Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives

Expand Messages
  • Ben P
    Vicky, It s a separate list-- . The list is very friendly, and open to questions from all experience levels.
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 29, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Vicky,
      It's a separate list--<http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/warrebeekeeping/>.
      The list is very friendly, and open to questions from all experience levels.
      Don't let it intimidate you, I managed to build one in a few hours while
      visiting my Mom (who has a table saw, bless her). And I still have all of
      my fingers, to boot. The roof was the tricky part, mostly because I was
      working with US-dimension rough cut lumber, instead of matching the
      dimensions given by the Abbe.

      Ben

      On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@...>wrote:

      > Ben,
      >
      > Sorry, just been trying to access this list: is it within the TopHive group
      > or within a Warre Beekeeping group on yahoo?
      >
      > Thank you
      >
      > Vicky
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Victoria Hobbs
      Ben,   I am more than a little confused! I have looked at all the variants on the Warre hive but as far as I can see the only one with detailed
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 29, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Ben,
         
        I am more than a little confused! I have looked at all the variants on the Warre hive but as far as I can see the only one with detailed measurements are the technical instructions given for the original Warre hive. Given this, perhaps I should start with the original version!
         
        3 Questions...which will probably make you laugh as they demonstrate my uncertainty as soon as I enter the field of wood in tandem with my inexperience of beekeeping:
         
        a)  I cannot work out what the last section of the specifications is there for - the feeder box - as I thought the Warre system did not believe in feeding sugar? (Also, I find this section virtually impossible to understand, whereas the others are at least somewhere near my comprehension level!) Do I need to struggle with this - or can it wait to a later stage if required?
         
        b) Albeit that i have limited funds, I do have some really nice bits of Merbau wood, which is probably rather deluxe for this purpose, but I imagine it should work well in principal (presume untreated as used for indoor shelving some 25 years ago, albeit that until 10 years ago it may occasionally have been polished with Briwax...not sure if this could now be a problem but that was many years ago! The wood is nice and thick (probably around the 2 cm spec) - width varies - about 9" and 12", more of the latter. The question is, would it be OK to adapt the depth of the boxes to suit available wood, or do I have to get good enough with a jigsaw and planer to reduce the width to the specified depth? It seems a shame not to use this, as it has no other purpose - I have hung onto it simply because the wood itself is so lovely!
         
        c) If b) deals with the sides of the boxes, the bases seem to be of one piece of wood without any joins - which presumably means they are plywood? If I only have to buy enough ply for the bases the cost should shoot right down...!

        Vicky
        --- On Tue, 29/9/09, Ben P <benjamin.primrose@...> wrote:


        From: Ben P <benjamin.primrose@...>
        Subject: Re: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives
        To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 2:26 PM


        Vicky,
            It's a separate list--<http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/warrebeekeeping/>.
        The list is very friendly, and open to questions from all experience levels.
            Don't let it intimidate you, I managed to build one in a few hours while
        visiting my Mom (who has a table saw, bless her).  And I still have all of
        my fingers, to boot.  The roof was the tricky part, mostly because I was
        working with US-dimension rough cut lumber, instead of matching the
        dimensions given by the Abbe.

        Ben

        On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@...>wrote:

        > Ben,
        >
        > Sorry, just been trying to access this list: is it within the TopHive group
        > or within a Warre Beekeeping group on yahoo?
        >
        > Thank you
        >
        > Vicky
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        The group archive and other pages can be accessed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
        Yahoo! Groups Links








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • S.L.
        The Warre hives look great; I d love to build one myself. If for some reason you decide to build a top-bar hive (non-warre style), here s a fairly simple plan
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 29, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          The Warre hives look great; I'd love to build one myself. If for some reason you decide to build a top-bar hive (non-warre style), here's a fairly simple plan from Les Crowder:

          http://www.permaculture.org/nm/images/uploads/hive_making_plan.pdf

          I've built this one, and I'm not particularly skilled. It could be made even simpler, I'm sure.

          --- On Tue, 9/29/09, Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@...> wrote:

          From: Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@...>
          Subject: Re: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives
          To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 4:44 PM






           





          Ben,

           

          I am more than a little confused! I have looked at all the variants on the Warre hive but as far as I can see the only one with detailed measurements  are the technical instructions given for the original Warre hive. Given this, perhaps I should start with the original version!

           

          3 Questions.. .which will probably make you laugh as they demonstrate my uncertainty as soon as I enter the field of wood in tandem with my inexperience of beekeeping:

           

          a)  I cannot work out what the last section of the specifications is there for - the feeder box - as I thought the Warre system did not believe in feeding sugar? (Also, I find this section virtually impossible to understand, whereas the others are at least somewhere near my comprehension level!) Do I need to struggle with this - or can it wait to a later stage if required?

           

          b) Albeit that i have limited funds, I do have some really nice bits of Merbau wood, which is probably rather deluxe for this purpose, but I imagine it should work well in principal (presume untreated as used for indoor shelving some 25 years ago, albeit that until 10 years ago it may occasionally have been polished with Briwax...not sure if this could now be a problem but that was many years ago! The wood is nice and thick (probably around the 2 cm spec) - width varies - about 9" and 12", more of the latter. The question is, would it be OK to adapt the depth of the boxes to suit available wood, or do I have to get good enough with a jigsaw and planer to reduce the width to the specified depth? It seems a shame not to use this, as it has no other purpose - I have hung onto it simply because the wood itself is so lovely!

           

          c) If b) deals with the sides of the boxes, the bases seem to be of one piece of wood without any joins - which presumably means they are plywood? If I only have to buy enough ply for the bases the cost should shoot right down...!



          Vicky

          --- On Tue, 29/9/09, Ben P <benjamin.primrose@ gmail.com> wrote:



          From: Ben P <benjamin.primrose@ gmail.com>

          Subject: Re: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives

          To: TopHive@yahoogroups .com

          Date: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 2:26 PM



          Vicky,

              It's a separate list--<http://uk.groups. yahoo.com/ group/warrebeeke eping/>.

          The list is very friendly, and open to questions from all experience levels.

              Don't let it intimidate you, I managed to build one in a few hours while

          visiting my Mom (who has a table saw, bless her).  And I still have all of

          my fingers, to boot.  The roof was the tricky part, mostly because I was

          working with US-dimension rough cut lumber, instead of matching the

          dimensions given by the Abbe.



          Ben



          On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@yahoo. co.uk>wrote:



          > Ben,

          >

          > Sorry, just been trying to access this list: is it within the TopHive group

          > or within a Warre Beekeeping group on yahoo?

          >

          > Thank you

          >

          > Vicky

          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------ --------- --------- ------



          The group archive and other pages can be accessed at http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/TopHive

          Yahoo! Groups Links



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • tomzboxathotmaildotcom
          ... Victoria, Instead of that original Warre plan, here are two better detailed construction guides, both by Nick Hampshire: This is his free original
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 29, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ben,
            >  
            > I am more than a little confused! I have looked at all the variants on the Warre hive but as far as I can see the only one with detailed measurements are the technical instructions given for the original Warre hive. Given this, perhaps I should start with the original version!


            Victoria,

            Instead of that original Warre plan, here are two better detailed construction guides, both by Nick Hampshire:

            This is his free original construction plan, which has detailed dimensions, pictures, tool lists and everything:
            <http://thebeespace.net/2008/07/30/introduction-warre-beehive-construction-guide/>

            This is his new improved guide with lots of extras and video access and stuff, but it'll cost you a whopping $17. (the guy has to defray his expenses somehow <g>):

            <http://diybeehive.com/>

            Below, I've also included his Warre measurements (in metrics, followed by a conversion to understandable real english/american inches and fractions in parentheses)

            best,
            Tom Warren
            Pleasant Hill, OR


            *********************************************
            To build a Warre hive roof we will need to cut the following wood pieces:

            * 2 end gables measuring 39cm long by 21cm wide (15 3/8″ long by 8 1/4″ wide)
            * 2 sides measuring 35cm long by 12m wide (13 3/4″ long by 4 3/4″ wide)
            * 2 roof panels measuring 50cm long by 21cm wide (19 11/16″ long by 8 1/4″ wide)
            * 1 ridge panel measuring 50cm long by 6cm wide (19 11/16″ long by 2 3/8″ wide)
            * 1 coverboard measuring 39cm long by 35cm wide by 1cm thick (15 3/8″ long by 13 3/4″ wide by 3/8″ thick) This cover board can be made from 3/8″ or 1/2″ thick outdoor grade plywood.

            You will also need:

            * Nails or screws
            * Smaller nails or screws to fasten the coverboard

            Take one of the end gables measuring 39cm long by 21cm wide (15 3/8″ long by 8 1/4″ wide) and lay it on your work surface. Decide which long side of the board you want to be the top. Now place a mark on each side of the board 16cm (6 5/16″) up from the bottom. If you have a combination square or speed square, set it for 72 degrees. Place the square at the mark and draw a line towards the top of the board.

            To build a Warre hive box we will need to cut the following wood pieces:

            * 2 long sides measuring 34cm long by 21cm wide (13 3/8″ long by 8 1/4″ wide)
            * 2 short sides measuring 30cm long by 21cm wide (11 13/16″ long by 8 1/4″ wide)
            * 8 topbars measuring 32cm long by 2.4cm wide by 1cm thick (12 5/8″ long by 15/16″ wide by 3/8″ thick)
            Set the blade to a depth of 1cm. Take one of the short sides measuring 30cm long by 21cm wide (11 13/16″ long by 8 1/4″ wide) and run it through the saw lengthwise.

            To build the Warre Hive Floor, we will need to cut the following wood pieces:

            * 2 floor halves measuring 33.5cm long by 16.75cm wide (13 3/16″ long by 6 5/8″ wide)
            * 2 short pieces of wood measuring 21cm long by 3cm wide (8 1/4″ long by 1 3/16″ wide)
            * 1 landing board measuring 41cm long by 16cm wide (16 1/8″ long by 6 5/16″ wide)
            Measuring from one edge of the board, mark the following points on the long side of the board:

            * 10.75cm (4 1/4″)
             22.75cm (8 15/16″)

            To build the Warre Hive Quilt, you will need to cut the following wood pieces:

            * 2 short sides measuring 30cm long by 10cm wide (11 13/16″ long by 3 15/16″ wide). The edge width of the board is up to you. A good size is anywhere between 20mm to 25mm (3/4″ to 1″) wide.
            * 2 long quilt sides measuring 34cm long by 10cm wide (13 3/8″ long by 3 15/16″ wide).
            * 1 piece of cloth measuring about 40cm by 40cm (15 3/4″ by 15 3/4″)
          • Ben P
            Victoria, I m not laughing:) Nick Hampshire s (thebeespace.net) site is very good, and he s a regular on the Warre list. The metric to US measurements
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 30, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Victoria,
              I'm not laughing:) Nick Hampshire's (thebeespace.net) site is very good,
              and he's a regular on the Warre list. The metric to US measurements
              conversion was the hardest part. I took the original version, and did a
              rough conversion. My wood was 1 by 12 (those are actual measurements, not
              HW store-ese). My hive bodies are 14x14 exterior dimensions, and 12x12
              interior dimensions. It's not exactly the 300mm Warre specified, but easier
              to work with than converting mm to cm to inches ( (mm/100) * 2.54 = inches),
              then trying to convert the decimal portion to sixteenths. So the long
              boards in my hive bodies are 14 inches long. That's 12 inches interior + 2
              times the width of my wood (to overlap the short sides, which are just 12
              inches long). My top-bars are an inch wide, eight to a box. To answer
              your questions:

              On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@...>wrote:

              > Ben,
              > <snip>
              > a) I cannot work out what the last section of the specifications is there
              > for - the feeder box - as I thought the Warre system did not believe in
              > feeding sugar? (Also, I find this section virtually impossible to
              > understand, whereas the others are at least somewhere near my comprehension
              > level!) Do I need to struggle with this - or can it wait to a later stage if
              > required?
              >

              Warre frowned on feeding sugar, it's not bees natural food, and used his
              feeder to feed back honey when needed, or let the bees clean up comb without
              having it in the apiary (where it could trigger robbing). Contrary to
              popular belief, you can extract TB comb, Warre did by building wire cages to
              put the comb in while it was in the extractor.

              Most folks are understanding that someone with only a hive or two may not be
              able afford to replace them. It's also commonly accepted to feed package
              bees, since a 3lb package is less than the 2kg (4.4lbs) Warre suggested
              starting with, and is not as well-fed as a natural swarm, which will have
              gorged itself on honey before leaving the parent colony. Short answer is,
              it's up to you.

              As for the feeder specs, I'd have to re-read the book to tell you. It's a
              hive body with four extra boards to create a ramp down into a reservoir.
              Another option is to put an empty hive body on the bottom, and feed in a
              bowl (put something buoyant in so the girls don't fall in and drown).


              >
              > b) Albeit that i have limited funds, I do have some really nice bits of
              > Merbau wood, which is probably rather deluxe for this purpose, but I imagine
              > it should work well in principal (presume untreated as used for indoor
              > shelving some 25 years ago, albeit that until 10 years ago it may
              > occasionally have been polished with Briwax...not sure if this could now be
              > a problem but that was many years ago! The wood is nice and thick (probably
              > around the 2 cm spec) - width varies - about 9" and 12", more of the latter.
              > The question is, would it be OK to adapt the depth of the boxes to suit
              > available wood, or do I have to get good enough with a jigsaw and planer to
              > reduce the width to the specified depth? It seems a shame not to use this,
              > as it has no other purpose - I have hung onto it simply because the wood
              > itself is so lovely!
              >
              >

              You've got me, I'll have to Google Merbau later to find out what it is:)
              Again, it's up to you. Warre hives aren't widespread enough that perfect
              changeability of equipment is an issue. My hive bodies are 9 inches tall--I
              cut the extra 3 inches off my lumber and further cut the 1x3 offcuts into
              top bars.


              > c) If b) deals with the sides of the boxes, the bases seem to be of one
              > piece of wood without any joins - which presumably means they are plywood?
              > If I only have to buy enough ply for the bases the cost should shoot right
              > down...!
              >
              >
              Nick H's site shows making the base very nicely. Some folks are
              experimenting with a "sump" base, which is really just an empty hive body
              with an entrance cut out at the top. The theory is that tree cavities don't
              all have an entrance right at the bottom, and it makes for a longer climb if
              mites fall down in it. Some would berate you for plywood because of its
              glues and off-gassing, but you can make your own decision. I'd let it sit
              for a while before I used it on a hive.

              Vicky
              >


              Ben


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • tomzboxathotmaildotcom
              ... I built my first Warre out of plywood, and here s a pic of a very nice plywood Warre: The
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 30, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, Ben P <benjamin.primrose@...> wrote:
                >[Snip]...
                > Some would berate you for plywood because of its
                > glues and off-gassing, but you can make your own decision. I'd let it sit
                > for a while before I used it on a hive.

                I built my first Warre out of plywood, and here's a pic of a very nice plywood Warre: <http://thebeespace.net/2008/08/26/brendens-warre-hive/>

                The glue/outgassing 'problem' is actually wayyyy overblown. The glues are stable, inert and will not transfer toxins. (Plus you can buy toxic-free plywood at most lumber yards.) The total amount of toxins in the gas released by plywood is actually far less than the amounts of other toxins your bees will bring into the hive from their normal foraging ... and that's not very much at all.

                I decided not to build any more plywood Warres for another reason: The stuff has a tendency to split and give you ragged edges unless you behave like a master cabinet-maker when building them. Far easier to work with dimensional lumber. However plywood is a great choice for kTBHs.

                just my $0.02, YMMV.

                best,
                Tom Warren
                Pleasant Hill, OR
              • Ben P
                And a fine $.02 it is:) Nice pic. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:15 PM, tomzboxathotmaildotcom
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 30, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  And a fine $.02 it is:) Nice pic.

                  On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:15 PM, tomzboxathotmaildotcom <tomzbox@...
                  > wrote:

                  > --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, Ben P <benjamin.primrose@...> wrote:
                  > >[Snip]...
                  > > Some would berate you for plywood because of its
                  > > glues and off-gassing, but you can make your own decision. I'd let it
                  > sit
                  > > for a while before I used it on a hive.
                  >
                  > I built my first Warre out of plywood, and here's a pic of a very nice
                  > plywood Warre: <http://thebeespace.net/2008/08/26/brendens-warre-hive/>
                  >
                  > The glue/outgassing 'problem' is actually wayyyy overblown. The glues are
                  > stable, inert and will not transfer toxins. (Plus you can buy toxic-free
                  > plywood at most lumber yards.) The total amount of toxins in the gas
                  > released by plywood is actually far less than the amounts of other toxins
                  > your bees will bring into the hive from their normal foraging ... and that's
                  > not very much at all.
                  >
                  > I decided not to build any more plywood Warres for another reason: The
                  > stuff has a tendency to split and give you ragged edges unless you behave
                  > like a master cabinet-maker when building them. Far easier to work with
                  > dimensional lumber. However plywood is a great choice for kTBHs.
                  >
                  > just my $0.02, YMMV.
                  >
                  > best,
                  > Tom Warren
                  > Pleasant Hill, OR
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Victoria Hobbs
                  Thank you Ben (not only for not laughing!) :)   With all the input from people some pennies are beginning to drop! In fact, it looks to me as though one of
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 30, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thank you Ben (not only for not laughing!) :)
                     
                    With all the input from people some pennies are beginning to drop! In fact, it looks to me as though one of the main benefits of the Warre is that it is actually relatively adaptable! It looks to me as though the depth of the boxes is not really that significant so long as the internal dimensions remain constant so boxes rest on each other comfortably.
                     
                    I was thinking of ply for the base of the boxes rather than for the base of the hive itself - just because the pictures looked that way... and I wasnt sure if there were good reasons either in terms of end weight or hygeine within the hive....but i gather it is OK to piece together widths of wood for the base and from your later discussions with Tom that the use of ply is contentious(!) ...
                     
                    I am planning on getting a swarm (have a friend 40 miles away who regularly collects swarms and is happy to let me have one if I can get hives ready to receive them (presumably by next spring!) Hopefully the bees will be well fed - albeit that they may be unpredictable in their temperament by then! I will cross the feeder hurdle a bit further downline and deal with the main bits of the hive first! The bowl sounds appealingly simple for now: if I get to grips with the basics maybe I will explore the niceties later on!
                     
                    Thanks again,
                     
                    Vicky
                     


                    --- On Wed, 30/9/09, Ben P <benjamin.primrose@...> wrote:


                    From: Ben P <benjamin.primrose@...>
                    Subject: Re: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives
                    To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, 30 September, 2009, 1:05 PM


                    Victoria,
                       I'm not laughing:)  Nick Hampshire's (thebeespace.net) site is very good,
                    and he's a regular on the Warre list.  The metric to US measurements
                    conversion was the hardest part.  I took the original version, and did a
                    rough conversion.  My wood was 1 by 12 (those are actual measurements, not
                    HW store-ese).  My hive bodies are 14x14 exterior dimensions, and 12x12
                    interior dimensions.  It's not exactly the 300mm Warre specified, but easier
                    to work with than converting mm to cm to inches ( (mm/100) * 2.54 = inches),
                    then trying to convert the decimal portion to sixteenths.  So the long
                    boards in my hive bodies are 14 inches long.  That's 12 inches interior + 2
                    times the width of my wood (to overlap the short sides, which are just 12
                    inches long).   My top-bars are an inch wide, eight to a box.  To answer
                    your questions:

                    On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@...>wrote:

                    > Ben,
                    > <snip>
                    > a)  I cannot work out what the last section of the specifications is there
                    > for - the feeder box - as I thought the Warre system did not believe in
                    > feeding sugar? (Also, I find this section virtually impossible to
                    > understand, whereas the others are at least somewhere near my comprehension
                    > level!) Do I need to struggle with this - or can it wait to a later stage if
                    > required?
                    >

                    Warre frowned on feeding sugar, it's not bees natural food, and used his
                    feeder to feed back honey when needed, or let the bees clean up comb without
                    having it in the apiary (where it could trigger robbing).  Contrary to
                    popular belief, you can extract TB comb, Warre did by building wire cages to
                    put the comb in while it was in the extractor.

                    Most folks are understanding that someone with only a hive or two may not be
                    able afford to replace them.  It's also commonly accepted to feed package
                    bees, since a 3lb package is less than the 2kg (4.4lbs) Warre suggested
                    starting with, and is not as well-fed as a natural swarm, which will have
                    gorged itself on honey before leaving the parent colony.  Short answer is,
                    it's up to you.

                    As for the feeder specs, I'd have to re-read the book to tell you.  It's a
                    hive body with four extra boards to create a ramp down into a reservoir.
                    Another option is to put an empty hive body on the bottom, and feed in a
                    bowl (put something buoyant in so the girls don't fall in and drown).


                    >
                    > b) Albeit that i have limited funds, I do have some really nice bits of
                    > Merbau wood, which is probably rather deluxe for this purpose, but I imagine
                    > it should work well in principal (presume untreated as used for indoor
                    > shelving some 25 years ago, albeit that until 10 years ago it may
                    > occasionally have been polished with Briwax...not sure if this could now be
                    > a problem but that was many years ago! The wood is nice and thick (probably
                    > around the 2 cm spec) - width varies - about 9" and 12", more of the latter.
                    > The question is, would it be OK to adapt the depth of the boxes to suit
                    > available wood, or do I have to get good enough with a jigsaw and planer to
                    > reduce the width to the specified depth? It seems a shame not to use this,
                    > as it has no other purpose - I have hung onto it simply because the wood
                    > itself is so lovely!
                    >
                    >

                    You've got me, I'll have to Google Merbau later to find out what it is:)
                    Again, it's up to you.  Warre hives aren't widespread enough that perfect
                    changeability of equipment is an issue.  My hive bodies are 9 inches tall--I
                    cut the extra 3 inches off my lumber and further cut the 1x3 offcuts into
                    top bars.


                    > c) If b) deals with the sides of the boxes, the bases seem to be of one
                    > piece of wood without any joins - which presumably means they are plywood?
                    > If I only have to buy enough ply for the bases the cost should shoot right
                    > down...!
                    >
                    >
                    Nick H's site shows making the base very nicely.  Some folks are
                    experimenting with a "sump" base, which is really just an empty hive body
                    with an entrance cut out at the top.  The theory is that tree cavities don't
                    all have an entrance right at the bottom, and it makes for a longer climb if
                    mites fall down in it.  Some would berate you for plywood because of its
                    glues and off-gassing, but you can make your own decision.   I'd let it sit
                    for a while before I used it on a hive.

                    Vicky
                    >


                    Ben


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

                    The group archive and other pages can be accessed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                    Yahoo! Groups Links








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Victoria Hobbs
                    Tom,   Those plywood hives look very professional and the bees obviously do not object!   I get the message about plywood - was only thinking of using it for
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 30, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Tom,
                       
                      Those plywood hives look very professional and the bees obviously do not object!
                       
                      I get the message about plywood - was only thinking of using it for the bottom of the hiveboxes as I could not see any joins in the diagram :) Just shows my naivity in woodworking skills I guess! Also thought perhaps it would reduce the weight of the hive and hence help with later problems in inserting boxes underneath.... but given advice, perhaps it is not such a good idea. I will see how the rations of wood work out and reach a conclusion later! I can see the problems with splitting etc.
                       
                      Thanks for your input
                       
                      Vicky

                      --- On Wed, 30/9/09, tomzboxathotmaildotcom <tomzbox@...> wrote:


                      From: tomzboxathotmaildotcom <tomzbox@...>
                      Subject: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives
                      To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, 30 September, 2009, 5:15 PM


                      --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, Ben P <benjamin.primrose@...> wrote:
                      >[Snip]...
                      > Some would berate you for plywood because of its
                      > glues and off-gassing, but you can make your own decision.   I'd let it sit
                      > for a while before I used it on a hive.

                      I built my first Warre out of plywood, and here's a pic of a very nice plywood Warre: <http://thebeespace.net/2008/08/26/brendens-warre-hive/>

                      The glue/outgassing 'problem' is actually wayyyy overblown. The glues are stable, inert and will not transfer toxins. (Plus you can buy  toxic-free plywood at most lumber yards.) The total amount of toxins in the gas released by plywood is actually far less than the amounts of other toxins your bees will bring into the hive from their normal foraging ... and that's not very much at all.

                      I decided not to build any more plywood Warres for another reason: The stuff has a tendency to split and give you ragged edges unless you behave like a master cabinet-maker when building them. Far easier to work with dimensional lumber. However plywood is a great choice for kTBHs.

                      just my $0.02, YMMV.

                      best,
                      Tom Warren
                      Pleasant Hill, OR



                      ------------------------------------

                      The group archive and other pages can be accessed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                      Yahoo! Groups Links








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Victoria Hobbs
                      Thanks for the information Tom. I have seen the ad but am delaying getting it - it is another $17 but more importantly  my guess is that the plans on offer
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 30, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks for the information Tom. I have seen the ad but am delaying getting it - it is another $17 but more importantly  my guess is that the plans on offer probably produce a great hive if one goes and buys wood to the specs given...but I still would not necessarily know how to adapt it to my available wood! That means that I am going to have to ask "silly questions" anyway! So I may as well get it over and done with and do just that...hope people do not get fed up if I ask when i hit the next hurdle, but i think i have enough information to get me started for now.
                         
                        Vicky

                        --- On Wed, 30/9/09, tomzboxathotmaildotcom <tomzbox@...> wrote:


                        From: tomzboxathotmaildotcom <tomzbox@...>
                        Subject: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives
                        To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, 30 September, 2009, 12:36 AM


                        --- In TopHive@yahoogroups.com, Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Ben,
                        >  
                        > I am more than a little confused! I have looked at all the variants on the Warre hive but as far as I can see the only one with detailed measurements are the technical instructions given for the original Warre hive. Given this, perhaps I should start with the original version!


                        Victoria,

                        Instead of that original Warre plan, here are two better detailed construction guides, both by Nick Hampshire:

                        This is his free original construction plan, which has detailed dimensions, pictures, tool lists and everything:
                        <http://thebeespace.net/2008/07/30/introduction-warre-beehive-construction-guide/>

                        This is his new improved guide with lots of extras and video access and stuff, but it'll cost you a whopping $17. (the guy has to defray his expenses somehow <g>):

                        <http://diybeehive.com/>

                        Below, I've also included his Warre measurements (in metrics, followed by a conversion to understandable real english/american inches and fractions in parentheses)

                        best,
                        Tom Warren
                        Pleasant Hill, OR


                        *********************************************
                        To build a Warre hive roof we will need to cut the following wood pieces:

                            * 2 end gables measuring 39cm long by 21cm wide (15 3/8″ long by 8 1/4″ wide)
                            * 2 sides measuring 35cm long by 12m wide (13 3/4″ long by 4 3/4″ wide)
                            * 2 roof panels measuring 50cm long by 21cm wide (19 11/16″ long by 8 1/4″ wide)
                            * 1 ridge panel measuring 50cm long by 6cm wide (19 11/16″ long by 2 3/8″ wide)
                            * 1 coverboard measuring 39cm long by 35cm wide by 1cm thick (15 3/8″ long by 13 3/4″ wide by 3/8″ thick) This cover board can be made from 3/8″ or 1/2″ thick outdoor grade plywood.

                        You will also need:

                            * Nails or screws
                            * Smaller nails or screws to fasten the coverboard

                        Take one of the end gables measuring 39cm long by 21cm wide (15 3/8″ long by 8 1/4″ wide) and lay it on your work surface. Decide which long side of the board you want to be the top. Now place a mark on each side of the board 16cm (6 5/16″) up from the bottom. If you have a combination square or speed square, set it for 72 degrees. Place the square at the mark and draw a line towards the top of the board.

                        To build a Warre hive box we will need to cut the following wood pieces:

                            * 2 long sides measuring 34cm long by 21cm wide (13 3/8″ long by 8 1/4″ wide)
                            * 2 short sides measuring 30cm long by 21cm wide (11 13/16″ long by 8 1/4″ wide)
                            * 8 topbars measuring 32cm long by 2.4cm wide by 1cm thick (12 5/8″ long by 15/16″ wide by 3/8″ thick)
                        Set the blade to a depth of 1cm. Take one of the short sides measuring 30cm long by 21cm wide (11 13/16″ long by 8 1/4″ wide) and run it through the saw lengthwise.

                        To build the Warre Hive Floor, we will need to cut the following wood pieces:

                            * 2 floor halves measuring 33.5cm long by 16.75cm wide (13 3/16″ long by 6 5/8″ wide)
                            * 2 short pieces of wood measuring 21cm long by 3cm wide (8 1/4″ long by 1 3/16″ wide)
                            * 1 landing board measuring 41cm long by 16cm wide (16 1/8″ long by 6 5/16″ wide)
                        Measuring from one edge of the board, mark the following points on the long side of the board:

                            * 10.75cm (4 1/4″)
                         22.75cm (8 15/16″)

                        To build the Warre Hive Quilt, you will need to cut the following wood pieces:

                            * 2 short sides measuring 30cm long by 10cm wide (11 13/16″ long by 3 15/16″ wide). The edge width of the board is up to you. A good size is anywhere between 20mm to 25mm (3/4″ to 1″) wide.
                            * 2 long quilt sides measuring 34cm long by 10cm wide (13 3/8″ long by 3 15/16″ wide).
                            * 1 piece of cloth measuring about 40cm by 40cm (15 3/4″ by 15 3/4″)






                        ------------------------------------

                        The group archive and other pages can be accessed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                        Yahoo! Groups Links








                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Victoria Hobbs
                        Thanks S.L. ... have decided to go for Warre hive in part because I do not have a lot of ground space so over time will probably value the option of going
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 30, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks S.L. ... have decided to go for Warre hive in part because I do not have a lot of ground space so over time will probably value the option of going vertical rather than making more top bar hives that will need more ground space....!
                           
                          Vicky

                          --- On Tue, 29/9/09, S.L. <ergonomia@...> wrote:


                          From: S.L. <ergonomia@...>
                          Subject: Re: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives
                          To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 10:20 PM


                          The Warre hives look great; I'd love to build one myself. If for some reason you decide to build a top-bar hive (non-warre style), here's a fairly simple plan from Les Crowder:

                          http://www.permaculture.org/nm/images/uploads/hive_making_plan.pdf

                          I've built this one, and I'm not particularly skilled. It could be made even simpler, I'm sure.

                          --- On Tue, 9/29/09, Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@...> wrote:

                          From: Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@...>
                          Subject: Re: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives
                          To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 4:44 PM






                           




                             
                                            Ben,

                           

                          I am more than a little confused! I have looked at all the variants on the Warre hive but as far as I can see the only one with detailed measurements  are the technical instructions given for the original Warre hive. Given this, perhaps I should start with the original version!

                           

                          3 Questions.. .which will probably make you laugh as they demonstrate my uncertainty as soon as I enter the field of wood in tandem with my inexperience of beekeeping:

                           

                          a)  I cannot work out what the last section of the specifications is there for - the feeder box - as I thought the Warre system did not believe in feeding sugar? (Also, I find this section virtually impossible to understand, whereas the others are at least somewhere near my comprehension level!) Do I need to struggle with this - or can it wait to a later stage if required?

                           

                          b) Albeit that i have limited funds, I do have some really nice bits of Merbau wood, which is probably rather deluxe for this purpose, but I imagine it should work well in principal (presume untreated as used for indoor shelving some 25 years ago, albeit that until 10 years ago it may occasionally have been polished with Briwax...not sure if this could now be a problem but that was many years ago! The wood is nice and thick (probably around the 2 cm spec) - width varies - about 9" and 12", more of the latter. The question is, would it be OK to adapt the depth of the boxes to suit available wood, or do I have to get good enough with a jigsaw and planer to reduce the width to the specified depth? It seems a shame not to use this, as it has no other purpose - I have hung onto it simply because the wood itself is so lovely!

                           

                          c) If b) deals with the sides of the boxes, the bases seem to be of one piece of wood without any joins - which presumably means they are plywood? If I only have to buy enough ply for the bases the cost should shoot right down...!



                          Vicky

                          --- On Tue, 29/9/09, Ben P <benjamin.primrose@ gmail.com> wrote:



                          From: Ben P <benjamin.primrose@ gmail.com>

                          Subject: Re: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives

                          To: TopHive@yahoogroups .com

                          Date: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 2:26 PM



                          Vicky,

                              It's a separate list--<http://uk.groups. yahoo.com/ group/warrebeeke eping/>.

                          The list is very friendly, and open to questions from all experience levels.

                              Don't let it intimidate you, I managed to build one in a few hours while

                          visiting my Mom (who has a table saw, bless her).  And I still have all of

                          my fingers, to boot.  The roof was the tricky part, mostly because I was

                          working with US-dimension rough cut lumber, instead of matching the

                          dimensions given by the Abbe.



                          Ben



                          On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Victoria Hobbs <hobbsvic@yahoo. co.uk>wrote:



                          > Ben,

                          >

                          > Sorry, just been trying to access this list: is it within the TopHive group

                          > or within a Warre Beekeeping group on yahoo?

                          >

                          > Thank you

                          >

                          > Vicky

                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------ --------- --------- ------



                          The group archive and other pages can be accessed at http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/TopHive

                          Yahoo! Groups Links



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                               

                             
                             
                             
                               
                             
                             








                             


                             
                             


                               

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

                          The group archive and other pages can be accessed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                          Yahoo! Groups Links








                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ben P
                          Vicky, I envy you your swarms:) David Heaf just updated his site with feeder pictures, http://warre.biobees.com/feeders.htm, shows a few options. It s a good
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 1, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Vicky,
                            I envy you your swarms:) David Heaf just updated his site with feeder
                            pictures, http://warre.biobees.com/feeders.htm, shows a few options. It's a
                            good site for general info.
                            Ben


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Victoria Hobbs
                            Ben, I like David s pictures! Jazzy colour scheme too - wonder what bee-safe paints he used! Illuminates the feeder issue. I keep looking ad David s bit of the
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 1, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Ben, I like David's pictures! Jazzy colour scheme too - wonder what bee-safe paints he used! Illuminates the feeder issue. I keep looking ad David's bit of the site given that he is based in the UK - shame Wales is a bit different from a London environment from a bee perspective - though I am told that honey produced in London is really high quality generally.... Wales still sounds more bee friendly somehow! Thanks for letting me know about the update.
                               
                              Vicky

                              --- On Thu, 1/10/09, Ben P <benjamin.primrose@...> wrote:


                              From: Ben P <benjamin.primrose@...>
                              Subject: Re: [TopHive] Re: alternative materials for making hives
                              To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, 1 October, 2009, 3:19 PM


                              Vicky,
                                  I envy you your swarms:)  David Heaf just updated his site with feeder
                              pictures, http://warre.biobees.com/feeders.htm, shows a few options.  It's a
                              good site for general info.
                              Ben


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              ------------------------------------

                              The group archive and other pages can be accessed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
                              Yahoo! Groups Links








                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • OOWONBS@Netscape.net
                              Ben, Tom, Vicki, all; great inputs of late. Plywood may split all over if non-marine grade plywood, which is costly and generally not very available, esp in
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 1, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Ben, Tom, Vicki, all; great inputs of late.

                                Plywood may split all over if non-marine grade plywood, which
                                is costly and generally not very available, esp in pieces or
                                sections that are pieces cut off the 4x8 sheets. In he US we
                                have stores that sell 4x4 and 2x2 and even 2x2 ft pieces/pcs.

                                Folks hate having paint inside a hive, and a plywood floor can,
                                in some seasons in some climates, get very wet. Some Warre'
                                & other top bars and many Langs add a bottom screen.

                                If so, and if your paint issue was not offgassing, just contact,
                                then they would not be ON the floor, and you could paint it or
                                wax treat it with hot wax or paraffin.

                                For other outdoor uses, I like epoxy resin. (Think, fiberglass
                                like a boat, but w/o the glass fibers.) This does offgass, but
                                I haven't had time to research how bad it is over time. it is
                                a 2 part, you add a catalyst and you have 15 minutes to
                                2 hrs to apply it... depending on how much you know how
                                to manipulate the catalyst and the weather. It sure is purdy.
                                The light amber clear 9you can get pigments) let's the wood
                                show through. It would sure waterproof a plywood edge or
                                floor, or a roof... ;>) And it's essentially a glue, so a painted
                                joint would be stronger, before or after assembly. there
                                are 2 common sources (mfrs) I know.

                                Warre' hive deoth is not critical... but a deeper box/body
                                lends itself less well to flexibility of swapping out a box.
                                You have to wait longer for it to fill, and you harvest more,
                                leaving less therefore, when you harvest.

                                BUT, you could pop the top and just steal a couple top bars,
                                if you do not nail the top bars in place as Warre' did. the
                                US frowns on fixed frames/top bars. They are considered
                                unsafe tio the bee community at large as they cannot be
                                as readily removed for close inspection by you or an
                                inspector.

                                The original was made to be an 18 liter box, with a volume
                                of 2 quarts shy of 10 gallons. This was (and potentially
                                valuable info for non-Warre's) because Warre', who had
                                tens of hives per dozens of each hive type with which to
                                study, and being a monk, (Abby) he had time on his hands,
                                (no giggles, here plz,) and observed that this was the
                                minimum best allowable size for a healthy colony.

                                I've kind of forgotten the volumes of most Trapezoidal
                                Top Bar hives, or Kenyans, or Langs. Anyone? Or handy
                                dimensions? ANyway, with smaller (~8 1/4" tall) Warre'
                                bodies, youi can swap out more often, and steal honey
                                more often, doing less each time. I believe I recall that
                                a full box is 25KG or 50 lbs +/-. As I approach 60 and
                                feel much younger, I still realize that I will appreciate
                                less weight, regardless of the neat lifts you can make.

                                Wow. 1x1 ft inside and 16 3/4" tall, inside, for the old
                                1-box original prototype Warre', which is 16 1'2 inches
                                in the 2-box version. (Minus the insulating roof/etc.)
                                That is what he considered a minimum sustainable hive.
                                barely enough for brood and THEIR own honey stores.

                                It is interesting to consider, esp as compared to a
                                practical hive, where we need more room so they can
                                store enough so we can take some, a box at a time.

                                Something to consider Vicki, as to hive depth, Lang users
                                use mediums or shallows for honey "supers." Deeps hold
                                the brood, and are ~ 9" tall. But the brood stays there.

                                In Warre', brood is as in a tree cavity. It continually
                                hatches and moves downward as honey backfills way
                                up, where the older lain eggs hatch out. The bottom
                                box does not stay put. It moves upward. Smaller honey
                                boxes can be harvested more often. Are lighter. Too
                                small (short) has many top bars to impede bees. But
                                it has been done. My compromise is a top bar that is
                                more vertical than the traditional design.

                                Taking less at a time is better for the bees. When the
                                boxes get too shallow, some feel that the bees have
                                to go through too many top bars, something that nature
                                puts few of in tree cavities. (Some beeks are "going
                                native." No top bars. Once in a while, a "spale." It's
                                like 1 top bar, but only 1/8th as many, and at odd
                                varying angles. Less to impede the bees, but some
                                occasional support.

                                BillSF9c
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.