Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: TBH vs. Foundationless

Expand Messages
  • Peter
    ... might have ... Yea, I guess, or felt her before moving. I do not understand the arguments as far as shape goes. In nature there was no classical bee
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      > So if you had put rubber bands around your shirt sleeve cuffs you
      might have
      > prevented that one too?
      > This is getting interesting !
      > Jim Payne

      Yea, I guess, or felt her before moving.

      I do not understand the arguments as far as shape goes. In nature
      there was no 'classical' bee colony shape, when left to their own
      devices they occupy any cavity where the volume is deemed sufficient.

      In all the pictures of different cut-outs I've researched almost none
      of them have attachments other than at the top no matter what the
      cavity shape.

      My opinion is that the 'honey-comb' shape of the individual cells are
      the only constant required by the bees.

      I used the theory that as long as the length of the top bar was longer
      than the depth that they could build it out to that it is more than
      strong enough. They also seem to naturally like bee-space on the three
      sides that are not the top attachment.

      IMHO lol

      peter
    • Scot McPherson
      ... No offense, but Horse manure. People become used to the gentleness of their hives in spring (especially newly installed packages/nucs) and don t realize
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        >>Your bees have regressed. Re-queen from good stock ASAP

        No offense, but Horse manure. People become used to the gentleness of their
        hives in spring (especially newly installed packages/nucs) and don't realize
        that they do become more defensive as they mature. A new queen isn't going
        to fix this, it's a matter of population. Just learn to move with care, with
        purpose and not be clumsy. Yes there is such a thing as hot bees, but you'll
        know hot bees when you run into them. A hive that is booming strong, and you
        get stung a couple of times is NOT HOT.

        If you have a hot hive, LOTS of bees will chase you as you leave. A normal
        hive will follow you a few yards with a few bees. As you become more
        experienced, more confident, and smoother in your operations, even
        extra-defensive bees will calm down for you...



        Scot McPherson
        McPherson Family Farms
        Davenport, IA
      • Scot McPherson
        ... In Nature, combs are not removed from colonies for human observation. Since we need to remove the combs we need to make sure we can do this without causing
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          >>I do not understand the arguments as far as shape goes. In nature
          >>there was no 'classical' bee colony shape, when left to their own
          >>devices they occupy any cavity where the volume is deemed sufficient.


          In Nature, combs are not removed from colonies for human observation. Since
          we need to remove the combs we need to make sure we can do this without
          causing problems. One way is with frames like the hoffman frames used in
          Langstroth hives. The other way is to use a top bar withteh comb suspended
          from it. In nature when bees suspend comb from a branch or otherwise are
          forced to build a free hanging comb, it is built in a caternary curve. Since
          in a top bar hive we are making them do free hanging comb, we want to get as
          close to this shape as we can, but do it easily for us. A trapezoid is the
          easiest way to achieve this, and furthermore, not just any trapezoid, one to
          specific dimensions to emulate with straight lines as close to the caternary
          curve as you can. You will still get attachments, but only an inch or two on
          each side as oppsed to a whole structure of support attachments. This is
          normal when the bees are building fresh comb which is soft and weak. Once
          the wax has seasoned a little, and you remove the attachments, they usually
          don't need to re-attach them. Perhaps once or twice they might reattach is
          it is structurally necessary for thje comb to hold, but then they stop
          because it becomes no longer necessary. Then you have a free hanging comb.
          On my beewiki which is currently out of order, I am sorry, I wrote quite a
          long dissertation on why I chose the shaope of hive I did. I have summarized
          it above, but the longer explanation really points out the engineering
          principles behind it. However, a trapezoid is more structurally sound for
          free hanging comb which is what comb is in a top bar hive.

          Scot McPherson
          McPherson Family Farms
          Davenport, IA
        • P.H. Rankin Hansen
          Scot, I hate to burst your bubble, but in my experience, the size of the family has no influence on their aggressiveness. If the bees are aggressive, change
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Scot, I hate to burst your bubble, but in my experience, the size of the
            family has no influence on their aggressiveness.

            If the bees are aggressive, change the queen. Period!

            In the family becomes aggressive, then the queen was not good enough. It
            usually takes a few generations of home bred queens to regress that far,
            if the starting point was good.

            I assume that we are talking about package bees. If a package turns
            aggressive within a few months, then it is most likely that the queen
            was shipped with bees that were offspring from another queen. As the
            family grows, those original bees are being replaced with fresh bees
            that are offspring of the queen, and they may not be as gentle as the
            original bees. In other words; the gentle bees are slowly being replaced
            with more aggressive bees, which can easily be misinterpreted as if the
            bees turn increasingly aggressive because the family grows.

            In other words: find another place to buy a new queen to replace the
            inferior queen shipped with the package.

            Ping.

            Scot McPherson skrev:
            >>> Your bees have regressed. Re-queen from good stock ASAP
            >>>
            >
            > No offense, but Horse manure. People become used to the gentleness of their
            > hives in spring (especially newly installed packages/nucs) and don't realize
            > that they do become more defensive as they mature. A new queen isn't going
            > to fix this, it's a matter of population. Just learn to move with care, with
            > purpose and not be clumsy. Yes there is such a thing as hot bees, but you'll
            > know hot bees when you run into them. A hive that is booming strong, and you
            > get stung a couple of times is NOT HOT.
            >
            > If you have a hot hive, LOTS of bees will chase you as you leave. A normal
            > hive will follow you a few yards with a few bees. As you become more
            > experienced, more confident, and smoother in your operations, even
            > extra-defensive bees will calm down for you...
            >
            >
            >

            --
            venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H

            P.H. Rankin Hansen
            Stjærvej 15, Storring
            DK-8464 Galten
            Danmark

            (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611
          • Scot McPherson
            I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree. You are talking aggressive bees, I am not. I am talking about normal behavior bees, and bees will always defend
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

              You are talking aggressive bees, I am not. I am talking about normal
              behavior bees, and bees will always defend themselves if something makes
              them want to defend. That is what bees do.

              The behavior of the beekeeper is just as important in determining how the
              bees will behave as the source queen. Even very hot bees can be kept by a
              beekeeper who can move very smoothly.

              Size of the family also has great influence. A weak cluster is no where near
              as likely to defend as a large booming colony. This has been demonstrated
              over 100's of years of beekeeping, and is a simple matter of economics.

              Scot McPherson
              McPherson Family Farms
              Davenport, IA

              -----Original Message-----
              From: TopHive@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TopHive@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              P.H. Rankin Hansen
              Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 2:14 PM
              To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless

              Scot, I hate to burst your bubble, but in my experience, the size of the
              family has no influence on their aggressiveness.

              If the bees are aggressive, change the queen. Period!

              In the family becomes aggressive, then the queen was not good enough. It
              usually takes a few generations of home bred queens to regress that far,
              if the starting point was good.

              I assume that we are talking about package bees. If a package turns
              aggressive within a few months, then it is most likely that the queen
              was shipped with bees that were offspring from another queen. As the
              family grows, those original bees are being replaced with fresh bees
              that are offspring of the queen, and they may not be as gentle as the
              original bees. In other words; the gentle bees are slowly being replaced
              with more aggressive bees, which can easily be misinterpreted as if the
              bees turn increasingly aggressive because the family grows.

              In other words: find another place to buy a new queen to replace the
              inferior queen shipped with the package.

              Ping.

              Scot McPherson skrev:
              >>> Your bees have regressed. Re-queen from good stock ASAP
              >>>
              >
              > No offense, but Horse manure. People become used to the gentleness of
              their
              > hives in spring (especially newly installed packages/nucs) and don't
              realize
              > that they do become more defensive as they mature. A new queen isn't going
              > to fix this, it's a matter of population. Just learn to move with care,
              with
              > purpose and not be clumsy. Yes there is such a thing as hot bees, but
              you'll
              > know hot bees when you run into them. A hive that is booming strong, and
              you
              > get stung a couple of times is NOT HOT.
              >
              > If you have a hot hive, LOTS of bees will chase you as you leave. A normal
              > hive will follow you a few yards with a few bees. As you become more
              > experienced, more confident, and smoother in your operations, even
              > extra-defensive bees will calm down for you...
              >
              >
              >

              --
              venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H

              P.H. Rankin Hansen
              Stjærvej 15, Storring
              DK-8464 Galten
              Danmark

              (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611




              The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • stangardens
              colonys will will sting more when they re larger. i don t think all that catenary curve mumbo jumbo makes much differance when you re dealing with a hive up to
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 15, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                colonys will will sting more when they're larger.
                i don't think all that catenary curve mumbo jumbo makes much
                differance when you're dealing with a hive up to ten inches deep.
                yes comb starts out curved but the bees are plenty happy to keep going
                and fill more space.
                at this point in my career i'm interested in healthy, happy bees and
                like the bees am getting less concerned with the shape of a box.
                have fun!
                stan in somerset
              • Scot McPherson
                Fill more space yes, but then it needs to be supported. Bees build comb in walls with combs many feet in vertical length, but it is attached to the structure
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 15, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Fill more space yes, but then it needs to be supported. Bees build comb in
                  walls with combs many feet in vertical length, but it is attached to the
                  structure all up and down the thing, and the combs are criss crossed all
                  over the place.

                  We are talking about manageable hives with moveable combs, not a bee tree.

                  It's a matter of mechanical stresses, that's all...nothing else.



                  Scot McPherson
                  McPherson Family Farms
                  Davenport, IA

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: TopHive@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TopHive@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  stangardens
                  Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:16 AM
                  To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless

                  colonys will will sting more when they're larger.
                  i don't think all that catenary curve mumbo jumbo makes much
                  differance when you're dealing with a hive up to ten inches deep.
                  yes comb starts out curved but the bees are plenty happy to keep going
                  and fill more space.
                  at this point in my career i'm interested in healthy, happy bees and
                  like the bees am getting less concerned with the shape of a box.
                  have fun!
                  stan in somerset



                  The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive

                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Carolyn Chaney
                  Thanks, Scot. I m very happy with my bees and feel sure that they are quite normal. Over the season, as they have more brood, they do become more protective,
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 15, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks, Scot. I'm very happy with my bees and feel sure that they
                    are quite normal. Over the season, as they have more brood, they do
                    become more protective, but in my bee suit I feel quite secure and so
                    it is easy to work my hives.

                    Carolyn

                    On Jul 14, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Scot McPherson wrote:

                    > >>Your bees have regressed. Re-queen from good stock ASAP
                    >
                    > No offense, but Horse manure. People become used to the gentleness
                    > of their
                    > hives in spring (especially newly installed packages/nucs) and
                    > don't realize
                    > that they do become more defensive as they mature. A new queen
                    > isn't going
                    > to fix this, it's a matter of population. Just learn to move with
                    > care, with
                    > purpose and not be clumsy. Yes there is such a thing as hot bees,
                    > but you'll
                    > know hot bees when you run into them. A hive that is booming
                    > strong, and you
                    > get stung a couple of times is NOT HOT.
                    >
                    > If you have a hot hive, LOTS of bees will chase you as you leave. A
                    > normal
                    > hive will follow you a few yards with a few bees. As you become more
                    > experienced, more confident, and smoother in your operations, even
                    > extra-defensive bees will calm down for you...
                    >
                    > Scot McPherson
                    > McPherson Family Farms
                    > Davenport, IA
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    Carolyn Chaney
                    cchaney@...

                    > "Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious
                    > life?"
                    > --Mary Oliver
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • P.H. Rankin Hansen
                    ... FYI: I have some very large hives that I usually work in a t-shirt. Having to use protective gear, other than a hat to keep them out of my hair, is not
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 16, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Carolyn Chaney skrev:
                      > Thanks, Scot. I'm very happy with my bees and feel sure that they
                      > are quite normal. Over the season, as they have more brood, they do
                      > become more protective, but in my bee suit I feel quite secure and so
                      > it is easy to work my hives.
                      >
                      FYI: I have some very large hives that I usually work in a t-shirt.
                      Having to use protective gear, other than a hat to keep them out of my
                      hair, is not acceptable to me. I only use a little smoke and take care
                      not to move abruptly. I usually get stung only when I screw up and mash
                      a bee - two-three times during a season.

                      The only time I have to wear protective gear, is when the hives have
                      been robbed, or when I harvest the honey - which pretty much amounts to
                      the robbery ;o).

                      But then again, I use bees that are gentle and I replace queens that
                      breed aggressive bees with queens from well reputed queen breeders. Bees
                      that behave as you and Scot have described, are generally not accepted
                      by experienced beekeepers here in Denmark, and I would have been given a
                      refund (and a new queen) from my preferred queen breeder.

                      Ping.

                      --
                      venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H

                      P.H. Rankin Hansen
                      Stjærvej 15, Storring
                      DK-8464 Galten
                      Danmark

                      (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611
                    • Scot Mc Pherson
                      Interesting. I also only work in a tshirt. I have been stung 2 times this entire year and I currently have 275 strong active colonies. I still stick to what I
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 16, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Interesting. I also only work in a tshirt. I have been stung 2 times
                        this entire year and I currently have 275 strong active colonies. I
                        still stick to what I said, and I think you are misunderstanding this
                        conversation. I am not advocating HOT bees.


                        Scot

                        On 7/16/07, P.H. Rankin Hansen <ping@...> wrote:
                        > Carolyn Chaney skrev:
                        > > Thanks, Scot. I'm very happy with my bees and feel sure that they
                        > > are quite normal. Over the season, as they have more brood, they do
                        > > become more protective, but in my bee suit I feel quite secure and so
                        > > it is easy to work my hives.
                        > >
                        > FYI: I have some very large hives that I usually work in a t-shirt.
                        > Having to use protective gear, other than a hat to keep them out of my
                        > hair, is not acceptable to me. I only use a little smoke and take care
                        > not to move abruptly. I usually get stung only when I screw up and mash
                        > a bee - two-three times during a season.
                        >
                        > The only time I have to wear protective gear, is when the hives have
                        > been robbed, or when I harvest the honey - which pretty much amounts to
                        > the robbery ;o).
                        >
                        > But then again, I use bees that are gentle and I replace queens that
                        > breed aggressive bees with queens from well reputed queen breeders. Bees
                        > that behave as you and Scot have described, are generally not accepted
                        > by experienced beekeepers here in Denmark, and I would have been given a
                        > refund (and a new queen) from my preferred queen breeder.
                        >
                        > Ping.
                        >
                        > --
                        > venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H
                        >
                        > P.H. Rankin Hansen
                        > Stjærvej 15, Storring
                        > DK-8464 Galten
                        > Danmark
                        >
                        > (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        --
                        Scot McPherson
                        McPherson Family Farms
                      • P.H. Rankin Hansen
                        ... As I said - when I screw up. Says more about me than about my bees ;o) 275 colonies is a lot more than I d ever want to have. I think my personal limit
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 16, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Scot Mc Pherson wrote:
                          > Interesting. I also only work in a tshirt. I have been stung 2 times
                          > this entire year and I currently have 275 strong active colonies. I
                          > still stick to what I said, and I think you are misunderstanding this
                          > conversation. I am not advocating HOT bees.
                          >
                          As I said - when I screw up. Says more about me than about my bees ;o)

                          275 colonies is a lot more than I'd ever want to have. I think my
                          personal limit would be about 50. If I had more hives than that, I think
                          I'd loose most of the enjoyment that I get from messing with my bees.
                          The important part, for me, is the relaxation. Not that I haven't
                          considered going commercial, but I don't think that is the right choice
                          for me. Sure, I'd like to be able to handle more pollinating, but ...

                          When I work my bees, I relax totally - sort of like meditation. Empty my
                          mind, control my movements, my breath. Very zen-like ;o) Which is why I
                          don't accept feisty bees.

                          Enjoy your bees - I certainly enjoy mine

                          Ping.

                          --
                          venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H

                          P.H. Rankin Hansen
                          Stjærvej 15, Storring
                          DK-8464 Galten
                          Danmark

                          (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611
                        • David Croteau
                          Thanks Jim, just ordered the router & BITS, $9.99 each. Dave -- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, Jim and Recca Payne ... time would ... a chamfer ... just ...
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 23, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks Jim, just ordered the router & BITS, $9.99 each.
                            Dave

                            -- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Jim and Recca Payne"
                            <jimandrebeccan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > A tool you might wish to invest in if you want to do several over
                            time would
                            > be a trim router.
                            > You can get one for under $20 at Homier.com.
                            > Couple it up with a few special bits like a spiral cutting bit and
                            a chamfer
                            > bit and possibly a 45 degree angle bit and you should be able to do
                            just
                            > about anything you want. Granted this particular one is not heavy
                            commercial
                            > duty but it will get the job done for casual use.
                            >
                            > Jim Payne
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "kmdaven" <kmdaven@...>
                            > To: <TopHive@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:39 PM
                            > Subject: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless
                            >
                            >
                            > > Scot, thanks for the (fast!) input. The guy who built my Top Bar
                            > > Hives (we don't have a table saw so couldn't do those angles)
                            insists
                            > > it would be soooo much easier to build the BOXES like the
                            Langstroth
                            > > hives. But you say it's easier to build a TBH? The only negative I
                            > > see is that I'd still have to buy frames. Surely those are
                            difficult
                            > > to build from scrap.
                            > >
                            > > Kristen
                            > >
                            > > --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Scot McPherson" <scot.mcpherson@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > It is cheaper and easier to build a TBH than a
                            Langstroth/hoffman
                            > > hive.
                            > > > However point for point, Foundationless langs have all the
                            > > advantages of
                            > > > being foundationless and all the advantages of being
                            > > Langs....Foundationless
                            > > > is what is the important key in my opinion, if you have the
                            money
                            > > for lang
                            > > > equipment, then you should get it if you like it....You can
                            still
                            > > cut out
                            > > > your honey, you don't have to use an extractor.
                            > > >
                            > > > Scot McPherson
                            > > > McPherson Family Farms
                            > > > Davenport, IA
                            > > >
                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > From: TopHive@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TopHive@yahoogroups.com]
                            On
                            > > Behalf Of
                            > > > kmdaven
                            > > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:10 PM
                            > > > To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > Subject: [TopHive] TBH vs. Foundationless
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi,
                            > > > I am wondering if anyone can talk about what they see as the
                            > > advantages
                            > > > of a Top Bar Hive (as pictured on this homepage, with its
                            > > trapezoidal
                            > > > shape) over a foundationless Lang-style hive (as promoted by
                            > > Michael
                            > > > Bush). It seems that people promote the trapezoidal shape of the
                            > > TBh as
                            > > > a way to keep the bees from attaching to the sides. But if one
                            used
                            > > the
                            > > > frames, the bees can attach to the sides as they wish, I can
                            still
                            > > pull
                            > > > it out. The other advantage that I can see would be that
                            opening up
                            > > a
                            > > > TBH doesn't irritate the bees so much because we're not taking
                            off
                            > > > their entire roof.
                            > > >
                            > > > Other than those, is there any advantage to the shape &
                            workings of
                            > > the
                            > > > top bar hive over a foundationless box hive?
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks for your thoughts,
                            > > > Kristen
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                            > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                            > > >
                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • michael marconi
                            This trim router....can it make rabbet cuts for beehives? Is it strong enough??? Never thought a router can be so cheap, THX Mike David Croteau
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 23, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              This trim router....can it make rabbet cuts for beehives? Is it strong enough??? Never thought a router can be so cheap,

                              THX
                              Mike






                              David Croteau <davidlcroteau@...> wrote:

                              Thanks Jim, just ordered the router & BITS, $9.99 each.
                              Dave

                              -- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Jim and Recca Payne"
                              <jimandrebeccan@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > A tool you might wish to invest in if you want to do several over
                              time would
                              > be a trim router.
                              > You can get one for under $20 at Homier.com.
                              > Couple it up with a few special bits like a spiral cutting bit and
                              a chamfer
                              > bit and possibly a 45 degree angle bit and you should be able to do
                              just
                              > about anything you want. Granted this particular one is not heavy
                              commercial
                              > duty but it will get the job done for casual use.
                              >
                              > Jim Payne
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "kmdaven" <kmdaven@...>
                              > To: <TopHive@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:39 PM
                              > Subject: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless
                              >
                              >
                              > > Scot, thanks for the (fast!) input. The guy who built my Top Bar
                              > > Hives (we don't have a table saw so couldn't do those angles)
                              insists
                              > > it would be soooo much easier to build the BOXES like the
                              Langstroth
                              > > hives. But you say it's easier to build a TBH? The only negative I
                              > > see is that I'd still have to buy frames. Surely those are
                              difficult
                              > > to build from scrap.
                              > >
                              > > Kristen
                              > >
                              > > --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Scot McPherson" <scot.mcpherson@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > It is cheaper and easier to build a TBH than a
                              Langstroth/hoffman
                              > > hive.
                              > > > However point for point, Foundationless langs have all the
                              > > advantages of
                              > > > being foundationless and all the advantages of being
                              > > Langs....Foundationless
                              > > > is what is the important key in my opinion, if you have the
                              money
                              > > for lang
                              > > > equipment, then you should get it if you like it....You can
                              still
                              > > cut out
                              > > > your honey, you don't have to use an extractor.
                              > > >
                              > > > Scot McPherson
                              > > > McPherson Family Farms
                              > > > Davenport, IA
                              > > >
                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > From: TopHive@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TopHive@yahoogroups.com]
                              On
                              > > Behalf Of
                              > > > kmdaven
                              > > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:10 PM
                              > > > To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Subject: [TopHive] TBH vs. Foundationless
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi,
                              > > > I am wondering if anyone can talk about what they see as the
                              > > advantages
                              > > > of a Top Bar Hive (as pictured on this homepage, with its
                              > > trapezoidal
                              > > > shape) over a foundationless Lang-style hive (as promoted by
                              > > Michael
                              > > > Bush). It seems that people promote the trapezoidal shape of the
                              > > TBh as
                              > > > a way to keep the bees from attaching to the sides. But if one
                              used
                              > > the
                              > > > frames, the bees can attach to the sides as they wish, I can
                              still
                              > > pull
                              > > > it out. The other advantage that I can see would be that
                              opening up
                              > > a
                              > > > TBH doesn't irritate the bees so much because we're not taking
                              off
                              > > > their entire roof.
                              > > >
                              > > > Other than those, is there any advantage to the shape &
                              workings of
                              > > the
                              > > > top bar hive over a foundationless box hive?
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks for your thoughts,
                              > > > Kristen
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                              > > >
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Croteau
                              Replying to my own mwssage , the $9.99 router burned out after 5 minutes. I m 70 years old & should have learned by now that you get what you pay for. But some
                              Message 14 of 29 , Aug 15, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Replying to my own mwssage , the $9.99 router burned out after 5
                                minutes. I'm 70 years old & should have learned by now that you get
                                what you pay for. But some people just keep rpeating mistakes, over
                                and over and over .
                                Dave

                                --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "David Croteau" <davidlcroteau@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Thanks Jim, just ordered the router & BITS, $9.99 each.
                                > Dave
                                >
                                > -- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Jim and Recca Payne"
                                > <jimandrebeccan@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > A tool you might wish to invest in if you want to do several over
                                > time would
                                > > be a trim router.
                                > > You can get one for under $20 at Homier.com.
                                > > Couple it up with a few special bits like a spiral cutting bit
                                and
                                > a chamfer
                                > > bit and possibly a 45 degree angle bit and you should be able to
                                do
                                > just
                                > > about anything you want. Granted this particular one is not heavy
                                > commercial
                                > > duty but it will get the job done for casual use.
                                > >
                                > > Jim Payne
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: "kmdaven" <kmdaven@>
                                > > To: <TopHive@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:39 PM
                                > > Subject: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > Scot, thanks for the (fast!) input. The guy who built my Top Bar
                                > > > Hives (we don't have a table saw so couldn't do those angles)
                                > insists
                                > > > it would be soooo much easier to build the BOXES like the
                                > Langstroth
                                > > > hives. But you say it's easier to build a TBH? The only
                                negative I
                                > > > see is that I'd still have to buy frames. Surely those are
                                > difficult
                                > > > to build from scrap.
                                > > >
                                > > > Kristen
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Scot McPherson"
                                <scot.mcpherson@>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > It is cheaper and easier to build a TBH than a
                                > Langstroth/hoffman
                                > > > hive.
                                > > > > However point for point, Foundationless langs have all the
                                > > > advantages of
                                > > > > being foundationless and all the advantages of being
                                > > > Langs....Foundationless
                                > > > > is what is the important key in my opinion, if you have the
                                > money
                                > > > for lang
                                > > > > equipment, then you should get it if you like it....You can
                                > still
                                > > > cut out
                                > > > > your honey, you don't have to use an extractor.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Scot McPherson
                                > > > > McPherson Family Farms
                                > > > > Davenport, IA
                                > > > >
                                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > > From: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:TopHive@yahoogroups.com]
                                > On
                                > > > Behalf Of
                                > > > > kmdaven
                                > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:10 PM
                                > > > > To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > Subject: [TopHive] TBH vs. Foundationless
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hi,
                                > > > > I am wondering if anyone can talk about what they see as the
                                > > > advantages
                                > > > > of a Top Bar Hive (as pictured on this homepage, with its
                                > > > trapezoidal
                                > > > > shape) over a foundationless Lang-style hive (as promoted by
                                > > > Michael
                                > > > > Bush). It seems that people promote the trapezoidal shape of
                                the
                                > > > TBh as
                                > > > > a way to keep the bees from attaching to the sides. But if
                                one
                                > used
                                > > > the
                                > > > > frames, the bees can attach to the sides as they wish, I can
                                > still
                                > > > pull
                                > > > > it out. The other advantage that I can see would be that
                                > opening up
                                > > > a
                                > > > > TBH doesn't irritate the bees so much because we're not
                                taking
                                > off
                                > > > > their entire roof.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Other than those, is there any advantage to the shape &
                                > workings of
                                > > > the
                                > > > > top bar hive over a foundationless box hive?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thanks for your thoughts,
                                > > > > Kristen
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                                > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                                > > >
                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.