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Re: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless

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  • P.H. Rankin Hansen
    ... Your bees have regressed. Re-queen from good stock ASAP -- venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H P.H. Rankin Hansen Stjærvej 15, Storring
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
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      Carolyn Chaney skrev:
      > Good luck in your t-shirt. I started this way too, actually in a
      > long sleeved shirt of my husband. But as the hive ages, the girls
      > get more protective, and now I wear a full zip suit. I still get it
      > occasionally through several layers of cloth. My bees are
      > unexceptional, I believe.
      >
      Your bees have regressed. Re-queen from good stock ASAP

      --
      venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H

      P.H. Rankin Hansen
      Stjærvej 15, Storring
      DK-8464 Galten
      Danmark

      (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611
    • Peter
      ... might have ... Yea, I guess, or felt her before moving. I do not understand the arguments as far as shape goes. In nature there was no classical bee
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
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        > So if you had put rubber bands around your shirt sleeve cuffs you
        might have
        > prevented that one too?
        > This is getting interesting !
        > Jim Payne

        Yea, I guess, or felt her before moving.

        I do not understand the arguments as far as shape goes. In nature
        there was no 'classical' bee colony shape, when left to their own
        devices they occupy any cavity where the volume is deemed sufficient.

        In all the pictures of different cut-outs I've researched almost none
        of them have attachments other than at the top no matter what the
        cavity shape.

        My opinion is that the 'honey-comb' shape of the individual cells are
        the only constant required by the bees.

        I used the theory that as long as the length of the top bar was longer
        than the depth that they could build it out to that it is more than
        strong enough. They also seem to naturally like bee-space on the three
        sides that are not the top attachment.

        IMHO lol

        peter
      • Scot McPherson
        ... No offense, but Horse manure. People become used to the gentleness of their hives in spring (especially newly installed packages/nucs) and don t realize
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
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          >>Your bees have regressed. Re-queen from good stock ASAP

          No offense, but Horse manure. People become used to the gentleness of their
          hives in spring (especially newly installed packages/nucs) and don't realize
          that they do become more defensive as they mature. A new queen isn't going
          to fix this, it's a matter of population. Just learn to move with care, with
          purpose and not be clumsy. Yes there is such a thing as hot bees, but you'll
          know hot bees when you run into them. A hive that is booming strong, and you
          get stung a couple of times is NOT HOT.

          If you have a hot hive, LOTS of bees will chase you as you leave. A normal
          hive will follow you a few yards with a few bees. As you become more
          experienced, more confident, and smoother in your operations, even
          extra-defensive bees will calm down for you...



          Scot McPherson
          McPherson Family Farms
          Davenport, IA
        • Scot McPherson
          ... In Nature, combs are not removed from colonies for human observation. Since we need to remove the combs we need to make sure we can do this without causing
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
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            >>I do not understand the arguments as far as shape goes. In nature
            >>there was no 'classical' bee colony shape, when left to their own
            >>devices they occupy any cavity where the volume is deemed sufficient.


            In Nature, combs are not removed from colonies for human observation. Since
            we need to remove the combs we need to make sure we can do this without
            causing problems. One way is with frames like the hoffman frames used in
            Langstroth hives. The other way is to use a top bar withteh comb suspended
            from it. In nature when bees suspend comb from a branch or otherwise are
            forced to build a free hanging comb, it is built in a caternary curve. Since
            in a top bar hive we are making them do free hanging comb, we want to get as
            close to this shape as we can, but do it easily for us. A trapezoid is the
            easiest way to achieve this, and furthermore, not just any trapezoid, one to
            specific dimensions to emulate with straight lines as close to the caternary
            curve as you can. You will still get attachments, but only an inch or two on
            each side as oppsed to a whole structure of support attachments. This is
            normal when the bees are building fresh comb which is soft and weak. Once
            the wax has seasoned a little, and you remove the attachments, they usually
            don't need to re-attach them. Perhaps once or twice they might reattach is
            it is structurally necessary for thje comb to hold, but then they stop
            because it becomes no longer necessary. Then you have a free hanging comb.
            On my beewiki which is currently out of order, I am sorry, I wrote quite a
            long dissertation on why I chose the shaope of hive I did. I have summarized
            it above, but the longer explanation really points out the engineering
            principles behind it. However, a trapezoid is more structurally sound for
            free hanging comb which is what comb is in a top bar hive.

            Scot McPherson
            McPherson Family Farms
            Davenport, IA
          • P.H. Rankin Hansen
            Scot, I hate to burst your bubble, but in my experience, the size of the family has no influence on their aggressiveness. If the bees are aggressive, change
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
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              Scot, I hate to burst your bubble, but in my experience, the size of the
              family has no influence on their aggressiveness.

              If the bees are aggressive, change the queen. Period!

              In the family becomes aggressive, then the queen was not good enough. It
              usually takes a few generations of home bred queens to regress that far,
              if the starting point was good.

              I assume that we are talking about package bees. If a package turns
              aggressive within a few months, then it is most likely that the queen
              was shipped with bees that were offspring from another queen. As the
              family grows, those original bees are being replaced with fresh bees
              that are offspring of the queen, and they may not be as gentle as the
              original bees. In other words; the gentle bees are slowly being replaced
              with more aggressive bees, which can easily be misinterpreted as if the
              bees turn increasingly aggressive because the family grows.

              In other words: find another place to buy a new queen to replace the
              inferior queen shipped with the package.

              Ping.

              Scot McPherson skrev:
              >>> Your bees have regressed. Re-queen from good stock ASAP
              >>>
              >
              > No offense, but Horse manure. People become used to the gentleness of their
              > hives in spring (especially newly installed packages/nucs) and don't realize
              > that they do become more defensive as they mature. A new queen isn't going
              > to fix this, it's a matter of population. Just learn to move with care, with
              > purpose and not be clumsy. Yes there is such a thing as hot bees, but you'll
              > know hot bees when you run into them. A hive that is booming strong, and you
              > get stung a couple of times is NOT HOT.
              >
              > If you have a hot hive, LOTS of bees will chase you as you leave. A normal
              > hive will follow you a few yards with a few bees. As you become more
              > experienced, more confident, and smoother in your operations, even
              > extra-defensive bees will calm down for you...
              >
              >
              >

              --
              venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H

              P.H. Rankin Hansen
              Stjærvej 15, Storring
              DK-8464 Galten
              Danmark

              (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611
            • Scot McPherson
              I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree. You are talking aggressive bees, I am not. I am talking about normal behavior bees, and bees will always defend
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 14, 2007
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                I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

                You are talking aggressive bees, I am not. I am talking about normal
                behavior bees, and bees will always defend themselves if something makes
                them want to defend. That is what bees do.

                The behavior of the beekeeper is just as important in determining how the
                bees will behave as the source queen. Even very hot bees can be kept by a
                beekeeper who can move very smoothly.

                Size of the family also has great influence. A weak cluster is no where near
                as likely to defend as a large booming colony. This has been demonstrated
                over 100's of years of beekeeping, and is a simple matter of economics.

                Scot McPherson
                McPherson Family Farms
                Davenport, IA

                -----Original Message-----
                From: TopHive@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TopHive@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                P.H. Rankin Hansen
                Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 2:14 PM
                To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless

                Scot, I hate to burst your bubble, but in my experience, the size of the
                family has no influence on their aggressiveness.

                If the bees are aggressive, change the queen. Period!

                In the family becomes aggressive, then the queen was not good enough. It
                usually takes a few generations of home bred queens to regress that far,
                if the starting point was good.

                I assume that we are talking about package bees. If a package turns
                aggressive within a few months, then it is most likely that the queen
                was shipped with bees that were offspring from another queen. As the
                family grows, those original bees are being replaced with fresh bees
                that are offspring of the queen, and they may not be as gentle as the
                original bees. In other words; the gentle bees are slowly being replaced
                with more aggressive bees, which can easily be misinterpreted as if the
                bees turn increasingly aggressive because the family grows.

                In other words: find another place to buy a new queen to replace the
                inferior queen shipped with the package.

                Ping.

                Scot McPherson skrev:
                >>> Your bees have regressed. Re-queen from good stock ASAP
                >>>
                >
                > No offense, but Horse manure. People become used to the gentleness of
                their
                > hives in spring (especially newly installed packages/nucs) and don't
                realize
                > that they do become more defensive as they mature. A new queen isn't going
                > to fix this, it's a matter of population. Just learn to move with care,
                with
                > purpose and not be clumsy. Yes there is such a thing as hot bees, but
                you'll
                > know hot bees when you run into them. A hive that is booming strong, and
                you
                > get stung a couple of times is NOT HOT.
                >
                > If you have a hot hive, LOTS of bees will chase you as you leave. A normal
                > hive will follow you a few yards with a few bees. As you become more
                > experienced, more confident, and smoother in your operations, even
                > extra-defensive bees will calm down for you...
                >
                >
                >

                --
                venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H

                P.H. Rankin Hansen
                Stjærvej 15, Storring
                DK-8464 Galten
                Danmark

                (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611




                The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive

                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • stangardens
                colonys will will sting more when they re larger. i don t think all that catenary curve mumbo jumbo makes much differance when you re dealing with a hive up to
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 15, 2007
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                  colonys will will sting more when they're larger.
                  i don't think all that catenary curve mumbo jumbo makes much
                  differance when you're dealing with a hive up to ten inches deep.
                  yes comb starts out curved but the bees are plenty happy to keep going
                  and fill more space.
                  at this point in my career i'm interested in healthy, happy bees and
                  like the bees am getting less concerned with the shape of a box.
                  have fun!
                  stan in somerset
                • Scot McPherson
                  Fill more space yes, but then it needs to be supported. Bees build comb in walls with combs many feet in vertical length, but it is attached to the structure
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 15, 2007
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                    Fill more space yes, but then it needs to be supported. Bees build comb in
                    walls with combs many feet in vertical length, but it is attached to the
                    structure all up and down the thing, and the combs are criss crossed all
                    over the place.

                    We are talking about manageable hives with moveable combs, not a bee tree.

                    It's a matter of mechanical stresses, that's all...nothing else.



                    Scot McPherson
                    McPherson Family Farms
                    Davenport, IA

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TopHive@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TopHive@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    stangardens
                    Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:16 AM
                    To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless

                    colonys will will sting more when they're larger.
                    i don't think all that catenary curve mumbo jumbo makes much
                    differance when you're dealing with a hive up to ten inches deep.
                    yes comb starts out curved but the bees are plenty happy to keep going
                    and fill more space.
                    at this point in my career i'm interested in healthy, happy bees and
                    like the bees am getting less concerned with the shape of a box.
                    have fun!
                    stan in somerset



                    The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive

                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Carolyn Chaney
                    Thanks, Scot. I m very happy with my bees and feel sure that they are quite normal. Over the season, as they have more brood, they do become more protective,
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 15, 2007
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                      Thanks, Scot. I'm very happy with my bees and feel sure that they
                      are quite normal. Over the season, as they have more brood, they do
                      become more protective, but in my bee suit I feel quite secure and so
                      it is easy to work my hives.

                      Carolyn

                      On Jul 14, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Scot McPherson wrote:

                      > >>Your bees have regressed. Re-queen from good stock ASAP
                      >
                      > No offense, but Horse manure. People become used to the gentleness
                      > of their
                      > hives in spring (especially newly installed packages/nucs) and
                      > don't realize
                      > that they do become more defensive as they mature. A new queen
                      > isn't going
                      > to fix this, it's a matter of population. Just learn to move with
                      > care, with
                      > purpose and not be clumsy. Yes there is such a thing as hot bees,
                      > but you'll
                      > know hot bees when you run into them. A hive that is booming
                      > strong, and you
                      > get stung a couple of times is NOT HOT.
                      >
                      > If you have a hot hive, LOTS of bees will chase you as you leave. A
                      > normal
                      > hive will follow you a few yards with a few bees. As you become more
                      > experienced, more confident, and smoother in your operations, even
                      > extra-defensive bees will calm down for you...
                      >
                      > Scot McPherson
                      > McPherson Family Farms
                      > Davenport, IA
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      Carolyn Chaney
                      cchaney@...

                      > "Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious
                      > life?"
                      > --Mary Oliver
                      >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • P.H. Rankin Hansen
                      ... FYI: I have some very large hives that I usually work in a t-shirt. Having to use protective gear, other than a hat to keep them out of my hair, is not
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 16, 2007
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                        Carolyn Chaney skrev:
                        > Thanks, Scot. I'm very happy with my bees and feel sure that they
                        > are quite normal. Over the season, as they have more brood, they do
                        > become more protective, but in my bee suit I feel quite secure and so
                        > it is easy to work my hives.
                        >
                        FYI: I have some very large hives that I usually work in a t-shirt.
                        Having to use protective gear, other than a hat to keep them out of my
                        hair, is not acceptable to me. I only use a little smoke and take care
                        not to move abruptly. I usually get stung only when I screw up and mash
                        a bee - two-three times during a season.

                        The only time I have to wear protective gear, is when the hives have
                        been robbed, or when I harvest the honey - which pretty much amounts to
                        the robbery ;o).

                        But then again, I use bees that are gentle and I replace queens that
                        breed aggressive bees with queens from well reputed queen breeders. Bees
                        that behave as you and Scot have described, are generally not accepted
                        by experienced beekeepers here in Denmark, and I would have been given a
                        refund (and a new queen) from my preferred queen breeder.

                        Ping.

                        --
                        venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H

                        P.H. Rankin Hansen
                        Stjærvej 15, Storring
                        DK-8464 Galten
                        Danmark

                        (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611
                      • Scot Mc Pherson
                        Interesting. I also only work in a tshirt. I have been stung 2 times this entire year and I currently have 275 strong active colonies. I still stick to what I
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 16, 2007
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                          Interesting. I also only work in a tshirt. I have been stung 2 times
                          this entire year and I currently have 275 strong active colonies. I
                          still stick to what I said, and I think you are misunderstanding this
                          conversation. I am not advocating HOT bees.


                          Scot

                          On 7/16/07, P.H. Rankin Hansen <ping@...> wrote:
                          > Carolyn Chaney skrev:
                          > > Thanks, Scot. I'm very happy with my bees and feel sure that they
                          > > are quite normal. Over the season, as they have more brood, they do
                          > > become more protective, but in my bee suit I feel quite secure and so
                          > > it is easy to work my hives.
                          > >
                          > FYI: I have some very large hives that I usually work in a t-shirt.
                          > Having to use protective gear, other than a hat to keep them out of my
                          > hair, is not acceptable to me. I only use a little smoke and take care
                          > not to move abruptly. I usually get stung only when I screw up and mash
                          > a bee - two-three times during a season.
                          >
                          > The only time I have to wear protective gear, is when the hives have
                          > been robbed, or when I harvest the honey - which pretty much amounts to
                          > the robbery ;o).
                          >
                          > But then again, I use bees that are gentle and I replace queens that
                          > breed aggressive bees with queens from well reputed queen breeders. Bees
                          > that behave as you and Scot have described, are generally not accepted
                          > by experienced beekeepers here in Denmark, and I would have been given a
                          > refund (and a new queen) from my preferred queen breeder.
                          >
                          > Ping.
                          >
                          > --
                          > venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H
                          >
                          > P.H. Rankin Hansen
                          > Stjærvej 15, Storring
                          > DK-8464 Galten
                          > Danmark
                          >
                          > (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          Scot McPherson
                          McPherson Family Farms
                        • P.H. Rankin Hansen
                          ... As I said - when I screw up. Says more about me than about my bees ;o) 275 colonies is a lot more than I d ever want to have. I think my personal limit
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 16, 2007
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                            Scot Mc Pherson wrote:
                            > Interesting. I also only work in a tshirt. I have been stung 2 times
                            > this entire year and I currently have 275 strong active colonies. I
                            > still stick to what I said, and I think you are misunderstanding this
                            > conversation. I am not advocating HOT bees.
                            >
                            As I said - when I screw up. Says more about me than about my bees ;o)

                            275 colonies is a lot more than I'd ever want to have. I think my
                            personal limit would be about 50. If I had more hives than that, I think
                            I'd loose most of the enjoyment that I get from messing with my bees.
                            The important part, for me, is the relaxation. Not that I haven't
                            considered going commercial, but I don't think that is the right choice
                            for me. Sure, I'd like to be able to handle more pollinating, but ...

                            When I work my bees, I relax totally - sort of like meditation. Empty my
                            mind, control my movements, my breath. Very zen-like ;o) Which is why I
                            don't accept feisty bees.

                            Enjoy your bees - I certainly enjoy mine

                            Ping.

                            --
                            venlig hilsen / best regards / vy 73 de OZ4PH & 5P1H

                            P.H. Rankin Hansen
                            Stjærvej 15, Storring
                            DK-8464 Galten
                            Danmark

                            (+45) 7586 1688 / (+45) 2211 9611
                          • David Croteau
                            Thanks Jim, just ordered the router & BITS, $9.99 each. Dave -- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, Jim and Recca Payne ... time would ... a chamfer ... just ...
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 23, 2007
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                              Thanks Jim, just ordered the router & BITS, $9.99 each.
                              Dave

                              -- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Jim and Recca Payne"
                              <jimandrebeccan@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > A tool you might wish to invest in if you want to do several over
                              time would
                              > be a trim router.
                              > You can get one for under $20 at Homier.com.
                              > Couple it up with a few special bits like a spiral cutting bit and
                              a chamfer
                              > bit and possibly a 45 degree angle bit and you should be able to do
                              just
                              > about anything you want. Granted this particular one is not heavy
                              commercial
                              > duty but it will get the job done for casual use.
                              >
                              > Jim Payne
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "kmdaven" <kmdaven@...>
                              > To: <TopHive@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:39 PM
                              > Subject: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless
                              >
                              >
                              > > Scot, thanks for the (fast!) input. The guy who built my Top Bar
                              > > Hives (we don't have a table saw so couldn't do those angles)
                              insists
                              > > it would be soooo much easier to build the BOXES like the
                              Langstroth
                              > > hives. But you say it's easier to build a TBH? The only negative I
                              > > see is that I'd still have to buy frames. Surely those are
                              difficult
                              > > to build from scrap.
                              > >
                              > > Kristen
                              > >
                              > > --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Scot McPherson" <scot.mcpherson@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > It is cheaper and easier to build a TBH than a
                              Langstroth/hoffman
                              > > hive.
                              > > > However point for point, Foundationless langs have all the
                              > > advantages of
                              > > > being foundationless and all the advantages of being
                              > > Langs....Foundationless
                              > > > is what is the important key in my opinion, if you have the
                              money
                              > > for lang
                              > > > equipment, then you should get it if you like it....You can
                              still
                              > > cut out
                              > > > your honey, you don't have to use an extractor.
                              > > >
                              > > > Scot McPherson
                              > > > McPherson Family Farms
                              > > > Davenport, IA
                              > > >
                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > From: TopHive@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TopHive@yahoogroups.com]
                              On
                              > > Behalf Of
                              > > > kmdaven
                              > > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:10 PM
                              > > > To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Subject: [TopHive] TBH vs. Foundationless
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi,
                              > > > I am wondering if anyone can talk about what they see as the
                              > > advantages
                              > > > of a Top Bar Hive (as pictured on this homepage, with its
                              > > trapezoidal
                              > > > shape) over a foundationless Lang-style hive (as promoted by
                              > > Michael
                              > > > Bush). It seems that people promote the trapezoidal shape of the
                              > > TBh as
                              > > > a way to keep the bees from attaching to the sides. But if one
                              used
                              > > the
                              > > > frames, the bees can attach to the sides as they wish, I can
                              still
                              > > pull
                              > > > it out. The other advantage that I can see would be that
                              opening up
                              > > a
                              > > > TBH doesn't irritate the bees so much because we're not taking
                              off
                              > > > their entire roof.
                              > > >
                              > > > Other than those, is there any advantage to the shape &
                              workings of
                              > > the
                              > > > top bar hive over a foundationless box hive?
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks for your thoughts,
                              > > > Kristen
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                              > > >
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • michael marconi
                              This trim router....can it make rabbet cuts for beehives? Is it strong enough??? Never thought a router can be so cheap, THX Mike David Croteau
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 23, 2007
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                                This trim router....can it make rabbet cuts for beehives? Is it strong enough??? Never thought a router can be so cheap,

                                THX
                                Mike






                                David Croteau <davidlcroteau@...> wrote:

                                Thanks Jim, just ordered the router & BITS, $9.99 each.
                                Dave

                                -- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Jim and Recca Payne"
                                <jimandrebeccan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > A tool you might wish to invest in if you want to do several over
                                time would
                                > be a trim router.
                                > You can get one for under $20 at Homier.com.
                                > Couple it up with a few special bits like a spiral cutting bit and
                                a chamfer
                                > bit and possibly a 45 degree angle bit and you should be able to do
                                just
                                > about anything you want. Granted this particular one is not heavy
                                commercial
                                > duty but it will get the job done for casual use.
                                >
                                > Jim Payne
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "kmdaven" <kmdaven@...>
                                > To: <TopHive@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:39 PM
                                > Subject: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless
                                >
                                >
                                > > Scot, thanks for the (fast!) input. The guy who built my Top Bar
                                > > Hives (we don't have a table saw so couldn't do those angles)
                                insists
                                > > it would be soooo much easier to build the BOXES like the
                                Langstroth
                                > > hives. But you say it's easier to build a TBH? The only negative I
                                > > see is that I'd still have to buy frames. Surely those are
                                difficult
                                > > to build from scrap.
                                > >
                                > > Kristen
                                > >
                                > > --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Scot McPherson" <scot.mcpherson@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > It is cheaper and easier to build a TBH than a
                                Langstroth/hoffman
                                > > hive.
                                > > > However point for point, Foundationless langs have all the
                                > > advantages of
                                > > > being foundationless and all the advantages of being
                                > > Langs....Foundationless
                                > > > is what is the important key in my opinion, if you have the
                                money
                                > > for lang
                                > > > equipment, then you should get it if you like it....You can
                                still
                                > > cut out
                                > > > your honey, you don't have to use an extractor.
                                > > >
                                > > > Scot McPherson
                                > > > McPherson Family Farms
                                > > > Davenport, IA
                                > > >
                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > From: TopHive@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TopHive@yahoogroups.com]
                                On
                                > > Behalf Of
                                > > > kmdaven
                                > > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:10 PM
                                > > > To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Subject: [TopHive] TBH vs. Foundationless
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi,
                                > > > I am wondering if anyone can talk about what they see as the
                                > > advantages
                                > > > of a Top Bar Hive (as pictured on this homepage, with its
                                > > trapezoidal
                                > > > shape) over a foundationless Lang-style hive (as promoted by
                                > > Michael
                                > > > Bush). It seems that people promote the trapezoidal shape of the
                                > > TBh as
                                > > > a way to keep the bees from attaching to the sides. But if one
                                used
                                > > the
                                > > > frames, the bees can attach to the sides as they wish, I can
                                still
                                > > pull
                                > > > it out. The other advantage that I can see would be that
                                opening up
                                > > a
                                > > > TBH doesn't irritate the bees so much because we're not taking
                                off
                                > > > their entire roof.
                                > > >
                                > > > Other than those, is there any advantage to the shape &
                                workings of
                                > > the
                                > > > top bar hive over a foundationless box hive?
                                > > >
                                > > > Thanks for your thoughts,
                                > > > Kristen
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                                > > >
                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • David Croteau
                                Replying to my own mwssage , the $9.99 router burned out after 5 minutes. I m 70 years old & should have learned by now that you get what you pay for. But some
                                Message 15 of 29 , Aug 15, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Replying to my own mwssage , the $9.99 router burned out after 5
                                  minutes. I'm 70 years old & should have learned by now that you get
                                  what you pay for. But some people just keep rpeating mistakes, over
                                  and over and over .
                                  Dave

                                  --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "David Croteau" <davidlcroteau@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thanks Jim, just ordered the router & BITS, $9.99 each.
                                  > Dave
                                  >
                                  > -- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Jim and Recca Payne"
                                  > <jimandrebeccan@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > A tool you might wish to invest in if you want to do several over
                                  > time would
                                  > > be a trim router.
                                  > > You can get one for under $20 at Homier.com.
                                  > > Couple it up with a few special bits like a spiral cutting bit
                                  and
                                  > a chamfer
                                  > > bit and possibly a 45 degree angle bit and you should be able to
                                  do
                                  > just
                                  > > about anything you want. Granted this particular one is not heavy
                                  > commercial
                                  > > duty but it will get the job done for casual use.
                                  > >
                                  > > Jim Payne
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: "kmdaven" <kmdaven@>
                                  > > To: <TopHive@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:39 PM
                                  > > Subject: [TopHive] Re: TBH vs. Foundationless
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > Scot, thanks for the (fast!) input. The guy who built my Top Bar
                                  > > > Hives (we don't have a table saw so couldn't do those angles)
                                  > insists
                                  > > > it would be soooo much easier to build the BOXES like the
                                  > Langstroth
                                  > > > hives. But you say it's easier to build a TBH? The only
                                  negative I
                                  > > > see is that I'd still have to buy frames. Surely those are
                                  > difficult
                                  > > > to build from scrap.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Kristen
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, "Scot McPherson"
                                  <scot.mcpherson@>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > It is cheaper and easier to build a TBH than a
                                  > Langstroth/hoffman
                                  > > > hive.
                                  > > > > However point for point, Foundationless langs have all the
                                  > > > advantages of
                                  > > > > being foundationless and all the advantages of being
                                  > > > Langs....Foundationless
                                  > > > > is what is the important key in my opinion, if you have the
                                  > money
                                  > > > for lang
                                  > > > > equipment, then you should get it if you like it....You can
                                  > still
                                  > > > cut out
                                  > > > > your honey, you don't have to use an extractor.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Scot McPherson
                                  > > > > McPherson Family Farms
                                  > > > > Davenport, IA
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > From: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:TopHive@yahoogroups.com]
                                  > On
                                  > > > Behalf Of
                                  > > > > kmdaven
                                  > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 10:10 PM
                                  > > > > To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > Subject: [TopHive] TBH vs. Foundationless
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Hi,
                                  > > > > I am wondering if anyone can talk about what they see as the
                                  > > > advantages
                                  > > > > of a Top Bar Hive (as pictured on this homepage, with its
                                  > > > trapezoidal
                                  > > > > shape) over a foundationless Lang-style hive (as promoted by
                                  > > > Michael
                                  > > > > Bush). It seems that people promote the trapezoidal shape of
                                  the
                                  > > > TBh as
                                  > > > > a way to keep the bees from attaching to the sides. But if
                                  one
                                  > used
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > frames, the bees can attach to the sides as they wish, I can
                                  > still
                                  > > > pull
                                  > > > > it out. The other advantage that I can see would be that
                                  > opening up
                                  > > > a
                                  > > > > TBH doesn't irritate the bees so much because we're not
                                  taking
                                  > off
                                  > > > > their entire roof.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Other than those, is there any advantage to the shape &
                                  > workings of
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > top bar hive over a foundationless box hive?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Thanks for your thoughts,
                                  > > > > Kristen
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                                  > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
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