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  • emz4585
    SN.IV.174 says to consider: the four elements (matter, of our bodies) as snakes, the khandha (ourselves, persons) as murderers, and the objects of the senses
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 5, 2013
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      SN.IV.174 says to consider:
      the four elements (matter, of our bodies) as snakes,
      the khandha (ourselves, persons) as murderers,
      and the objects of the senses (the world) as a gang of thieves.

      What’s frightful here?

      Those things themselves? Isn't that standard Theravada?

      Or that any of those have the potential to lead us into tanha, grasping at
      them, upadana, clinging attachment? I go with that, and take it as a good
      reading of the suttas (and hopefully Theravada as well).

      metta, stephen
    • Benoit Santerre
      In a high stage in vipassana meditation is described a moment when one sees the extremely rapid, moment-to-moment, dissolution of mind and body. One comes to
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 6, 2013
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        In a high stage in vipassana meditation is described a moment when one sees the extremely rapid, moment-to-moment, dissolution of mind and body. One comes to experience the rise and fall of phenomena as oppressive. This is called nibida in pali, which means strong disenchantment with everything that arises and passes away. And yes a comparison is made (I think in the visuddhimagga) with catching a snake in a fishing net, thinking it`s a fish at first but suddenly discovering it`s a snake. One let`s go of it immediately.
         
        In the same way, when one discovers that our khandas are so rapidly dying each moment, one is struck with disenchantment. Without that kind of disenchantment, it is not possible to let go of the tanha and clinging to the khandas and realiza Nibbana.
         
        When I began in Buddhism I used to think that the khandas were neither pleasant nor suffering in themselves, but that suffering came when you add tanha and clining to them. Even some known modern Buddhist teachers see it that way.
        However, I came to understand through Theravada Buddhism (from suttas and also masters such as Mahasi Sayadawe and Mogok Sayadaw) that actually, the khandas are considered pure dukkha whether you cling to them or not. For example, the body of an Arahant can still experience serious diseases.
         
        The khandas are viewed as being created by that very tanha in the first place, so they are not `neutral`. The tanha and clinging to them adds to the suffering and creates the conditions for the arising of future khandas. So khandas are a result of delusion and craving.
         
        The difference for an Arahant, fully liberated from tanha and attachment, is that he or she has equanimity toward the khandas, despite still viewing them as pure dukkha. In fact, his attainment showed him the true nature of the khandas as nothing but dukkha. Another difference with the arahant is that he or she knows "the escape" (i.e. Nibbana) from the khandas.
         
        For the four snakes analogy, one of Mogok Sayadaw`s disciples (I think Aung San Sayadaw), has talked about this, saying that for all of us, it is one of the four elements that will kill us at the end of our life. For example, a stroke is, if I remember well, a case of the wind element killing us.
         
        The four elements are rarely, if ever, in perfect balance. When in good balance, bodily health is the result. But perfect health is never the case. There`s always some discomforts in the body. Put yourself in the most comfortable position you can imagine, and keep that position. I garantee you that the comfort will soon be gone. We move most of the time because of discomfort in the body. The body is, indeed, uncomfortable by nature, whether there is tanha or not. The four elements are bound to separate, with death as result.
         
        The khandas are a self-destruction machine. It is delusion that makes us believe that well-being is possible in those khandas.
         
        That the khandas are dukkha may seem depressing. But when you truly contemplate this, it can give rise to great peace in realizing we can stop our stressful struggle to find happiness in the khandas.
         
        metta,
         
        Benoit


         


        SN.IV.174 says to consider:
        the four elements (matter, of our bodies) as snakes,
        the khandha (ourselves, persons) as murderers,
        and the objects of the senses (the world) as a gang of thieves.

        What’s frightful here?

        Those things themselves? Isn't that standard Theravada?

        Or that any of those have the potential to lead us into tanha, grasping at
        them, upadana, clinging attachment? I go with that, and take it as a good
        reading of the suttas (and hopefully Theravada as well).

        metta, stephen

      • Dammavani Team
        @benoit very well said. On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Benoit Santerre ... -- Warm regards & Much metta May all beings be happy. *
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 6, 2013
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          @benoit very well said.

          On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Benoit Santerre <benoit_santerre@...> wrote:
           

          In a high stage in vipassana meditation is described a moment when one sees the extremely rapid, moment-to-moment, dissolution of mind and body. One comes to experience the rise and fall of phenomena as oppressive. This is called nibida in pali, which means strong disenchantment with everything that arises and passes away. And yes a comparison is made (I think in the visuddhimagga) with catching a snake in a fishing net, thinking it`s a fish at first but suddenly discovering it`s a snake. One let`s go of it immediately.
           
          In the same way, when one discovers that our khandas are so rapidly dying each moment, one is struck with disenchantment. Without that kind of disenchantment, it is not possible to let go of the tanha and clinging to the khandas and realiza Nibbana.
           
          When I began in Buddhism I used to think that the khandas were neither pleasant nor suffering in themselves, but that suffering came when you add tanha and clining to them. Even some known modern Buddhist teachers see it that way.
          However, I came to understand through Theravada Buddhism (from suttas and also masters such as Mahasi Sayadawe and Mogok Sayadaw) that actually, the khandas are considered pure dukkha whether you cling to them or not. For example, the body of an Arahant can still experience serious diseases.
           
          The khandas are viewed as being created by that very tanha in the first place, so they are not `neutral`. The tanha and clinging to them adds to the suffering and creates the conditions for the arising of future khandas. So khandas are a result of delusion and craving.
           
          The difference for an Arahant, fully liberated from tanha and attachment, is that he or she has equanimity toward the khandas, despite still viewing them as pure dukkha. In fact, his attainment showed him the true nature of the khandas as nothing but dukkha. Another difference with the arahant is that he or she knows "the escape" (i.e. Nibbana) from the khandas.
           
          For the four snakes analogy, one of Mogok Sayadaw`s disciples (I think Aung San Sayadaw), has talked about this, saying that for all of us, it is one of the four elements that will kill us at the end of our life. For example, a stroke is, if I remember well, a case of the wind element killing us.
           
          The four elements are rarely, if ever, in perfect balance. When in good balance, bodily health is the result. But perfect health is never the case. There`s always some discomforts in the body. Put yourself in the most comfortable position you can imagine, and keep that position. I garantee you that the comfort will soon be gone. We move most of the time because of discomfort in the body. The body is, indeed, uncomfortable by nature, whether there is tanha or not. The four elements are bound to separate, with death as result.
           
          The khandas are a self-destruction machine. It is delusion that makes us believe that well-being is possible in those khandas.
           
          That the khandas are dukkha may seem depressing. But when you truly contemplate this, it can give rise to great peace in realizing we can stop our stressful struggle to find happiness in the khandas.
           
          metta,
           
          Benoit


           


          SN.IV.174 says to consider:
          the four elements (matter, of our bodies) as snakes,
          the khandha (ourselves, persons) as murderers,
          and the objects of the senses (the world) as a gang of thieves.

          What’s frightful here?

          Those things themselves? Isn't that standard Theravada?

          Or that any of those have the potential to lead us into tanha, grasping at
          them, upadana, clinging attachment? I go with that, and take it as a good
          reading of the suttas (and hopefully Theravada as well).

          metta, stephen




          --
          Warm regards & Much metta



          May all beings be happy.

          Dhammavani Team


          +91 805 3278591

          www.dhammavani.org
        • Dammavani Team
          When something can be read without effort, great effort has gone into its writing. Enrique Jardiel Poncela Above is so apt about the following writing. On Wed,
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 6, 2013
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            When something can be read without effort, great effort has gone into its writing. Enrique Jardiel Poncela
            Above is so apt about the following writing.

            On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Benoit Santerre <benoit_santerre@...> wrote:
             

            In a high stage in vipassana meditation is described a moment when one sees the extremely rapid, moment-to-moment, dissolution of mind and body. One comes to experience the rise and fall of phenomena as oppressive. This is called nibida in pali, which means strong disenchantment with everything that arises and passes away. And yes a comparison is made (I think in the visuddhimagga) with catching a snake in a fishing net, thinking it`s a fish at first but suddenly discovering it`s a snake. One let`s go of it immediately.
             
            In the same way, when one discovers that our khandas are so rapidly dying each moment, one is struck with disenchantment. Without that kind of disenchantment, it is not possible to let go of the tanha and clinging to the khandas and realiza Nibbana.
             
            When I began in Buddhism I used to think that the khandas were neither pleasant nor suffering in themselves, but that suffering came when you add tanha and clining to them. Even some known modern Buddhist teachers see it that way.
            However, I came to understand through Theravada Buddhism (from suttas and also masters such as Mahasi Sayadawe and Mogok Sayadaw) that actually, the khandas are considered pure dukkha whether you cling to them or not. For example, the body of an Arahant can still experience serious diseases.
             
            The khandas are viewed as being created by that very tanha in the first place, so they are not `neutral`. The tanha and clinging to them adds to the suffering and creates the conditions for the arising of future khandas. So khandas are a result of delusion and craving.
             
            The difference for an Arahant, fully liberated from tanha and attachment, is that he or she has equanimity toward the khandas, despite still viewing them as pure dukkha. In fact, his attainment showed him the true nature of the khandas as nothing but dukkha. Another difference with the arahant is that he or she knows "the escape" (i.e. Nibbana) from the khandas.
             
            For the four snakes analogy, one of Mogok Sayadaw`s disciples (I think Aung San Sayadaw), has talked about this, saying that for all of us, it is one of the four elements that will kill us at the end of our life. For example, a stroke is, if I remember well, a case of the wind element killing us.
             
            The four elements are rarely, if ever, in perfect balance. When in good balance, bodily health is the result. But perfect health is never the case. There`s always some discomforts in the body. Put yourself in the most comfortable position you can imagine, and keep that position. I garantee you that the comfort will soon be gone. We move most of the time because of discomfort in the body. The body is, indeed, uncomfortable by nature, whether there is tanha or not. The four elements are bound to separate, with death as result.
             
            The khandas are a self-destruction machine. It is delusion that makes us believe that well-being is possible in those khandas.
             
            That the khandas are dukkha may seem depressing. But when you truly contemplate this, it can give rise to great peace in realizing we can stop our stressful struggle to find happiness in the khandas.
             
            metta,
             
            Benoit


             


            SN.IV.174 says to consider:
            the four elements (matter, of our bodies) as snakes,
            the khandha (ourselves, persons) as murderers,
            and the objects of the senses (the world) as a gang of thieves.

            What’s frightful here?

            Those things themselves? Isn't that standard Theravada?

            Or that any of those have the potential to lead us into tanha, grasping at
            them, upadana, clinging attachment? I go with that, and take it as a good
            reading of the suttas (and hopefully Theravada as well).

            metta, stephen




            --
            Warm regards & Much metta



            May all beings be happy.

            Dhammavani Team


            +91 805 3278591

            www.dhammavani.org
          • Benoit Santerre
            Thanks for the compliment Thanks and credit goes to all Dhamma teachers from whom I have learned.   When something can be read without effort, great effort
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 6, 2013
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              Thanks for the compliment
              Thanks and credit goes to all Dhamma teachers from whom I have learned.

               
              When something can be read without effort, great effort has gone into its writing. Enrique Jardiel Poncela
              Above is so apt about the following writing.

              On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Benoit Santerre <benoit_santerre@...> wrote:
               
              In a high stage in vipassana meditation is described a moment when one sees the extremely rapid, moment-to-moment, dissolution of mind and body. One comes to experience the rise and fall of phenomena as oppressive. This is called nibida in pali, which means strong disenchantment with everything that arises and passes away. And yes a comparison is made (I think in the visuddhimagga) with catching a snake in a fishing net, thinking it`s a fish at first but suddenly discovering it`s a snake. One let`s go of it immediately.
               
              In the same way, when one discovers that our khandas are so rapidly dying each moment, one is struck with disenchantment. Without that kind of disenchantment, it is not possible to let go of the tanha and clinging to the khandas and realiza Nibbana.
               
              When I began in Buddhism I used to think that the khandas were neither pleasant nor suffering in themselves, but that suffering came when you add tanha and clining to them. Even some known modern Buddhist teachers see it that way.
              However, I came to understand through Theravada Buddhism (from suttas and also masters such as Mahasi Sayadawe and Mogok Sayadaw) that actually, the khandas are considered pure dukkha whether you cling to them or not. For example, the body of an Arahant can still experience serious diseases.
               
              The khandas are viewed as being created by that very tanha in the first place, so they are not `neutral`. The tanha and clinging to them adds to the suffering and creates the conditions for the arising of future khandas. So khandas are a result of delusion and craving.
               
              The difference for an Arahant, fully liberated from tanha and attachment, is that he or she has equanimity toward the khandas, despite still viewing them as pure dukkha. In fact, his attainment showed him the true nature of the khandas as nothing but dukkha. Another difference with the arahant is that he or she knows "the escape" (i.e. Nibbana) from the khandas.
               
              For the four snakes analogy, one of Mogok Sayadaw`s disciples (I think Aung San Sayadaw), has talked about this, saying that for all of us, it is one of the four elements that will kill us at the end of our life. For example, a stroke is, if I remember well, a case of the wind element killing us.
               
              The four elements are rarely, if ever, in perfect balance. When in good balance, bodily health is the result. But perfect health is never the case. There`s always some discomforts in the body. Put yourself in the most comfortable position you can imagine, and keep that position. I garantee you that the comfort will soon be gone. We move most of the time because of discomfort in the body. The body is, indeed, uncomfortable by nature, whether there is tanha or not. The four elements are bound to separate, with death as result.
               
              The khandas are a self-destruction machine. It is delusion that makes us believe that well-being is possible in those khandas.
               
              That the khandas are dukkha may seem depressing. But when you truly contemplate this, it can give rise to great peace in realizing we can stop our stressful struggle to find happiness in the khandas.
               
              metta,
               
              Benoit


               


              SN.IV.174 says to consider:
              the four elements (matter, of our bodies) as snakes,
              the khandha (ourselves, persons) as murderers,
              and the objects of the senses (the world) as a gang of thieves.

              What’s frightful here?

              Those things themselves? Isn't that standard Theravada?

              Or that any of those have the potential to lead us into tanha, grasping at
              them, upadana, clinging attachment? I go with that, and take it as a good
              reading of the suttas (and hopefully Theravada as well).

              metta, stephen




              --
              Warm regards & Much metta



              May all beings be happy.

              Dhammavani Team


              +91 805 3278591

              www.dhammavani.org
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