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Re: [TrackChasers] Mission Statement

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  • ccass176@aol.com
    Lads, lets get back to what it s about. Going to new tracks to see some racing. It s supposed to be fun. Colin C [Non-text portions of this message have been
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 23, 2007
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      Lads, lets get back to what it's about. Going to new tracks to see some
      racing.

      It's supposed to be fun.

      Colin C






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Steve Rixon
      Hi guys I m very inclined to agree with Colin on this. Over the past couple years or so we ve had people leave the group and the message group over
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 23, 2007
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        Hi guys

        I'm very inclined to agree with Colin on this.

        Over the past couple years or so we've had people leave the group and the
        message group over countability, lack of commitment to this list group,
        other's criticism of their chasing methods etc etc.when did this start to be
        taken so seriously that friendships and friendly competition got lost ???

        I appreciate that I don't take this as seriously or commit to Trackchasing
        in the same manner as many on the list, but I still get a buzz from visiting
        new venues and ABOVE ALL watching the racing at these venues. I also find it
        very interesting to share this with others and have met some of you guys
        along the way. Surely that's what this HOBBY is all about at the end of the
        day???

        Linda is approaching, in fact has recently equalled Colin H's life total.but
        I don't see that Colin will fall out with us over it.I sincerely hope not
        anyway.I would hope he'll still bombarb me with endless e-mail jokes as
        normal and will stop to chat next time our paths cross.that's the way it
        should be in my opinion ???

        FUN & FRIENDLY

        Spike

        -----Original Message-----
        From: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com]On
        Behalf Of ccass176@...
        Sent: 23 November 2007 18:43
        To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [TrackChasers] Mission Statement

        Lads, lets get back to what it's about. Going to new tracks to see some
        racing.

        It's supposed to be fun.

        Colin C

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Allan Brown
        To my fellow Trackchasers, First off, we are all in agreement that Will White and his wonderful website called Trackchaser.net has been a godsend to this
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 23, 2007
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          To my fellow Trackchasers,

          First off, we are all in agreement that Will White and his wonderful website called "Trackchaser.net" has been a godsend to this group. Bruce and I used his website extensively for our trip to England. It is the most complete website for foreign tracks available on the internet, and I have pointed people to his website for foreign tracks on numerous occasions. Plus we all are indebted to him for his continuing devotion to this group as the designated statistician. The way he put everyone's list into a database and then creates the sublists is phenomenal. Take a bow Will. I consider Will a friend, even though our views differ at the present time. Unfortunately, he misunderstood what was expected of him or what his limitations were.

          Although we all appreciate his unending efforts for this group, let me remind everyone that he is not the commissioner and officially does not have the authority to interpret or make rules. The position of Commissioner never existed. More importantly he was never voted into any position, he has only assumed he has the authority. This group was created as democracy, and no one has ever been elected into such an important position. The Trackchasers do not have a Commissioner, an Executive Director, a President, a Vice-President, a Secretary, nor even a Treasurer. None of the above executive positions ever existed. I know he thinks he was doing what was best for the group, and his intentions were honorable, but no one, and let me repeat this, NO ONE has ever officially been given the authority to make rules on their own for the betterment of this group. As a democracy, and according to our voted upon rules, it is the right of all eligible voters, via proposals, to make such decisions. Only rules that are voted on and approved by the voters can be enforced.

          If you do not believe that Will White has been making decisions on his own, then I urge everyone to read the following statement which is hidden in the "Trackchaser FAQ" on his website.

          8. Must I submit tracks that meet the rules but that I think should not count?
          To date, TrackChasers who felt strongly against counting certain types of countable tracks, cars or races, were not forced to add tracks to their lists under such circumstances. Those who wished to maintain a higher personal standard in track counting were free to do so, even though such practice went against the goal of comparing track lists on an equal basis. With this is mind, beginning in 2007 all track lists will begin to reflect all countable track visits by each TrackChaser (as well as can be determined), including those tracks that were withheld or removed in the past. This will create the best possible comparison of totals using the agreed upon rules.

          The above statement sounds harmless, but it effects every trackchaser in some degree. It is just an opinion by Will White, and everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. Unfortunately, it is no longer just an opinion because he started enforcing it in January of 2007. When he did, it became a new RULE. The above rule was never approved by the voters. He never sent it out as a proposal, he just started forcing his opinion upon the rest of the group.

          May I also remind everyone that from the very beginning, members have had the option to refrain from counting tracks from their lists at their own discretion. We have people who have went to Champ Kart races to see what they were like, and then refused to count them. That is their prerogative. We have people who count, and also we have people who do not count, the AARA vintage races. That decision should be left up to each individual. Again that is their prerogative. We also have members who do not count inner ovals. It has always been each individual trackchasers freedom to do so, until now. Remember, the individual lists belong to each individual, we are indebted to each of them for taking the time to share their lists with the Trackchasers. In most cases the individual lists of the participating members would not be available if not for the generosity of those individuals. There are many people who would qualify for our group, but have not sent in their list. Some have seen racing at over 500 tracks. It is their prerogative not to join. Belonging to this group is voluntary. This group called "The Trackchasers" do not own the individual lists, and we have no authority to alter the said lists. Only the individuals have that freedom.

          Second, I followed the below rules and should not be condemned for anything.

          FUTURE CONSIDERATIONS
          Amendments may be officially proposed at any time during the year, by any eligible voter, by mailing a ballot to all eligible voters, with the following exception: only one proposed change may be actively on the table at any given time. Eligible voters will be defined as any TrackChaser meeting the following two criteria: 1) has attended races at least 400 different countable tracks; and 2) has submitted their complete track listing (complete at least through the end of the previous year) to the group's designated statistician.

          All proposals, except for one, were sent through the US Postal System via first class mail. The last ballot was sent on November 21st to Roland via email. All of the other ballots would have either been delivered or were on they way before the 21st. It is now November 23rd, which might not allow enough time for all ballots to arrive at their destinations. The ballots will be returned to our PO Box and will remained sealed and will then be sent to independent trackchasers (Guy & Pam Smith) for counting. If they want to invite Gordy, Bruce & Pat, Mike K. and/or Will White to be present when the ballots are opened that is their prerogative.

          I am taking it one step further. In the past the ballots have been sent, returned and then counted. This time each ballot has the individual return address on the envelope. On December 10th, I will compare the returned envelopes with the eligible voters list and then email or mail every individual who has not returned their ballot and remind them that the date for submitting the ballot is nearing. We cannot accept any ballots that are postmarked after December 21st. I will cc: the emails and make copies of any letters and send them to Guy and Pam, along with the list of ballots that have been received up to that point. Guy and Pam can also remind the voters that they should send in their ballot at that time. I will then package up the ballots, including any ballots that might have postmarks after December 21st, and send them to Guy and Pam before the end of the year. If anyone else wants to see the final ballots after they are counted, they can contact Guy and Pam.

          No one has to go thru Will White to make a proposal.

          The following is a copy of an email I received from Will White on 10/29/2007. Nowhere in the email did he say that I was not eligible. He assumed I was eligible, as he had all of my countable tracks as of the end of 2006. I have not sent in all of the 2007 tracks, but will do so before December 31st to remain eligible.

          Allan,

          That amendment passed the vote in March, 2001. People who are presently
          not eligible, but would be if they updated their list at least through
          the end of 2006, include Rick Schneider, Dale O'Brien and Kevin Eckert.
          This is to the best of my knowledge of course. I'm assuming I have all
          your countable tracks through the end of 2006. These people would have
          to send me an update before they could submit a proposal. However, if a
          proposal is made by someone I would suggest sending it to these people
          and informing them that if they update their list they will be eligible
          to vote on the proposal.

          Will


          I do not know how the rest of you feel, but I feel that I am being treated unfairly.

          Will White is only the designated statistician and never officially given the authority to do anything else. It should also be obvious that he has side-stepped the political process by making decisions on his own.

          Allan E. Brown
          Nancy Brown

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Will White
          Allan, When was I ever officially given the authority to be the statistician then? What gives me the right to do anything? I don t ever remember being
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 23, 2007
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            Allan,

            When was I ever officially given the authority to be the statistician
            then? What gives me the right to do anything? I don't ever remember
            being officially designated as statistician. Everything I've ever done
            in this group was only done by me overstepping my authority; I can't
            recall ever being elected to any position. I might as well just resign
            from every position I forcefully took and wait for the group to vote on
            what they want to do next. You're the first person to ever point all
            this out after several years of the majority of others tricking me into
            thinking I actually was expected to handle the procedures, listkeeping
            policies and track counting interpretations. You've finally revealed the
            best kept secret in trackchasing.

            If the rest of the group agrees with you that I've seized power against
            their wishes and never had the authority to do any of this, then I'll
            say shame on you all for being such a bunch of hypocrites, pack up my
            web site and go home. If not, I'll continue to do what I think is best
            for the group until they vote to change the way things are done.

            Will


            Allan Brown wrote:
            > Will White is only the designated statistician and never officially given the authority to do anything else.
          • John
            Bravo Allan! This explains alot of things for me. As I am not a voting member of this group, I can t make any formal proposals. However, here is some food for
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 23, 2007
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              Bravo Allan!
              This explains alot of things for me. As I am not a voting member of
              this group, I can't make any formal proposals. However, here is some
              food for thought for those who are voting members. Will has filled a
              very important part in making this group more organized by compiling
              the stats into the wonderful Trackchasers.net website. I discovered
              the Trackchasers when I was searching for foriegn tracks and have
              been greatly entertained and informed ever since. I think that having
              a ruling body to interpret the rules is something that is needed with
              all of the new and unusual tracks that are showing up. I think the
              Will has done an admiralble job in doing this job. However, as Allan
              stated, the position of Commisioner is not something that is spelled
              out in the rules. I think what would work is a 3 person board to take
              over the interpretation of the rules, settling of disputes, and be
              the contact point for new rule proposals. New rule proposals should
              go through this board first to ensure that there are no conflicts
              with existing rules and be responsible for distributing the proposal
              to the eligible voters. This board could serve a set term and be
              voted on by the eligible members. Track lists would still be
              submitted to Will for inclusion on the website. As far as what tracks
              each member decides to submit, I agree with Allan. It should be left
              as a personal decision of each member. The types of tracks that are
              eligible to be submitted are spelled out in the rules. I someone
              doesn't want certain tracks to be counted, then they shouldn't be
              counted. For some, Trackchasing is a compition and they will submit
              every eligible track they go to. For some, they submit their lists
              just to let others know where they have been. It doesn't have to be
              an either/or proposition. Let each member enjoy this hobby as they
              see fit.

              John Sullivan
            • Allan Brown
              To John Sullivan, Thank you for your insight. And Will please do not resign, and I appologize for being so blunt, as you have done a spectatular job of keeping
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 24, 2007
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                To John Sullivan,

                Thank you for your insight.

                And Will please do not resign, and I appologize for being so blunt, as you have done a spectatular job of keeping the stats of everyone and I certainly hope you will continue.

                John Sullivan hit it right on the nose when he said "For some, Trackchasing is a compition and they will submit every eligible track they go to. For some, they submit their lists just to let others know where they have been. It doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. Let each member enjoy this hobby as they see fit."

                Will, maybe it's time for you to step back a little. I know you were only trying to help. It isn't right for anyone to put this much pressure on you. I consider you a dear friend, but you let yourself take on more responsibility than any one of us should ever have to.

                Will, I really like the idea of a three or five man comittee, In fact I would insist that you to head it. You'd be perfect, but something we have to remember, if someone submits a new venue, and we turn it over to this committee, and that person agrees with the committees decision, that's great. If that person does not, then he or she still has every right to have it presented to the full eligible voters as a form of a proposal. I know it's more convienent the way it's been done lately, but it seems like all too often a decision is made (and I've agreed with you most everytime) the other person get's upset. Rick became so infuriated that he quit. I'm still trying my darndest to get him back. He is still being bull-headed on the Lake Erie apron issue, so it's not just some of your decisions that has him so worked up.

                Let's have a committee, let's spread the responsibility around.

                Maybe it's time some people (myself included) stop taking Trackchasing so serious. Please, let's make it fun again. It was never meant to be competition, other than friendly competition. We are only a social group. That's all.

                But we really do need a proposal to add "and/or email", even if it is nothing more than a formality, as I'm sure everyone would be in agreement that email is the way to go. We are subject to the rules as they are written and there are no provisions for email at present.

                For everyone's information these are my tracks from 2007. I had already turned in Nancy's very limited list of just six tracks. As most of you know she has stayed home to tend to her 91 year old mom, who by the way is doing fine. Louise had a ball with us last weekend in Indy.

                1/20/2007 - Yale Lion's Club, MI - Figure 8s (also Nancy)
                2/10/2007 - Hendry County Speedway, FL - Late Models (sat with Pat & Bruce)
                4/21/2007 - Jackson County Speedway, IA - IMCA Deery Late Models
                5/3/2997 - Shenandoah Speedway, VA - Hooters (sat with Dale O'Brien)
                5/5/2007 - Carolina Motorsports Park, SC - NASA (rained out at Florence, SC that night)
                5/6/2007 - Millbridge Speedway, NC - Legend Cars (sat with Rich Goodman)
                5/8/2007 -Skyline Speedway, OH - Late Models (was to have been at Williams Grove - rain)
                5/9/2007 - Brown County Speedway, OH - Late Models (was to have been at Orange Co, NY - again rain)
                5/26/2007 - Lake County Speedway, SD - Modifieds (scheduled to go to Hooters race at Madison, WI - rain)
                6/15/2007 - North Georgia Speedway, GA - Lucas Oil Late Models
                (NOTE rain out at Bowman-Gray the next night - only saw practice - sat with Rich and Connie Goodman)
                6/17/2007 - Hemi Speedway, SC - Stocks (most disappointing race of the year - water truck broke down - dusty)
                6/22/2007 - Kopellah Speedway, WI - Sprints (schedule for a race in Illinois had to head north - rain)
                6/23/2007 - TNT Speedway, WI - Modifieds (rain in Illinois kept me in northern Wisconsin)
                6/24/2007 - Waynesfield Motorsports Park, OH - All-Star Sprints (sat with Ed Esser & Bruce Carley)
                6/25/2007 - Hilltop Speedway, OH - All Star Sprints (sat with Ed Esser & Bruce Carley)
                6/29/2007 - Dog Hollow Speedway, PA - Late Models
                6/20/2007 - O'Brien Oval Speedway, WV - Stocks (afternoon)
                6/20/2007 - I-77 Speedway, WV - Late Models (night) (sat with Steve Stone)
                7/6/2007 - Wonderland Speedway, ON - Micro-Sprints
                7/7/2007 - Grand Prix of Toronto, ON (afternoon) - Formula Mazda
                7/7/2007 - Brighton Speedway Park, ON (night) - SOS Sprints
                (NOTE got rained out at Cornwall for the second time the next night)
                7/13/2007 - Jefferson County Speedway, NE - Jayhusker TQs (with Nancy)
                7/14/2007 - RPM Speedway, KS - NCRA Sprints (with Nancy)
                7/15/2007 - Stuart Speedway, NE - Sprints (with Nancy)
                7/29/2007 - Bremerton Raceway, WA - SCCA SportsCar (with Bruce, Pat and Nancy)
                8/10/2007 - Coopersville SummerFest, MI - Unique scrambles (sat with Ed Esser, Norm Wagner, Randy Lewis, Mike DeFoe)
                8/14/2007 - Millersburg Fairgrounds, OH - JM Figure 8s
                8/15/2007 - Palmyra Fairgrounds, NY - JM Figure 8s
                (note the next night I was setting with Grant Young at Thompson Speedway.
                That was the night John Blewitt III was killed - very sad day)
                8/18/2007 - CanAm Motorsports Park, NY - DIRT BB Mods (sat with Rick Young)
                8/19/2007 - Wyoming County Speedway, NY - Legend Cars
                8/24/2007 - Carsonville Lions Club, MI - Figure 8s (rained out at Milan Dragway, lucky to find any race that night)
                8/31/2007 - Rocky Top Raceway, OH - Late Models
                9/1/2007 - Tyler County Speedway, WV - Lucas Oil Late Models "Hillbilly 100"
                9/2/2007 - Hummingbird Speedway, PA - Stocks
                9/7/2007 - Allegan County Fairgrounds, MI - Unique Figure 8s (sat with Norm Wagner)
                9/9/2007 - Motorsports Park Hastings, NE - Vintage sports cars
                9/12/2007 - Clay County Speedway, IA - WoO Sprints (sat with Dale O'Brien)
                9/15/2007 - Brookfield Fairgrounds, IL - small car Enduro (went to Lawrenecburg, IN for All Stars the night before)
                9/28/2007 - Moler Raceway Park, OH - Late Models (sat with Ed Esser who still owes me a french fry)
                9/29/2007 - Natural Bridge Speedway, VA - Late Models (sat with J.D. Camden, who'd love to be a trackchaser)
                10/5/2007 - Delta Speedway, CA - Mini-Sprints
                10/6/2007 - Willow Springs (2.5 mile road course), CA - Vintage (had saw practice at track in 1984)
                10/7/2007 - Victorville Speedway, CA (night) - IMCA Modifieds
                10/8/2007 - Coronado SeaFest, CA - Vintage
                10/14/2007 - Barber Motorsports Park, AL - NASA
                10/20/2007 - Butler County Motorsports Park, AL - Late Models
                10/21/2007 - South Alabama Speedway, AL - 200 lap Late Models
                10/27/2007 - Lisbon Fairgrounds, OH - Figure 8s (also with Gordy, Andy, Brian, Mike, Guy, Chuck Bollander and Rick Berry)

                Allan


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Will White
                Thank you all who ve continued to push for putting the fun back in trackchasing. I finally realize that I ve been a major contributor to the group s
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 24, 2007
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                  Thank you all who've continued to push for putting the fun back in
                  trackchasing. I finally realize that I've been a major contributor to
                  the group's unhappiness (including my own) and I do have the power to
                  really do something about it. There will be some major changes to the
                  web site, the track lists and the way tracks are counted. I am going to
                  wait until after the end of the year though, so as not to ruin things
                  for anyone who may have been working all year long at some personal
                  trackchasing goals or whatever. I won't make any changes until January.

                  This is what I'm going to do starting in 2008. Firstly, I'm no longer
                  going to interpret or enforce any rules or make any decisions regarding
                  what to include on anyone's track list. I'll offer advice if asked but I
                  will leave any track counting decisions up to the individual. Secondly,
                  as I said, there will be major changes to the web site. Gone will be all
                  the trackchaser statistics pages, the rankings and the totals. In fact,
                  I will only continue to display the track lists of those who
                  specifically request that I do so. All others will be removed within the
                  first few weeks of the year.

                  For those lists that are displayed, I will not take the trackchaser
                  rules into consideration but will post whatever tracks each individual
                  wants on their list. Displaying any lists will only be done as a
                  personal favor to the individuals who desire to have their tracks shown
                  to the public. The track lists and totals as they stand at the end of
                  this year will be kept up for at least a couple weeks and can be made
                  available after that if needed. As there will no longer be any counting
                  or ranking of lists on my part I will also be opening up the track
                  listing offer to anyone who wishes to have their tracks included on the
                  web site, no matter how small the total.

                  Any changes anyone wishes to make to their track list will have to be
                  submitted to me, either by e-mail, postal mail or in person. I will
                  neither solicit nor search for any updates myself as the lists will be
                  completely personal and voluntary. I will not work on the lists as
                  frequently as I used to and not on any time schedule, but hopefully no
                  one will have to wait much more than a month for their updates to post
                  (no guarantees though).

                  I've been working behind the scenes for some time to prepare a web site
                  of worldwide track information that will be far greater than what you
                  currently find on www.trackchaser.net . The new site, which I hope to
                  debut sometime around the middle of next year, will cover all worldwide
                  tracks since the beginning of auto racing. This will be just the basic
                  beginning of the project and I'll continue to add to it into the future.
                  Of course all the new tracks will still be added as well. Site visitors
                  will have an option to view just the active tracks, like they do now, or
                  to look at the entire database of historical info. This is something
                  I've wanted to do for a long time and I'm finally beginning to make it
                  happen. It's one of the most exciting projects I've ever engaged in and
                  I can't wait to get it on the Web.

                  As for the trackchasers group, I'm really looking forward to
                  concentrating more on the fun side of it again. I've done my "tour of
                  duty" and now it's time for me to just be one of the gang again. I'll
                  still contribute a lot through the web site and this forum, but I have
                  no plans to accept any official group positions that may or may not be
                  voted on in the future.

                  I've been hearing from a number of trackchasers that competition is
                  taking the fun out of the group. I've decided to do my part to take
                  competition out of it and we'll see whether or not the fun increases
                  back to the level it was at several years ago. Let's give it a shot.

                  Will
                • RPMGORDY@aol.com
                  Greetings from your breadman, While chowing down on a fine Thanksgiving dinner prepared by Suz, Mike Knappenberger and I decided we might as well head toward
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 24, 2007
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                    Greetings from your breadman,

                    While chowing down on a fine Thanksgiving dinner prepared by Suz, Mike
                    Knappenberger and I decided we might as well head toward SC that night so we
                    could knock off the Mileback Speedway the next day. Hot laps at 2:00 and
                    racing at 3:00 meant hot laps at 3:00 and racing at 3:30 for super late models,
                    crate late models, renegades and fwd's that numbered 14,15, 15 and 7
                    respectively. The last 3 classes ran 2 heats each before the super lates time trialed.
                    We had to leave at that point as I had to be at work at 3:00am and a 10 hour
                    drive faced us. The track is a high banked, 3/8th mile of red clay. Cement
                    walls run the entire length of both sides of the surface with an occasional
                    break for access. $15 garnered us a seat on the typical concrete slab
                    grandstand. Visibility wasn't the greatest as we stared into a setting sun, and all
                    pitted in the infield. Ninety minutes to run 6 heats is never ideal, and the
                    racing wasn't very good as there were numerous wrecks that the "wrecker dudes"
                    and "4-wheeler dudes" had to deal with. Three of the heats had 2 finishers.
                    One of them had 3 starters. Mike tried to purchase nachos for the $2.50 that a
                    sign said they cost. When told that they cost $3 that day he refused them
                    altogether. You can't pull that kind of crap and be successful. At least our
                    leaving early spared us from temperatures that were dropping rapidly as the sun
                    set.

                    Paul Weisel will join Mike and I for a trip to Quit Raceway in RI
                    tomorrow for what looks like a last trackchaser hoorah. We've managed to misuse
                    this fine toy Will created for us, and now his feelings are hurt to boot. The
                    competitive cancer that infected the group has succeeded in destroying the
                    core of the hobby. The stats that we've used to fuel our pettiness will soon be
                    taken away lest we harm ourselves further. Bravo, people. Being #1 in some
                    stat has become so important to some that creating new categories for the sole
                    purpose of casting one's self in a brighter light has led to less than
                    exemplary behavior by many. Even I succumb to the temptation of mining NGD points
                    for the sole purpose of irritating their creator. No sense pointing fingers,
                    as some don't want to hear it, and the moderator will punish me for it. Will
                    has now lost his desire to maintain what we have, content to lose himself in
                    research that interests few. Understandable, as that research won't question
                    every thing he does. I've found him to be a mostly private person that never
                    sought the spotlight we've cast him in. It's his toy, and he has the right to
                    do with it as he pleases. I now make a plea for him to maintain the status
                    quo in spite of the insanity that is it's #1 by-product. If no progress is made
                    in the next calendar year to make things more palatable for all, then by all
                    means scrap the stats and follow your international calling. Adios.

                    Gordy



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • RTRYFBAR@AOL.COM
                    TrackChasers: I spent my Thanksgiving holiday at Wall Speedway for the Turkey Derby, as I have for almost each of the last 25 years...Not a new track, just
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 24, 2007
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                      TrackChasers:

                      I spent my Thanksgiving holiday at Wall Speedway for the Turkey Derby, as I have for almost each of the last 25 years...Not a new track, just going racing for fun, and yes I had fun...There still seems to be turmoil within the group, however

                      I started this group about 15 years ago.? At the time, the rankings were mostly just used as a comparison so all of us could see where each other had been...There was a bit of competition involved, but absolutely none without sportsmanship and friendship...It seemed to work pretty well until the last three years or so

                      A combination of factors has led to competition becoming far more important than the friendship, sportsmanship, or contribution to the sport?parts of TrackChasing...I think that the first time that someone decided to withhold a new track discovery from Will (and thus his website, one of the great group contributions to the sport) and also from?the group listserve; with the hope that they alone would know about and be able to attend the track, it was the beginning of the end...In the time since then, far worse has been done in the name of strategy, objectves,?and competition

                      Gordy suggested that Will give the group one more year with the status quo before acting...I suggest the opposite...For the second day in a row I?ask to Allan Brown that he voluntarily withdraw the rule proposal he has on the table...If he does so, I will propose for group vote that we eliminate all TrackChaser rules...For 2008, we could operate within the framework Will has outlined...no rankings, no rules, all voluntary, and go back to using the track lists for mostly for comparison purposes...If we did this perhaps we would be able to put the TrackChaser?Website accuracy?ahead of the desire to sneak in a track on all others...perhaps the TrackChaser listserve could become more active again with people sharing information about upcoming events like we used to, perhaps the desire by some?to attend a new track and watch a minimum amount of the show?before heading to a second and third track would diminish, and perhaps the desire to be the only member of the group at a track would end..It would be appropriate if I would make the proposal to eliminate all the rules, as I was the one that wrote the original version of the guidelines years ago

                      If after 2008 we decided it was better with some structure, we could start over and try to come up with something that more people agreed with...All the people that complained about everything that Will (and before that me) tried to do for the betterment of the group can have their say and they might do a lot better than Will and I did with the old guidelines when writing?the new guidelines...Maybe we could even get Will to go back to posting them and following them when displaying individual track lists on the website

                      I do have concerns about whether this is really what the majority of the group want to do...On the one hand, we have a lot of people?saying that they long?for a return to the fun days of TrackChasing...On the other hand, for the past couple of years I have proposed (just on the listserve, not officially) removing all rankings from TrackChasing and just listing everyone alphabetically....And there was VERY little support when I floated that trial baloon

                      I both trust and agree with Will...He wants to take all rankings off the TrackChaser website...I say let's go one step further and officially vote to eliminate the rules, so no one can try to continue the rankings elsewhere...Let's give it a shot and try to make the hobby fun again...I vote YES!

                      Guy Smith

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                    • Andy Ritter
                      I have been reading the various posts on the issue at hand. I want to make sure this forum is used for everyone to express their opinion on the subject. As
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 25, 2007
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                        I have been reading the various posts on the issue at hand. I want
                        to make sure this forum is used for everyone to express their opinion
                        on the subject.

                        As for my opinion- I am fine with whichever way it goes. I must say
                        that this hobby is no longer fun for me either. The reasons vary
                        however- I have simply lost interest in racing altogether- aside
                        from racing my own car- thus the reason for me getting zero new
                        tracks this year. I am simply no longer willing to put up with the
                        BS and poor quality of weekly auto racing shows, and find my time and
                        money better spent elsewhere. I guess I just finally realized that
                        spending money on gas and admission, only to sit and watch a poorly
                        organized and unentertaining show is just not worth it for me. I am
                        not sure if I will ever go back as I made it a whole year and only
                        attended 3 shows altogether at weekly tracks, and none more than an
                        hour and a half from home, and none since april aside from a couple
                        nearby fair shows to visit with friends. Sure I think I would love
                        to see a decent wingless sprint show on a well prepared surface, but
                        since I went the whole year and honestly dont miss it I dont know if
                        things will change back to the way they were. Also with gas prices
                        and having a young family, as well as trying to maintain my own car
                        and hit as many hockey games as possible (my new hobby), there just
                        isnt time.

                        I will say it is a shame as Will has given his effort for a bunch of
                        years with no compensation whatsoever, and having to put up with a
                        lot of grief from the group. I am surprised he put up with it this
                        long, and dont blame him for stopping with the rankings.

                        I will say when I first became aware of this site and the
                        accomplishments of its members I was in awe. I was somewhat star-
                        struck and pleased to be able to share ideas and information with
                        guys who I looked up to. After seeing the inner workings of the
                        group first hand for the last couple years I must say that I have
                        never seen a group of people who have more infighting and simply cant
                        get along as this one. This is hobby for Gods sake! No matter what
                        it seems like people cant be happy and have fun anymore. As for Will
                        not being elected- that may be true, but I have not seen anyone else
                        willing to step up and do the work that he does. As far as counting
                        tracks go- we have a system in place where the group can decide what
                        we count and how we count it, and have done my best to follow the
                        rules. I dont like champ karts, and dont think they should count- so
                        I dont go to those races. The rules are clear, and almost everyone
                        disagrees with some of the rules, but it was a workable system which
                        I think was good for the group.

                        In regards to eliminating rankings- I understand Will's decision as
                        it is too much hassle for him to put up with.
                        Not because of the concept of rankings, but because the people
                        involved simply have too many conflicts and cant keep things in
                        perspective. I dont know that Will elminating rankings will
                        eliminate competitiveness. I also dont think it is fair to those who
                        have followed the rules and abided by the groups rulings. I do
                        however understand why he is making such a decision. I know when I
                        heard about Guy, Allan, and Gordy completing their 50th state in
                        Rhode Island when they first did it that that was something I wanted
                        to do. I was able to accomplish this and am proud to be listed in
                        the 50 state club on the site. But honestly only a year and a half
                        later I must say it doesnt really mean that much to me anymore
                        largely due to the conflicts and behavior of many in the group. If
                        that page gets taken down and lost forever- so be it as I know what I
                        accomplished, and that is good enough for me. A friendly competition
                        was fun for me, as I think it was for most, but some people take
                        things too seriously and that is where the problems come in. (to me
                        that problem is with those people and not the system). Passion is a
                        good thing- but honestly this competition is no more important than
                        folding up a paper football and flicking it through your friends
                        fingers at recess in the 5th grade. Maybe someone else will pick up
                        and track the rankings, etc and those who want to participate can,
                        and those who dont can decide not to.

                        In summation- as noted above maybe I am the wrong person for the
                        moderator job as I no longer hold much interest in the whole thing.
                        On the other hand the past several month have made me look at things
                        from a different perspective, from more of an outside point of view,
                        and I can really see how trivial this whole thing is. Maybe that
                        makes me more objective than most as I now have an outside
                        perspective, yet understand how the group works.
                        I have met good friends and shared amazing conversation with many in
                        the group, and hope to meet up again with some of you at tracks in
                        the future if my interest in racing returns. I agree this whole
                        thing started by a group of Racefans. Is it still fun to go to a new
                        track? Yeah I guess it is. Is it fun seeing the established leaders
                        in the group continue to bicker? No, and I do think it has been for
                        some time.

                        Sorry for this rant but those are my thoughts. I dont think
                        eliminating rankings will bring more fun into the hobby or more
                        sharing of information, but if that is the way it ends up then we
                        will all have to deal with it and figure out what makes each of us
                        happy.


                        Keep it fun!

                        Andy Ritter





                        --- In TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com, Will White <trackchaser@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Thank you all who've continued to push for putting the fun back in
                        > trackchasing. I finally realize that I've been a major contributor
                        to
                        > the group's unhappiness (including my own) and I do have the power
                        to
                        > really do something about it. There will be some major changes to
                        the
                        > web site, the track lists and the way tracks are counted. I am
                        going to
                        > wait until after the end of the year though, so as not to ruin
                        things
                        > for anyone who may have been working all year long at some personal
                        > trackchasing goals or whatever. I won't make any changes until
                        January.
                        >
                        > This is what I'm going to do starting in 2008. Firstly, I'm no
                        longer
                        > going to interpret or enforce any rules or make any decisions
                        regarding
                        > what to include on anyone's track list. I'll offer advice if asked
                        but I
                        > will leave any track counting decisions up to the individual.
                        Secondly,
                        > as I said, there will be major changes to the web site. Gone will
                        be all
                        > the trackchaser statistics pages, the rankings and the totals. In
                        fact,
                        > I will only continue to display the track lists of those who
                        > specifically request that I do so. All others will be removed
                        within the
                        > first few weeks of the year.
                        >
                        > For those lists that are displayed, I will not take the trackchaser
                        > rules into consideration but will post whatever tracks each
                        individual
                        > wants on their list. Displaying any lists will only be done as a
                        > personal favor to the individuals who desire to have their tracks
                        shown
                        > to the public. The track lists and totals as they stand at the end
                        of
                        > this year will be kept up for at least a couple weeks and can be
                        made
                        > available after that if needed. As there will no longer be any
                        counting
                        > or ranking of lists on my part I will also be opening up the track
                        > listing offer to anyone who wishes to have their tracks included on
                        the
                        > web site, no matter how small the total.
                        >
                        > Any changes anyone wishes to make to their track list will have to
                        be
                        > submitted to me, either by e-mail, postal mail or in person. I will
                        > neither solicit nor search for any updates myself as the lists will
                        be
                        > completely personal and voluntary. I will not work on the lists as
                        > frequently as I used to and not on any time schedule, but hopefully
                        no
                        > one will have to wait much more than a month for their updates to
                        post
                        > (no guarantees though).
                        >
                        > I've been working behind the scenes for some time to prepare a web
                        site
                        > of worldwide track information that will be far greater than what
                        you
                        > currently find on www.trackchaser.net . The new site, which I hope
                        to
                        > debut sometime around the middle of next year, will cover all
                        worldwide
                        > tracks since the beginning of auto racing. This will be just the
                        basic
                        > beginning of the project and I'll continue to add to it into the
                        future.
                        > Of course all the new tracks will still be added as well. Site
                        visitors
                        > will have an option to view just the active tracks, like they do
                        now, or
                        > to look at the entire database of historical info. This is
                        something
                        > I've wanted to do for a long time and I'm finally beginning to make
                        it
                        > happen. It's one of the most exciting projects I've ever engaged in
                        and
                        > I can't wait to get it on the Web.
                        >
                        > As for the trackchasers group, I'm really looking forward to
                        > concentrating more on the fun side of it again. I've done my "tour
                        of
                        > duty" and now it's time for me to just be one of the gang again.
                        I'll
                        > still contribute a lot through the web site and this forum, but I
                        have
                        > no plans to accept any official group positions that may or may not
                        be
                        > voted on in the future.
                        >
                        > I've been hearing from a number of trackchasers that competition is
                        > taking the fun out of the group. I've decided to do my part to take
                        > competition out of it and we'll see whether or not the fun
                        increases
                        > back to the level it was at several years ago. Let's give it a shot.
                        >
                        > Will
                        >
                      • BIGDADDO@aol.com
                        I m just a casual observer in this group & have only been to about 40 - 50 tracks but what Andy said below sounds remarkably similar like what I said about six
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 25, 2007
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                          I'm just a casual observer in this group & have only been to about 40 - 50
                          tracks but what Andy said below sounds remarkably similar like what I said about
                          six months ago.

                          Bob Servin

                          In a message dated 11/25/2007 11:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                          aritter@... writes:

                          Passion is a
                          good thing- but honestly this competition is no more important than
                          folding up a paper football and flicking it through your friends
                          fingers at recess in the 5th grade.





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                        • RTRYFBAR@AOL.COM
                          ... From: Andy Ritter To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:19 am Subject: [TrackChasers] Re: Let s give it
                          Message 12 of 27 , Nov 26, 2007
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                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Andy Ritter <aritter@...>
                            To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:19 am
                            Subject: [TrackChasers] Re: Let's give it a shot

                            <<I have been reading the various posts on the issue at hand.? I want to make sure this forum is used for everyone to express their opinion on the subject.>>

                            That's always good to hear...I would like to make a plea for everyone to offer their opinions, but people that offer their opinion to also try to make some sort of?realistic suggestion as to how to save the group, rules, rankings, or to eliminate them if that is what you want this group to look like...I don't see how the idyllic suggestons of "let's just have fun" or?posts consisting of?nothing more than?previously stated complaints, is a step towards a pragmatic solution..If Will does resign as stat keeper, who will take over the job, even if no one agrees to retire the rules and rankings?..Is the group going to go down in flames, still complaining about each other rather than attempting any positive changes?

                            The current rift between Allan and Will could finally mean the end of the group...But at least Allan made a proposal that he believes is in the best interest of the group...Will made his suggestion as how we should?Give It A Shot..Gordy made a suggestion to keep the status quo for a year and see if we can make things better...I first tried to broker a compromise between Allan and Will, then when Will decided to no longer keep any group stats according to TrackChaser rules, I offered my idea as to how to vote to eliminate the rules so as to truly give Will's idea A Shot, at least for a year and then we could reevaluate whether we want rankings

                            What good?are the complaints about this rule, or that group of people, without offering any ideas on how to change anything to makes things better?..If you ask me the people that offer actual suggestions, knowing?that not only?are the ideas going to be shot down, but the individuals themselves are going to be criticized as well, are far more?valuable to?the group than those that come out only to complain or criticize, or those that won't even try to help in any way

                            <<I will say it is a shame as Will has given his effort for a bunch of years with no compensation whatsoever, and having to put up with a lot of grief from the group.? I am surprised he put up with it this long, and dont blame him for stopping with the rankings.>>

                            Thank you for taking a public stand of support for Will...Whatever anyone's opinion of what direction is best for the group, Will does not deserve to have his character questioned...and more should be willing to come out publicly in support of him and what he has done as webmaster, stat keeper, and UNOFFICIAL (but accepted until now) commissioner

                            <<I dont know that Will elminating rankings will eliminate competitiveness. I also dont think it is fair to those who have followed the rules and abided by the groups rulings.>>

                            If we eliminated the rules to go along with it, I don't see how it wouldn't?at least greatly reduce?competitiveness...If there is no one keeping track of individual lists by a common standard, how can anyone truly compete?..It may or may not increase the sharing of information, but why shoot down the idea without even giving it a try...The group as is worked well for over a decade, in the last several years it has not worked nearly as well...Doesn't that suggest we try something different?

                            I have gone to 55 new tracks this year, and 50 of them I have gone with at least one other and sometimes several TrackChasers...Of the five new tracks?that I went to alone, four of them I sat with at least one other?TrackChaser...That's 54 of 55...All of those times spent with my TrackChasing friends?have been fun...I can't figure out why some prefer to head to new tracks in secret?with the hope that they see no other members of the group,?and I guarantee?that's not the way it was before competition became more important than friendship...I think that Andy, being removed from traveling to any new tracks this year, has an distorted view of the reality out there at the actual tracks...Those of us that have always been friends at the races, remain friends at the races...and will remain so if there were no more rules...Yesterday at Quic Raceway Pam and I joined Gordy, Mike, and Paul Weisel; plus Rick Schneider and Rusty Curry...Brian Hickey's wife brought us all brownies as he was in South Carolina...It was a great afternoon...Those that do their TrackChasing almost solely via the internet forum don't really know what it's like...The friendships among the real race fans remain strong

                            Regarding being fair to those that have followed the rules, basically everybody has followed the rules and abided by the rulings because they didn't have a choice...Is it fair for Will or one of the two or three others that work hard for the group to worry about all those that contrbute little to making the group work or improve?

                            <<If that page gets taken down and lost forever- so be it as I know what I
                            accomplished, and that is good enough for me.>>

                            Exactly.? Isn't that what I'm trying to say regarding getting rid of rules and rankings?..If knowing what you (and I mean everyone, not anyone specifically)?accomplished is good enough, then why shouldn't you be in favor?of keeping the group social and?as a way to contribute to racing and share information,?rather than a compeition to be?won or lost?..I love racing, traveling, and seeing new tracks enough that things won't change that much for me...Let's, as Will suggested,?Give It A Shot and let those that love racing remain, and those that are too caught up in championships find another arena to stir their competitive juices.

                            Guy Smith

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                          • RTRYFBAR@AOL.COM
                            TrackChasers: As I am off from work today, I have been in email contact with various people from the group attempting to work out something that will be
                            Message 13 of 27 , Nov 26, 2007
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                              TrackChasers:

                              As I am off from work today, I have been in email contact with various people from the group attempting to work out something that will be acceptable to most and move the group back toward the right direction without the changes being so drastic...Hopefully this would give everyone some of what they want, while also requiring some compromise from everyone...Here is what we came up with..It's simple, but that may be best

                              Compromise Attempt Number Two

                              Will would continue to update the TrackChaser part of the website until the end of the year as he has already said he plans to do

                              If Allan's proposal passes, Will would make any changes that any individual TrackChasers would request be made to their lists

                              Will would label the rankings as?Complete as of December 31, 2007, and leave them on the website

                              The current rules, plus or minus Allan's proposal on the table, would remain in place

                              At the end of 2008, TrackChasers that wanted to continue to have their up-to-date lists, according to the rules in place?displayed, would send their 2008 additions to Will, and he would update the site at the end of the year

                              Will will no longer have the burden of making any rulings on individual track countability?which appears to be what he wants

                              Updating the rankings only at the end of the year will serve several purposes...First and foremost?besides relieving?Will of having to make any countability rulings, it will also relieve Will of having to update things every week or couple of weeks so he can focus on his upcoming?more important contribution to auto racing...Secondly, we are hoping that with only an annual update, it will dial back the competitive nature of those that take it too seriously, at least to a reasonable level...Thirdly, it keeps the rules and rankings in place for those that would think we should not give that part of TrackChasers up entirely...It returns things to the way it was when I was statistician, before the website, when the lists were only updated and distributed once per year and the group was much friendlier and more cooperative

                              I realize there are those that love the immediate access to updated information...But again, we are looking at a practical compromise...If Will is not going to continue with the status quo, and I believe he is not, it is unlikely anyone else would do so...What we have now may be preferable to some, but it does not appear to be an option...Please consider the above option

                              While we recognize that this attempt at compromise mainly hinges on Will, is there?ANYONE out there that could live with this compromise without shooting it down untried?..If not, I'm kind of out of ideas at this point

                              Guy Smith



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                            • RPMGORDY@aol.com
                              Guy, When I suggested we keep the status quo for one more year, it was in the hope that we could get more input from other members since there appeared to be
                              Message 14 of 27 , Nov 26, 2007
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                                Guy,

                                When I suggested we keep the status quo for one more year, it was in
                                the hope that we could get more input from other members since there appeared
                                to be some interest in finally addressing the issues. As you can see, it's
                                just been the usual suspects that have commented, as no one really cares one way
                                or the other. With that in mind, I back your compromise.

                                Will,

                                I hope you decide to keep the site active, and I hope I will always be
                                able to use it as a place to keep my list. I'm proud I've what I've seen and
                                done, and am grateful that you provide a place for the world to peruse it if
                                they so choose. I've always maintained that it's gatherings like we had in
                                Rhode Island that fuel my passion for the hobby, and feel sorry for those that
                                place any ranking or competition above such. Getting stuck in Thanksgiving
                                traffic with friends makes the journey easier to travail. We shared much more
                                than brownies yesterday. (Thanks, Christine!)

                                Andy,

                                It's obvious you have your priorities in order. If you have lost the
                                desire, it might be best if you relinquish the moderator title. Please don't
                                think that I'm calling for such. I'm not. I just don't want you to think you
                                have to remain because you think you are obligated to stay. You're not. It was
                                never personal between us, and if you decide to go I thank you for time
                                served.

                                Randy,

                                As the person that truly has seen more tracks than anyone often says,
                                "whatever".

                                Gordy



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                              • Bruce Eckel
                                To all the group: The following is my opinion and my opinion only. I had read with both interest and dismay the deluge of messages passed back and forth
                                Message 15 of 27 , Nov 26, 2007
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                                  To all the group:





                                  The following is my opinion and my opinion only. I had read
                                  with both interest and dismay the deluge of messages passed back and forth
                                  across this forum. I felt at times things indeed went over the top or over
                                  the line on some things written. I think in the future that everyone
                                  including myself should read their posting and if possible have someone else
                                  read it before they send something that they may regret. I know I was not
                                  involved personally in the recent postings and some may say that it is easy
                                  for me to Monday morning quarterback but I have tried to practice what I
                                  preach. I again implore everyone of us to not send something while our
                                  emotions are frayed, our feelings are hurt or such and maybe regret it
                                  later.



                                  Of the three main participants in the initial postings I
                                  consider each one of you good friends. It troubles me to see you three at
                                  each other throats. As you know Pat and I have spent the most time out of
                                  the three with Allan and Nancy Brown on various combination racing and sight
                                  seeing trips and I must say I have enjoyed every minute of those adventures.
                                  Allan is an honorable man and has a great love for the sport of auto racing.
                                  I respect him greatly. I believe Allan's postings are not meant to be
                                  devious but only trying to improve on his love of the sport and this group.
                                  Will's contributions to the sport of auto racing and especially this group
                                  and the web site are appreciated by me more than he can ever imagine. I
                                  believe all of Will's decisions were made with much thought put into them
                                  before deciding on doing anything. I enjoy Will's wit and company whenever
                                  we are able to team up on a trackchasing venture. I hope he will reconsider
                                  and keep the web site intact with some modifications to ease the burden on
                                  him. Roland has a passion for this sport also and I truly enjoy his updates
                                  on his trackchasing adventures. He wears his emotions on his sleeve and
                                  sometimes I believe he does what the old saying says, fires, loads and then
                                  aims. Roland is a very loyal friend and it shows in his postings. I enjoy
                                  his perspective of things which come from his European heritage.



                                  Now to address the issues brought to us by Guy Smith. To me Guy
                                  is very level headed and does a great service by acting as a mediator. He
                                  is another person who cares deeply about auto racing and works to try to
                                  make improvements on it whenever possible. I personally agree with all the
                                  compromise points made below by Guy and I could live with these things as
                                  stated. I personally enjoy looking at the site to see where people have
                                  been and what their counts are. The state rankings are another one of my
                                  favorites but if the above things will not be updated regularly then I can
                                  live with looking at it when it has been updated at the end of the year. I
                                  would hate to lose the opportunity to browse all the different categories to
                                  see where I stand in comparison to my fellow trackchasers and more
                                  importantly my friends.

                                  As Gordy mentioned in a recent posting how about the opinions of
                                  the other 30 + trackchasers out there. Your feelings and opinions are
                                  welcomed and appreciated. Even if some of you don't care one way or other
                                  let us know that also. That is what this forum is for, to express our
                                  opinions in an open way.









                                  Bruce Eckel







                                  _____

                                  From: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of RTRYFBAR@...
                                  Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 3:52 PM
                                  To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com; Roland.VandenEynde@...
                                  Subject: [TrackChasers] Compromise Attempt Number Two




                                  TrackChasers:

                                  As I am off from work today, I have been in email contact with various
                                  people from the group attempting to work out something that will be
                                  acceptable to most and move the group back toward the right direction
                                  without the changes being so drastic...Hopefully this would give everyone
                                  some of what they want, while also requiring some compromise from
                                  everyone...Here is what we came up with..It's simple, but that may be best

                                  Compromise Attempt Number Two

                                  Will would continue to update the TrackChaser part of the website until the
                                  end of the year as he has already said he plans to do

                                  If Allan's proposal passes, Will would make any changes that any individual
                                  TrackChasers would request be made to their lists

                                  Will would label the rankings as?Complete as of December 31, 2007, and leave
                                  them on the website

                                  The current rules, plus or minus Allan's proposal on the table, would remain
                                  in place

                                  At the end of 2008, TrackChasers that wanted to continue to have their
                                  up-to-date lists, according to the rules in place?displayed, would send
                                  their 2008 additions to Will, and he would update the site at the end of the
                                  year

                                  Will will no longer have the burden of making any rulings on individual
                                  track countability?which appears to be what he wants

                                  Updating the rankings only at the end of the year will serve several
                                  purposes...First and foremost?besides relieving?Will of having to make any
                                  countability rulings, it will also relieve Will of having to update things
                                  every week or couple of weeks so he can focus on his upcoming?more important
                                  contribution to auto racing...Secondly, we are hoping that with only an
                                  annual update, it will dial back the competitive nature of those that take
                                  it too seriously, at least to a reasonable level...Thirdly, it keeps the
                                  rules and rankings in place for those that would think we should not give
                                  that part of TrackChasers up entirely...It returns things to the way it was
                                  when I was statistician, before the website, when the lists were only
                                  updated and distributed once per year and the group was much friendlier and
                                  more cooperative

                                  I realize there are those that love the immediate access to updated
                                  information...But again, we are looking at a practical compromise...If Will
                                  is not going to continue with the status quo, and I believe he is not, it is
                                  unlikely anyone else would do so...What we have now may be preferable to
                                  some, but it does not appear to be an option...Please consider the above
                                  option

                                  While we recognize that this attempt at compromise mainly hinges on Will, is
                                  there?ANYONE out there that could live with this compromise without shooting
                                  it down untried?..If not, I'm kind of out of ideas at this point

                                  Guy Smith

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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Andy Ritter
                                  I have no voting power, but I am fine with Will updating the rankings once a year. If my prior post was unclear I AM NOT opposed to the competitive aspect of
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Nov 26, 2007
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                                    I have no voting power, but I am fine with Will updating the rankings
                                    once a year.

                                    If my prior post was unclear I AM NOT opposed to the competitive
                                    aspect of this hobby. I think the rankings in all categories add a
                                    level of fun to the hobby. Granted some people are more concerned
                                    with rankings than others, but eliminating rankings is not what I
                                    would like to see happen.

                                    When I said I do not think eliminating rankings would reduce
                                    competitiveness I meant that people will approach this hobby as they
                                    see fit, and if someone wants to take the rankings seriously or
                                    really press for a certain goal they should be able to. If someone
                                    else just wants to approach things a different way- that is fine as
                                    well. That is the great thing about trackchasing- everyone can
                                    decide when where and how often to trackchase for themselves,
                                    indepdent of what others are doing. There is nothing wrong with
                                    keeping rankings and trying to improve your position in them. Just
                                    as there is nothing wrong with someone not really being concerned
                                    with rankings and choosing to attend only dirt ovals or tracks in an
                                    area that they may not climb the rankings in, etc. I also dont see
                                    too many people sharing track information in the future if they
                                    already choose not to now, just because there is no ranking system.
                                    Heck just by virtue of having a list there is some competitiveness as
                                    I am sure even if we stop officially counting everyone will know how
                                    many tracks they have. By simply listing them with a number next to
                                    them there is some competitive aspect involved, and there is nothing
                                    wrong with that. I do agree that going to tracks with others is
                                    indeed one of the funnest parts- usually more fun than the actual
                                    new track experience.

                                    As for my own situation- it is my own as I noted. My priorities have
                                    simply changed. I dont see as much benefit to the sacrifice and cost
                                    involved in pursuing this hobby as I once did. I do however know
                                    that it can be rewarding and a hell of a lot of fun. I certainly
                                    dont begrudge anyone who still enjoys it and puts all their effort
                                    into trackchasing. As I said maybe things will change, I just know
                                    that sitting on the sidelines for a year I see it is not really a
                                    priority for me.

                                    I still have an interest in seeing that the group prosper. I am just
                                    tired of all the fighting. Guy mentioned proposing solutions, and I
                                    agree that is needed, I guess I just dont know what to suggest at
                                    this point.

                                    Thanks

                                    Keep it fun!

                                    Andy Ritter


                                    --- In TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com, RTRYFBAR@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > TrackChasers:
                                    >
                                    > As I am off from work today, I have been in email contact with
                                    various people from the group attempting to work out something that
                                    will be acceptable to most and move the group back toward the right
                                    direction without the changes being so drastic...Hopefully this would
                                    give everyone some of what they want, while also requiring some
                                    compromise from everyone...Here is what we came up with..It's simple,
                                    but that may be best
                                    >
                                    > Compromise Attempt Number Two
                                    >
                                    > Will would continue to update the TrackChaser part of the website
                                    until the end of the year as he has already said he plans to do
                                    >
                                    > If Allan's proposal passes, Will would make any changes that any
                                    individual TrackChasers would request be made to their lists
                                    >
                                    > Will would label the rankings as?Complete as of December 31, 2007,
                                    and leave them on the website
                                    >
                                    > The current rules, plus or minus Allan's proposal on the table,
                                    would remain in place
                                    >
                                    > At the end of 2008, TrackChasers that wanted to continue to have
                                    their up-to-date lists, according to the rules in place?displayed,
                                    would send their 2008 additions to Will, and he would update the site
                                    at the end of the year
                                    >
                                    > Will will no longer have the burden of making any rulings on
                                    individual track countability?which appears to be what he wants
                                    >
                                    > Updating the rankings only at the end of the year will serve
                                    several purposes...First and foremost?besides relieving?Will of
                                    having to make any countability rulings, it will also relieve Will of
                                    having to update things every week or couple of weeks so he can focus
                                    on his upcoming?more important contribution to auto
                                    racing...Secondly, we are hoping that with only an annual update, it
                                    will dial back the competitive nature of those that take it too
                                    seriously, at least to a reasonable level...Thirdly, it keeps the
                                    rules and rankings in place for those that would think we should not
                                    give that part of TrackChasers up entirely...It returns things to the
                                    way it was when I was statistician, before the website, when the
                                    lists were only updated and distributed once per year and the group
                                    was much friendlier and more cooperative
                                    >
                                    > I realize there are those that love the immediate access to updated
                                    information...But again, we are looking at a practical
                                    compromise...If Will is not going to continue with the status quo,
                                    and I believe he is not, it is unlikely anyone else would do
                                    so...What we have now may be preferable to some, but it does not
                                    appear to be an option...Please consider the above option
                                    >
                                    > While we recognize that this attempt at compromise mainly hinges on
                                    Will, is there?ANYONE out there that could live with this compromise
                                    without shooting it down untried?..If not, I'm kind of out of ideas
                                    at this point
                                    >
                                    > Guy Smith
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ______________________________________________________________________
                                    __
                                    > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
                                    http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?
                                    ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Allan Brown
                                    Guy, I agree with your latest suggestion. Maybe it would be best to back off for a year. Let s see if it helps. I also agree it was a lot more fun when we only
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Nov 27, 2007
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                                      Guy, I agree with your latest suggestion. Maybe it would be best to back off for a year. Let's see if it helps. I also agree it was a lot more fun when we only updated once a year. People didn't go overboard trying to get ahead of someone else.

                                      Nancy read your suggestion, she approves of it for the most part, but she's doesn't see why we need all of the those sub-lists. I tried to convince her that to some members of the group is was important. Gordy, you'll love her response. "Whatever".

                                      Randy, Thank you for your generous offer to continue the list, but I would respectully decline your offer. I think this group needs to back off from being so over-competitive, and get back to the basics. We are just race fans who enjoy watching races at different venues and hopefully being with friends when we do.

                                      Allan & Nancy

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Will White
                                      Roland is no longer a member of this forum but wanted to respond to the group on Guy s second idea, so I am forwarding this as afavor to him. --Will ... Guy, I
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Nov 27, 2007
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                                        Roland is no longer a member of this forum but wanted to respond to the
                                        group on Guy's second idea, so I am forwarding this as afavor to him.
                                        --Will

                                        ----------------------------------------------

                                        Guy,

                                        I appreciate your mediation, but there is one little detail that bothers
                                        me. Did anybody ask Will what he thinks about it? In my mind it's clear
                                        he has taken a decision, one I don't really like, but one I can fully
                                        understand. He has had to endure a lot and I promised him to abide by
                                        any decision he should take. I had no other choice than to stop my
                                        involvement for three reasons:

                                        *
                                        because I'm completely fed up with all this infighting between
                                        grown up men
                                        *
                                        it saddens me that this has led Will to wanting to mutilate his
                                        fine work and a TrackChaser section without stats (or with stats updated
                                        once a year) takes away my fun and interest even more
                                        *
                                        I don't want to put pressure on Will to change his mind and
                                        afterwards we all go on blasting him.

                                        Me to would have preferred Will to take another decision. Me to would
                                        have preferred Allan to withdraw his proposal, for which I will not
                                        vote, because I deem it illegal (nobody seems to support Will on that
                                        anymore), it's got a massive hidden agenda and also because the friendly
                                        man I am doesn't want to be responsible for this poor old Allan having
                                        to fork out huge amounts of cash to send me a return envelope.

                                        It's with more than sadness that my only conclusion can be that I have
                                        to stop my 'trackchasing career' on the spot. I enjoyed and still enjoy
                                        the hobby and it's been a pleasure to have been to tracks with people
                                        sharing the same passion. But I think we must respect Will's decision.
                                        Therefore, I do no longer wish to contribute to this discussion. I will
                                        only come back on my decision to retire my track list if Will, without
                                        any pressure from outside, adheres in person to an honourable and
                                        working solution.

                                        As I'm no longer a member of it, I would very much appreciate it if you
                                        would put this message on the list serve. Thanks in advance.


                                        Roland

                                        ________________________________

                                        From: rtryfbar@... [mailto:rtryfbar@...]
                                        Sent: 26 November 2007 21:52
                                        To: TrackChasers@yahoogroups.com; Vanden Eynde Roland
                                        Subject: Compromise Attempt Number Two


                                        TrackChasers:

                                        As I am off from work today, I have been in email contact with various
                                        people from the group attempting to work out something that will be
                                        acceptable to most and move the group back toward the right direction
                                        without the changes being so drastic...Hopefully this would give
                                        everyone some of what they want, while also requiring some compromise
                                        from everyone...Here is what we came up with..It's simple, but that may
                                        be best

                                        Compromise Attempt Number Two

                                        Will would continue to update the TrackChaser part of the website until
                                        the end of the year as he has already said he plans to do

                                        If Allan's proposal passes, Will would make any changes that any
                                        individual TrackChasers would request be made to their lists

                                        Will would label the rankings as Complete as of December 31, 2007, and
                                        leave them on the website

                                        The current rules, plus or minus Allan's proposal on the table, would
                                        remain in place

                                        At the end of 2008, TrackChasers that wanted to continue to have their
                                        up-to-date lists, according to the rules in place displayed, would send
                                        their 2008 additions to Will, and he would update the site at the end of
                                        the year

                                        Will will no longer have the burden of making any rulings on individual
                                        track countability which appears to be what he wants

                                        Updating the rankings only at the end of the year will serve several
                                        purposes...First and foremost besides relieving Will of having to make
                                        any countability rulings, it will also relieve Will of having to update
                                        things every week or couple of weeks so he can focus on his upcoming
                                        more important contribution to auto racing...Secondly, we are hoping
                                        that with only an annual update, it will dial back the competitive
                                        nature of those that take it too seriously, at least to a reasonable
                                        level...Thirdly, it keeps the rules and rankings in place for those that
                                        would think we should not give that part of TrackChasers up
                                        entirely...It returns things to the way it was when I was statistician,
                                        before the website, when the lists were only updated and distributed
                                        once per year and the group was much friendlier and more cooperative

                                        I realize there are those that love the immediate access to updated
                                        information...But again, we are looking at a practical compromise...If
                                        Will is not going to continue with the status quo, and I believe he is
                                        not, it is unlikely anyone else would do so...What we have now may be
                                        preferable to some, but it does not appear to be an option...Please
                                        consider the above option

                                        While we recognize that this attempt at compromise mainly hinges on
                                        Will, is there ANYONE out there that could live with this compromise
                                        without shooting it down untried?..If not, I'm kind of out of ideas at
                                        this point

                                        Guy Smith
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