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Re: [TrackChasers] Oxford kart track

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  • colin herridge
    Will, What is the difference between a champ kart and a caged kart,besides the name, and how will anybody be able to tell what they are or might see ? Colin
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 17, 2010
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      Will,
      What is the difference between a champ kart and a caged kart,besides the name, and how will anybody be able to tell what they are or might see ?
      Colin

      --- On Fri, 17/9/10, Will White <trackchaser@...> wrote:

      From: Will White <trackchaser@...>
      Subject: [TrackChasers] Oxford kart track
      To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, 17 September, 2010, 18:15

      I do not recognize flat kart classes as countable on the TrackChaser web
      site. In the state of Maine, all go karts race with cages on them. Flat
      karts are not considered a countable class, simply because they have a
      cage on them. Oxford Plains used to have champ karts in their Friday
      night inner oval series, as recently as 2009. However, I see no evidence
      that they ran anything countable on the inner oval this year. In fact, I
      had originally planned to go to Maine this summer and after checking the
      Oxford Plains site, I noticed the track was not countable this year.
      Randy Lewis visited the track last month and counted it, apparently
      based solely on seeing the regular flat kart classes race. I am not
      recognizing this track on his track list.

      Will





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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Will White
      Colin, When champ karts first started, it was easy to tell the difference between a champ kart and a caged kart. A caged kart was simply a flat kart with a
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 20, 2010
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        Colin,

        When champ karts first started, it was easy to tell the difference
        between a champ kart and a caged kart. A caged kart was simply a flat
        kart with a cage on it. The driver of a champ kart did not lay in the
        kart, but sat upright. They still do use a 5-point safety harness, which
        is a good way to tell the difference even today. The champ karts also
        originally resembled a small midget in that they had a full tail and hood.

        After a few years, I guess they didn't like the fact that champ karts
        were considerably slower and less agile than flat karts, so they
        gradually changed them to be more like a flat kart. Most of them only
        have a small, low hood, usually no tail, they lay lower and so does the
        driver, although they still can be distinguished by the safety harness.

        It gets more complicated because, as in all racing, various names are
        used for the classes at different tracks. It shouldn't be a problem if
        they are called champ karts. Occasionally a track may just call them
        cage karts and actually have champ karts, in which case they'd of course
        still be countable. Other tracks may have flat karts with cages and call
        them cage karts. Those are not countable. So you can't always rely on
        the class name.

        So for now, if you can't tell by the name, the best ways to tell if it's
        a countable champ kart would be the full safety harness and a higher
        hood, rather than the low, round plexiglass piece that often goes around
        the rider's feet on a flat kart.

        Because of the fact that the original champ kart has been slowly
        changing back to more of a flat kart with a cage, I've felt for a number
        of years now that they should no longer be countable. I was just never
        sure what was the best way to make the change. However, lately I've been
        thinking I may just declare that as of a certain date (perhaps
        01/01/11), all champ karts are no longer countable. If this decision is
        made, it would only effect champ karts and not the other forms of
        kart-based race vehicles.

        Will




        On 9/17/2010 8:16 PM, colin herridge wrote:
        > Will, What is the difference between a champ kart and a caged
        > kart,besides the name, and how will anybody be able to tell what they
        > are or might see ? Colin
        >
        > --- On Fri, 17/9/10, Will White<trackchaser@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: Will White<trackchaser@...> Subject: [TrackChasers]
        > Oxford kart track To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 17
        > September, 2010, 18:15
        >
        > I do not recognize flat kart classes as countable on the TrackChaser
        > web site. In the state of Maine, all go karts race with cages on
        > them. Flat karts are not considered a countable class, simply because
        > they have a cage on them. Oxford Plains used to have champ karts in
        > their Friday night inner oval series, as recently as 2009. However, I
        > see no evidence that they ran anything countable on the inner oval
        > this year. In fact, I had originally planned to go to Maine this
        > summer and after checking the Oxford Plains site, I noticed the track
        > was not countable this year. Randy Lewis visited the track last month
        > and counted it, apparently based solely on seeing the regular flat
        > kart classes race. I am not recognizing this track on his track
        > list.
      • RTRYFBAR@AOL.COM
        Colin: If you look at the picture on the home page of the Penn s Creek, PA webpage, there is a good picture that shows flat karts with a cage:
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 20, 2010
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          Colin:

          If you look at the picture on the home page of the Penn's Creek, PA webpage, there is a good picture that shows flat karts with a cage:

          http://www.pennscreekracewaypark.com/

          If you look at the picture on the home page of the Young Guns Champ Kart Series webpage, there is a good picture that shows all Champ Karts:

          http://www.younggunsseries.com/

          ************************

          Will:

          My feeling is that there should be no changes to the current rule:

          To eliminate a class of car would discourage new people from being involved as their opportunities would be more limited than those already in the group. As we lose some of the current TrackChasers from participation, we should do what we can to try to get new people involved. It also gets confusing when a certain type of car counted before a specific point in time and then the same class of car no longer counts after that specific point in time. All classes evolve over time.

          For those that like to participate in TrackChasing as a competition, it would limit their chances to add tracks that others have already been to.

          It seems most people have accepted the Champ Kart rule as it currently is. In fact, the largest group of TrackChasers I have seen at any one track this year was at Cridersville, OH where Champ Karts were the only TrackChaser class. Colin didn't say anything against the current rule, he just asked for clarification on how to tell the difference between the countable Champ Kart and the uncountable flat kart with a cage.

          With one or two exceptions, everyone seems to be satisified with the rule currently in place. They either go to see Champ Karts race, or they choose not too. A lot do. It works OK for almost everyone.

          Champ Karts are specifically listed in the written TrackChaser rules as a countable type of little car. Also, according to the written TrackChaser rules, to change that would require a vote of all eligible voters. This rule change goes beyond the scope of a gray area ruling that you have been entrusted to make without a majority of the group agreeing.

          *******************************

          If the main issue here is that people have a hard time telling the difference between a Champ Kart and a non countable flat kart with a cage, let me offer another alternative. Instead of taking away a class that would limit the future track opportunities of new and current group members, we could consider changing the rule to allow all caged karts to count. It could even include any track visit that anyone made in good-faith this year. This option would end the confusion, without either taking away existing opportunities or going completely the other way and allowing all adult go kart racing to count. As a rule change and not a ruling, this would also require a vote as per our rules.

          Guy Smith









          -----Original Message-----
          From: Will White <trackchaser@...>
          To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, Sep 20, 2010 1:39 pm
          Subject: Re: [TrackChasers] Oxford kart track


          Colin,

          When champ karts first started, it was easy to tell the difference
          between a champ kart and a caged kart. A caged kart was simply a flat
          kart with a cage on it. The driver of a champ kart did not lay in the
          kart, but sat upright. They still do use a 5-point safety harness, which
          is a good way to tell the difference even today. The champ karts also
          originally resembled a small midget in that they had a full tail and hood.

          After a few years, I guess they didn't like the fact that champ karts
          were considerably slower and less agile than flat karts, so they
          gradually changed them to be more like a flat kart. Most of them only
          have a small, low hood, usually no tail, they lay lower and so does the
          driver, although they still can be distinguished by the safety harness.

          It gets more complicated because, as in all racing, various names are
          used for the classes at different tracks. It shouldn't be a problem if
          they are called champ karts. Occasionally a track may just call them
          cage karts and actually have champ karts, in which case they'd of course
          still be countable. Other tracks may have flat karts with cages and call
          them cage karts. Those are not countable. So you can't always rely on
          the class name.

          So for now, if you can't tell by the name, the best ways to tell if it's
          a countable champ kart would be the full safety harness and a higher
          hood, rather than the low, round plexiglass piece that often goes around
          the rider's feet on a flat kart.

          Because of the fact that the original champ kart has been slowly
          changing back to more of a flat kart with a cage, I've felt for a number
          of years now that they should no longer be countable. I was just never
          sure what was the best way to make the change. However, lately I've been
          thinking I may just declare that as of a certain date (perhaps
          01/01/11), all champ karts are no longer countable. If this decision is
          made, it would only effect champ karts and not the other forms of
          kart-based race vehicles.

          Will




          On 9/17/2010 8:16 PM, colin herridge wrote:
          > Will, What is the difference between a champ kart and a caged
          > kart,besides the name, and how will anybody be able to tell what they
          > are or might see ? Colin
          >
          > --- On Fri, 17/9/10, Will White<trackchaser@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: Will White<trackchaser@...> Subject: [TrackChasers]
          > Oxford kart track To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 17
          > September, 2010, 18:15
          >
          > I do not recognize flat kart classes as countable on the TrackChaser
          > web site. In the state of Maine, all go karts race with cages on
          > them. Flat karts are not considered a countable class, simply because
          > they have a cage on them. Oxford Plains used to have champ karts in
          > their Friday night inner oval series, as recently as 2009. However, I
          > see no evidence that they ran anything countable on the inner oval
          > this year. In fact, I had originally planned to go to Maine this
          > summer and after checking the Oxford Plains site, I noticed the track
          > was not countable this year. Randy Lewis visited the track last month
          > and counted it, apparently based solely on seeing the regular flat
          > kart classes race. I am not recognizing this track on his track
          > list.


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • colin herridge
          Will,      I can appreciate the problem here but i think that by defining a class by which type of safety harness is used could cause problems,what if a
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 21, 2010
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            Will,
                 I can appreciate the problem here but i think that by defining a class by which type of safety harness is used could cause problems,what if a track or sanctioning body allowed 4 point harness's to be allowed as well,would the rules have to be changed again.

            Guy,
            although i agree with you that all flat karts should be allowed that would open a huge number of tracks around the world which i honestly think would again cause more upsets betweens 'groups' of trackchasers.

            Colin

            --- On Mon, 20/9/10, Will White <trackchaser@...> wrote:

            From: Will White <trackchaser@...>
            Subject: Re: [TrackChasers] Oxford kart track
            To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, 20 September, 2010, 18:39

            Colin,

            When champ karts first started, it was easy to tell the difference
            between a champ kart and a caged kart. A caged kart was simply a flat
            kart with a cage on it. The driver of a champ kart did not lay in the
            kart, but sat upright. They still do use a 5-point safety harness, which
            is a good way to tell the difference even today. The champ karts also
            originally resembled a small midget in that they had a full tail and hood.

            After a few years, I guess they didn't like the fact that champ karts
            were considerably slower and less agile than flat karts, so they
            gradually changed them to be more like a flat kart. Most of them only
            have a small, low hood, usually no tail, they lay lower and so does the
            driver, although they still can be distinguished by the safety harness.

            It gets more complicated because, as in all racing, various names are
            used for the classes at different tracks. It shouldn't be a problem if
            they are called champ karts. Occasionally a track may just call them
            cage karts and actually have champ karts, in which case they'd of course
            still be countable. Other tracks may have flat karts with cages and call
            them cage karts. Those are not countable. So you can't always rely on
            the class name.

            So for now, if you can't tell by the name, the best ways to tell if it's
            a countable champ kart would be the full safety harness and a higher
            hood, rather than the low, round plexiglass piece that often goes around
            the rider's feet on a flat kart.

            Because of the fact that the original champ kart has been slowly
            changing back to more of a flat kart with a cage, I've felt for a number
            of years now that they should no longer be countable. I was just never
            sure what was the best way to make the change. However, lately I've been
            thinking I may just declare that as of a certain date (perhaps
            01/01/11), all champ karts are no longer countable. If this decision is
            made, it would only effect champ karts and not the other forms of
            kart-based race vehicles.

            Will




            On 9/17/2010 8:16 PM, colin herridge wrote:
            > Will, What is the difference between a champ kart and a caged
            > kart,besides the name, and how will anybody be able to tell what they
            > are or might see ? Colin
            >
            > --- On Fri, 17/9/10, Will White<trackchaser@...>  wrote:
            >
            > From: Will White<trackchaser@...> Subject: [TrackChasers]
            > Oxford kart track To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 17
            > September, 2010, 18:15
            >
            > I do not recognize flat kart classes as countable on the TrackChaser
            > web site. In the state of Maine, all go karts race with cages on
            > them. Flat karts are not considered a countable class, simply because
            > they have a cage on them. Oxford Plains used to have champ karts in
            > their Friday night inner oval series, as recently as 2009. However, I
            > see no evidence that they ran anything countable on the inner oval
            > this year. In fact, I had originally planned to go to Maine this
            > summer and after checking the Oxford Plains site, I noticed the track
            > was not countable this year. Randy Lewis visited the track last month
            > and counted it, apparently based solely on seeing the regular flat
            > kart classes race. I am not recognizing this track on his track
            > list.


            ------------------------------------

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Will White
            Guy, I disagree with almost all of your arguments for continuing to count a class that I feel has not been countable for over a decade. I am not talking about
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 21, 2010
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              Guy,

              I disagree with almost all of your arguments for continuing to count a
              class that I feel has not been countable for over a decade. I am not
              talking about a rule change, nor eliminating a countable class. I'm
              talking about making a ruling to not allow people to count a class that
              I feel is not countable.

              Will



              On 9/20/2010 2:27 PM, RTRYFBAR@... wrote:
              >
              > Colin:
              >
              > If you look at the picture on the home page of the Penn's Creek, PA
              > webpage, there is a good picture that shows flat karts with a cage:
              >
              > http://www.pennscreekracewaypark.com/
              >
              > If you look at the picture on the home page of the Young Guns Champ
              > Kart Series webpage, there is a good picture that shows all Champ
              > Karts:
              >
              > http://www.younggunsseries.com/
              >
              > ************************
              >
              > Will:
              >
              > My feeling is that there should be no changes to the current rule:
              >
              > To eliminate a class of car would discourage new people from being
              > involved as their opportunities would be more limited than those
              > already in the group. As we lose some of the current TrackChasers
              > from participation, we should do what we can to try to get new people
              > involved. It also gets confusing when a certain type of car counted
              > before a specific point in time and then the same class of car no
              > longer counts after that specific point in time. All classes evolve
              > over time.
              >
              > For those that like to participate in TrackChasing as a competition,
              > it would limit their chances to add tracks that others have already
              > been to.
              >
              > It seems most people have accepted the Champ Kart rule as it
              > currently is. In fact, the largest group of TrackChasers I have seen
              > at any one track this year was at Cridersville, OH where Champ Karts
              > were the only TrackChaser class. Colin didn't say anything against
              > the current rule, he just asked for clarification on how to tell the
              > difference between the countable Champ Kart and the uncountable flat
              > kart with a cage.
              >
              > With one or two exceptions, everyone seems to be satisified with the
              > rule currently in place. They either go to see Champ Karts race, or
              > they choose not too. A lot do. It works OK for almost everyone.
              >
              > Champ Karts are specifically listed in the written TrackChaser rules
              > as a countable type of little car. Also, according to the written
              > TrackChaser rules, to change that would require a vote of all
              > eligible voters. This rule change goes beyond the scope of a gray
              > area ruling that you have been entrusted to make without a majority
              > of the group agreeing.
              >
              > *******************************
              >
              > If the main issue here is that people have a hard time telling the
              > difference between a Champ Kart and a non countable flat kart with a
              > cage, let me offer another alternative. Instead of taking away a
              > class that would limit the future track opportunities of new and
              > current group members, we could consider changing the rule to allow
              > all caged karts to count. It could even include any track visit that
              > anyone made in good-faith this year. This option would end the
              > confusion, without either taking away existing opportunities or going
              > completely the other way and allowing all adult go kart racing to
              > count. As a rule change and not a ruling, this would also require a
              > vote as per our rules.
              >
              > Guy Smith
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message----- From: Will White<trackchaser@...>
              > To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Sep 20, 2010 1:39 pm
              > Subject: Re: [TrackChasers] Oxford kart track
              >
              >
              > Colin,
              >
              > When champ karts first started, it was easy to tell the difference
              > between a champ kart and a caged kart. A caged kart was simply a
              > flat kart with a cage on it. The driver of a champ kart did not lay
              > in the kart, but sat upright. They still do use a 5-point safety
              > harness, which is a good way to tell the difference even today. The
              > champ karts also originally resembled a small midget in that they had
              > a full tail and hood.
              >
              > After a few years, I guess they didn't like the fact that champ
              > karts were considerably slower and less agile than flat karts, so
              > they gradually changed them to be more like a flat kart. Most of them
              > only have a small, low hood, usually no tail, they lay lower and so
              > does the driver, although they still can be distinguished by the
              > safety harness.
              >
              > It gets more complicated because, as in all racing, various names
              > are used for the classes at different tracks. It shouldn't be a
              > problem if they are called champ karts. Occasionally a track may just
              > call them cage karts and actually have champ karts, in which case
              > they'd of course still be countable. Other tracks may have flat karts
              > with cages and call them cage karts. Those are not countable. So you
              > can't always rely on the class name.
              >
              > So for now, if you can't tell by the name, the best ways to tell if
              > it's a countable champ kart would be the full safety harness and a
              > higher hood, rather than the low, round plexiglass piece that often
              > goes around the rider's feet on a flat kart.
              >
              > Because of the fact that the original champ kart has been slowly
              > changing back to more of a flat kart with a cage, I've felt for a
              > number of years now that they should no longer be countable. I was
              > just never sure what was the best way to make the change. However,
              > lately I've been thinking I may just declare that as of a certain
              > date (perhaps 01/01/11), all champ karts are no longer countable. If
              > this decision is made, it would only effect champ karts and not the
              > other forms of kart-based race vehicles.
              >
              > Will
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On 9/17/2010 8:16 PM, colin herridge wrote:
              >> Will, What is the difference between a champ kart and a caged
              >> kart,besides the name, and how will anybody be able to tell what
              >> they are or might see ? Colin
              >>
              >> --- On Fri, 17/9/10, Will White<trackchaser@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> From: Will White<trackchaser@...> Subject: [TrackChasers]
              >> Oxford kart track To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday,
              >> 17 September, 2010, 18:15
              >>
              >> I do not recognize flat kart classes as countable on the
              >> TrackChaser web site. In the state of Maine, all go karts race with
              >> cages on them. Flat karts are not considered a countable class,
              >> simply because they have a cage on them. Oxford Plains used to have
              >> champ karts in their Friday night inner oval series, as recently as
              >> 2009. However, I see no evidence that they ran anything countable
              >> on the inner oval this year. In fact, I had originally planned to
              >> go to Maine this summer and after checking the Oxford Plains site,
              >> I noticed the track was not countable this year. Randy Lewis
              >> visited the track last month and counted it, apparently based
              >> solely on seeing the regular flat kart classes race. I am not
              >> recognizing this track on his track list.
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
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              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
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              >
              >
            • Will White
              Colin, I wasn t proposing we put anything about safety harnesses in the rules as a way to define a countable kart, I was just trying to answer your question of
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 21, 2010
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                Colin,

                I wasn't proposing we put anything about safety harnesses in the rules
                as a way to define a countable kart, I was just trying to answer your
                question of how do we tell the difference between a champ kart and a
                caged (flat) kart. There is so little difference nowadays that it's not
                easy to tell them apart. The champ kart has regressed almost to a flat
                kart, thus I feel they are not a countable class even though they go by
                the same name.

                Will



                On 9/21/2010 8:05 AM, colin herridge wrote:
                > Will, I can appreciate the problem here but i think that by defining
                > a class by which type of safety harness is used could cause
                > problems,what if a track or sanctioning body allowed 4 point
                > harness's to be allowed as well,would the rules have to be changed
                > again.
                >
                > Guy, although i agree with you that all flat karts should be allowed
                > that would open a huge number of tracks around the world which i
                > honestly think would again cause more upsets betweens 'groups' of
                > trackchasers.
                >
                > Colin
                >
                > --- On Mon, 20/9/10, Will White<trackchaser@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: Will White<trackchaser@...> Subject: Re: [TrackChasers]
                > Oxford kart track To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 20
                > September, 2010, 18:39
                >
                > Colin,
                >
                > When champ karts first started, it was easy to tell the difference
                > between a champ kart and a caged kart. A caged kart was simply a
                > flat kart with a cage on it. The driver of a champ kart did not lay
                > in the kart, but sat upright. They still do use a 5-point safety
                > harness, which is a good way to tell the difference even today. The
                > champ karts also originally resembled a small midget in that they had
                > a full tail and hood.
                >
                > After a few years, I guess they didn't like the fact that champ
                > karts were considerably slower and less agile than flat karts, so
                > they gradually changed them to be more like a flat kart. Most of them
                > only have a small, low hood, usually no tail, they lay lower and so
                > does the driver, although they still can be distinguished by the
                > safety harness.
                >
                > It gets more complicated because, as in all racing, various names
                > are used for the classes at different tracks. It shouldn't be a
                > problem if they are called champ karts. Occasionally a track may just
                > call them cage karts and actually have champ karts, in which case
                > they'd of course still be countable. Other tracks may have flat karts
                > with cages and call them cage karts. Those are not countable. So you
                > can't always rely on the class name.
                >
                > So for now, if you can't tell by the name, the best ways to tell if
                > it's a countable champ kart would be the full safety harness and a
                > higher hood, rather than the low, round plexiglass piece that often
                > goes around the rider's feet on a flat kart.
                >
                > Because of the fact that the original champ kart has been slowly
                > changing back to more of a flat kart with a cage, I've felt for a
                > number of years now that they should no longer be countable. I was
                > just never sure what was the best way to make the change. However,
                > lately I've been thinking I may just declare that as of a certain
                > date (perhaps 01/01/11), all champ karts are no longer countable. If
                > this decision is made, it would only effect champ karts and not the
                > other forms of kart-based race vehicles.
                >
                > Will
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On 9/17/2010 8:16 PM, colin herridge wrote:
                >> Will, What is the difference between a champ kart and a caged
                >> kart,besides the name, and how will anybody be able to tell what
                >> they are or might see ? Colin
                >>
                >> --- On Fri, 17/9/10, Will White<trackchaser@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> From: Will White<trackchaser@...> Subject: [TrackChasers]
                >> Oxford kart track To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday,
                >> 17 September, 2010, 18:15
                >>
                >> I do not recognize flat kart classes as countable on the
                >> TrackChaser web site. In the state of Maine, all go karts race with
                >> cages on them. Flat karts are not considered a countable class,
                >> simply because they have a cage on them. Oxford Plains used to have
                >> champ karts in their Friday night inner oval series, as recently as
                >> 2009. However, I see no evidence that they ran anything countable
                >> on the inner oval this year. In fact, I had originally planned to
                >> go to Maine this summer and after checking the Oxford Plains site,
                >> I noticed the track was not countable this year. Randy Lewis
                >> visited the track last month and counted it, apparently based
                >> solely on seeing the regular flat kart classes race. I am not
                >> recognizing this track on his track list.
                >
                >
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              • RTRYFBAR@AOL.COM
                Will: I gave my opinions on what was best for the group, they were not arguments. What is not either an opinion or argument is that the rule that is currently
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 21, 2010
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                  Will:

                  I gave my opinions on what was best for the group, they were not arguments.

                  What is not either an opinion or argument is that the rule that is currently in effect is that: "Little cars such as micro stocks, mini cup cars, champ karts and halfmidgets count but in general all other go-karts do not count." That is copied right from our rules on your site.

                  What is also not an opinion, is the only way to change the rule, also copied directly, is: "Amendments may be officially proposed at any time during the year, byany eligible voter, by mailing a ballot to all eligible voters, withthe following exception: only one proposed change may be actively onthe table at any given time. Eligible voters will be defined as anyTrackChaser meeting the following two criteria: 1) has attended racesat at least 400 different countable tracks; and 2) has submitted theircomplete track listing (complete at least through the end of theprevious year) to the group's designated statistician."

                  I have been a supporter of Will White, his role as Commissioner in making rulings, and both of his websites from the beginning. But when I designed the original set of rules that the original top ten voted on, it was so that those that were the most active participants in the hobby would be able to chart the direction it would go in. Not one person. That particular part of the rules has been modified since the beginning so that more people had a vote, not fewer. I believe it's intent is still the same. The original idea was to make rule changes somewhat complicated, so that there would be very few changes. That way old members could leave the group and new people could join the group and all would participate under the same guidelines.

                  This may be the perfect time to once again bring up the suggestion that we do away with all rules and all individual track lists that are collected in one location. That would take away all competitive aspects of TrackChasing. Will's website could be used for people finding the list of active tracks and the links to the track websites. This listserve could be used as a way to share new information found about tracks and races. Without the "3 R's to worry about (Rules, Rulings, and Rankings), maybe they would be more willing to share information they find, rather than revel in their "victory" when they are the only TrackChaser at a particular track. Everyone could keep their own track list, using whatever "rules" they would like. That would guarantee that any comparisons are invalid so there would be no valid competition.

                  A bit less radical would be to get rid of all rules and rankings, but still have a website that lists everyone's tracks for them, but they would be allowed to include whatever they wanted. Perhaps add another column to include what class of racing they saw race there so others would know.

                  An off the wall suggestion would be to only have one "group" listing of all the tracks where group members have seen racing.

                  I've been doing this since 1980, long before there were rules and rankings. The original track lists were published soley for everyone to see where everyone else had been. If we got rid of the 3 R's, maybe those that are always angry would go away (or enjoy it again and be friends) and we would return to being a group of pals with similar interests that enjoyed finding new tracks enjoyed telling each other about them, and enjoyed all getting together at the tracks. 3 R's or not, I'll keep doing what I have been because I love seeing new race tracks and I love photographing them, filming them, and writing about them to preserve their history. Whether it would be as part of a group or just with my wife would be something to think about.

                  If others want to get rid of rules, rulings, and rankings and everyone keep track of their own track lists in whatever way they would like, count my vote in as a yes on that.

                  Again, I gave my opinions on what was best for the group, they were not arguments. The fact that they were labeled as such are a good indication that it may be a good time to eliminate the 3 R's.

                  Guy Smith


                  Guy Smith








                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Will White <trackchaser@...>
                  To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:30 am
                  Subject: Re: [TrackChasers] Oxford kart track


                  Guy,

                  I disagree with almost all of your arguments for continuing to count a
                  class that I feel has not been countable for over a decade. I am not
                  talking about a rule change, nor eliminating a countable class. I'm
                  talking about making a ruling to not allow people to count a class that
                  I feel is not countable.

                  Will



                  On 9/20/2010 2:27 PM, RTRYFBAR@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Colin:
                  >
                  > If you look at the picture on the home page of the Penn's Creek, PA
                  > webpage, there is a good picture that shows flat karts with a cage:
                  >
                  > http://www.pennscreekracewaypark.com/
                  >
                  > If you look at the picture on the home page of the Young Guns Champ
                  > Kart Series webpage, there is a good picture that shows all Champ
                  > Karts:
                  >
                  > http://www.younggunsseries.com/
                  >
                  > ************************
                  >
                  > Will:
                  >
                  > My feeling is that there should be no changes to the current rule:
                  >
                  > To eliminate a class of car would discourage new people from being
                  > involved as their opportunities would be more limited than those
                  > already in the group. As we lose some of the current TrackChasers
                  > from participation, we should do what we can to try to get new people
                  > involved. It also gets confusing when a certain type of car counted
                  > before a specific point in time and then the same class of car no
                  > longer counts after that specific point in time. All classes evolve
                  > over time.
                  >
                  > For those that like to participate in TrackChasing as a competition,
                  > it would limit their chances to add tracks that others have already
                  > been to.
                  >
                  > It seems most people have accepted the Champ Kart rule as it
                  > currently is. In fact, the largest group of TrackChasers I have seen
                  > at any one track this year was at Cridersville, OH where Champ Karts
                  > were the only TrackChaser class. Colin didn't say anything against
                  > the current rule, he just asked for clarification on how to tell the
                  > difference between the countable Champ Kart and the uncountable flat
                  > kart with a cage.
                  >
                  > With one or two exceptions, everyone seems to be satisified with the
                  > rule currently in place. They either go to see Champ Karts race, or
                  > they choose not too. A lot do. It works OK for almost everyone.
                  >
                  > Champ Karts are specifically listed in the written TrackChaser rules
                  > as a countable type of little car. Also, according to the written
                  > TrackChaser rules, to change that would require a vote of all
                  > eligible voters. This rule change goes beyond the scope of a gray
                  > area ruling that you have been entrusted to make without a majority
                  > of the group agreeing.
                  >
                  > *******************************
                  >
                  > If the main issue here is that people have a hard time telling the
                  > difference between a Champ Kart and a non countable flat kart with a
                  > cage, let me offer another alternative. Instead of taking away a
                  > class that would limit the future track opportunities of new and
                  > current group members, we could consider changing the rule to allow
                  > all caged karts to count. It could even include any track visit that
                  > anyone made in good-faith this year. This option would end the
                  > confusion, without either taking away existing opportunities or going
                  > completely the other way and allowing all adult go kart racing to
                  > count. As a rule change and not a ruling, this would also require a
                  > vote as per our rules.
                  >
                  > Guy Smith
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message----- From: Will White<trackchaser@...>
                  > To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Sep 20, 2010 1:39 pm
                  > Subject: Re: [TrackChasers] Oxford kart track
                  >
                  >
                  > Colin,
                  >
                  > When champ karts first started, it was easy to tell the difference
                  > between a champ kart and a caged kart. A caged kart was simply a
                  > flat kart with a cage on it. The driver of a champ kart did not lay
                  > in the kart, but sat upright. They still do use a 5-point safety
                  > harness, which is a good way to tell the difference even today. The
                  > champ karts also originally resembled a small midget in that they had
                  > a full tail and hood.
                  >
                  > After a few years, I guess they didn't like the fact that champ
                  > karts were considerably slower and less agile than flat karts, so
                  > they gradually changed them to be more like a flat kart. Most of them
                  > only have a small, low hood, usually no tail, they lay lower and so
                  > does the driver, although they still can be distinguished by the
                  > safety harness.
                  >
                  > It gets more complicated because, as in all racing, various names
                  > are used for the classes at different tracks. It shouldn't be a
                  > problem if they are called champ karts. Occasionally a track may just
                  > call them cage karts and actually have champ karts, in which case
                  > they'd of course still be countable. Other tracks may have flat karts
                  > with cages and call them cage karts. Those are not countable. So you
                  > can't always rely on the class name.
                  >
                  > So for now, if you can't tell by the name, the best ways to tell if
                  > it's a countable champ kart would be the full safety harness and a
                  > higher hood, rather than the low, round plexiglass piece that often
                  > goes around the rider's feet on a flat kart.
                  >
                  > Because of the fact that the original champ kart has been slowly
                  > changing back to more of a flat kart with a cage, I've felt for a
                  > number of years now that they should no longer be countable. I was
                  > just never sure what was the best way to make the change. However,
                  > lately I've been thinking I may just declare that as of a certain
                  > date (perhaps 01/01/11), all champ karts are no longer countable. If
                  > this decision is made, it would only effect champ karts and not the
                  > other forms of kart-based race vehicles.
                  >
                  > Will
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 9/17/2010 8:16 PM, colin herridge wrote:
                  >> Will, What is the difference between a champ kart and a caged
                  >> kart,besides the name, and how will anybody be able to tell what
                  >> they are or might see ? Colin
                  >>
                  >> --- On Fri, 17/9/10, Will White<trackchaser@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> From: Will White<trackchaser@...> Subject: [TrackChasers]
                  >> Oxford kart track To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday,
                  >> 17 September, 2010, 18:15
                  >>
                  >> I do not recognize flat kart classes as countable on the
                  >> TrackChaser web site. In the state of Maine, all go karts race with
                  >> cages on them. Flat karts are not considered a countable class,
                  >> simply because they have a cage on them. Oxford Plains used to have
                  >> champ karts in their Friday night inner oval series, as recently as
                  >> 2009. However, I see no evidence that they ran anything countable
                  >> on the inner oval this year. In fact, I had originally planned to
                  >> go to Maine this summer and after checking the Oxford Plains site,
                  >> I noticed the track was not countable this year. Randy Lewis
                  >> visited the track last month and counted it, apparently based
                  >> solely on seeing the regular flat kart classes race. I am not
                  >> recognizing this track on his track list.
                  >
                  >
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                  >
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                • Will White
                  Guy, I thought the group made it clear a few years ago that they did not want to eliminate the competetitive aspect of TrackChasing. As I recall, that s the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 22, 2010
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                    Guy,

                    I thought the group made it clear a few years ago that they did not want
                    to eliminate the competetitive aspect of TrackChasing. As I recall,
                    that's the reason I agreed to continue making rulings and listing the
                    track lists and rankings on my site. If the group didn't want to
                    continue having all the standings and statistics, I wouldn't be
                    providing them.

                    I also recall deciding at that time, that I would be running my web site
                    as I saw fit. That doesn't mean I've hijacked the group and become a
                    dictator, because I still do what I feel is in the best interest of
                    following the rules. I don't change things to suit my personal belief in
                    how tracks should be counted.

                    Perhaps it bears reminding (yet again) that the rules are no where near
                    conclusive and it would be impractical to follow them to the letter in
                    all circumstances. I'm not stupid. Don't you think I consider these
                    things before I decide to make a ruling? And I don't wish to argue, but
                    I still say I was not inaccurate in my use of the word arguments.

                    Will



                    On 9/21/2010 11:34 AM, RTRYFBAR@... wrote:

                    I gave my opinions on what was best for the group, they were not arguments.

                    What is not either an opinion or argument is that the rule that is
                    currently in effect is that: "Little cars such as micro stocks, mini cup
                    cars, champ karts and halfmidgets count but in general all other
                    go-karts do not count." That is copied right from our rules on your site.

                    What is also not an opinion, is the only way to change the rule, also
                    copied directly, is: "Amendments may be officially proposed at any time
                    during the year, byany eligible voter, by mailing a ballot to all
                    eligible voters, withthe following exception: only one proposed change
                    may be actively onthe table at any given time. Eligible voters will be
                    defined as anyTrackChaser meeting the following two criteria: 1) has
                    attended racesat at least 400 different countable tracks; and 2) has
                    submitted theircomplete track listing (complete at least through the end
                    of theprevious year) to the group's designated statistician."

                    I have been a supporter of Will White, his role as Commissioner in
                    making rulings, and both of his websites from the beginning. But when I
                    designed the original set of rules that the original top ten voted on,
                    it was so that those that were the most active participants in the hobby
                    would be able to chart the direction it would go in. Not one person.
                    That particular part of the rules has been modified since the beginning
                    so that more people had a vote, not fewer. I believe it's intent is
                    still the same. The original idea was to make rule changes somewhat
                    complicated, so that there would be very few changes. That way old
                    members could leave the group and new people could join the group and
                    all would participate under the same guidelines.

                    This may be the perfect time to once again bring up the suggestion that
                    we do away with all rules and all individual track lists that are
                    collected in one location. That would take away all competitive aspects
                    of TrackChasing. Will's website could be used for people finding the
                    list of active tracks and the links to the track websites. This
                    listserve could be used as a way to share new information found about
                    tracks and races. Without the "3 R's to worry about (Rules, Rulings,
                    and Rankings), maybe they would be more willing to share information
                    they find, rather than revel in their "victory" when they are the only
                    TrackChaser at a particular track. Everyone could keep their own track
                    list, using whatever "rules" they would like. That would guarantee that
                    any comparisons are invalid so there would be no valid competition.

                    A bit less radical would be to get rid of all rules and rankings, but
                    still have a website that lists everyone's tracks for them, but they
                    would be allowed to include whatever they wanted. Perhaps add another
                    column to include what class of racing they saw race there so others
                    would know.

                    An off the wall suggestion would be to only have one "group" listing of
                    all the tracks where group members have seen racing.

                    I've been doing this since 1980, long before there were rules and
                    rankings. The original track lists were published soley for everyone to
                    see where everyone else had been. If we got rid of the 3 R's, maybe
                    those that are always angry would go away (or enjoy it again and be
                    friends) and we would return to being a group of pals with similar
                    interests that enjoyed finding new tracks enjoyed telling each other
                    about them, and enjoyed all getting together at the tracks. 3 R's or
                    not, I'll keep doing what I have been because I love seeing new race
                    tracks and I love photographing them, filming them, and writing about
                    them to preserve their history. Whether it would be as part of a group
                    or just with my wife would be something to think about.

                    If others want to get rid of rules, rulings, and rankings and everyone
                    keep track of their own track lists in whatever way they would like,
                    count my vote in as a yes on that.

                    Again, I gave my opinions on what was best for the group, they were not
                    arguments. The fact that they were labeled as such are a good
                    indication that it may be a good time to eliminate the 3 R's.
                  • RTRYFBAR@AOL.COM
                    TrackChasers: Will is indeed correct that a few years ago that there was no great interest in getting rid of the rankings in TrackChasing. I thought I would
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 22, 2010
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                      TrackChasers:

                      Will is indeed correct that a few years ago that there was no great interest in getting rid of the rankings in TrackChasing. I thought I would see if circumstances since then have led to a change in feelings. I don't see what past group feeling has to do with the present feeling. If Will believed that once the group decides something, it shouldn't be brought up again, he wouldn't have brought up changing what the group originally decided about the Champ Karts.

                      Allan Brown no longer wants to associate himself with us because the group voted on and passed an addition to the rules that Allan introduced and called a "Mission Statement" that says in part: "This group was formed as a democracy and only rules approved by the eligible voters can be enforced. Each individual trackchaser has the sole discretion as to include or not a specific countable track to his or her list." Will has refused to honor this on his site and forced Allan and others to keep tracks on their lists (on his site but under their name) against their will. Allan walked away. Now he emails me and others privately with opinions and information that he used to share with the whole group.

                      Roger Ferrell told me earlier in the year that he will no longer be sending his track list to Will for the website because of the way certain things are being done (I won't elaborate on that in respect to Roger who has not posted his reasons publicly). Three times this year Roger has asked me to "fix things". No one can't do this alone.

                      Yesterday I received an email that began: "Guy,It is time for you to take the website over. If Will does that, I am done with it because...". The "that" being referred to was to declare all on his own that the Champ Karts no longer count from a specific date going forward. I stopped quoting where I did so as not to reveal who sent me the email. I asked the person to email Will his feelings, but he said he would not do that because he feels Will doesn't care, so I will respect that. Again, I am only one person. If people would like to see changes made, they need to let make their feelings heard.

                      There's another person that might potentially walk away. How many people can the group afford to have decide to stop participating before it's not even worth keeping track lists and rankings anyway?

                      I understandthat Will White's website is to be run as Will sees fit. He absolutelyhas that right, no doubt about it. However, when it is filled with theTrackChasing accomplishments from the good people in this group, andwho already have established a system of rules for the hobby, thewishes of those people should be honored. The group is made up ofpeople, hopefully friends, not just raw data. Just because one has aright doesn't make it right.

                      Regarding the current question about the Champ Karts, I really don't think anyone needs to be reminded that all the rules are not conclusive. However, in this case they appear to be. Counting the Champ Karts as a small car class predated the rules, when I asked Allan about them and he sent me the infamous postcard (that has led to many disagreements) on 07/17/91 that said as far as he was concerned you can count Champ Karts, and he had first heard of them and seen them in 1989 and counted them that year. The Champ Kart question was on the original ballot before the first set of track counting guidelines and they were approved by at that time the top ten, and they are specifically mentioned by name as countable on the rules that exist today. How can it get more black and white than that?

                      The way I always interpreted a "ruling" vs. a "rule" was that a ruling was about somebody being able to count a particular track, whether or not it fit into the existing rules, which are indeed not always conclusive, nor could they be. In contrast, a rule was something that, of course, was in the rules. For one person to make a decision on their own that would eliminate an entire class of approved cars, and as a result eliminate the only small car class at a lot of tracks, seems like a rule change to me and not a ruling.

                      So, where do we go from here? I will make a suggestion and an offer.

                      The suggestion is regarding how to clear up the current question about the Champ Karts. The problem is that there are more than just two possible choices of how we can proceed. Here is how I propose we arrive at a group solution: First, we propose a rule change that lists all the options that have been suggested. In the unlikely case that one of the options would receive a majority, that would be what we would go with. In the more likely case that there would be a plurality and not a majority, we would have a second "runoff" vote (a second proposal) in which only the top two vote getters would be the choice, which would then result in a majority (or heaven forbid a tie!).

                      The choices would be:

                      a. Keep the rules as they are (Status Quo)
                      b. Eliminate the Champ Karts going forward but keep every other small car class interpretation the same (Will's feeling)
                      c. Get rid of the confusion by allowing all adult caged kart classes to count. (Guy's compromise idea but second choice, preferring status quo)
                      d. Allow all adult kart classes, caged or flat, to count. (Mike's suggestion, made one million times)
                      e. Eliminate Champ Karts at tracks that have never been visited before, but still allow them at any track already on someone's list (Andy's suggestion from awhile ago)

                      My personal fear is that if we choose (b), it will just move the gray area of confusion from "flat karts with a cage" vs. "champ karts" to two other types of small cars. A simple solution would be to keep the status quo and if you are not sure before you go to a track: ASK! I'm sure Will, myself, or someone else on this listserve would be able to accurately be able to answer almost all questions of countablilty. Of course, that won't work in the secret world of Stealth TrackChasing.

                      I volunteer on belhalf of the group to do the work and go through the lengthy process of proposing the rule changes necessary to accomplish the task of figuring out the Champ Kart question. All we need is the eligible voters to vote. But there is no point if Will is going to do what "I feel is in the best interest of following the rules" and not agree to abide by them if he disagrees, as with Allan's proposal. And everyone else should either agree to abide by the whatever the majority vote for, or if they can't live with it, thank the group for the good times and walk away like Allan, so we don't have to go through it again down the road. If we go this route, everything would stay the same until the question has been decided.

                      I also do offer/volunteer to take over the TrackChaser group part of the website as yesterday's emailer asked of me. However, I do not have that right as Will correctly points out, it is his site. I could start a new site for the group that would follow the group rules, and pledge to do my best to keep it up to date, even at the expense of other things. I am only interested in the TrackChasers part of the website, not in working on the other parts of Will's awesome site. That job is just too much for me to tackle, and as always my hat is off to Will for the work he does in listing the active tracks for us. However he could merge that part of the site with his fantastic Auto Racing Records site and make that site even better. Maybe it would work out good for Will and the group if we could split the work load in two, and both parts could be kept more up to date. I don't feel having two conflicting sites for TrackChaser track lists is in the best interest of the group. I would only want to take over the TrackChaser part of the site with Will's blessing, not in competition. As I don't have much of a background in web design, I would need his help in separating the two parts of the site, the (TrackChaser/Human) part of the current site from the (Track/Data) part of the current site. I'm a fast learner though. The above offer is NOT my preference. I only make the offer because I have been asked by several others, several times. My preference is for Will to continue to run the website, but I would like to see it respect all group majority votes. My hope would be to see more "our" and "we" referring to the group charting their own direction, and less "my" and "I" referring to the ownership of the actual site. The former would result in a site I would enthusiastically continue to be one of the strongest supporters of.

                      Of course, we can choose the status quo in this case too, and let Will continue to make decisons that he feels is best, group approval or no, based on the fact that he does so much for the group by maintaining his two informational treasure-trove websites. But we can't continue to drive away good people away like Allan, Roger, now potentially others. We will eventually run out of people, and that won't be good for those looking for friends to share in the hobby or those looking for competitors to defeat. As always, I welcome additional opinions on our listserve, and hope that any posters will do their best to stick to the issues at hand.

                      Guy Smith







                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Will White <trackchaser@...>
                      To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:10 pm
                      Subject: Re: [TrackChasers] Another Suggestion: Get Rid of the Three R's


                      Guy,

                      I thought the group made it clear a few years ago that they did not want
                      to eliminate the competetitive aspect of TrackChasing. As I recall,
                      that's the reason I agreed to continue making rulings and listing the
                      track lists and rankings on my site. If the group didn't want to
                      continue having all the standings and statistics, I wouldn't be
                      providing them.

                      I also recall deciding at that time, that I would be running my web site
                      as I saw fit. That doesn't mean I've hijacked the group and become a
                      dictator, because I still do what I feel is in the best interest of
                      following the rules. I don't change things to suit my personal belief in
                      how tracks should be counted.

                      Perhaps it bears reminding (yet again) that the rules are no where near
                      conclusive and it would be impractical to follow them to the letter in
                      all circumstances. I'm not stupid. Don't you think I consider these
                      things before I decide to make a ruling? And I don't wish to argue, but
                      I still say I was not inaccurate in my use of the word arguments.

                      Will



                      On 9/21/2010 11:34 AM, RTRYFBAR@... wrote:

                      I gave my opinions on what was best for the group, they were not arguments.

                      What is not either an opinion or argument is that the rule that is
                      currently in effect is that: "Little cars such as micro stocks, mini cup
                      cars, champ karts and halfmidgets count but in general all other
                      go-karts do not count." That is copied right from our rules on your site.

                      What is also not an opinion, is the only way to change the rule, also
                      copied directly, is: "Amendments may be officially proposed at any time
                      during the year, byany eligible voter, by mailing a ballot to all
                      eligible voters, withthe following exception: only one proposed change
                      may be actively onthe table at any given time. Eligible voters will be
                      defined as anyTrackChaser meeting the following two criteria: 1) has
                      attended racesat at least 400 different countable tracks; and 2) has
                      submitted theircomplete track listing (complete at least through the end
                      of theprevious year) to the group's designated statistician."

                      I have been a supporter of Will White, his role as Commissioner in
                      making rulings, and both of his websites from the beginning. But when I
                      designed the original set of rules that the original top ten voted on,
                      it was so that those that were the most active participants in the hobby
                      would be able to chart the direction it would go in. Not one person.
                      That particular part of the rules has been modified since the beginning
                      so that more people had a vote, not fewer. I believe it's intent is
                      still the same. The original idea was to make rule changes somewhat
                      complicated, so that there would be very few changes. That way old
                      members could leave the group and new people could join the group and
                      all would participate under the same guidelines.

                      This may be the perfect time to once again bring up the suggestion that
                      we do away with all rules and all individual track lists that are
                      collected in one location. That would take away all competitive aspects
                      of TrackChasing. Will's website could be used for people finding the
                      list of active tracks and the links to the track websites. This
                      listserve could be used as a way to share new information found about
                      tracks and races. Without the "3 R's to worry about (Rules, Rulings,
                      and Rankings), maybe they would be more willing to share information
                      they find, rather than revel in their "victory" when they are the only
                      TrackChaser at a particular track. Everyone could keep their own track
                      list, using whatever "rules" they would like. That would guarantee that
                      any comparisons are invalid so there would be no valid competition.

                      A bit less radical would be to get rid of all rules and rankings, but
                      still have a website that lists everyone's tracks for them, but they
                      would be allowed to include whatever they wanted. Perhaps add another
                      column to include what class of racing they saw race there so others
                      would know.

                      An off the wall suggestion would be to only have one "group" listing of
                      all the tracks where group members have seen racing.

                      I've been doing this since 1980, long before there were rules and
                      rankings. The original track lists were published soley for everyone to
                      see where everyone else had been. If we got rid of the 3 R's, maybe
                      those that are always angry would go away (or enjoy it again and be
                      friends) and we would return to being a group of pals with similar
                      interests that enjoyed finding new tracks enjoyed telling each other
                      about them, and enjoyed all getting together at the tracks. 3 R's or
                      not, I'll keep doing what I have been because I love seeing new race
                      tracks and I love photographing them, filming them, and writing about
                      them to preserve their history. Whether it would be as part of a group
                      or just with my wife would be something to think about.

                      If others want to get rid of rules, rulings, and rankings and everyone
                      keep track of their own track lists in whatever way they would like,
                      count my vote in as a yes on that.

                      Again, I gave my opinions on what was best for the group, they were not
                      arguments. The fact that they were labeled as such are a good
                      indication that it may be a good time to eliminate the 3 R's.



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