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Dyno in Northern CA?

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  • rjkoolkin
    I just had a major service done on my 02 Trophy 1200, and the mileage is now 10% worse than before the service! At the shop they said We set everything to
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 1, 2006
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      I just had a major service done on my '02 Trophy 1200, and the mileage
      is now 10% worse than before the service! At the shop they said "We
      set everything to spec." and were not interested in taking a look
      unless I paid for their diagnostic time. (I don't think I'll be going
      back there.)

      I won't have the time to wrench on it myself for a long while, and I
      don't know anything about carbs anyway, so I want to find a shop that
      has (or has access to) a dyno and who can tune my bike using it.
      Anyone have any recommendations for a shop in the Silicon Valley area
      of Northern CA?

      Rick
      '02 1200 Azure Blue
    • John Elliott
      www.calmoto.com These guys are supposed to be pretty good. I would give them a try (if you haven t already) rjkoolkin wrote:
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 1, 2006
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        www.calmoto.com

        These guys are supposed to be pretty good. I would give them a try (if you haven't already)


        rjkoolkin <rjkoolkin@...> wrote:
        I just had a major service done on my '02 Trophy 1200, and the mileage
        is now 10% worse than before the service! At the shop they said "We
        set everything to spec." and were not interested in taking a look
        unless I paid for their diagnostic time. (I don't think I'll be going
        back there.)

        I won't have the time to wrench on it myself for a long while, and I
        don't know anything about carbs anyway, so I want to find a shop that
        has (or has access to) a dyno and who can tune my bike using it.
        Anyone have any recommendations for a shop in the Silicon Valley area
        of Northern CA?

        Rick
        '02 1200 Azure Blue






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      • Greg Andrews
        Hi Rick, Try to find a dyno that has a four gas analyser, like Factory Pro. Greg Andrews rjkoolkin wrote: I want to find a shop that has a dyno and who can
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 1, 2006
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          Hi Rick,
          Try to find a dyno that has a four gas analyser, like Factory Pro.
          Greg Andrews

          "rjkoolkin" wrote:
          I want to find a shop that has a dyno and who can tune my bike
          Rick
          '02 1200 Azure Blue
        • Phil Smith
          Rick It s not that bad Not to second guess you, but what is the previous gas mileage and what is the new? What exactly did they do to the beast? If I had been
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 2, 2006
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            Rick
            It's not that bad
            Not to second guess you, but what is the previous gas mileage and
            what is the new?

            What exactly did they do to the beast?

            If I had been getting 40mpg (rarely) and lost 10 percent it's only
            36mpg and that's not something that I'd throw $500 at the bike to
            improve. I think our informal survey would average a trophy 1200 at
            40 + or - 10 percent. right now I'm happy with 35mpg. but thats
            another lesson in trouble.

            OPINE
            Every time I have had the shop do a service it took two tanks of gas
            to get a reliable gas mileage figure. I'll guess that with
            a "major" they had the tank off and "lost" gas from filling the
            carbs twice and running it up without wheels making mileage.etc.

            First is it running well/good. Does it idle smoothly and does it
            have the Trophy power?

            DYNOS
            MY opinion
            They can tell you alot if they are run right. You can't get a fuel
            air mix read on a 1200 trophy unless you read it off each pipe. If
            the dyno guy reads the mix from the exhaust sliencer pipe, he's
            guessing and estimating. you need to get a read off the downpipe
            from the motor. With the four carbs spouting into the 2 to 1
            combiner pipe and with the crossover, you can not get a true read
            from the silencer.

            If you are going to get a DYNO run remove the side and bottom
            fairings first or they will get you for the time to remove the
            plastic. Some will want to run the dyno from the CDI but it can get
            a good reading from the #4 plug wire without removing the tank. If
            they are going to fiddle with the carbs (diaphrams/needle height)
            the tank will have to come off and the time goes up.

            A dyno tune with no target can get spendy. After 6 months of
            fighting with MY "tuning the beast" a carb change is significant.
            My trusted dealer has convinced me that the quality of the MIKUNIs
            should keep them ok for at least 50K before jets/needles/etc. If
            the bike is fairly stock it shouldn't be too bad. Stock needle
            settings and Main jets and a vacuum balance and not much more to do.

            The first step for me would be to get a basic run from the dyno guy
            you can find (usually about $70) for a run with air/fuel mix and see
            what you have, then decide.

            You might have been too lean and with less power and now you're at
            the top of the curve.

            In 6 months I've done 6 dyno runs and had 4 complete work overs to
            get mine right. Some repeat time was due to bad primary wire and
            changing main jets and needles and CAMS!

            NORCAL SERVICE
            Phil Koken had a shop on NORCAL do his bike and was very happy with
            the results.

            Also he had a good shop in the area that did his regular service
            stuff.

            I learned the hard way, more than once, Don't rush to solve the
            problem. Step by step the people on this group are VERY good at
            taking the logical steps and helping.

            Look to the simple things first and do a careful check of the gas
            mileage first. three tanks and total miles should give a giood
            average. I can get 50mpg but who wants to.

            phil



            > I just had a major service done on my '02 Trophy 1200, and the
            mileage
            > is now 10% worse than before the service! At the shop they said "We
            > set everything to spec." and were not interested in taking a look
            > unless I paid for their diagnostic time. (I don't think I'll be
            going
            > back there.)
            >
            > I won't have the time to wrench on it myself for a long while, and
            I
            > don't know anything about carbs anyway, so I want to find a shop
            that
            > has (or has access to) a dyno and who can tune my bike using it.
            > Anyone have any recommendations for a shop in the Silicon Valley
            area
            > of Northern CA?
            >
            > Rick
            > '02 1200 Azure Blue
            >
          • rjkoolkin
            ... Phil, Second guess away. I can use all the help I can get. Even though I bought the bike in August of 02, I haven t ridden or wrenched on it as much as I
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 3, 2006
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              --- In TriumphTrophy@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Smith" <pjsmithres@...> wrote:
              >
              > Rick
              > It's not that bad
              > Not to second guess you, but what is the previous gas mileage and
              > what is the new?

              Phil,
              Second guess away. I can use all the help I can get. Even though I
              bought the bike in August of '02, I haven't ridden or wrenched on it
              as much as I did my other bikes (I haven't had the commute I used to,
              and my honey-do list is longer than it used to be), so I still feel
              like a newbie when it comes to this stuff. Also, I have never worked
              on carbs before, and it seems to me that this is where the issue is.

              Here are the figures. Before the service my combined mileage was 32
              mpg (34 highway, 30 city). Now, after 4 complete tanks my combined is
              29 mpg (32 highway, 27 city).

              > What exactly did they do to the beast?

              It was a 12K service: full tune-up, R&R plugs, oil change, check
              and/or change fluids, lots of checks, checked the valves, etc.
              (everything the book said to do). When I took it in for service, I
              specifically said I thought I should be getting a little better
              mileage than I was getting, and I asked them to take a careful look at
              the carb settings.

              >
              > If I had been getting 40mpg (rarely) and lost 10 percent it's only
              > 36mpg and that's not something that I'd throw $500 at the bike to
              > improve. I think our informal survey would average a trophy 1200 at
              > 40 + or - 10 percent. right now I'm happy with 35mpg. but thats
              > another lesson in trouble.

              I'd be happy with 35 mpg combined (and happier with more). FYI, I have
              a Clearview screen about 2 inches taller than stock, heated grips, and
              a luggage rack (no top box), and I am running (and loving) the Avon
              Azaro tires, so the bike is pretty much stock (no K&N, scott-oiler, or
              after market exhausts).

              >
              > OPINE
              > Every time I have had the shop do a service it took two tanks of gas
              > to get a reliable gas mileage figure. I'll guess that with
              > a "major" they had the tank off and "lost" gas from filling the
              > carbs twice and running it up without wheels making mileage.etc.
              >
              > First is it running well/good. Does it idle smoothly and does it
              > have the Trophy power?

              Yes and no. Is it running good? Yes. Great. But _not_ better than
              before the service. Power seems to be a bit smoother when
              accelerating, but it doesn't have more power, it is just that the
              power rolls-on and off smoother (maybe even a bit less responsively
              now that I really think about it). When hot, it idles faster and
              doesn't return to lower idle speed (800-1000 rpm) as fast as it used
              to. I am not noticing any odors of gas, but it does seems like it is
              running hotter than it was.

              Fundamentally, I need to either get the tools and learn to do it
              myself, or I need to fid a place I can trust and pay them to do it.
              I'd rather do it myself, but I don't have the time now (and I won't
              for the forseeable future), and I would rather spend what little time
              I do have in the saddle, rather than in the garage.

              After my most recent experience (not the first bad one with this
              dealer), I thought I might be better off going to a
              performance-oriented shop and avoiding the
              "we-only-do-it-to-the-factory-spec" party line.

              I've never had a bike on a DYNO before, but I want to make sure the
              bike is tuned right, not just to factory spec. and I have lost
              confidence in the dealer.

              So that's where I am now. I think I have Phil K's email address
              somewhere, maybe I'll email him and ask for a recommendation.

              Thanks,
              Rick
              '02 1200 Azure Blue

              >
              > DYNOS
              > MY opinion
              > They can tell you alot if they are run right. You can't get a fuel
              > air mix read on a 1200 trophy unless you read it off each pipe. If
              > the dyno guy reads the mix from the exhaust sliencer pipe, he's
              > guessing and estimating. you need to get a read off the downpipe
              > from the motor. With the four carbs spouting into the 2 to 1
              > combiner pipe and with the crossover, you can not get a true read
              > from the silencer.
              >
              > If you are going to get a DYNO run remove the side and bottom
              > fairings first or they will get you for the time to remove the
              > plastic. Some will want to run the dyno from the CDI but it can get
              > a good reading from the #4 plug wire without removing the tank. If
              > they are going to fiddle with the carbs (diaphrams/needle height)
              > the tank will have to come off and the time goes up.
              >
              > A dyno tune with no target can get spendy. After 6 months of
              > fighting with MY "tuning the beast" a carb change is significant.
              > My trusted dealer has convinced me that the quality of the MIKUNIs
              > should keep them ok for at least 50K before jets/needles/etc. If
              > the bike is fairly stock it shouldn't be too bad. Stock needle
              > settings and Main jets and a vacuum balance and not much more to do.
              >
              > The first step for me would be to get a basic run from the dyno guy
              > you can find (usually about $70) for a run with air/fuel mix and see
              > what you have, then decide.
              >
              > You might have been too lean and with less power and now you're at
              > the top of the curve.
              >
              > In 6 months I've done 6 dyno runs and had 4 complete work overs to
              > get mine right. Some repeat time was due to bad primary wire and
              > changing main jets and needles and CAMS!
              >
              > NORCAL SERVICE
              > Phil Koken had a shop on NORCAL do his bike and was very happy with
              > the results.
              >
              > Also he had a good shop in the area that did his regular service
              > stuff.
              >
              > I learned the hard way, more than once, Don't rush to solve the
              > problem. Step by step the people on this group are VERY good at
              > taking the logical steps and helping.
              >
              > Look to the simple things first and do a careful check of the gas
              > mileage first. three tanks and total miles should give a giood
              > average. I can get 50mpg but who wants to.
              >
              > phil
              >
              >
              >
              > > I just had a major service done on my '02 Trophy 1200, and the
              > mileage
              > > is now 10% worse than before the service! At the shop they said "We
              > > set everything to spec." and were not interested in taking a look
              > > unless I paid for their diagnostic time. (I don't think I'll be
              > going
              > > back there.)
              > >
              > > I won't have the time to wrench on it myself for a long while, and
              > I
              > > don't know anything about carbs anyway, so I want to find a shop
              > that
              > > has (or has access to) a dyno and who can tune my bike using it.
              > > Anyone have any recommendations for a shop in the Silicon Valley
              > area
              > > of Northern CA?
              > >
              > > Rick
              > > '02 1200 Azure Blue
              > >
              >
            • Bud Izen
              Like so many of us, when I purchased my 99 900 back in the fall of 01 (has it really been five years? wow!) I had no idea, in specific terms, how to work on
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 3, 2006
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                Like so many of us, when I purchased my '99 900 back in the fall of '01 (has
                it really been five years? wow!) I had no idea, in specific terms, how to
                work on the bike, or even if I should. At the time I bought the Trophy, all
                I owned was a 1982 Yamaha Seca 750, a very easy bike to work on, but not
                exactly in the same technology space as the Tropy. By leaning on the advice
                of several people in this group, I figured out that if I purchased a few
                specialty tools, the manuals, and went slowly, and asked for help when I
                needed it, I could learn to do all the routine maintenance myself.

                I was initially put off by the thought of having to take so many pieces off
                the bike before being able to get to the carbs and valves, for example, but
                Bruce Carter (BruceTrophy) in Texas struck up an off-line discussion with me
                that went on for several years, and gave me very specific guidance the
                first couple of times. Compared to other bikes I have owned (ESPECIALLY in
                comparison with my '82 Bonneville Royal) it is of course MUCH more tedious
                to work on, but none of the work is difficult, just much more time consuming
                (I still think we should find and kill the "engineer" who "designed" that
                awful air cleaner box). Of course, five years down the road, I am no longer
                daunted by the prospect of "field stripping" the bike, and everything takes
                far less time to accomplish than it once did.

                There's been a lot of discussion over using Dyno tuning to get the very most
                performance out of the Trophy. This reminds me of the old joke, about how to
                tell the difference between an engineer and a technician. If you ignore the
                sexist and immature aspect of the joke (told to me in junior college about
                2000 years ago), I think it captures the difference in a nutshell. Bear with
                me:

                In order to determine the difference between an engineer and a technician,
                scientists staged this experiment. They put an engineer and a technician at
                one end of a long hallway and a beautiful girl not wearing any clothes at
                the other end. The scientists told both men that every time the whistle blew
                they could advance half way between themselves and the girl. The first
                whistle blew and the technician starts off by running half way down the
                hallway. The engineer did not move. The whistle blew again, and again the
                technician ran half way and the engineer remained immobile. The scientists
                went over to the engineer and asked why he had not moved. He replied that by
                cutting the distance in half each time, he would actually never reach the
                girl. The scientists then went down the hallway towards the technician.
                Asked if he had heard the engineer's explanation, the technician replied
                that yes that might be true, but in a while he would get CLOSE ENOUGH FOR
                ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES.

                Well, needless to say, I am, by training and former career, an engineering
                technician. Close enough for all practical purposes is good enough for me.

                What has this to do with Trophy performance? Well, there is a practical
                limit to what I want to spend on optimum performance. First of all, when our
                bikes come from the factory, they are pretty well set up, as is, to do a
                great job in terms of performance and gas mileage. Yes, there have been
                factory errors, and my intention is not to start a flame war about this. My
                point is that you don't have to go out and immediately buy a bunch of third
                party add ons, just to get (let's call it) very good performance out of the
                bike. In my case, it was down to pulling the carbs, removing the EPA plugs,
                setting the mixture screws evenly, and then balancing and syncing them. Made
                more of a difference than I thought possible, both in terms of mileage and
                performance.

                The most important thing I learned from Bruce is that properly adjusted and
                synced carbs makes more of a difference in performance than anything else.
                For that reason, I have endeavored to keep the carbs in good adjustment, and
                when I feel the performance or mileage begin to deteriorate, that's when the
                pieces come off and the carbs get adjusted. Since becoming aware of this, my
                mileage at cruising (usually between 70 and 80) is generally between 40 and
                45 mpg (altitude is a significant factor) and sustained speeds over 90 make
                it fall to around 35. I do use my bike for touring/sport rather than
                sport/touring because I like long distance trips with little or no freeway
                miles, and the reality is that canyon carving and twisties are what I love,
                but getting to them takes longer (on average) than going through them on a
                majority of my rides.

                Rain or no, I tend to ride all year around (one major reason I selected the
                Trophy in the first place was the full fairing), so I ride on nothing but
                Avon tyres (Azaro IIs at the moment).

                In 22,000 + miles, I have never been dissatisfied with the Trophy's
                performance. Years ago, a buddy that I met off this list met me on his 1200
                for a short ride through some twisties up on Washington state. Trust me, I
                had no difficulty whatsoever keeping up, and when I go on infrequent group
                rides, I have NO difficulty at all staying with or staying ahead of my
                sportbike riding buddies.

                I think, before looking to throw money at dyno testing or (in my opinion)
                even worse, paying a shop to try to tune or otherwise "improve" your bike's
                performance, you get more "bang for the buck" by just resorting to the
                basics and making sure that the valves are set correctly and the carbs are
                adjusted properly (especially the mixture screws) and synced up. I also
                agree that by leaning on the expertise of those contributors within this
                group, you can go far towards saving yourself a lot of money and insuring
                that your bike works the way it should by doing the work (or at least most
                of it) yourself.

                Everyone's different, I realize, but I find there is no better feeling than
                I get when I first take the bike on the road after a major tune or carb
                balance.

                Just my very long-winded two cents worth.

                Bud Izen
                Turner Oregon

                '99 Platinum 900



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Phil Smith
                GOOD WORDS BUD ... opinion) ... your bike s ... the ... carbs are ... also ... within this ... insuring ... least most ... feeling than ... carb
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 3, 2006
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                  GOOD WORDS BUD


                  > I think, before looking to throw money at dyno testing or (in my
                  opinion)
                  > even worse, paying a shop to try to tune or otherwise "improve"
                  your bike's
                  > performance, you get more "bang for the buck" by just resorting to
                  the
                  > basics and making sure that the valves are set correctly and the
                  carbs are
                  > adjusted properly (especially the mixture screws) and synced up. I
                  also
                  > agree that by leaning on the expertise of those contributors
                  within this
                  > group, you can go far towards saving yourself a lot of money and
                  insuring
                  > that your bike works the way it should by doing the work (or at
                  least most
                  > of it) yourself.
                  >
                  > Everyone's different, I realize, but I find there is no better
                  feeling than
                  > I get when I first take the bike on the road after a major tune or
                  carb
                  > balance.
                  >
                  > Just my very long-winded two cents worth.
                  >
                  > Bud Izen
                  > Turner Oregon
                  >
                  > '99 Platinum 900
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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