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Theme indexes for folk song collections

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  • jimdonohoe2004
    The last time I attended a TSF meeting in London, Steve Roud was talking about adding motifs to his folk song index. I have been struggling with adding a
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 8, 2004
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      The last time I attended a TSF meeting in London, Steve Roud was
      talking about adding "motifs" to his folk song index.

      I have been struggling with adding a Theme index to my song text
      database and here are some of my thoughts on the matter.

      There are two Folk Motif indexes that have been produced for Folk
      Tales, written if my memory serves me correctly, by Stith & Aarnson,
      and by Thompson.

      Both catalogue the appearance of rare devices such as golden combs
      and flying boats. This is useful in it's way but must be rejected as
      the basis of producing a meaningful grouping of tales or songs. Any
      index must group its items in a way that is easy to understand and to
      remember if it is to be useful.

      Historically, books of folk songs that group their songs tend to
      group them into broad categories, then they further group the story
      songs into subgroups based on various types of situation that occur
      in them.

      Because songs in books only appear in one order, the indexer must
      decide which group and sub-group a song is to be placed into where
      there are competing claims.

      This kind of organisation gives us some idea of what is needed if we
      wish to set up a General Theme Index for Folk Songs.

      We need to look at the following things:

      O Context of traditional performance
      O Category / Setting
      O Situation
      O Action / Transition
      O Device / Tool for transition

      Of these, I find Devices (as partly catalogued in the two Folk Motif
      indexes) are the least useful, and Situations are the most useful in
      creating memorable subgroups, followed by Actions / Transitions as
      the second most useful.

      Situations and Actions/Transitions may be actual (past or present) or
      potential (future wished for or dreaded). Examples of potential
      Actions/Transitions and Situations occur, for example, in both "Ye
      Rambling Boys of Pleasure" and in "Bushes and Briars".

      There are lots of themed indexes used in folk song books out there.
      The following is the current state of my thematic index to my song
      text database. As it's in plain-text transmitted by Yahoo, you may
      find that individual lines have been broken into 2 or more lines - if
      you have to stitch them back together, apologies for this.

      I would welcome discussion on theme indexes and on my index in
      particular.

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Theme Title Topic Sub
      Topic
      0 Unassigned zzz Not
      yet assigned to a theme
      1 As I Roved Out Love
      Pastourelles
      2 Courting is a Pleasure Love Songs
      of Lovers Courting
      3 Locks and Bolts Do Hinder Love Songs
      of Familial Opposition
      4 Farewell My Darling Love Songs
      of Lovers Parting
      5 Lead and I Will Follow Love Songs
      of Lovers Sought or Accompanied
      6 Fhir a Bhata Love Songs
      of Absent and Awaited Lovers
      7 Come Write Me Down Love The
      True Love Test
      8 Come to the Bower Love Songs
      of Weddings
      9 I Wish I Was Single Again Love Songs
      of Troubled Marriage
      10 Seven Yellow Gypsies Love Songs
      of Enticement and Adultery
      11 There is an Alehouse in the Town Love Songs
      of Abandoned or Hopeless Lovers
      12 Our Captain's Name Was Ned Love Songs
      of Broken Hearted Lovers
      13 The Cocks Are Crowing Love Songs
      of Night Visiting
      14 The Flower of Sweet Strabane Love Songs
      Praising a Loved One
      19 I Wrote My Love a Letter Love
      Floating Verses, Love in General
      20 The Farmer is the Man Work Songs
      of the Agricultural Trade
      21 I'm Getting Old and Feeble Work Songs
      of the Aged
      22 Hear the Whistle Blow a Hundred Miles Work Songs
      of Ramblers
      23 Wait Till the Work Comes Round Work Songs
      of Hard Times
      24 The Miner's Lifeguard Work Songs
      of Miners
      25 Buy Broom Buzoms Work Songs
      of Trades
      26 The Grey Funnel Line Work Songs
      of Life at Sea and Jack on Shore
      27 Jenny Keep Your Ringtail Warm Work
      Sailor's Work Songs
      28 Three Score and Ten Work Songs
      of Sea Wreck and Drownings
      29 Sailing Over the Dogger Bank Work Songs
      of the Fishermen
      30 Rolling Down to Old Maui Work Songs
      of the Whalers and Sealers
      31 The Flying Cloud Work Songs
      of Piracy and Slavery
      40 Twa Recruiting Sergeants Wars Songs
      of Recruitment, Press Gangs and Deserters
      41 Henry Martin Wars Songs
      of Sea Battles
      42 Through Smoke and Fire Wars Songs
      of War on Land
      43 The Bonny Bunch of Roses Wars Songs
      of Napoleon and other famous Warriors
      44 Farewell to Sicily Wars Songs
      of Soldiers and Army Life
      45 The Croppy Boy Wars Songs
      of Patriotism, Politics and other
      46 Down by the Glenside Wars
      Aislings and Allegorical Songs
      47 Goodbye Mick and Goodbye Pat Wars Songs
      of Emigration
      48 On the Road to Mandalay Wars Songs
      of Foreign Adventures
      50 I Am a Happy Fellow Comic Songs
      of the Simple and Not-So-Simple
      51 The Mountains of Mourne Comic Songs
      of Gentle Humour
      52 The Wheels of the World Comic Songs
      of Bitter Wit
      53 Courting in the Kitchen Comic Light
      and Humorous Songs
      54 Let's All Go Mad Comic
      Ridiculous and Nonsensical Songs
      70 Sweet William's Ghost various Songs
      of the Supernatural and of Wonder
      71 Bible Stories various Songs
      of Religion
      72 Apples to Sing, Nuts to Crack various
      Seasonal, Festive and Ritual Songs
      73 The Echo Mocks the Corncrake various Songs
      of Rural Joy
      74 Come All My Companions various Songs
      of Good and Bad Company
      75 Nancy Whisky various Songs
      about Drink and Drinking, Food and Eating
      76 Pop Your Nose in a Jug of This various Songs
      For & Against Inebriation & Other Addictions
      77 The Horn of the Hunter various
      Hunting, Angling and Poaching Songs
      78 The Men of North Loo various Songs
      of Sport and of Wagers
      79 Omagh Town various Songs
      of Locality
      80 The Lark in the Clear Air various Songs
      of Hope and Expectation
      81 Down Where the Drunkards Roll various Songs
      of Pathos and Regret
      82 Lost Jimmy Whelan various Songs
      of Loss, Grief and Disaster
      83 No Irish Need Apply various Songs
      of Pride and Prejudice
      86 Dick o' the Cow various Songs
      of Theft, Trickery and Raiding
      87 I Wish There was No Prisons various Songs
      of Felons, Outlaws and Transportation
      88 A Last Goodnight various Songs
      of Murder and Abominable Deeds
      89 Norton New Bell Wakes various Songs
      Celebrating the New
      90 Marra to Bonney various Songs
      of Strife
      91 Sleep My Child various
      Lullabies
      92 One Man Went to Mow various
      Cumulative, Progressive and Catalogue songs
      999 Other various No
      strong theme
      99999 … and for completeness zzz
      Unclassified for various reasons
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------

      Best regards, Jim.
    • Martin Graebe
      Jim I was planning to append your note to the TSF newsletter but, unfortunately, the formatting is detroyed somewhere between your e-mail and mine. If you can
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 7, 2005
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        Jim

        I was planning to append your note to the TSF newsletter but, unfortunately, the formatting is detroyed somewhere between your e-mail and mine. If you can send it as a word document (the table, at least, I can report on your work

        Martin


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: jimdonohoe2004
        To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 2:38 PM
        Subject: [Tradsong] Theme indexes for folk song collections



        The last time I attended a TSF meeting in London, Steve Roud was
        talking about adding "motifs" to his folk song index.

        I have been struggling with adding a Theme index to my song text
        database and here are some of my thoughts on the matter.

        There are two Folk Motif indexes that have been produced for Folk
        Tales, written if my memory serves me correctly, by Stith & Aarnson,
        and by Thompson.

        Both catalogue the appearance of rare devices such as golden combs
        and flying boats. This is useful in it's way but must be rejected as
        the basis of producing a meaningful grouping of tales or songs. Any
        index must group its items in a way that is easy to understand and to
        remember if it is to be useful.

        Historically, books of folk songs that group their songs tend to
        group them into broad categories, then they further group the story
        songs into subgroups based on various types of situation that occur
        in them.

        Because songs in books only appear in one order, the indexer must
        decide which group and sub-group a song is to be placed into where
        there are competing claims.

        This kind of organisation gives us some idea of what is needed if we
        wish to set up a General Theme Index for Folk Songs.

        We need to look at the following things:

        O Context of traditional performance
        O Category / Setting
        O Situation
        O Action / Transition
        O Device / Tool for transition

        Of these, I find Devices (as partly catalogued in the two Folk Motif
        indexes) are the least useful, and Situations are the most useful in
        creating memorable subgroups, followed by Actions / Transitions as
        the second most useful.

        Situations and Actions/Transitions may be actual (past or present) or
        potential (future wished for or dreaded). Examples of potential
        Actions/Transitions and Situations occur, for example, in both "Ye
        Rambling Boys of Pleasure" and in "Bushes and Briars".

        There are lots of themed indexes used in folk song books out there.
        The following is the current state of my thematic index to my song
        text database. As it's in plain-text transmitted by Yahoo, you may
        find that individual lines have been broken into 2 or more lines - if
        you have to stitch them back together, apologies for this.

        I would welcome discussion on theme indexes and on my index in
        particular.

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        Theme Title Topic Sub
        Topic
        0 Unassigned zzz Not
        yet assigned to a theme
        1 As I Roved Out Love
        Pastourelles
        2 Courting is a Pleasure Love Songs
        of Lovers Courting
        3 Locks and Bolts Do Hinder Love Songs
        of Familial Opposition
        4 Farewell My Darling Love Songs
        of Lovers Parting
        5 Lead and I Will Follow Love Songs
        of Lovers Sought or Accompanied
        6 Fhir a Bhata Love Songs
        of Absent and Awaited Lovers
        7 Come Write Me Down Love The
        True Love Test
        8 Come to the Bower Love Songs
        of Weddings
        9 I Wish I Was Single Again Love Songs
        of Troubled Marriage
        10 Seven Yellow Gypsies Love Songs
        of Enticement and Adultery
        11 There is an Alehouse in the Town Love Songs
        of Abandoned or Hopeless Lovers
        12 Our Captain's Name Was Ned Love Songs
        of Broken Hearted Lovers
        13 The Cocks Are Crowing Love Songs
        of Night Visiting
        14 The Flower of Sweet Strabane Love Songs
        Praising a Loved One
        19 I Wrote My Love a Letter Love
        Floating Verses, Love in General
        20 The Farmer is the Man Work Songs
        of the Agricultural Trade
        21 I'm Getting Old and Feeble Work Songs
        of the Aged
        22 Hear the Whistle Blow a Hundred Miles Work Songs
        of Ramblers
        23 Wait Till the Work Comes Round Work Songs
        of Hard Times
        24 The Miner's Lifeguard Work Songs
        of Miners
        25 Buy Broom Buzoms Work Songs
        of Trades
        26 The Grey Funnel Line Work Songs
        of Life at Sea and Jack on Shore
        27 Jenny Keep Your Ringtail Warm Work
        Sailor's Work Songs
        28 Three Score and Ten Work Songs
        of Sea Wreck and Drownings
        29 Sailing Over the Dogger Bank Work Songs
        of the Fishermen
        30 Rolling Down to Old Maui Work Songs
        of the Whalers and Sealers
        31 The Flying Cloud Work Songs
        of Piracy and Slavery
        40 Twa Recruiting Sergeants Wars Songs
        of Recruitment, Press Gangs and Deserters
        41 Henry Martin Wars Songs
        of Sea Battles
        42 Through Smoke and Fire Wars Songs
        of War on Land
        43 The Bonny Bunch of Roses Wars Songs
        of Napoleon and other famous Warriors
        44 Farewell to Sicily Wars Songs
        of Soldiers and Army Life
        45 The Croppy Boy Wars Songs
        of Patriotism, Politics and other
        46 Down by the Glenside Wars
        Aislings and Allegorical Songs
        47 Goodbye Mick and Goodbye Pat Wars Songs
        of Emigration
        48 On the Road to Mandalay Wars Songs
        of Foreign Adventures
        50 I Am a Happy Fellow Comic Songs
        of the Simple and Not-So-Simple
        51 The Mountains of Mourne Comic Songs
        of Gentle Humour
        52 The Wheels of the World Comic Songs
        of Bitter Wit
        53 Courting in the Kitchen Comic Light
        and Humorous Songs
        54 Let's All Go Mad Comic
        Ridiculous and Nonsensical Songs
        70 Sweet William's Ghost various Songs
        of the Supernatural and of Wonder
        71 Bible Stories various Songs
        of Religion
        72 Apples to Sing, Nuts to Crack various
        Seasonal, Festive and Ritual Songs
        73 The Echo Mocks the Corncrake various Songs
        of Rural Joy
        74 Come All My Companions various Songs
        of Good and Bad Company
        75 Nancy Whisky various Songs
        about Drink and Drinking, Food and Eating
        76 Pop Your Nose in a Jug of This various Songs
        For & Against Inebriation & Other Addictions
        77 The Horn of the Hunter various
        Hunting, Angling and Poaching Songs
        78 The Men of North Loo various Songs
        of Sport and of Wagers
        79 Omagh Town various Songs
        of Locality
        80 The Lark in the Clear Air various Songs
        of Hope and Expectation
        81 Down Where the Drunkards Roll various Songs
        of Pathos and Regret
        82 Lost Jimmy Whelan various Songs
        of Loss, Grief and Disaster
        83 No Irish Need Apply various Songs
        of Pride and Prejudice
        86 Dick o' the Cow various Songs
        of Theft, Trickery and Raiding
        87 I Wish There was No Prisons various Songs
        of Felons, Outlaws and Transportation
        88 A Last Goodnight various Songs
        of Murder and Abominable Deeds
        89 Norton New Bell Wakes various Songs
        Celebrating the New
        90 Marra to Bonney various Songs
        of Strife
        91 Sleep My Child various
        Lullabies
        92 One Man Went to Mow various
        Cumulative, Progressive and Catalogue songs
        999 Other various No
        strong theme
        99999 . and for completeness zzz
        Unclassified for various reasons
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------

        Best regards, Jim.






        The Traditional Song Forum
        http://www.tradsong.freeserve.co.uk/

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      • jmoul81075@aol.com
        This is partly, if not largely, to reinvent the wheel - a great deal of work was done by a conference on the matter some several years ago and DK Wilgus
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 8, 2005
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          This is partly, if not largely, to reinvent the wheel - a great deal of work was done by a conference on the matter some several years ago and DK Wilgus published a fair bit on it. I'm away from home so I've not access to precise records but if I'm asked will post references asap.

          John Moulden
        • stephen_r1937
          ... How does he do it? I can t imagine where he finds the time and energy to compile the indexes to begin with, and now to add motifs . . . . But it s a great
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 10, 2005
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            --- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "jimdonohoe2004" <j.donohoe@s...> wrote:
            >
            > The last time I attended a TSF meeting in London, Steve Roud was
            > talking about adding "motifs" to his folk song index.

            How does he do it? I can't imagine where he finds the time and energy
            to compile the indexes to begin with, and now to add motifs . . . .

            But it's a great idea. As they stand, the Roud indexes do not have
            (and could not reasonably be expected to have) a classificatory
            function such as the ballad indexes of Malcolm Laws (with their
            restricted scope) provide. Adding searchable motifs would go a long
            way to increase the already great usefulness of the Roud indexes by
            enabling us to search for songs with similar plots or employing the
            same motif(s). They would put us even deeper in debt to Steve.

            >
            > I have been struggling with adding a Theme index to my song text
            > database and here are some of my thoughts on the matter.
            >
            > There are two Folk Motif indexes that have been produced for Folk
            > Tales, written if my memory serves me correctly, by Stith & Aarnson,
            > and by Thompson.

            I think what you have in mine are the Type Index of folktales by Ante
            Aarne and Stith Thompson, and the Motif Index by Stith Thompson. The
            former classifies and indexes tales as such, the latter analyzes the
            tales into motifs and classifies and catalogues the motifs.

            These works were products of the geographical-historical school AKA
            'Finnish School' the flourished in the early 20th cent. and later took
            its lumps from structuralists and others--see Heda Jason, 'The Russian
            Criticism of the "Finnish School" in Folktale Scholarship', _Norveg_
            14 (1970): 285-294, and were then entirely obscured by the emphasis on
            context, performance, and thick corpus. In the last years we have seen
            some good song histories, Renwick's _Rebalancing_, and other signs of
            a revival of earlier interests and questions, and may hope to enjoy
            the best of both worlds in the future.

            >
            > Both catalogue the appearance of rare devices such as golden combs
            > and flying boats. This is useful in it's way but must be rejected as
            > the basis of producing a meaningful grouping of tales or songs. Any
            > index must group its items in a way that is easy to understand and to
            > remember if it is to be useful.

            That is the function of the Type Index, which, while related to the
            Motif Index, is a different animal.

            >
            > Historically, books of folk songs that group their songs tend to
            > group them into broad categories, then they further group the story
            > songs into subgroups based on various types of situation that occur
            > in them.
            >
            > Because songs in books only appear in one order, the indexer must
            > decide which group and sub-group a song is to be placed into where
            > there are competing claims.
            >
            > This kind of organisation gives us some idea of what is needed if we
            > wish to set up a General Theme Index for Folk Songs.
            >
            > We need to look at the following things:
            >
            > O Context of traditional performance
            > O Category / Setting
            > O Situation
            > O Action / Transition
            > O Device / Tool for transition
            >
            > Of these, I find Devices (as partly catalogued in the two Folk Motif
            > indexes) are the least useful, and Situations are the most useful in
            > creating memorable subgroups, followed by Actions / Transitions as
            > the second most useful.
            >
            I like your approach; but let's ask John Moulden to provide the
            references he mentioned and see what has been done.

            Some kinds of oral literature are easier to classify than others. Folk
            lyric is not easily classified. Legends do not fit into the
            Aarne-Thompson framework; there are at least two proposals for a
            typology of legends, and I don't believe any has found general
            acceptance.

            Then there is the other half of folk song--we also need an index of
            the tunes. The Hungarians have provided the model, which could be
            adapted--but it would be no small task. I am not satisfied with
            Wilgus's "Anglo-American" or Renwick's "Anglo/American" categories,
            because my own investigations have persuaded me that any global
            approach that does not include the Irish (and Scottish and Welsh)
            songs with text in English (Scots included) will be woefully
            deficient. The category must be 'English-Language' folksong. This is
            daunting, because the rest of us will never have even a significant
            fraction of the knowledge of the Irish material of such experts as
            John Moulden or Hugh Shields; for any major project we must have
            international teams, and for our lesser investigations we must do the
            best we can and await correction from those more qualified.
            _Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship since 1898_ is due for an update
            anyhow, and needs to be expanded to include the English-language
            repertory that is neither Anglo nor American, for otherwise we will
            not do justice even to the Anglo-American material properly so
            called--how can we discuss 'Pretty Saro' without considering 'The
            Streams of Bunclody'? And the same for any index of the airs.

            This sort of comprehensive scope is one of the great virtues of the
            Roud indexes, which set high standards that we now must strive to meet.

            Back to the index sample below: this list is a good place to discuss
            the issue of classification, but let's wait until we see the
            references mentioned by John Moulden.

            Stephen

            > Situations and Actions/Transitions may be actual (past or present) or
            > potential (future wished for or dreaded). Examples of potential
            > Actions/Transitions and Situations occur, for example, in both "Ye
            > Rambling Boys of Pleasure" and in "Bushes and Briars".
            >
            > There are lots of themed indexes used in folk song books out there.
            > The following is the current state of my thematic index to my song
            > text database. As it's in plain-text transmitted by Yahoo, you may
            > find that individual lines have been broken into 2 or more lines - if
            > you have to stitch them back together, apologies for this.
            >
            > I would welcome discussion on theme indexes and on my index in
            > particular.
            >
            > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Theme Title Topic Sub
            > Topic
            > 0 Unassigned zzz Not
            > yet assigned to a theme
            > 1 As I Roved Out Love
            > Pastourelles
            > 2 Courting is a Pleasure Love Songs
            > of Lovers Courting
            > 3 Locks and Bolts Do Hinder Love Songs
            > of Familial Opposition
            > 4 Farewell My Darling Love Songs
            > of Lovers Parting
            > 5 Lead and I Will Follow Love Songs
            > of Lovers Sought or Accompanied
            > 6 Fhir a Bhata Love Songs
            > of Absent and Awaited Lovers
            > 7 Come Write Me Down Love The
            > True Love Test
            > 8 Come to the Bower Love Songs
            > of Weddings
            > 9 I Wish I Was Single Again Love Songs
            > of Troubled Marriage
            > 10 Seven Yellow Gypsies Love Songs
            > of Enticement and Adultery
            > 11 There is an Alehouse in the Town Love Songs
            > of Abandoned or Hopeless Lovers
            > 12 Our Captain's Name Was Ned Love Songs
            > of Broken Hearted Lovers
            > 13 The Cocks Are Crowing Love Songs
            > of Night Visiting
            > 14 The Flower of Sweet Strabane Love Songs
            > Praising a Loved One
            > 19 I Wrote My Love a Letter Love
            > Floating Verses, Love in General
            > 20 The Farmer is the Man Work Songs
            > of the Agricultural Trade
            > 21 I'm Getting Old and Feeble Work Songs
            > of the Aged
            > 22 Hear the Whistle Blow a Hundred Miles Work Songs
            > of Ramblers
            > 23 Wait Till the Work Comes Round Work Songs
            > of Hard Times
            > 24 The Miner's Lifeguard Work Songs
            > of Miners
            > 25 Buy Broom Buzoms Work Songs
            > of Trades
            > 26 The Grey Funnel Line Work Songs
            > of Life at Sea and Jack on Shore
            > 27 Jenny Keep Your Ringtail Warm Work
            > Sailor's Work Songs
            > 28 Three Score and Ten Work Songs
            > of Sea Wreck and Drownings
            > 29 Sailing Over the Dogger Bank Work Songs
            > of the Fishermen
            > 30 Rolling Down to Old Maui Work Songs
            > of the Whalers and Sealers
            > 31 The Flying Cloud Work Songs
            > of Piracy and Slavery
            > 40 Twa Recruiting Sergeants Wars Songs
            > of Recruitment, Press Gangs and Deserters
            > 41 Henry Martin Wars Songs
            > of Sea Battles
            > 42 Through Smoke and Fire Wars Songs
            > of War on Land
            > 43 The Bonny Bunch of Roses Wars Songs
            > of Napoleon and other famous Warriors
            > 44 Farewell to Sicily Wars Songs
            > of Soldiers and Army Life
            > 45 The Croppy Boy Wars Songs
            > of Patriotism, Politics and other
            > 46 Down by the Glenside Wars
            > Aislings and Allegorical Songs
            > 47 Goodbye Mick and Goodbye Pat Wars Songs
            > of Emigration
            > 48 On the Road to Mandalay Wars Songs
            > of Foreign Adventures
            > 50 I Am a Happy Fellow Comic Songs
            > of the Simple and Not-So-Simple
            > 51 The Mountains of Mourne Comic Songs
            > of Gentle Humour
            > 52 The Wheels of the World Comic Songs
            > of Bitter Wit
            > 53 Courting in the Kitchen Comic Light
            > and Humorous Songs
            > 54 Let's All Go Mad Comic
            > Ridiculous and Nonsensical Songs
            > 70 Sweet William's Ghost various Songs
            > of the Supernatural and of Wonder
            > 71 Bible Stories various Songs
            > of Religion
            > 72 Apples to Sing, Nuts to Crack various
            > Seasonal, Festive and Ritual Songs
            > 73 The Echo Mocks the Corncrake various Songs
            > of Rural Joy
            > 74 Come All My Companions various Songs
            > of Good and Bad Company
            > 75 Nancy Whisky various Songs
            > about Drink and Drinking, Food and Eating
            > 76 Pop Your Nose in a Jug of This various Songs
            > For & Against Inebriation & Other Addictions
            > 77 The Horn of the Hunter various
            > Hunting, Angling and Poaching Songs
            > 78 The Men of North Loo various Songs
            > of Sport and of Wagers
            > 79 Omagh Town various Songs
            > of Locality
            > 80 The Lark in the Clear Air various Songs
            > of Hope and Expectation
            > 81 Down Where the Drunkards Roll various Songs
            > of Pathos and Regret
            > 82 Lost Jimmy Whelan various Songs
            > of Loss, Grief and Disaster
            > 83 No Irish Need Apply various Songs
            > of Pride and Prejudice
            > 86 Dick o' the Cow various Songs
            > of Theft, Trickery and Raiding
            > 87 I Wish There was No Prisons various Songs
            > of Felons, Outlaws and Transportation
            > 88 A Last Goodnight various Songs
            > of Murder and Abominable Deeds
            > 89 Norton New Bell Wakes various Songs
            > Celebrating the New
            > 90 Marra to Bonney various Songs
            > of Strife
            > 91 Sleep My Child various
            > Lullabies
            > 92 One Man Went to Mow various
            > Cumulative, Progressive and Catalogue songs
            > 999 Other various No
            > strong theme
            > 99999 … and for completeness zzz
            > Unclassified for various reasons
            > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
          • georgina@nomasters.co.uk
            I know obscure European volumes are difficult to get hold of, but as has already been suggested, we are in danger of spending a lot of time and energy
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 10, 2005
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              I know obscure European volumes are difficult to get hold of, but as has
              already been suggested, we are in danger of spending a lot of time and
              energy re-inventing the wheel on theme indexes.
              Eleanor R Long contributed a paper 'Ballad classification and the 'narrative
              theme' concept. Together with a thematic index to Anglo-Irish-American
              Balladry,' to the Proceedings of the Fifteenth International Conference of
              the of the Kommission fur Volksdichtung of the Societe Internationale
              d'Ethnologie et de Folklore held in Dublin in 1984. This, coupled with D K
              Wilgus' own paper, 'The catalogue of Irish traditional ballads in English'
              at the same conference did a lot of the job that we're now apparently trying
              to re-start. The Dublin Ballad Conference was a truly great event, not just
              for these but for a range of other papers. Long and Wilgus proposals may
              not have been perfect, but they were based on a considerable depth of
              knowledge. We stand on giants shoulders, let's not miss the chance to
              benefit from their work.
              Georgina Boyes

              -----Original Message-----
              From: stephen_r1937 [mailto:stephen.r@...]
              Sent: 10 February 2005 18:35
              To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Tradsong] Re: Theme indexes for folk song collections




              --- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "jimdonohoe2004" <j.donohoe@s...> wrote:
              >
              > The last time I attended a TSF meeting in London, Steve Roud was
              > talking about adding "motifs" to his folk song index.

              How does he do it? I can't imagine where he finds the time and energy
              to compile the indexes to begin with, and now to add motifs . . . .

              But it's a great idea. As they stand, the Roud indexes do not have
              (and could not reasonably be expected to have) a classificatory
              function such as the ballad indexes of Malcolm Laws (with their
              restricted scope) provide. Adding searchable motifs would go a long
              way to increase the already great usefulness of the Roud indexes by
              enabling us to search for songs with similar plots or employing the
              same motif(s). They would put us even deeper in debt to Steve.

              >
              > I have been struggling with adding a Theme index to my song text
              > database and here are some of my thoughts on the matter.
              >
              > There are two Folk Motif indexes that have been produced for Folk
              > Tales, written if my memory serves me correctly, by Stith & Aarnson,
              > and by Thompson.

              I think what you have in mine are the Type Index of folktales by Ante
              Aarne and Stith Thompson, and the Motif Index by Stith Thompson. The
              former classifies and indexes tales as such, the latter analyzes the
              tales into motifs and classifies and catalogues the motifs.

              These works were products of the geographical-historical school AKA
              'Finnish School' the flourished in the early 20th cent. and later took
              its lumps from structuralists and others--see Heda Jason, 'The Russian
              Criticism of the "Finnish School" in Folktale Scholarship', _Norveg_
              14 (1970): 285-294, and were then entirely obscured by the emphasis on
              context, performance, and thick corpus. In the last years we have seen
              some good song histories, Renwick's _Rebalancing_, and other signs of
              a revival of earlier interests and questions, and may hope to enjoy
              the best of both worlds in the future.

              >
              > Both catalogue the appearance of rare devices such as golden combs
              > and flying boats. This is useful in it's way but must be rejected as
              > the basis of producing a meaningful grouping of tales or songs. Any
              > index must group its items in a way that is easy to understand and to
              > remember if it is to be useful.

              That is the function of the Type Index, which, while related to the
              Motif Index, is a different animal.

              >
              > Historically, books of folk songs that group their songs tend to
              > group them into broad categories, then they further group the story
              > songs into subgroups based on various types of situation that occur
              > in them.
              >
              > Because songs in books only appear in one order, the indexer must
              > decide which group and sub-group a song is to be placed into where
              > there are competing claims.
              >
              > This kind of organisation gives us some idea of what is needed if we
              > wish to set up a General Theme Index for Folk Songs.
              >
              > We need to look at the following things:
              >
              > O Context of traditional performance
              > O Category / Setting
              > O Situation
              > O Action / Transition
              > O Device / Tool for transition
              >
              > Of these, I find Devices (as partly catalogued in the two Folk Motif
              > indexes) are the least useful, and Situations are the most useful in
              > creating memorable subgroups, followed by Actions / Transitions as
              > the second most useful.
              >
              I like your approach; but let's ask John Moulden to provide the
              references he mentioned and see what has been done.

              Some kinds of oral literature are easier to classify than others. Folk
              lyric is not easily classified. Legends do not fit into the
              Aarne-Thompson framework; there are at least two proposals for a
              typology of legends, and I don't believe any has found general
              acceptance.

              Then there is the other half of folk song--we also need an index of
              the tunes. The Hungarians have provided the model, which could be
              adapted--but it would be no small task. I am not satisfied with
              Wilgus's "Anglo-American" or Renwick's "Anglo/American" categories,
              because my own investigations have persuaded me that any global
              approach that does not include the Irish (and Scottish and Welsh)
              songs with text in English (Scots included) will be woefully
              deficient. The category must be 'English-Language' folksong. This is
              daunting, because the rest of us will never have even a significant
              fraction of the knowledge of the Irish material of such experts as
              John Moulden or Hugh Shields; for any major project we must have
              international teams, and for our lesser investigations we must do the
              best we can and await correction from those more qualified.
              _Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship since 1898_ is due for an update
              anyhow, and needs to be expanded to include the English-language
              repertory that is neither Anglo nor American, for otherwise we will
              not do justice even to the Anglo-American material properly so
              called--how can we discuss 'Pretty Saro' without considering 'The
              Streams of Bunclody'? And the same for any index of the airs.

              This sort of comprehensive scope is one of the great virtues of the
              Roud indexes, which set high standards that we now must strive to meet.

              Back to the index sample below: this list is a good place to discuss
              the issue of classification, but let's wait until we see the
              references mentioned by John Moulden.

              Stephen

              > Situations and Actions/Transitions may be actual (past or present) or
              > potential (future wished for or dreaded). Examples of potential
              > Actions/Transitions and Situations occur, for example, in both "Ye
              > Rambling Boys of Pleasure" and in "Bushes and Briars".
              >
              > There are lots of themed indexes used in folk song books out there.
              > The following is the current state of my thematic index to my song
              > text database. As it's in plain-text transmitted by Yahoo, you may
              > find that individual lines have been broken into 2 or more lines - if
              > you have to stitch them back together, apologies for this.
              >
              > I would welcome discussion on theme indexes and on my index in
              > particular.
              >
              > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Theme Title Topic Sub
              > Topic
              > 0 Unassigned zzz Not
              > yet assigned to a theme
              > 1 As I Roved Out Love
              > Pastourelles
              > 2 Courting is a Pleasure Love Songs
              > of Lovers Courting
              > 3 Locks and Bolts Do Hinder Love Songs
              > of Familial Opposition
              > 4 Farewell My Darling Love Songs
              > of Lovers Parting
              > 5 Lead and I Will Follow Love Songs
              > of Lovers Sought or Accompanied
              > 6 Fhir a Bhata Love Songs
              > of Absent and Awaited Lovers
              > 7 Come Write Me Down Love The
              > True Love Test
              > 8 Come to the Bower Love Songs
              > of Weddings
              > 9 I Wish I Was Single Again Love Songs
              > of Troubled Marriage
              > 10 Seven Yellow Gypsies Love Songs
              > of Enticement and Adultery
              > 11 There is an Alehouse in the Town Love Songs
              > of Abandoned or Hopeless Lovers
              > 12 Our Captain's Name Was Ned Love Songs
              > of Broken Hearted Lovers
              > 13 The Cocks Are Crowing Love Songs
              > of Night Visiting
              > 14 The Flower of Sweet Strabane Love Songs
              > Praising a Loved One
              > 19 I Wrote My Love a Letter Love
              > Floating Verses, Love in General
              > 20 The Farmer is the Man Work Songs
              > of the Agricultural Trade
              > 21 I'm Getting Old and Feeble Work Songs
              > of the Aged
              > 22 Hear the Whistle Blow a Hundred Miles Work Songs
              > of Ramblers
              > 23 Wait Till the Work Comes Round Work Songs
              > of Hard Times
              > 24 The Miner's Lifeguard Work Songs
              > of Miners
              > 25 Buy Broom Buzoms Work Songs
              > of Trades
              > 26 The Grey Funnel Line Work Songs
              > of Life at Sea and Jack on Shore
              > 27 Jenny Keep Your Ringtail Warm Work
              > Sailor's Work Songs
              > 28 Three Score and Ten Work Songs
              > of Sea Wreck and Drownings
              > 29 Sailing Over the Dogger Bank Work Songs
              > of the Fishermen
              > 30 Rolling Down to Old Maui Work Songs
              > of the Whalers and Sealers
              > 31 The Flying Cloud Work Songs
              > of Piracy and Slavery
              > 40 Twa Recruiting Sergeants Wars Songs
              > of Recruitment, Press Gangs and Deserters
              > 41 Henry Martin Wars Songs
              > of Sea Battles
              > 42 Through Smoke and Fire Wars Songs
              > of War on Land
              > 43 The Bonny Bunch of Roses Wars Songs
              > of Napoleon and other famous Warriors
              > 44 Farewell to Sicily Wars Songs
              > of Soldiers and Army Life
              > 45 The Croppy Boy Wars Songs
              > of Patriotism, Politics and other
              > 46 Down by the Glenside Wars
              > Aislings and Allegorical Songs
              > 47 Goodbye Mick and Goodbye Pat Wars Songs
              > of Emigration
              > 48 On the Road to Mandalay Wars Songs
              > of Foreign Adventures
              > 50 I Am a Happy Fellow Comic Songs
              > of the Simple and Not-So-Simple
              > 51 The Mountains of Mourne Comic Songs
              > of Gentle Humour
              > 52 The Wheels of the World Comic Songs
              > of Bitter Wit
              > 53 Courting in the Kitchen Comic Light
              > and Humorous Songs
              > 54 Let's All Go Mad Comic
              > Ridiculous and Nonsensical Songs
              > 70 Sweet William's Ghost various Songs
              > of the Supernatural and of Wonder
              > 71 Bible Stories various Songs
              > of Religion
              > 72 Apples to Sing, Nuts to Crack various
              > Seasonal, Festive and Ritual Songs
              > 73 The Echo Mocks the Corncrake various Songs
              > of Rural Joy
              > 74 Come All My Companions various Songs
              > of Good and Bad Company
              > 75 Nancy Whisky various Songs
              > about Drink and Drinking, Food and Eating
              > 76 Pop Your Nose in a Jug of This various Songs
              > For & Against Inebriation & Other Addictions
              > 77 The Horn of the Hunter various
              > Hunting, Angling and Poaching Songs
              > 78 The Men of North Loo various Songs
              > of Sport and of Wagers
              > 79 Omagh Town various Songs
              > of Locality
              > 80 The Lark in the Clear Air various Songs
              > of Hope and Expectation
              > 81 Down Where the Drunkards Roll various Songs
              > of Pathos and Regret
              > 82 Lost Jimmy Whelan various Songs
              > of Loss, Grief and Disaster
              > 83 No Irish Need Apply various Songs
              > of Pride and Prejudice
              > 86 Dick o' the Cow various Songs
              > of Theft, Trickery and Raiding
              > 87 I Wish There was No Prisons various Songs
              > of Felons, Outlaws and Transportation
              > 88 A Last Goodnight various Songs
              > of Murder and Abominable Deeds
              > 89 Norton New Bell Wakes various Songs
              > Celebrating the New
              > 90 Marra to Bonney various Songs
              > of Strife
              > 91 Sleep My Child various
              > Lullabies
              > 92 One Man Went to Mow various
              > Cumulative, Progressive and Catalogue songs
              > 999 Other various No
              > strong theme
              > 99999 … and for completeness zzz
              > Unclassified for various reasons
              > ---------------------------------------------------------------------







              The Traditional Song Forum
              http://www.tradsong.freeserve.co.uk/

              "How can I keep from Singing?"
              Yahoo! Groups Links









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            • jmoul81075@aol.com
              Thanks to Georgina for giving the details which I, being away from home, could not supply. I think though there may be another paper, reissued by the John
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 12, 2005
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                Thanks to Georgina for giving the details which I, being away from home, could not supply. I think though there may be another paper, reissued by the John Edwards Foundation that has not been mentioned - I'll look soon.

                John Moulden
              • jmoul81075@aol.com
                The most readily available works discussing this topic are the two below. The first is reported to have been in print in late 2003 - inquiries to
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 14, 2005
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                  The most readily available works discussing this topic are the two below. The
                  first is reported to have been in print in late 2003 - inquiries to
                  sales@.... The first also gives a fairly comprehensive reference to previous
                  discussion and articles on the subject.

                  The Freiburg Conference I mentioned was detailed by Georgina Boyes. The
                  article I mentioned by Wilgus is "A type-index of Anglo-American traditional
                  narrative songs" Journal of the Folklore Institute VII (1970) 161-176. My copy is
                  accompanied by a spirit duplicated copy of the headings used in this
                  classification scheme for the broad category "Interpersonal events" but I can't put my
                  hand on either for some strange reason. However, it follows the same headings as
                  the appendix to Roy Palmer's article below.

                  Wilgus 1985
                  D.K. Wilgus. "The Catalogue of Irish Traditional Ballads in English." In
                  Ballad Research: The Stranger in Ballad Narrative and Other Topics. Proceedings of
                  the Fifteenth International Conference of the Kommission für Volksdichtung of
                  the Sociéte Internationale d'Ethnologie et de Folclore. Ed. Hugh Shields.
                  Dublin: Folk Music Society of Ireland. pp. 21-33.
                  Describes the background and format of the forthcoming Catalogue of Irish
                  Traditional Ballads in English, providing examples from ballads on "Love
                  Relations" and "Irish History."


                  David Atkinson's Bibliography on the EFDSS web-site contains this:
                  Palmer, Roy. ‘A. L. Lloyd and Industrial Song’. Singer, Song and Scholar.
                  Ed. Ian Russell. Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1986: 133-144. of which
                  David says,
                  A critical appreciation of A. L. Lloyd’s work in the study of industrial folk
                  song. The ‘classification system for ballads of social event’, which
                  categorises songs about societal rather than interpersonal conflict, included as an
                  appendix to this article and attributed to Lloyd, is in fact the work of the
                  American scholar D. K. Wilgus (FMJ 5 [1987]: 361); though seemingly very
                  promising as a scheme of classification it does not appear to have been taken any
                  further.

                  It's worth pointing out that Wilgus' use of the term "Anglo-American" in the
                  1970 article was overtaken by a more general approach (which HAD to include
                  Ireland or he'd have been lynched - another pretty custom that arguably
                  originated in Ireland) by 1985.

                  John Moulden









                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • stephen_r1937
                  ... ... American in the ... include ... arguably ... Now we need to get Roger Renwick to Ireland for a similar symposium . . . . Stephen
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 14, 2005
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                    --- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, jmoul81075@a... wrote:
                    > the appendix to Roy Palmer's article below.
                    <snip>
                    >
                    > It's worth pointing out that Wilgus' use of the term "Anglo-
                    American" in the
                    > 1970 article was overtaken by a more general approach (which HAD to
                    include
                    > Ireland or he'd have been lynched - another pretty custom that
                    arguably
                    > originated in Ireland) by 1985.
                    >
                    Now we need to get Roger Renwick to Ireland for a similar
                    symposium . . . .

                    Stephen
                    >
                  • DONOHOE, JIM
                    Dear Martin, I ve attached copies of the Theme table in .doc and .htm formats. Best regards, Jim. ________________________________ From: Martin Graebe
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 28, 2005
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                      Dear Martin,

                      I've attached copies of the Theme table in .doc and .htm formats.

                      Best regards, Jim.

                      ________________________________

                      From: Martin Graebe [mailto:martin.graebe@...]
                      Sent: Mon 07/02/2005 21:30
                      To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Tradsong] Theme indexes for folk song collections


                      Jim

                      I was planning to append your note to the TSF newsletter but, unfortunately, the formatting is detroyed somewhere between your e-mail and mine. If you can send it as a word document (the table, at least, I can report on your work

                      Martin





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • DONOHOE, JIM
                      John, Yes please. Jim. ________________________________ From: jmoul81075@aol.com [mailto:jmoul81075@aol.com] Sent: Tue 08/02/2005 12:46 To:
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 28, 2005
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                        John,

                        Yes please.

                        Jim.

                        ________________________________

                        From: jmoul81075@... [mailto:jmoul81075@...]
                        Sent: Tue 08/02/2005 12:46
                        To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Tradsong] Theme indexes for folk song collections


                        This is partly, if not largely, to reinvent the wheel - a great deal of work was done by a conference on the matter some several years ago and DK Wilgus published a fair bit on it. I'm away from home so I've not access to precise records but if I'm asked will post references asap.

                        John Moulden


                        The Traditional Song Forum
                        http://www.tradsong.freeserve.co.uk/

                        "How can I keep from Singing?"



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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John Adams
                        If you send attachments via the group, they become de-tachments because that s the way the group is set up for anti-virus reasons. Send attachments direct to
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 28, 2005
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                          If you send attachments via the group, they become de-tachments
                          because that's the way the group is set up for anti-virus reasons.

                          Send attachments direct to the recipient or if you want everybody to
                          access them, put them in the group folder at....

                          http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Tradsong/files/

                          Access requires the user to register with Yahoo - any difficulties
                          can be referred to me and I'll assist.

                          Johnny Adams - List owner


                          >Dear Martin,
                          >
                          >I've attached copies of the Theme table in .doc and .htm formats.
                          >
                          >Best regards, Jim.
                          >
                          >________________________________
                          >
                          >From: Martin Graebe [mailto:martin.graebe@...]
                          >Sent: Mon 07/02/2005 21:30
                          >To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [Tradsong] Theme indexes for folk song collections
                          >
                          >
                          >Jim
                          >
                          >I was planning to append your note to the TSF newsletter but,
                          >unfortunately, the formatting is detroyed somewhere between your
                          >e-mail and mine. If you can send it as a word document (the table,
                          >at least, I can report on your work
                          >
                          >Martin
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >

                          --
                          John Adams
                          Programme Leader - BSc(Hons) Professional Broadcast Techniques
                          School of Media, Music & Performance
                          University of Salford
                          Adelphi, Peru St.
                          Salford, Manchester, M3 6EQ
                          0161 295 6057

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Cliff Abrams
                          I received a complete catalog listing of over 1000 sean nos songs recorded by Micheal o Conghaile s company, CIC. It is a Word document and seems to move
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 28, 2005
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                            I received a complete catalog listing of over 1000
                            sean nos songs recorded by Micheal o Conghaile's
                            company, CIC. It is a Word document and seems to move
                            across platforms with formatting intact. Songs are
                            listed alphabetically, and the appropriate album
                            number is tabbed.

                            You may request it from Micheal (mocic@...),
                            or i will send the attachment to anyone who requests
                            it.

                            C.
                          • Topp-Fargion, Janet
                            Could you please forward the document to me? Thanks Janet Dr Janet Topp Fargion Curator, World & Traditional Music Section British Library Sound Archive 96
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 28, 2005
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                              Could you please forward the document to me?

                              Thanks

                              Janet

                              Dr Janet Topp Fargion
                              Curator, World & Traditional Music Section
                              British Library Sound Archive
                              96 Euston Road
                              London NW1 2DB
                              tel: 020 7412 7427
                              fax: 020 7412 7441
                              email: janet.topp-fargion@...
                              website: http://www.bl.uk/soundarchive
                              catalogue: http://cadensa.bl.uk


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Cliff Abrams [mailto:cliffabrams@...]
                              Sent: 28 February 2005 13:35
                              To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [Tradsong] Sean nos Catalog


                              I received a complete catalog listing of over 1000
                              sean nos songs recorded by Micheal o Conghaile's
                              company, CIC. It is a Word document and seems to move
                              across platforms with formatting intact. Songs are
                              listed alphabetically, and the appropriate album
                              number is tabbed.

                              You may request it from Micheal (mocic@...),
                              or i will send the attachment to anyone who requests
                              it.

                              C.



                              The Traditional Song Forum
                              http://www.tradsong.freeserve.co.uk/

                              "How can I keep from Singing?"
                              Yahoo! Groups Links









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                            • donohoejim
                              Georgina and John, Thanks for the information. I picked up copies of the Long and Wilson papers from the British Library. Does anyone know what has happened to
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 21, 2005
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                                Georgina and John,

                                Thanks for the information. I picked up copies of the Long and Wilson
                                papers from the British Library.

                                Does anyone know what has happened to the Catalogue of Irish
                                Traditional Ballad in the 21 years since the paper was published?

                                It seems to me that if it online and we could get permission to link
                                into it, it would quite adequately fulfill most or all of the aims of
                                our motif and theme indexing for those songs it covered. I'm not sure
                                about the Dewey Decimal style of assigning numbers to particular
                                ballads.

                                Is D.K. Wilson still alive? Would he be prepared to talk to us or
                                correspond with us about his experiences with this catalogue?

                                If the catalogue isn't on-line, could we get permission to put it on-
                                line as a companion-piece to the Roud Index?

                                This brings me to the Roud Index itself. I visited it last night and
                                noticed that the results were generated by the Google search engine.

                                How does this work? Could we include links to web-pages or to cgi-
                                scripts into the results. This would allow us a great deal of freedom
                                in how we created the notes for each index entry, reference, song
                                variant, song, thematic unit, source or whatever.

                                Who's looking after the techie side of the index - could they talk to
                                all about what is possible?

                                It might be a good idea to create a new newsgroup tradsongtech to go
                                along with tradsong so that technical talk could be kept seperate.
                                Membership of tradsongtech should go along automatically with
                                tradsong, but people should be reminded to change the membership
                                option on the tradsongtech to not send emails. Incidentally, this is
                                what I've done with the tradsong group itself, as I don't like having
                                to search through a clutter of emails to work out what is going on in
                                the group.

                                It would be nice to be able to link from the source field of a record
                                for a RIx entry to a list of all the entries from that source and to
                                a web page giving the mission statement for the contributing
                                organisation, together with details of how to contribute to it,
                                together with a link to the organisation's home page.



                                --- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, <georgina@n...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I know obscure European volumes are difficult to get hold of, but
                                as has
                                > already been suggested, we are in danger of spending a lot of time
                                and
                                > energy re-inventing the wheel on theme indexes.
                                > Eleanor R Long contributed a paper 'Ballad classification and
                                the 'narrative
                                > theme' concept. Together with a thematic index to Anglo-Irish-
                                American
                                > Balladry,' to the Proceedings of the Fifteenth International
                                Conference of
                                > the of the Kommission fur Volksdichtung of the Societe
                                Internationale
                                > d'Ethnologie et de Folklore held in Dublin in 1984. This, coupled
                                with D K
                                > Wilgus' own paper, 'The catalogue of Irish traditional ballads in
                                English'
                                > at the same conference did a lot of the job that we're now
                                apparently trying
                                > to re-start. The Dublin Ballad Conference was a truly great event,
                                not just
                                > for these but for a range of other papers. Long and Wilgus
                                proposals may
                                > not have been perfect, but they were based on a considerable depth
                                of
                                > knowledge. We stand on giants shoulders, let's not miss the chance
                                to
                                > benefit from their work.
                                > Georgina Boyes

                                >...
                              • donohoejim
                                Oops, message interruptus ... I had to dash of to a class. Looking back at the discussion on the SISG, it appears that what is on the VWML site is not the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 21, 2005
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                                  Oops, message interruptus ... I had to dash of to a class.

                                  Looking back at the discussion on the SISG, it appears that what is on
                                  the VWML site is not the basis of the song index, but a collection of
                                  references that the Song Index will be able to plug into.

                                  Have any firm or tentative conclusions (or even proposals for
                                  consideration) been made, on what will appear in the Song Index, on
                                  what hooks and mechanisms we will have to search the Song Index, or
                                  how all the information we would like to be able to stuff into it will
                                  fit together?

                                  I may be spinning my wheels here, but I would like to see the
                                  information as a series of glosses (an old word but an accurate one)
                                  all tied together with hyperlinks. Imagine Child with all the
                                  references as hyperlinks, and each term used having a definition
                                  reachable by hyperlink.

                                  Best regards, Jim.

                                  --- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, <georgina@n...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I know obscure European volumes are difficult to get hold of, but as has
                                  > already been suggested, ...
                                • Richard Butterworth
                                  ... Assuming we re talking about library.efdss.org that d be me. The current state of play is that after a lot of me messing about and taking a lot longer than
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 22, 2005
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                                    >Who's looking after the techie side of the index - could they talk to
                                    >all about what is possible?

                                    Assuming we're talking about library.efdss.org that'd be me. The
                                    current state of play is that after a lot of me messing about and
                                    taking a lot longer than I'd planned, a prototype Vaughan Williams
                                    Memorial Library site is now up and working here:
                                    <http://library.efdss.org>. Currently the site holds an *old* copy of
                                    the Roud index, and several indexes to song collectors' manuscript
                                    indexes. At the moment all the indexes on there are just test data
                                    while I test the site to make sure everything works. There is a
                                    problem with speed, particularly with the Roud index, but I'm fixing
                                    that at the moment.

                                    Once the few remaining problems are sorted out, we'll update all the
                                    information on the site, then pubicly launch it. The site isn't
                                    powered by Google, the Google logo is a link to a search on the
                                    Google site for that particular song title.

                                    As for what's possible: anything is possible. The problem being
                                    funding. We'd like to get photos of the singers from the Sharp
                                    collection online, but there isn't infinite server space, and EFDSS
                                    are strapped for cash as it is.

                                    My plan is to complete the work on the current site in the next
                                    month, then prepare a list of things we'd like to do with the site to
                                    improve it, rank them according to priority with Malcolm and other
                                    interested parties and then I'll continue doing small improvements in
                                    my spare time, and we'll look for funding for the big improvements.


                                    Richard
                                  • jmoul81075@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 21/11/2005 18:07:14 GMT Standard Time, donohoejim@yahoo.co.uk writes: I picked up copies of the Long and Wilson papers from the British
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 22, 2005
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                                      In a message dated 21/11/2005 18:07:14 GMT Standard Time,
                                      donohoejim@... writes:

                                      I picked up copies of the Long and Wilson
                                      papers from the British Library.



                                      Wilson should be Wilgus - DK Wilgus died in 1989. Eleanor Long-Wilgus, his
                                      widow died earlier this year.

                                      John Moulden


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • donohoejim
                                      John, Do you know if D.K. Wilgus ever completed his catalogue, and if it was published? Is a copy available? Could you ask around for me please. Nicholas might
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 24, 2005
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                                        John,

                                        Do you know if D.K. Wilgus ever completed his catalogue, and if it was
                                        published? Is a copy available?

                                        Could you ask around for me please. Nicholas might know, but I've no
                                        email address for him.

                                        Thanks, Jim.

                                        --- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, jmoul81075@a... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Wilson should be Wilgus - DK Wilgus died in 1989. Eleanor
                                        Long-Wilgus, his
                                        > widow died earlier this year.
                                        >
                                        > John Moulden
                                      • Steve Gardham
                                        Jim, For any American published stuff you d be better off asking on the Indiana Ballad List website. This is just as esay to join as the TSF list and most of
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 25, 2005
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                                          Jim,
                                          For any American published stuff you'd be better off asking on the Indiana
                                          Ballad List website. This is just as esay to join as the TSF list and most
                                          of us are members.

                                          SteveG


                                          >From: "donohoejim" <donohoejim@...>
                                          >Reply-To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
                                          >To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Subject: [Tradsong] Re: Theme indexes for folk song collections
                                          >Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 02:01:21 -0000
                                          >
                                          >John,
                                          >
                                          >Do you know if D.K. Wilgus ever completed his catalogue, and if it was
                                          >published? Is a copy available?
                                          >
                                          >Could you ask around for me please. Nicholas might know, but I've no
                                          >email address for him.
                                          >
                                          >Thanks, Jim.
                                          >
                                          >--- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, jmoul81075@a... wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Wilson should be Wilgus - DK Wilgus died in 1989. Eleanor
                                          >Long-Wilgus, his
                                          > > widow died earlier this year.
                                          > >
                                          > > John Moulden
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

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                                        • donohoejim
                                          Steve, OK. I ll have a bash at it. Looking at the article, there s no indication as to where the work was being done. I had assumed that the catalogue was of a
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 26, 2005
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                                            Steve,

                                            OK. I'll have a bash at it.

                                            Looking at the article, there's no indication as to where the work was
                                            being done. I had assumed that the catalogue was of a real collection
                                            held in Ireland, but maybe not.

                                            --- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Gardham" <gardhams@h...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Jim,
                                            > For any American published stuff you'd be better off asking on the
                                            Indiana
                                            > Ballad List website. This is just as esay to join as the TSF list
                                            and most
                                            > of us are members.
                                            >
                                            > SteveG
                                          • jmoul81075@aol.com
                                            In a message dated 25/11/2005 02:02:00 GMT Standard Time, donohoejim@yahoo.co.uk writes: Do you know if D.K. Wilgus ever completed his catalogue, and if it
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Nov 26, 2005
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                                              In a message dated 25/11/2005 02:02:00 GMT Standard Time,
                                              donohoejim@... writes:

                                              Do you know if D.K. Wilgus ever completed his catalogue, and if it was
                                              published? Is a copy available?

                                              Could you ask around for me please. Nicholas might know, but I've no
                                              email address for him.


                                              The Wilgus collections are housed at the Southern Folklore Collection at the
                                              University of North Carolina at the Wilson Library Chapel Hill - whatever
                                              there is is there. I have a duplicated list for "interpersonal events" and an
                                              article which, from memory, was from Western Folklore and was, I think,
                                              reprinted by the John Edwards Foundation. I'll look all this up and give accurate
                                              information and references.

                                              John Moulden


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