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Reading Tolkien changes my outlook

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  • Terry
    I realized something today while reading Lost Tales for the first time. I was at the laundry mat washing clothes reading the chapter The coming of the
    Message 1 of 10 , May 31, 2003
      I realized something today while reading 'Lost Tales' for the first
      time. I was at the laundry mat washing clothes reading the
      chapter 'The coming of the Elves', the beauty and majesty of the
      story was awe inspiring! BUT at the same time there was a television
      in the laundry mat blairing out a popular 'sit com' in which the
      characters traded mean insults and put downs to a laugh track. As I
      read the wonderfull tale I could not help but feel deepest contempt
      for the low brow garbage that passes for tv. I am not a snob or a
      privilidged type, I am a lower class working white man living in a
      neighborhood fast becoming a mexican ghetto. I came to realize that
      Tolkiens books are some of the most beautifull and pleasant things I
      have ever been exposed to, some of the best things in my life. After
      reading Tolkien I have been changed, I can never again tolerate the
      mindless drivel that spews from tv or the empty chatter that most of
      radio is. The hostile aggressive filth known as rap music{?}is the
      most lothsome and degenrate thing I know, after being exposed to the
      beauty of Tolkiens world how can one feel anything but contempt
      towards 'hip-hop'? Has Tolkien raised be up or improved me in some
      way with his stories even though they are just make belive?
    • Jack
      Quite right Terry. Turn off the TV, it s not worth watching Regards Jack ... From: Terry [mailto:tfar192000@yahoo.com] Sent: 01 June 2003 07:04 To:
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
        Quite right Terry.
        Turn off the TV, it's not worth watching
        Regards
        Jack
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Terry [mailto:tfar192000@...]
        Sent: 01 June 2003 07:04
        To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Reading Tolkien changes my outlook


        I realized something today while reading 'Lost Tales' for the first
        time. I was at the laundry mat washing clothes reading the
        chapter 'The coming of the Elves', the beauty and majesty of the
        story was awe inspiring! BUT at the same time there was a television
        in the laundry mat blairing out a popular 'sit com' in which the
        characters traded mean insults and put downs to a laugh track. As I
        read the wonderfull tale I could not help but feel deepest contempt
        for the low brow garbage that passes for tv. I am not a snob or a
        privilidged type, I am a lower class working white man living in a
        neighborhood fast becoming a mexican ghetto. I came to realize that
        Tolkiens books are some of the most beautifull and pleasant things I
        have ever been exposed to, some of the best things in my life. After
        reading Tolkien I have been changed, I can never again tolerate the
        mindless drivel that spews from tv or the empty chatter that most of
        radio is. The hostile aggressive filth known as rap music{?}is the
        most lothsome and degenrate thing I know, after being exposed to the
        beauty of Tolkiens world how can one feel anything but contempt
        towards 'hip-hop'? Has Tolkien raised be up or improved me in some
        way with his stories even though they are just make belive?


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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • david schnyer
        has tolkein raised you up ? i m not so sure terry, i would say the feelings you state were there already, a perhaps subconscious knowledge that there was, or
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
          "has tolkein raised you up"? i'm not so sure
          terry, i would say the feelings you state were
          there already, a perhaps subconscious knowledge
          that there was, or had to be, something better
          and you found it in tolkein's books. for what
          it's worth i'm not "educated" in the formal sense
          either but i share much of your disgust with
          current "popular culture" most of which, to
          borrow a russian phrase is "nye kulturni". at the
          moment i'm reserving my entertainment budget for
          december when the third "ring" film comes to the
          theatres, possibly the next harry potter film and
          the next "star wars" film if i last that long.
          anyway welcome aboard, they're a good bunch here.
          "gunner"

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        • Mike Hayes
          Terry, You could not have said it better!!! I too feel that Tolkien has uplifted me and enriched me in countless ways. On the economic and social scale
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
            Terry,

            You could not have said it better!!! I too feel that Tolkien has
            uplifted me and enriched me in countless ways.

            On the economic and social scale perhaps many of us may be on the
            lower end, or near the bottom to be sure, but aahhhh, spiritually my
            friend, and soulfully we soar above the dreary and tedious ignorance
            of this world.

            I share your loathing for "popular culture" as well.

            I think those who have experienced Tolkien's works share common
            growing experiences. Namely the maturing of our spirit. But even
            more so, the appreciation for the simple, the appreciation of the
            quiet, and the internal dignity of the individual and respect for
            others.

            Above all perhaps, I think Tolkien's books have quite literally
            stabilized me. I respect nature, I do not litter, I do not offend my
            neighbors with loud and busy music at times when I know they wish for
            some peace and quiet. I appreciate a simple Sunday morning breakfast
            as Bilbo did. I conserve resources whenever I can. A walk down a
            country road in the fall is worth a million dollars to me. For many
            people, these things mean nothing, for me they mean EVERYTHING. And
            I owe much of these values that I hold dear to Tolkien himself. I
            wonder if he realizes the impact he has had.

            I really think Tolkien's works are bound to increase in relevance for
            this world.

            To quote Tolkien's "The Hobbit", "When there was less noise and more
            green" in the world, I think sums it up for me.

            To me popular culture represents the "noise" of the world. People
            seem to not know how to just be quiet or patient. A drive on any of
            our highways will quickly clue you in as to how much patience our
            culture has for taking time doing anything. Practically none.
            People have diffrent tastes in things, of course, but this goes far
            beyond that. Have you noticed that popular culture never seems to be
            patient or quiet? It's always about the next quick fix, the next
            half-hour, the next instant thrill!! You're told you MUST have this
            candy bar! Move! Move! Move! Entertain me, and then get the hell
            out of my way..... Hip hop music for me is simply "noise". Sorry if
            this is offensive to anyone, but I don't say it from a racist
            standpoint. I say it as a person with a love of the quiet and things
            taken in measure. To me hip-hop, is ignorant noise, like orc drums
            beating in the middle of the night when people just want some peace.
            There, I said it. And the reason I classify it as such, is because
            99.99999% of those people who listen to it, BLACK AND WHITE, play it
            without regard for those around them, and at a volume that sucks all
            the peace and tranquility out of the atmosphere. You call it music?
            I call it orc noise. Pure and simple. It's garbage. And the people
            whoe play it are orcs. Those who produce the music and perform the
            music and lyrics are the ringwraiths.

            People jump out of their seats the instant a movie is over. Listen
            to the music and watch the credits after the movie is over? No time
            for that! Read a book? No time for that either! They even have to
            bring cell phones into the theatre with them now. They can't even
            break away from the "noise" for a couple hours in a movie theatre.
            People seem to care not for your safety on the road, get out of their
            way, because they have some place to be!! And they have to be on a
            cell phone talking to the person they are hurtling towards at deadly
            speed. People seem to be losing touch with their souls, I swear to
            God they are. They can't seem to slow down for an instant, and hurry
            here and there, and waste and destroy and damage and insult all that
            comes across their path. It's simple: the person who tailgates on
            the highway is an orc. The person who litters is an orc. The person
            who bumps into you and then blames you for it for being there is an
            orc.


            For me, Tolkien's world holds some very clear equivalents. The Ring,
            and its minions, the Orcs, goblins, all the forces of evil. They
            represent "noise", haste, insults, destruction, rudeness,
            intolerance, impatience. In our world Orcs are everywhere, but in
            human form I'm afraid!! There is a "hidden orc" in all of us, and
            our popular culture I believe feeds that orc, even if it's only on
            the level of gluttony, selfnishness, wastefulness. These things are
            as evil in my eyes as anything else.

            It is strange that while the free countries of this world prosper,
            yet at the same time many of the forces that drive that "prosperity"
            are so deadly negative. In America this can be seen more and more
            every day. America, while still a great place to live, and still a
            place of freedom thank god, it is becoming a part of the world in
            which people many times seem to act more like orcs and Ringwraiths
            than they do elves and hobbits. And while that may sound comical to
            some, to me it is deadly serious, and disturbing.

            Tolkien is telling us it is our duty as human beings to suppress the
            orc in us, to do all we can to defy that instinct to waste and
            destroy. He is telling us that we must look to the elves, and
            emulate them, to keep as much "green" in the world as possible, and
            to protect what green we still have. That could be as simple as not
            trampling on a flower, it could be as simple as not littering. It
            could be as simple as driving sanely, and calmly without putting
            others in danger because of our haste and selfishness.

            Today in the world, there are pockets of elves and hobbits. The
            Amish, monasteries, cloysters, small communities and places where
            people try to preseve the quiet and the green. And just as in
            Tolkien's world, the forces that oppose them are powerful and
            massive, like a machine. And there are individuals like us, who try
            our best to the elf, the hobbit, and not the orc. It is a difficult
            journey.

            Yes, I live in this society, I use many of the same products and
            services, and I drive our roads and interact with people. But I
            always try to be more like a hobbit and an elf when I do any of these
            things. I think to myself, what would a hobbit think of this? What
            would an elf do? The answers come pretty quickly.

            It's frightening that people can scoff at something like Tolkien, and
            assume there's nothing to learn from it. My God, it has shaped my
            whole life, down to the core of my soul.

            Tolkien's books have changed me forever. I'm not perfect, not even
            close. But I like to think that there is hope still in the world,
            and that in some small way I am contributing to that hope, not taking
            away from it. I like to think that the spirit of Tolkien is alive,
            and moving through us all, and speaking to us, if we would only stop
            and listen.

            MH

            --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Terry" <tfar192000@y...>
            wrote:
            > I realized something today while reading 'Lost Tales' for the first
            > time. I was at the laundry mat washing clothes reading the
            > chapter 'The coming of the Elves', the beauty and majesty of the
            > story was awe inspiring! BUT at the same time there was a
            television
            > in the laundry mat blairing out a popular 'sit com' in which the
            > characters traded mean insults and put downs to a laugh track. As I
            > read the wonderfull tale I could not help but feel deepest contempt
            > for the low brow garbage that passes for tv. I am not a snob or a
            > privilidged type, I am a lower class working white man living in a
            > neighborhood fast becoming a mexican ghetto. I came to realize that
            > Tolkiens books are some of the most beautifull and pleasant things
            I
            > have ever been exposed to, some of the best things in my life.
            After
            > reading Tolkien I have been changed, I can never again tolerate the
            > mindless drivel that spews from tv or the empty chatter that most
            of
            > radio is. The hostile aggressive filth known as rap music{?}is the
            > most lothsome and degenrate thing I know, after being exposed to
            the
            > beauty of Tolkiens world how can one feel anything but contempt
            > towards 'hip-hop'? Has Tolkien raised be up or improved me in some
            > way with his stories even though they are just make belive?
          • Mike Hayes
            I would think a disdain for hip-hop would almost be a given for a lover of Tolkien!! As for TV, I couldn t agree more. It s better to have it off and take in
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
              I would think a disdain for hip-hop would almost be a given for a
              lover of Tolkien!! As for TV, I couldn't agree more. It's better to
              have it off and take in the quiet.

              MH



              --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Terry" <tfar192000@y...>
              wrote:
              > I realized something today while reading 'Lost Tales' for the first
              > time. I was at the laundry mat washing clothes reading the
              > chapter 'The coming of the Elves', the beauty and majesty of the
              > story was awe inspiring! BUT at the same time there was a
              television
              > in the laundry mat blairing out a popular 'sit com' in which the
              > characters traded mean insults and put downs to a laugh track. As I
              > read the wonderfull tale I could not help but feel deepest contempt
              > for the low brow garbage that passes for tv. I am not a snob or a
              > privilidged type, I am a lower class working white man living in a
              > neighborhood fast becoming a mexican ghetto. I came to realize that
              > Tolkiens books are some of the most beautifull and pleasant things
              I
              > have ever been exposed to, some of the best things in my life.
              After
              > reading Tolkien I have been changed, I can never again tolerate the
              > mindless drivel that spews from tv or the empty chatter that most
              of
              > radio is. The hostile aggressive filth known as rap music{?}is the
              > most lothsome and degenrate thing I know, after being exposed to
              the
              > beauty of Tolkiens world how can one feel anything but contempt
              > towards 'hip-hop'? Has Tolkien raised be up or improved me in some
              > way with his stories even though they are just make belive?
            • Tripleleo60@cs.com
              In a message dated 6/1/03 12:03:58 AM Mountain Daylight Time, ... Yes. Having said that I agree with you fully on the quality of the mass media. That s one
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
                In a message dated 6/1/03 12:03:58 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
                tfar192000@... writes:


                > Has Tolkien raised be up or improved me in some
                > way with his stories even though they are just make belive?
                >

                Yes.

                Having said that I agree with you fully on the "quality" of the mass media.
                That's one reason that I was concerned when I first heard about Jackson's LOTR
                project, but fortunately my fears were groundless.

                But getting back to mass media I have one more thought: Woe to the Republic.

                Sir Question of the Mark, K of T.

                Aure entuluva!



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • david schnyer
                quite a long rant mike, but a good one, and i for one didn t take your comments on orcs as racist . as you say, orcs come in all sorts and colours, it s a
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
                  quite a long rant mike, but a good one, and i for
                  one didn't take your comments on "orcs" as
                  "racist". as you say, orcs come in all sorts and
                  colours, it's a behavior pattern not specific to
                  any single group by skin colour or ethnic origin.
                  "gunner"

                  __________________________________
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                  Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                  http://calendar.yahoo.com
                • Cat
                  Terry and MH, Amen! I couldn t have said it better. I wish the world of Tolkien was real and that I lived in it, for his world is where my heart is. Ren ... my
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
                    Terry and MH, Amen! I couldn't have said it better. I wish the world
                    of Tolkien was real and that I lived in it, for his world is where my
                    heart is.

                    Ren


                    --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hayes"
                    <MRGRANT1863@a...> wrote:
                    > Terry,
                    >
                    > You could not have said it better!!! I too feel that Tolkien has
                    > uplifted me and enriched me in countless ways.
                    >
                    > On the economic and social scale perhaps many of us may be on the
                    > lower end, or near the bottom to be sure, but aahhhh, spiritually
                    my
                    > friend, and soulfully we soar above the dreary and tedious
                    ignorance
                    > of this world.
                    >
                    > I share your loathing for "popular culture" as well.
                    >
                    > I think those who have experienced Tolkien's works share common
                    > growing experiences. Namely the maturing of our spirit. But even
                    > more so, the appreciation for the simple, the appreciation of the
                    > quiet, and the internal dignity of the individual and respect for
                    > others.
                    >
                    > Above all perhaps, I think Tolkien's books have quite literally
                    > stabilized me. I respect nature, I do not litter, I do not offend
                    my
                    > neighbors with loud and busy music at times when I know they wish
                    for
                    > some peace and quiet. I appreciate a simple Sunday morning
                    breakfast
                    > as Bilbo did. I conserve resources whenever I can. A walk down a
                    > country road in the fall is worth a million dollars to me. For
                    many
                    > people, these things mean nothing, for me they mean EVERYTHING.
                    And
                    > I owe much of these values that I hold dear to Tolkien himself. I
                    > wonder if he realizes the impact he has had.
                    >
                    > I really think Tolkien's works are bound to increase in relevance
                    for
                    > this world.
                    >
                    > To quote Tolkien's "The Hobbit", "When there was less noise and
                    more
                    > green" in the world, I think sums it up for me.
                    >
                    > To me popular culture represents the "noise" of the world. People
                    > seem to not know how to just be quiet or patient. A drive on any
                    of
                    > our highways will quickly clue you in as to how much patience our
                    > culture has for taking time doing anything. Practically none.
                    > People have diffrent tastes in things, of course, but this goes far
                    > beyond that. Have you noticed that popular culture never seems to
                    be
                    > patient or quiet? It's always about the next quick fix, the next
                    > half-hour, the next instant thrill!! You're told you MUST have
                    this
                    > candy bar! Move! Move! Move! Entertain me, and then get the
                    hell
                    > out of my way..... Hip hop music for me is simply "noise". Sorry
                    if
                    > this is offensive to anyone, but I don't say it from a racist
                    > standpoint. I say it as a person with a love of the quiet and
                    things
                    > taken in measure. To me hip-hop, is ignorant noise, like orc drums
                    > beating in the middle of the night when people just want some
                    peace.
                    > There, I said it. And the reason I classify it as such, is because
                    > 99.99999% of those people who listen to it, BLACK AND WHITE, play
                    it
                    > without regard for those around them, and at a volume that sucks
                    all
                    > the peace and tranquility out of the atmosphere. You call it
                    music?
                    > I call it orc noise. Pure and simple. It's garbage. And the
                    people
                    > whoe play it are orcs. Those who produce the music and perform the
                    > music and lyrics are the ringwraiths.
                    >
                    > People jump out of their seats the instant a movie is over. Listen
                    > to the music and watch the credits after the movie is over? No
                    time
                    > for that! Read a book? No time for that either! They even have
                    to
                    > bring cell phones into the theatre with them now. They can't even
                    > break away from the "noise" for a couple hours in a movie theatre.
                    > People seem to care not for your safety on the road, get out of
                    their
                    > way, because they have some place to be!! And they have to be on a
                    > cell phone talking to the person they are hurtling towards at
                    deadly
                    > speed. People seem to be losing touch with their souls, I swear to
                    > God they are. They can't seem to slow down for an instant, and
                    hurry
                    > here and there, and waste and destroy and damage and insult all
                    that
                    > comes across their path. It's simple: the person who tailgates on
                    > the highway is an orc. The person who litters is an orc. The
                    person
                    > who bumps into you and then blames you for it for being there is an
                    > orc.
                    >
                    >
                    > For me, Tolkien's world holds some very clear equivalents. The
                    Ring,
                    > and its minions, the Orcs, goblins, all the forces of evil. They
                    > represent "noise", haste, insults, destruction, rudeness,
                    > intolerance, impatience. In our world Orcs are everywhere, but in
                    > human form I'm afraid!! There is a "hidden orc" in all of us, and
                    > our popular culture I believe feeds that orc, even if it's only on
                    > the level of gluttony, selfnishness, wastefulness. These things
                    are
                    > as evil in my eyes as anything else.
                    >
                    > It is strange that while the free countries of this world prosper,
                    > yet at the same time many of the forces that drive
                    that "prosperity"
                    > are so deadly negative. In America this can be seen more and more
                    > every day. America, while still a great place to live, and still a
                    > place of freedom thank god, it is becoming a part of the world in
                    > which people many times seem to act more like orcs and Ringwraiths
                    > than they do elves and hobbits. And while that may sound comical
                    to
                    > some, to me it is deadly serious, and disturbing.
                    >
                    > Tolkien is telling us it is our duty as human beings to suppress
                    the
                    > orc in us, to do all we can to defy that instinct to waste and
                    > destroy. He is telling us that we must look to the elves, and
                    > emulate them, to keep as much "green" in the world as possible, and
                    > to protect what green we still have. That could be as simple as
                    not
                    > trampling on a flower, it could be as simple as not littering. It
                    > could be as simple as driving sanely, and calmly without putting
                    > others in danger because of our haste and selfishness.
                    >
                    > Today in the world, there are pockets of elves and hobbits. The
                    > Amish, monasteries, cloysters, small communities and places where
                    > people try to preseve the quiet and the green. And just as in
                    > Tolkien's world, the forces that oppose them are powerful and
                    > massive, like a machine. And there are individuals like us, who
                    try
                    > our best to the elf, the hobbit, and not the orc. It is a
                    difficult
                    > journey.
                    >
                    > Yes, I live in this society, I use many of the same products and
                    > services, and I drive our roads and interact with people. But I
                    > always try to be more like a hobbit and an elf when I do any of
                    these
                    > things. I think to myself, what would a hobbit think of this?
                    What
                    > would an elf do? The answers come pretty quickly.
                    >
                    > It's frightening that people can scoff at something like Tolkien,
                    and
                    > assume there's nothing to learn from it. My God, it has shaped my
                    > whole life, down to the core of my soul.
                    >
                    > Tolkien's books have changed me forever. I'm not perfect, not even
                    > close. But I like to think that there is hope still in the world,
                    > and that in some small way I am contributing to that hope, not
                    taking
                    > away from it. I like to think that the spirit of Tolkien is alive,
                    > and moving through us all, and speaking to us, if we would only
                    stop
                    > and listen.
                    >
                    > MH
                    >
                    > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Terry"
                    <tfar192000@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > I realized something today while reading 'Lost Tales' for the
                    first
                    > > time. I was at the laundry mat washing clothes reading the
                    > > chapter 'The coming of the Elves', the beauty and majesty of the
                    > > story was awe inspiring! BUT at the same time there was a
                    > television
                    > > in the laundry mat blairing out a popular 'sit com' in which the
                    > > characters traded mean insults and put downs to a laugh track. As
                    I
                    > > read the wonderfull tale I could not help but feel deepest
                    contempt
                    > > for the low brow garbage that passes for tv. I am not a snob or a
                    > > privilidged type, I am a lower class working white man living in
                    a
                    > > neighborhood fast becoming a mexican ghetto. I came to realize
                    that
                    > > Tolkiens books are some of the most beautifull and pleasant
                    things
                    > I
                    > > have ever been exposed to, some of the best things in my life.
                    > After
                    > > reading Tolkien I have been changed, I can never again tolerate
                    the
                    > > mindless drivel that spews from tv or the empty chatter that most
                    > of
                    > > radio is. The hostile aggressive filth known as rap music{?}is
                    the
                    > > most lothsome and degenrate thing I know, after being exposed to
                    > the
                    > > beauty of Tolkiens world how can one feel anything but contempt
                    > > towards 'hip-hop'? Has Tolkien raised be up or improved me in
                    some
                    > > way with his stories even though they are just make belive?
                  • Mike Hayes
                    Good to hear from you Ren. ... world ... my ... even ... offend ... a ... I ... People ... far ... Sorry ... drums ... because ... the ... Listen ... even ...
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
                      Good to hear from you Ren.



                      --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Cat" <webmaster@r...>
                      wrote:
                      > Terry and MH, Amen! I couldn't have said it better. I wish the
                      world
                      > of Tolkien was real and that I lived in it, for his world is where
                      my
                      > heart is.
                      >
                      > Ren
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hayes"
                      > <MRGRANT1863@a...> wrote:
                      > > Terry,
                      > >
                      > > You could not have said it better!!! I too feel that Tolkien has
                      > > uplifted me and enriched me in countless ways.
                      > >
                      > > On the economic and social scale perhaps many of us may be on the
                      > > lower end, or near the bottom to be sure, but aahhhh, spiritually
                      > my
                      > > friend, and soulfully we soar above the dreary and tedious
                      > ignorance
                      > > of this world.
                      > >
                      > > I share your loathing for "popular culture" as well.
                      > >
                      > > I think those who have experienced Tolkien's works share common
                      > > growing experiences. Namely the maturing of our spirit. But
                      even
                      > > more so, the appreciation for the simple, the appreciation of the
                      > > quiet, and the internal dignity of the individual and respect for
                      > > others.
                      > >
                      > > Above all perhaps, I think Tolkien's books have quite literally
                      > > stabilized me. I respect nature, I do not litter, I do not
                      offend
                      > my
                      > > neighbors with loud and busy music at times when I know they wish
                      > for
                      > > some peace and quiet. I appreciate a simple Sunday morning
                      > breakfast
                      > > as Bilbo did. I conserve resources whenever I can. A walk down
                      a
                      > > country road in the fall is worth a million dollars to me. For
                      > many
                      > > people, these things mean nothing, for me they mean EVERYTHING.
                      > And
                      > > I owe much of these values that I hold dear to Tolkien himself.
                      I
                      > > wonder if he realizes the impact he has had.
                      > >
                      > > I really think Tolkien's works are bound to increase in relevance
                      > for
                      > > this world.
                      > >
                      > > To quote Tolkien's "The Hobbit", "When there was less noise and
                      > more
                      > > green" in the world, I think sums it up for me.
                      > >
                      > > To me popular culture represents the "noise" of the world.
                      People
                      > > seem to not know how to just be quiet or patient. A drive on any
                      > of
                      > > our highways will quickly clue you in as to how much patience our
                      > > culture has for taking time doing anything. Practically none.
                      > > People have diffrent tastes in things, of course, but this goes
                      far
                      > > beyond that. Have you noticed that popular culture never seems to
                      > be
                      > > patient or quiet? It's always about the next quick fix, the next
                      > > half-hour, the next instant thrill!! You're told you MUST have
                      > this
                      > > candy bar! Move! Move! Move! Entertain me, and then get the
                      > hell
                      > > out of my way..... Hip hop music for me is simply "noise".
                      Sorry
                      > if
                      > > this is offensive to anyone, but I don't say it from a racist
                      > > standpoint. I say it as a person with a love of the quiet and
                      > things
                      > > taken in measure. To me hip-hop, is ignorant noise, like orc
                      drums
                      > > beating in the middle of the night when people just want some
                      > peace.
                      > > There, I said it. And the reason I classify it as such, is
                      because
                      > > 99.99999% of those people who listen to it, BLACK AND WHITE, play
                      > it
                      > > without regard for those around them, and at a volume that sucks
                      > all
                      > > the peace and tranquility out of the atmosphere. You call it
                      > music?
                      > > I call it orc noise. Pure and simple. It's garbage. And the
                      > people
                      > > whoe play it are orcs. Those who produce the music and perform
                      the
                      > > music and lyrics are the ringwraiths.
                      > >
                      > > People jump out of their seats the instant a movie is over.
                      Listen
                      > > to the music and watch the credits after the movie is over? No
                      > time
                      > > for that! Read a book? No time for that either! They even have
                      > to
                      > > bring cell phones into the theatre with them now. They can't
                      even
                      > > break away from the "noise" for a couple hours in a movie
                      theatre.
                      > > People seem to care not for your safety on the road, get out of
                      > their
                      > > way, because they have some place to be!! And they have to be on
                      a
                      > > cell phone talking to the person they are hurtling towards at
                      > deadly
                      > > speed. People seem to be losing touch with their souls, I swear
                      to
                      > > God they are. They can't seem to slow down for an instant, and
                      > hurry
                      > > here and there, and waste and destroy and damage and insult all
                      > that
                      > > comes across their path. It's simple: the person who tailgates
                      on
                      > > the highway is an orc. The person who litters is an orc. The
                      > person
                      > > who bumps into you and then blames you for it for being there is
                      an
                      > > orc.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > For me, Tolkien's world holds some very clear equivalents. The
                      > Ring,
                      > > and its minions, the Orcs, goblins, all the forces of evil. They
                      > > represent "noise", haste, insults, destruction, rudeness,
                      > > intolerance, impatience. In our world Orcs are everywhere, but
                      in
                      > > human form I'm afraid!! There is a "hidden orc" in all of us,
                      and
                      > > our popular culture I believe feeds that orc, even if it's only
                      on
                      > > the level of gluttony, selfnishness, wastefulness. These things
                      > are
                      > > as evil in my eyes as anything else.
                      > >
                      > > It is strange that while the free countries of this world
                      prosper,
                      > > yet at the same time many of the forces that drive
                      > that "prosperity"
                      > > are so deadly negative. In America this can be seen more and
                      more
                      > > every day. America, while still a great place to live, and still
                      a
                      > > place of freedom thank god, it is becoming a part of the world in
                      > > which people many times seem to act more like orcs and
                      Ringwraiths
                      > > than they do elves and hobbits. And while that may sound comical
                      > to
                      > > some, to me it is deadly serious, and disturbing.
                      > >
                      > > Tolkien is telling us it is our duty as human beings to suppress
                      > the
                      > > orc in us, to do all we can to defy that instinct to waste and
                      > > destroy. He is telling us that we must look to the elves, and
                      > > emulate them, to keep as much "green" in the world as possible,
                      and
                      > > to protect what green we still have. That could be as simple as
                      > not
                      > > trampling on a flower, it could be as simple as not littering.
                      It
                      > > could be as simple as driving sanely, and calmly without putting
                      > > others in danger because of our haste and selfishness.
                      > >
                      > > Today in the world, there are pockets of elves and hobbits. The
                      > > Amish, monasteries, cloysters, small communities and places where
                      > > people try to preseve the quiet and the green. And just as in
                      > > Tolkien's world, the forces that oppose them are powerful and
                      > > massive, like a machine. And there are individuals like us, who
                      > try
                      > > our best to the elf, the hobbit, and not the orc. It is a
                      > difficult
                      > > journey.
                      > >
                      > > Yes, I live in this society, I use many of the same products and
                      > > services, and I drive our roads and interact with people. But I
                      > > always try to be more like a hobbit and an elf when I do any of
                      > these
                      > > things. I think to myself, what would a hobbit think of this?
                      > What
                      > > would an elf do? The answers come pretty quickly.
                      > >
                      > > It's frightening that people can scoff at something like Tolkien,
                      > and
                      > > assume there's nothing to learn from it. My God, it has shaped
                      my
                      > > whole life, down to the core of my soul.
                      > >
                      > > Tolkien's books have changed me forever. I'm not perfect, not
                      even
                      > > close. But I like to think that there is hope still in the
                      world,
                      > > and that in some small way I am contributing to that hope, not
                      > taking
                      > > away from it. I like to think that the spirit of Tolkien is
                      alive,
                      > > and moving through us all, and speaking to us, if we would only
                      > stop
                      > > and listen.
                      > >
                      > > MH
                      > >
                      > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Terry"
                      > <tfar192000@y...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > I realized something today while reading 'Lost Tales' for the
                      > first
                      > > > time. I was at the laundry mat washing clothes reading the
                      > > > chapter 'The coming of the Elves', the beauty and majesty of
                      the
                      > > > story was awe inspiring! BUT at the same time there was a
                      > > television
                      > > > in the laundry mat blairing out a popular 'sit com' in which
                      the
                      > > > characters traded mean insults and put downs to a laugh track.
                      As
                      > I
                      > > > read the wonderfull tale I could not help but feel deepest
                      > contempt
                      > > > for the low brow garbage that passes for tv. I am not a snob or
                      a
                      > > > privilidged type, I am a lower class working white man living
                      in
                      > a
                      > > > neighborhood fast becoming a mexican ghetto. I came to realize
                      > that
                      > > > Tolkiens books are some of the most beautifull and pleasant
                      > things
                      > > I
                      > > > have ever been exposed to, some of the best things in my life.
                      > > After
                      > > > reading Tolkien I have been changed, I can never again tolerate
                      > the
                      > > > mindless drivel that spews from tv or the empty chatter that
                      most
                      > > of
                      > > > radio is. The hostile aggressive filth known as rap music{?}is
                      > the
                      > > > most lothsome and degenrate thing I know, after being exposed
                      to
                      > > the
                      > > > beauty of Tolkiens world how can one feel anything but contempt
                      > > > towards 'hip-hop'? Has Tolkien raised be up or improved me in
                      > some
                      > > > way with his stories even though they are just make belive?
                    • bungo_burrows
                      Add my Amen to the chorus. How could the world not be improved if it had been created in Tolkien s image. But then again, it probably was and look at how it
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jun 2, 2003
                        Add my Amen to the chorus. How could the world not be improved if it
                        had been created in Tolkien's image. But then again, it probably was
                        and look at how it has been hacked and butchered by mankind. We would
                        have still found some way to screw it up.

                        bungo

                        --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Cat" <webmaster@r...>
                        wrote:
                        > Terry and MH, Amen! I couldn't have said it better. I wish the
                        world
                        > of Tolkien was real and that I lived in it, for his world is where
                        my
                        > heart is.
                        >
                        > Ren
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hayes"
                        > <MRGRANT1863@a...> wrote:
                        > > Terry,
                        > >
                        > > You could not have said it better!!! I too feel that Tolkien has
                        > > uplifted me and enriched me in countless ways.
                        > >
                        > > On the economic and social scale perhaps many of us may be on the
                        > > lower end, or near the bottom to be sure, but aahhhh, spiritually
                        > my
                        > > friend, and soulfully we soar above the dreary and tedious
                        > ignorance
                        > > of this world.
                        > >
                        > > I share your loathing for "popular culture" as well.
                        > >
                        > > I think those who have experienced Tolkien's works share common
                        > > growing experiences. Namely the maturing of our spirit. But
                        even
                        > > more so, the appreciation for the simple, the appreciation of the
                        > > quiet, and the internal dignity of the individual and respect for
                        > > others.
                        > >
                        > > Above all perhaps, I think Tolkien's books have quite literally
                        > > stabilized me. I respect nature, I do not litter, I do not
                        offend
                        > my
                        > > neighbors with loud and busy music at times when I know they wish
                        > for
                        > > some peace and quiet. I appreciate a simple Sunday morning
                        > breakfast
                        > > as Bilbo did. I conserve resources whenever I can. A walk down
                        a
                        > > country road in the fall is worth a million dollars to me. For
                        > many
                        > > people, these things mean nothing, for me they mean EVERYTHING.
                        > And
                        > > I owe much of these values that I hold dear to Tolkien himself.
                        I
                        > > wonder if he realizes the impact he has had.
                        > >
                        > > I really think Tolkien's works are bound to increase in relevance
                        > for
                        > > this world.
                        > >
                        > > To quote Tolkien's "The Hobbit", "When there was less noise and
                        > more
                        > > green" in the world, I think sums it up for me.
                        > >
                        > > To me popular culture represents the "noise" of the world.
                        People
                        > > seem to not know how to just be quiet or patient. A drive on any
                        > of
                        > > our highways will quickly clue you in as to how much patience our
                        > > culture has for taking time doing anything. Practically none.
                        > > People have diffrent tastes in things, of course, but this goes
                        far
                        > > beyond that. Have you noticed that popular culture never seems to
                        > be
                        > > patient or quiet? It's always about the next quick fix, the next
                        > > half-hour, the next instant thrill!! You're told you MUST have
                        > this
                        > > candy bar! Move! Move! Move! Entertain me, and then get the
                        > hell
                        > > out of my way..... Hip hop music for me is simply "noise".
                        Sorry
                        > if
                        > > this is offensive to anyone, but I don't say it from a racist
                        > > standpoint. I say it as a person with a love of the quiet and
                        > things
                        > > taken in measure. To me hip-hop, is ignorant noise, like orc
                        drums
                        > > beating in the middle of the night when people just want some
                        > peace.
                        > > There, I said it. And the reason I classify it as such, is
                        because
                        > > 99.99999% of those people who listen to it, BLACK AND WHITE, play
                        > it
                        > > without regard for those around them, and at a volume that sucks
                        > all
                        > > the peace and tranquility out of the atmosphere. You call it
                        > music?
                        > > I call it orc noise. Pure and simple. It's garbage. And the
                        > people
                        > > whoe play it are orcs. Those who produce the music and perform
                        the
                        > > music and lyrics are the ringwraiths.
                        > >
                        > > People jump out of their seats the instant a movie is over.
                        Listen
                        > > to the music and watch the credits after the movie is over? No
                        > time
                        > > for that! Read a book? No time for that either! They even have
                        > to
                        > > bring cell phones into the theatre with them now. They can't
                        even
                        > > break away from the "noise" for a couple hours in a movie
                        theatre.
                        > > People seem to care not for your safety on the road, get out of
                        > their
                        > > way, because they have some place to be!! And they have to be on
                        a
                        > > cell phone talking to the person they are hurtling towards at
                        > deadly
                        > > speed. People seem to be losing touch with their souls, I swear
                        to
                        > > God they are. They can't seem to slow down for an instant, and
                        > hurry
                        > > here and there, and waste and destroy and damage and insult all
                        > that
                        > > comes across their path. It's simple: the person who tailgates
                        on
                        > > the highway is an orc. The person who litters is an orc. The
                        > person
                        > > who bumps into you and then blames you for it for being there is
                        an
                        > > orc.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > For me, Tolkien's world holds some very clear equivalents. The
                        > Ring,
                        > > and its minions, the Orcs, goblins, all the forces of evil. They
                        > > represent "noise", haste, insults, destruction, rudeness,
                        > > intolerance, impatience. In our world Orcs are everywhere, but
                        in
                        > > human form I'm afraid!! There is a "hidden orc" in all of us,
                        and
                        > > our popular culture I believe feeds that orc, even if it's only
                        on
                        > > the level of gluttony, selfnishness, wastefulness. These things
                        > are
                        > > as evil in my eyes as anything else.
                        > >
                        > > It is strange that while the free countries of this world
                        prosper,
                        > > yet at the same time many of the forces that drive
                        > that "prosperity"
                        > > are so deadly negative. In America this can be seen more and
                        more
                        > > every day. America, while still a great place to live, and still
                        a
                        > > place of freedom thank god, it is becoming a part of the world in
                        > > which people many times seem to act more like orcs and
                        Ringwraiths
                        > > than they do elves and hobbits. And while that may sound comical
                        > to
                        > > some, to me it is deadly serious, and disturbing.
                        > >
                        > > Tolkien is telling us it is our duty as human beings to suppress
                        > the
                        > > orc in us, to do all we can to defy that instinct to waste and
                        > > destroy. He is telling us that we must look to the elves, and
                        > > emulate them, to keep as much "green" in the world as possible,
                        and
                        > > to protect what green we still have. That could be as simple as
                        > not
                        > > trampling on a flower, it could be as simple as not littering.
                        It
                        > > could be as simple as driving sanely, and calmly without putting
                        > > others in danger because of our haste and selfishness.
                        > >
                        > > Today in the world, there are pockets of elves and hobbits. The
                        > > Amish, monasteries, cloysters, small communities and places where
                        > > people try to preseve the quiet and the green. And just as in
                        > > Tolkien's world, the forces that oppose them are powerful and
                        > > massive, like a machine. And there are individuals like us, who
                        > try
                        > > our best to the elf, the hobbit, and not the orc. It is a
                        > difficult
                        > > journey.
                        > >
                        > > Yes, I live in this society, I use many of the same products and
                        > > services, and I drive our roads and interact with people. But I
                        > > always try to be more like a hobbit and an elf when I do any of
                        > these
                        > > things. I think to myself, what would a hobbit think of this?
                        > What
                        > > would an elf do? The answers come pretty quickly.
                        > >
                        > > It's frightening that people can scoff at something like Tolkien,
                        > and
                        > > assume there's nothing to learn from it. My God, it has shaped
                        my
                        > > whole life, down to the core of my soul.
                        > >
                        > > Tolkien's books have changed me forever. I'm not perfect, not
                        even
                        > > close. But I like to think that there is hope still in the
                        world,
                        > > and that in some small way I am contributing to that hope, not
                        > taking
                        > > away from it. I like to think that the spirit of Tolkien is
                        alive,
                        > > and moving through us all, and speaking to us, if we would only
                        > stop
                        > > and listen.
                        > >
                        > > MH
                        > >
                        > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Terry"
                        > <tfar192000@y...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > I realized something today while reading 'Lost Tales' for the
                        > first
                        > > > time. I was at the laundry mat washing clothes reading the
                        > > > chapter 'The coming of the Elves', the beauty and majesty of
                        the
                        > > > story was awe inspiring! BUT at the same time there was a
                        > > television
                        > > > in the laundry mat blairing out a popular 'sit com' in which
                        the
                        > > > characters traded mean insults and put downs to a laugh track.
                        As
                        > I
                        > > > read the wonderfull tale I could not help but feel deepest
                        > contempt
                        > > > for the low brow garbage that passes for tv. I am not a snob or
                        a
                        > > > privilidged type, I am a lower class working white man living
                        in
                        > a
                        > > > neighborhood fast becoming a mexican ghetto. I came to realize
                        > that
                        > > > Tolkiens books are some of the most beautifull and pleasant
                        > things
                        > > I
                        > > > have ever been exposed to, some of the best things in my life.
                        > > After
                        > > > reading Tolkien I have been changed, I can never again tolerate
                        > the
                        > > > mindless drivel that spews from tv or the empty chatter that
                        most
                        > > of
                        > > > radio is. The hostile aggressive filth known as rap music{?}is
                        > the
                        > > > most lothsome and degenrate thing I know, after being exposed
                        to
                        > > the
                        > > > beauty of Tolkiens world how can one feel anything but contempt
                        > > > towards 'hip-hop'? Has Tolkien raised be up or improved me in
                        > some
                        > > > way with his stories even though they are just make belive?
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