I cannot locate any areas in my exhaust that appear to be leaking.
              Any ideas?

              Thanks everybody!

              Best Regards,

              -Scott

              --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Andrews" <gandrews@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Hi Bambergreen,
              > At 5-6 grand I think you are off the idle circuit. Maybe not.
              > Turning the fuel knob to prime and its still bad, eliminates the
              > vacuum line to the petcock. Are the vacuum diaphrams okay?
              > Spark plugs 9 or 8 not enough difference for what you're experiencing.
              > Nology coils should have fixed it, damn its something else.
              > Ignition sensor gap should be .6-.8mm (.024-.031)inch not 1.0mm
              > One or two minutes of choke, my 900 would die with that much.
              > Maybe the idle circuit is clogged? It is a very small orfice.
              > That awful noise, was it like a hammer? Can you say sprag clutch. Damn
              > First change that air gap to the correct setting.
              > Hope this helps,
              > Greg Andrews
              > '96 900 BRG



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Martin
              Scott, I cannot imagine how a cylinder can be firing if the piston and plug are wet. Any combustion would easily burn that off in my opinion. Given you say
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 4, 2008
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                Scott,

                I cannot imagine how a cylinder can be firing if the piston and plug
                are wet. Any combustion would easily burn that off in my opinion.

                Given you say that pots 1 and 2 were wet, plus 3 slightly, there is
                no way the bike would run if it was only firing on pots 3 & 4. Pots
                1 & 2 run on different coils (on my 2003 1200 anyway), so I can only
                assume that the carbs are leaking fuel into the cylinders even when
                the engine is not running.

                If so, I suspect knackered float bowl valves in at least pots 1 & 2,
                and unless you are leaving the fuel tap in Prime, I suspect the fuel
                tap to be faulty also.

                Sounds to me that you need to simply swap the carbs for a new set,
                as it looks like you have made the ignition side now perfect.

                On the plus side, carbs are relatively cheap from eBay and the like.
                On the negative side, re-fitting the throttle cable to new carbs is
                a right pain in the backside.

                Just my thoughts,

                Martin.
                2003 1200 30k miles
                Bath, England
              • matt.speedtriple
                Re: On the negative side, re-fitting the throttle cable to new carbs is a right pain in the backside. The easiest way to get around cable fitting is, to remove
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 4, 2008
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                  Re: On the negative side, re-fitting the throttle cable to new carbs is
                  a right pain in the backside.

                  The easiest way to get around cable fitting is, to remove cable
                  completely from bike, fit to carbs and the once carbs are attached to
                  engine then route back upto throttle grip.
                • cpallenjr
                  Maybe a vacuum leak at the carb rubbers? supposedly you can spray wd40 or similar around on the rubbers at idle and if the idle changes you have a leak.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 4, 2008
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                    Maybe a vacuum leak at the carb rubbers? supposedly you can spray
                    wd40 or similar around on the rubbers at idle and if the idle changes
                    you have a leak.

                    Courtney in Seattle


                    --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "bamberggreenman"
                    <SMcDonald@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you Mr. Byer.
                    >
                    > Unfortunately, I replaced both ignition coils(with Nology), as well
                    as
                    > ignition sensor(Gil).
                    >
                    > Here is what I just did:
                    >
                    > * Empty, then clean the fuel tank, and fuel cap.
                    >
                    > * Empty carburetor bowls.
                    >
                    > * Disassemble, then clean the petc0ck.
                    >
                    > * Replace vacuum caps, and line, (sleeving the tight line bend with
                    > steel braiding).
                    >
                    > * Replace spark plugs-(Had DPR9EA-9 installed 5k miles ago at my
                    last
                    > valve job. BAP GEON only had DPR8EA-9, so that is what I used).
                    Pulled
                    > plugs were evenly tanned across the head.
                    >
                    > * Clean/crimp terminals, and replace both ignition coils with
                    Nology.
                    >
                    > * Replace ignition sensor (Mechanic @ dealership said 1mm gap?).
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
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