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Re: the Mothers and Arwen

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  • Jon <Johnjabberoo@aol.com>
    I just finished watching one of the disc of the extended FOTR s about J.R.R. Tolkien. It said that he lost his father rather unexpectedly when he was only
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 31, 2003
      I just finished watching one of the disc of the extended FOTR's about
      J.R.R. Tolkien. It said that he lost his father rather unexpectedly
      when he was only four and his mother not much later. But the time he
      was in upper school she was gone, if not before. The narrator says
      this was the beginning of his feelings about being all alone. And
      then it goes on to say how he had close friends in college and then
      came the war and they all went to fight and almost all his friends
      were killed. He was all alone again. It was very sad to listen to
      and watch this, but I thought that maybe it might have some bearing
      on this point you have raised here.

      --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, ethiercn@a... wrote:
      > Okay, I have question but its going to take awhile to get there, so
      just bear
      > with me.
      >
      > It occured to me the other day, that the main characters in the
      LOTR and the
      > Hobbit seemed to lack mothers. Now, just about everyone in the
      Hobbit lacks
      > a living parent, or a parent who the reader knows for sure is
      alive. In the
      > LOTR the fathers are more evident the mothers. Whether or not this
      due to
      > Tolkien's personal life or more of a copy of the medevial sources,
      I don't
      > know (perhaps both). Aragorn's parents are dead (though his mother
      outlived
      > his father, there does seem to be a hint of death caused by grief.
      She just
      > waits until her son is "old enough"), so are Frodo's. Boromir's
      mom is dead,
      > and Sam's seems to be. Pippin and Merry, can't be sure about. But
      neither
      > of them mentions any mother (possibly any parent?). Legolas and
      Gimli's
      > mothers are non-existence in terms of the text. The reader is not
      even told
      > the names of these females. Can't see Gandalf with a mother.
      Gandalf just
      > is. Eowyn and Eomer's mother died because of the grief she felt
      for her
      > husband's death (remember this). Theoden's wife is dead. Arwen
      and her
      > brothers lack a mother because she went into the West to be cured
      of an orc
      > arrow. While it is true that they (Arwen etc) have a grandmother
      in
      > Galadriel, Galadriel's only motherly act seems to be the fostering
      of Arwen
      > (but fostering, not mothering), and this isn't in the main text of
      the book.
      > So we in the main text of LOTR, Galadriel does not really act like
      ARwen's
      > mom. Arwen has a sad parting only with her father; not her
      grandmother. By
      > and large, mothers are lacking from LOTR. And alot of fantasy
      writers who
      > copy the LOTR tend to do this (Brooks in the first Shannara novel
      for
      > instance. McKiernan is unusual because his characters have
      mothers, and
      > reader mets them).
      > Is this lack of mothers the reason why Arwen goes into
      Lorien to
      > wander after Aragorn's death? That always bugged me. If elves can
      die of
      > grief, and if men can die of grief (Eowyn's mom); then why doesn't
      Arwen?
      > She leaves behind her kids and possible grandchildren to go wander
      alone.
      > Doesn't that abandonment seem to suggest that Aragorn was her only
      love? Her
      > really true passion; and her love for her children was secondary.
      And if
      > that is the case, then why doesn't she die from grief? She gave up
      her
      > immortality, but even if that means giving up all of her elfness,
      men can
      > still die from grief, or at least women can, as seen by Eowyn's
      mother. And
      > if she can't die from grief, then why so quickly abandon her
      family. She's
      > only alone because she chooses to be.
      > Or is it because that's her pentaly for falling to
      temptation. While
      > her love is grand and true, it is also a form of temptation. And
      its worth
      > noting that only men, as in male, seem vunerable to the Ring. The
      only
      > female tempted by it is Galadriel and she does not fall. When
      female elves
      > fall in LOTR (with the exception of Shelob) it is due to giving in
      to love.
      > And it is clear it is love, not lust. So the price for Arwen's
      love is
      > death but also to wander alone even though she has family. But in
      the book,
      > the only real price that is mentioned, at least before the
      appendices, is the
      > fact that she will die a mortal death. Which brings back to -why
      does Arwen
      > wander alone - is it to fulfill the absent mother pattern?
      >
      > Chris
    • odalisque01 <odalisque01@yahoo.com>
      Hey Chris, Wow, that s a really interesting observation. I think that theme crops up quite a bit in great literature. Shakespeare is full of motherless
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
        Hey Chris,

        Wow, that's a really interesting observation. I think that theme
        crops up quite a bit in great literature. Shakespeare is full of
        motherless children, especially daughters... e.g., Desdemona in
        Othello, Cordelia and her sisters in King Lear, Miranda in the
        Tempest, Ophelia and Laertes in Hamlet (and Hamlet himself, who had a
        mother but a problematic one), and Prince Hal in Henry IV, whom I
        think Aragorn resembles in some ways. Fairy tales, too, are full of
        motherless daughters: Cinderella, Snow White etc. Maybe it has
        something to do with the idea that a child missing a mother is in some
        sense a child missing a piece of himself--an internalized model of
        adulthood, maybe--and must go out into the world to recreate this on
        his own when the generational chain is broken. Maybe it's the
        motherless children who are driven to go out on heroic quests, like
        Frodo and in a different way Arwen... because their family lives
        didn't provide the usual rites of passage, their initiation into
        adulthood requires this sort of epic journey full of trials and hardship.

        As to Arwen's lonely wanderings: I think you're right, that's really
        the crux of the sacrifice she makes. It's not so much her own
        mortality that's bitter as having to experience Aragorn's. I actually
        think she does die of grief, but she has to leave her family and
        wander to a silent, deserted Lorien in order to meet it.

        Sorry about the incoherent late-night ramblings, LOL.

        Christine



        --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, ethiercn@a... wrote:
        > Okay, I have question but its going to take awhile to get there, so
        just bear
        > with me.
        >
        > It occured to me the other day, that the main characters in the LOTR
        and the
        > Hobbit seemed to lack mothers. Now, just about everyone in the
        Hobbit lacks
        > a living parent, or a parent who the reader knows for sure is alive.
        In the
        > LOTR the fathers are more evident the mothers. Whether or not this
        due to
        > Tolkien's personal life or more of a copy of the medevial sources, I
        don't
        > know (perhaps both). Aragorn's parents are dead (though his mother
        outlived
        > his father, there does seem to be a hint of death caused by grief.
        She just
        > waits until her son is "old enough"), so are Frodo's. Boromir's mom
        is dead,
        > and Sam's seems to be. Pippin and Merry, can't be sure about. But
        neither
        > of them mentions any mother (possibly any parent?). Legolas and
        Gimli's
        > mothers are non-existence in terms of the text. The reader is not
        even told
        > the names of these females. Can't see Gandalf with a mother.
        Gandalf just
        > is. Eowyn and Eomer's mother died because of the grief she felt for
        her
        > husband's death (remember this). Theoden's wife is dead. Arwen and
        her
        > brothers lack a mother because she went into the West to be cured of
        an orc
        > arrow. While it is true that they (Arwen etc) have a grandmother in
        > Galadriel, Galadriel's only motherly act seems to be the fostering
        of Arwen
        > (but fostering, not mothering), and this isn't in the main text of
        the book.
        > So we in the main text of LOTR, Galadriel does not really act like
        ARwen's
        > mom. Arwen has a sad parting only with her father; not her
        grandmother. By
        > and large, mothers are lacking from LOTR. And alot of fantasy
        writers who
        > copy the LOTR tend to do this (Brooks in the first Shannara novel for
        > instance. McKiernan is unusual because his characters have mothers,
        and
        > reader mets them).
        > Is this lack of mothers the reason why Arwen goes into Lorien to
        > wander after Aragorn's death? That always bugged me. If elves can
        die of
        > grief, and if men can die of grief (Eowyn's mom); then why doesn't
        Arwen?
        > She leaves behind her kids and possible grandchildren to go wander
        alone.
        > Doesn't that abandonment seem to suggest that Aragorn was her only
        love? Her
        > really true passion; and her love for her children was secondary.
        And if
        > that is the case, then why doesn't she die from grief? She gave up her
        > immortality, but even if that means giving up all of her elfness,
        men can
        > still die from grief, or at least women can, as seen by Eowyn's
        mother. And
        > if she can't die from grief, then why so quickly abandon her family.
        She's
        > only alone because she chooses to be.
        > Or is it because that's her pentaly for falling to
        temptation. While
        > her love is grand and true, it is also a form of temptation. And
        its worth
        > noting that only men, as in male, seem vunerable to the Ring. The only
        > female tempted by it is Galadriel and she does not fall. When
        female elves
        > fall in LOTR (with the exception of Shelob) it is due to giving in
        to love.
        > And it is clear it is love, not lust. So the price for Arwen's
        love is
        > death but also to wander alone even though she has family. But in
        the book,
        > the only real price that is mentioned, at least before the
        appendices, is the
        > fact that she will die a mortal death. Which brings back to -why
        does Arwen
        > wander alone - is it to fulfill the absent mother pattern?
        >
        > Chris
      • anna_l_milton <bastetsdog@yahoo.co.uk>
        ... really ... actually ... It is stated that Arwen s choice entails losing everything she made her choice for (I don t have the exact referrence with me, as I
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
          --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "odalisque01
          <odalisque01@y...>" <odalisque01@y...> wrote:
          > [snip!]
          > As to Arwen's lonely wanderings: I think you're right, that's
          really
          > the crux of the sacrifice she makes. It's not so much her own
          > mortality that's bitter as having to experience Aragorn's. I
          actually
          > think she does die of grief, but she has to leave her family and
          > wander to a silent, deserted Lorien in order to meet it.

          It is stated that Arwen's choice entails losing everything she made
          her choice for (I don't have the exact referrence with me, as I am in
          the public library). There's an excellent essay on this and other
          matters by Tyellas here: http://www.ansereg.com/WarmBedsareGood.pdf
          (Note that it's in .pdf format) Highly recommended!

          Schnoogles,

          Anna
        • ethiercn@aol.com
          In a message dated 2/1/2003 1:56:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Which is why in the appendices his grandmother (Gilrean s {sp} mother) voices support for the
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
            In a message dated 2/1/2003 1:56:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, kim_loves_coffee@... writes:


            Aragorn's birthright is critical to
            the story.


            Which is why in the appendices his grandmother (Gilrean's {sp} mother) voices support for the marriage.


            Chris
          • ethiercn@aol.com
            In a message dated 2/1/2003 4:53:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... I understand the motherless kids in Shakespeare. One, you have the fact of who would play
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
              In a message dated 2/1/2003 4:53:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, odalisque01@... writes:


              Wow, that's a really interesting observation.  I think that theme
              crops up quite a bit in great literature.  Shakespeare is full of
              motherless children, especially daughters... e.g., Desdemona in
              Othello, Cordelia and her sisters in King Lear, Miranda in the
              Tempest, Ophelia and Laertes in Hamlet (and Hamlet himself, who had a
              mother but a problematic one), and Prince Hal in Henry IV, whom I
              think Aragorn resembles in some ways.  Fairy tales, too, are full of
              motherless daughters: Cinderella, Snow White etc.


              I understand the motherless kids in Shakespeare.  One, you have the fact of who would play them.  And two, a mother would change the outcome of the story to a degree.  As for Cinderella and Snow White, in many of the original fairy tales, the Grimms changed the mother into a step mother.

              But even Arwen's mother figure, Galadreil (sp) doesn't act like a mother.  I would have thought she would have something to say on the matter, at least in the appendices.  I, therefore, liked that scene between her and ARagorn  in the movie.


              Chris
            • Anna <IdrilCelebrindal@aol.com>
              Chris wrote: [[ Or is it because that s her pentaly for falling to temptation. While her love is grand and true, it is also a form of temptation. ]] From the
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
                Chris wrote:
                [[ Or is it because that's her pentaly for falling to temptation.
                While her love is grand and true, it is also a form of temptation. ]]

                From the Appendix A, Elrond says "Maybe it has been appointed so,
                that by my loss the kingship of men may be restored."

                Arwen didn't fall to the temptation of love, but listened with her
                heart and followed Eru's will. But she gave up her father for
                that.... which I doubt she would have done for an ordinary romance.

                Interesting thoughts on the missing Mother thing... I'm not sure if I
                can add to that! :)

                Idril/Anna
              • Lisa B.
                I noticed a lack of mothers too. I started like freaking out one day and was like why?! where are their mothers? If they even manage to have parents they
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
                  I noticed a lack of mothers too. I started like
                  freaking out one day and was like "why?! where are
                  their mothers? If they even manage to have parents
                  they dont have a mother. and frodo is raised by a
                  father figure. whyyyyy?!" and i proceded to list
                  everyone's parents or parent figure. i beleive my
                  friend thought i was insane. but it happens. i start
                  thinking about something like this and just start
                  freaking out in my need for knowledge. of course the
                  only person i know outside the club who knows more
                  about it that me i dont get to talk to hardly ever. so
                  i just sit and wonder. partly why i joined this club.
                  so id have someone else to ask.


                  --- ethiercn@... wrote:
                  > Okay, I have question but its going to take awhile
                  > to get there, so just bear
                  > with me.
                  >
                  > It occured to me the other day, that the main
                  > characters in the LOTR and the
                  > Hobbit seemed to lack mothers. Now, just about
                  > everyone in the Hobbit lacks
                  > a living parent, or a parent who the reader knows
                  > for sure is alive. In the
                  > LOTR the fathers are more evident the mothers.
                  > Whether or not this due to
                  > Tolkien's personal life or more of a copy of the
                  > medevial sources, I don't
                  > know (perhaps both). Aragorn's parents are dead
                  > (though his mother outlived
                  > his father, there does seem to be a hint of death
                  > caused by grief. She just
                  > waits until her son is "old enough"), so are
                  > Frodo's. Boromir's mom is dead,
                  > and Sam's seems to be. Pippin and Merry, can't be
                  > sure about. But neither
                  > of them mentions any mother (possibly any parent?).
                  > Legolas and Gimli's
                  > mothers are non-existence in terms of the text. The
                  > reader is not even told
                  > the names of these females. Can't see Gandalf with
                  > a mother. Gandalf just
                  > is. Eowyn and Eomer's mother died because of the
                  > grief she felt for her
                  > husband's death (remember this). Theoden's wife is
                  > dead. Arwen and her
                  > brothers lack a mother because she went into the
                  > West to be cured of an orc
                  > arrow. While it is true that they (Arwen etc) have
                  > a grandmother in
                  > Galadriel, Galadriel's only motherly act seems to be
                  > the fostering of Arwen
                  > (but fostering, not mothering), and this isn't in
                  > the main text of the book.
                  > So we in the main text of LOTR, Galadriel does not
                  > really act like ARwen's
                  > mom. Arwen has a sad parting only with her father;
                  > not her grandmother. By
                  > and large, mothers are lacking from LOTR. And alot
                  > of fantasy writers who
                  > copy the LOTR tend to do this (Brooks in the first
                  > Shannara novel for
                  > instance. McKiernan is unusual because his
                  > characters have mothers, and
                  > reader mets them).
                  > Is this lack of mothers the reason why Arwen
                  > goes into Lorien to
                  > wander after Aragorn's death? That always bugged
                  > me. If elves can die of
                  > grief, and if men can die of grief (Eowyn's mom);
                  > then why doesn't Arwen?
                  > She leaves behind her kids and possible
                  > grandchildren to go wander alone.
                  > Doesn't that abandonment seem to suggest that
                  > Aragorn was her only love? Her
                  > really true passion; and her love for her children
                  > was secondary. And if
                  > that is the case, then why doesn't she die from
                  > grief? She gave up her
                  > immortality, but even if that means giving up all of
                  > her elfness, men can
                  > still die from grief, or at least women can, as seen
                  > by Eowyn's mother. And
                  > if she can't die from grief, then why so quickly
                  > abandon her family. She's
                  > only alone because she chooses to be.
                  > Or is it because that's her pentaly for
                  > falling to temptation. While
                  > her love is grand and true, it is also a form of
                  > temptation. And its worth
                  > noting that only men, as in male, seem vunerable to
                  > the Ring. The only
                  > female tempted by it is Galadriel and she does not
                  > fall. When female elves
                  > fall in LOTR (with the exception of Shelob) it is
                  > due to giving in to love.
                  > And it is clear it is love, not lust. So the
                  > price for Arwen's love is
                  > death but also to wander alone even though she has
                  > family. But in the book,
                  > the only real price that is mentioned, at least
                  > before the appendices, is the
                  > fact that she will die a mortal death. Which brings
                  > back to -why does Arwen
                  > wander alone - is it to fulfill the absent mother
                  > pattern?
                  >
                  > Chris
                  >


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                • ethiercn@aol.com
                  In a message dated 2/2/2003 1:51:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Actually, there are two main mother figures in LOTR who function as mothers. THe first is
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
                    In a message dated 2/2/2003 1:51:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, spanky8289@... writes:


                    I noticed a lack of mothers too.  I started like
                    freaking out one day and was like "why?! where are
                    their mothers?



                    Actually, there are two main mother figures in LOTR who function as mothers.  THe first is Rosie (whose mother is also alive) and the second is Lobelia Sackville-Baggins.  She however, outlives her son (which is a good thing) and she is somewhat redeemed at the end of the novel, leaving her money to charity, being a hero, returning Bag End.

                    Chris
                  • Lisa B.
                    Are those both in the last book? I m only basing my mother thing on the movies and i havent seen any real mothers in the movies so far. I havnt had time to
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
                      Are those both in the last book? I'm only basing my
                      mother thing on the movies and i havent seen any real
                      mothers in the movies so far. I havnt had time to
                      read the books yet. School thinks i need to read the
                      ever boring Death of Ivan Ilych and write a paper
                      about it.


                      --- ethiercn@... wrote:
                      > In a message dated 2/2/2003 1:51:35 AM Eastern
                      > Standard Time,
                      > spanky8289@... writes:
                      >
                      >
                      > > I noticed a lack of mothers too. I started like
                      > > freaking out one day and was like "why?! where are
                      > > their mothers?
                      >
                      >
                      > Actually, there are two main mother figures in LOTR
                      > who function as mothers.
                      > THe first is Rosie (whose mother is also alive) and
                      > the second is Lobelia
                      > Sackville-Baggins. She however, outlives her son
                      > (which is a good thing) and
                      > she is somewhat redeemed at the end of the novel,
                      > leaving her money to
                      > charity, being a hero, returning Bag End.
                      >
                      > Chris
                      >


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                      Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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                    • Bruce Alan Wilson
                      ... From: ethiercn@aol.com To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] the Mothers and
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 3, 2003
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 9:32 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] the Mothers and Arwen

                        Okay, I have question but its going to take awhile to get there, so just bear with me.

                        It occured to me the other day, that the main characters in the LOTR and the Hobbit seemed to lack mothers.  Now, just about everyone in the Hobbit lacks a living parent, or a parent who the reader knows for sure is alive.  In the LOTR the fathers are more evident the mothers.  Whether or not this due to Tolkien's personal life or more of a copy of the medevial sources, I don't know (perhaps both). 
                         
                        JRRT's father died when he was a baby, and his mother died when he was quite young. 
                         
                         
                         Aragorn's parents are dead (though his mother outlived his father, there does seem to be a hint of death caused by grief. She just waits until her son is "old enough"), so are Frodo's.  Boromir's mom is dead, and Sam's seems to be.  Pippin and Merry, can't be sure about.  But neither of them mentions any mother (possibly any parent?).
                         
                        Pippin mentions his father once, and in 'The Scouring of the Shire' he is referred to as being alive and leading the Tookish resistance to Lotho and Sharky.  (This is from memory, but one of the Hobbiton people tells Pippin that when Lotho set up as 'Chief', Pip's father said that if anyone had the right to set himself up as 'Chief', it would be the right Thane of the Shire, and no upstart, and that he drove the Lothoites out of Tookland.)
                         
                          Legolas and Gimli's mothers are non-existence in terms of the text.  The reader is not even told the names of these females.  Can't see Gandalf with a mother.  Gandalf just is.  Eowyn and Eomer's mother died because of the grief she felt for her husband's death (remember this).  Theoden's wife is dead.  Arwen and her brothers lack a mother because she went into the West to be cured of an orc arrow.  While it is true that they (Arwen etc) have a grandmother in Galadriel, Galadriel's only motherly act seems to be the fostering of Arwen (but fostering, not mothering), and this isn't in the main text of the book.  So we in the main text of LOTR, Galadriel does not really act like ARwen's mom.  Arwen has a sad parting only with her father; not her grandmother.  By and large, mothers are lacking from LOTR.  And alot of fantasy writers who copy the LOTR tend to do this (Brooks in the first Shannara novel for instance.  McKiernan is unusual because his characters have mothers, and reader mets them).
                         
                         

                               Is this lack of mothers the reason why Arwen goes into Lorien to wander after Aragorn's death?  That always bugged me.  If elves can die of grief, and if men can die of grief (Eowyn's mom); then why doesn't Arwen? 
                         
                        But she did--not right away, in a year or so.
                         
                         
                         
                      • Bruce Alan Wilson
                        ... From: Kimberly To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 1:56 AM Subject: [TolkienDiscussions]
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 3, 2003
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 1:56 AM
                          Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: the Mothers and Arwen

                          Good message, Chris!

                           As well, these characters (in the
                          books, at least) are not young. With Bilbo being 111 at the start of
                          the story, it is not terribly surprising that his brother and sister-
                          in-law, Frodo's parents, would be deceased. 
                           
                          Everyone talks about Frodo as Bilbo's 'nephew', but that's not right.  In 'The Hobbit', JRRT says that Bilbo is the only child of Bungo and Belladona (Took) Baggins.  Frodo is (on the one side)[IIRC] the grandson of Bilbo's paternal uncle, and (on the other) [again IIRC], great-grandson of a maternal uncle. 
                           
                          (Apparently the families of the Hobbit gentry intermarried a lot, and it is not uncommon for people to be related to one another in more than one way, depending on how one traces the line.  That's true in my own family; it has been said more than once that the most sensible thing my dad ever did was not to marry a local girl.
                           
                           
                          It isn't very surprising that mothers (and women in general, with a
                          few exceptions) have a small role in the story. For a guy writing in
                          the first half of the 20th century, creating even a few strong,
                          heroic female characters (Luthien, Eowyn, Galadriel, Haleth) is
                          actually pretty impressive.

                          I think also a lot of Tolkien's female characters have no real
                          purpose *except* motherhood. In the Silmarillion there are several
                          female characters who have no role at all except as a mate for an
                          important male character. You can be pretty sure that any time a
                          character is mentioned fathering a daughter, she's only there because
                          later in the story a male hero is going to need a uterus (with the
                          right blood-lines) to bear the next generation of heroes.

                          -kimmy



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                        • Kimberly <kim_loves_coffee@yahoo.com>
                          ... Oops! Yes, I definitely had the movie in mind when I wrote that. My mistake. After looking at the family tree, it does appear that Bilbo was of the same
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 3, 2003
                            --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson"
                            <brucewilson@c...> wrote:
                            > Everyone talks about Frodo as Bilbo's 'nephew', but that's not
                            > right. In 'The Hobbit', JRRT says that Bilbo is the only child of
                            > Bungo and Belladona (Took) Baggins. Frodo is (on the one side)
                            > [IIRC] the grandson of Bilbo's paternal uncle, and (on the other)
                            > [again IIRC], great-grandson of a maternal uncle.


                            Oops! Yes, I definitely had the movie in mind when I wrote that. My
                            mistake. After looking at the family tree, it does appear that Bilbo
                            was of the same generation as Frodo's parents, though. I've always
                            thought of cousins as being of the same generation.

                            -kimmy
                          • Bruce Alan Wilson
                            Not necessarily. The children of your parents siblings are your first cousins; their children are your first cousins (once removed)--and would be of the same
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 3, 2003
                              Not necessarily.  The children of your parents' siblings are your first cousins; their children are your first cousins (once removed)--and would be of the same generation as your own children.  Similarly, your grandparent's sibling's children are your second cousins--and would be of the same generation as your parents; their children would be of your generation, and would be your second cousins (once removed).
                               
                              Of course, the families constituting the Shire's gentry--they really didn't have any nobility (the Tooks and Brandybucks came the closest)--like the Bagginses, the Boffins, the Bolgers, the Sackvilles, the Bracegirdles, the Goodbodies, the Chubbs, the Grubbs, the Proudfoots (Proudfeet?), etc. intermarried so much that they were all cousins somehow.
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 12:43 PM
                              Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Bilbo and Frodo

                              I've always
                              thought of cousins as being of the same generation.

                              -kimmy



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                            • ethiercn@aol.com
                              In a message dated 2/2/2003 10:47:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yes, both are in the last book. But both women are minor characters. And Rosie is a good
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 3, 2003
                                In a message dated 2/2/2003 10:47:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, spanky8289@... writes:


                                Are those both in the last book?  I'm only basing my
                                mother thing on the movies and i havent seen any  real
                                mothers in the movies so far.  I havnt had time to
                                read the books yet.  School thinks i need to read the
                                ever boring Death of Ivan Ilych and write a paper
                                about it.



                                Yes, both are in the last book.  But both women are minor characters.  And Rosie is a good wife who dies before Sam, thereby freeing him to go to the West after Frodo.

                                Chris
                              • ethiercn@aol.com
                                In a message dated 2/3/2003 9:09:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... But did she really die? And when did she die? She is not list in the Appendices timeline.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 3, 2003
                                  In a message dated 2/3/2003 9:09:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, brucewilson@... writes:



                                  But she did--not right away, in a year or so.


                                  But did she really die?  And when did she die?  She is not list in the Appendices timeline.  So it are goes to how the leaves fall in Lorien, how long those seasons run.  With Theodwyn (eomer's mom) she dies not long after her husband.  Why the time difference with Arwen?

                                  Chris
                                • Lisa B.
                                  yay......finally someone who can tell me what is ment by the whole once removed stuff. You are the first person I ve found that knows. Everyone I know just
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 3, 2003
                                    yay......finally someone who can tell me what is ment
                                    by the whole once removed stuff. You are the first
                                    person I've found that knows. Everyone I know just
                                    goes by numbers.
                                    1st coz= parents' siblbings' kids
                                    2nd coz= parents cousins and 1st cousins' children
                                    3rd coz= children of any form of 2nd coz
                                    4th coz= children of any form of 3rd coz
                                    wow.....my family has actually reached the 4th cousin
                                    region. but yeah.......when talking they are all
                                    usually just my cousins. Like I go to the same
                                    college as my 3rd cousin. I dont go "hey look there's
                                    my 3rd cousin." i just say cousin. i'm so glad i
                                    joined this group. i learn so much. i should have
                                    joined years ago.



                                    --- Bruce Alan Wilson <brucewilson@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Not necessarily. The children of your parents'
                                    > siblings are your first cousins; their children are
                                    > your first cousins (once removed)--and would be of
                                    > the same generation as your own children.
                                    > Similarly, your grandparent's sibling's children are
                                    > your second cousins--and would be of the same
                                    > generation as your parents; their children would be
                                    > of your generation, and would be your second cousins
                                    > (once removed).
                                    >
                                    > Of course, the families constituting the Shire's
                                    > gentry--they really didn't have any nobility (the
                                    > Tooks and Brandybucks came the closest)--like the
                                    > Bagginses, the Boffins, the Bolgers, the Sackvilles,
                                    > the Bracegirdles, the Goodbodies, the Chubbs, the
                                    > Grubbs, the Proudfoots (Proudfeet?), etc.
                                    > intermarried so much that they were all cousins
                                    > somehow.
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Kimberly <kim_loves_coffee@...>
                                    > To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 12:43 PM
                                    > Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Bilbo and Frodo
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I've always
                                    > thought of cousins as being of the same
                                    > generation.
                                    >
                                    > -kimmy
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • Jack
                                    We are talking about Arwen, aren t we? The King Elessar dies on March 1st, 1541SR Arwen went forth.. and said farewell ...to all whom she had loved... and
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 4, 2003
                                      We are talking about Arwen, aren't we? 
                                       
                                      The King Elessar dies on March 1st, 1541SR
                                      "Arwen went forth.. and said farewell ...to all whom she had loved... and passed away to the land of Lorien and dwelt there alone...until winter came.  There at last when the Mallorn leaves were falling but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed."
                                       
                                      So we are talking about early 1542 SR - February or March approximately
                                       
                                      (In autumn the leaves fall not, but turn to gold.  Not till the spring comes and the new green opens do they fall)
                                       
                                      hth
                                      Jack
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: ethiercn@... [mailto:ethiercn@...]

                                      But did she really die?  And when did she die?  She is not list in the Appendices timeline.  So it are goes to how the leaves fall in Lorien, how long those seasons run.  With Theodwyn (eomer's mom) she dies not long after her husband.  Why the time difference with Arwen?

                                      Chris


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                                    • ethiercn@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 2/4/2003 4:00:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... That green grave? And why is changed. Not changed. Chris
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 4, 2003
                                        In a message dated 2/4/2003 4:00:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jack@... writes:


                                        and there is her green grave, until the world is changed."


                                        That green grave?  And why is changed.  Not changed.


                                        Chris
                                      • Jack
                                        Sorry Chris, I m not sure what you are asking me.. Regards Jack ... From: ethiercn@aol.com [mailto:ethiercn@aol.com] Sent: 04 February 2003 21:18 To:
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 4, 2003
                                          Sorry Chris, I'm not sure what you are asking me..
                                          Regards
                                          Jack
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: ethiercn@... [mailto:ethiercn@...]
                                          Sent: 04 February 2003 21:18
                                          To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] the Mothers and Arwen

                                          In a message dated 2/4/2003 4:00:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jack@... writes:


                                          and there is her green grave, until the world is changed."


                                          That green grave?  And why is changed.  Not changed.


                                          Chris


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                                        • ethiercn@aol.com
                                          ... Don t really know if I was asking. There is just something strange about the description of Arwen s death. Its like, when the Council of Erlond is being
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 5, 2003
                                            In a message dated 2/5/2003 2:06:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, jack@... writes:

                                            > Sorry Chris, I'm not sure what you are asking me..
                                            > Regards
                                            > Jack

                                            Don't really know if I was asking. There is just something strange about the description of Arwen's death. Its like, when the Council of Erlond is being described. Why is Legolas is described as "strange"? Is it because Frodo doesn't know him? And if that's the case, then why aren't other strangers treated the same why? I just think the description of Arwen's death is strange.

                                            Chris
                                          • Sharon <itzsharon@yahoo.com>
                                            Could you possibly post the exact text you re having trouble with? I don t have access to any of the books at the moment, and even if I did, I m not exactly
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 5, 2003
                                              Could you possibly post the exact text you're having trouble with? I
                                              don't have access to any of the books at the moment, and even if I
                                              did, I'm not exactly sure which passage you're referring to. If you
                                              could quote the passage, perhaps some of us could help sort this
                                              out. :)

                                              Fimbrethil

                                              --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, ethiercn@a... wrote:
                                              > In a message dated 2/5/2003 2:06:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                              jack@t... writes:
                                              >
                                              > > Sorry Chris, I'm not sure what you are asking me..
                                              > > Regards
                                              > > Jack
                                              >
                                              > Don't really know if I was asking. There is just something strange
                                              about the description of Arwen's death. Its like, when the Council
                                              of Erlond is being described. Why is Legolas is described
                                              as "strange"? Is it because Frodo doesn't know him? And if that's
                                              the case, then why aren't other strangers treated the same why? I
                                              just think the description of Arwen's death is strange.
                                              >
                                              > Chris
                                            • ethiercn@aol.com
                                              In a message dated 2/5/2003 1:11:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... From the appendices: There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 5, 2003
                                                In a message dated 2/5/2003 1:11:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, itzsharon@... writes:


                                                If you
                                                could quote the passage, perhaps some of us could help sort this


                                                From the appendices:
                                                       There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself done to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the sea."
                                                      
                                              • Jack
                                                We could help more easily if you hadn t snipped off the original question! But I think you were worried about the phrase until the world is changed - is that
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 5, 2003
                                                  We could help more easily if you hadn't snipped off the original question!
                                                   
                                                  But I think you were worried about the phrase "until the world is changed" - is that right?
                                                   
                                                  If so, I think it is a reference to the way the world was changed at the end of the Silmarillion, when Beleriand was drowned and Valinor removed.  It is used here to signify "for ever and ever", or perhaps "inshallah".
                                                   
                                                  hth
                                                  Jack
                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: ethiercn@... [mailto:ethiercn@...]
                                                  If you
                                                  could quote the passage, perhaps some of us could help sort this


                                                  From the appendices:
                                                         There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself done to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the sea."
                                                        


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                                                • Sharon <itzsharon@yahoo.com>
                                                  That was my impression as well--and I always thought it was just a very poetic and moving way of putting it. I always thought that was a very poetic and moving
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 6, 2003
                                                    That was my impression as well--and I always thought it was just a
                                                    very poetic and moving way of putting it.

                                                    I always thought that was a very poetic and moving passage. *sigh*
                                                    Especially the part about the elanor and the niphredil.

                                                    Fimbrethil

                                                    --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jack@t...> wrote:
                                                    > We could help more easily if you hadn't snipped off the original
                                                    > question!
                                                    >
                                                    > But I think you were worried about the phrase "until the world is
                                                    > changed" - is that right?
                                                    >
                                                    > If so, I think it is a reference to the way the world was changed
                                                    > at the end of the Silmarillion, when Beleriand was drowned and
                                                    > Valinor removed. It is used here to signify "for ever and ever",
                                                    > or perhaps "inshallah".
                                                    >
                                                    > hth
                                                    > Jack
                                                  • kittykatya05 <sds51187@aol.com>
                                                    ... Yeah, our family goes by the numbers too, so I never knew what all the once-removed stuff was. I actually had a 5th cousin come stay with me for a few
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Feb 6, 2003
                                                      --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa B."
                                                      <spanky8289@y...> wrote:
                                                      > yay......finally someone who can tell me what is ment
                                                      > by the whole once removed stuff. You are the first
                                                      > person I've found that knows. Everyone I know just
                                                      > goes by numbers.
                                                      > 1st coz= parents' siblbings' kids
                                                      > 2nd coz= parents cousins and 1st cousins' children
                                                      > 3rd coz= children of any form of 2nd coz
                                                      > 4th coz= children of any form of 3rd coz
                                                      > wow.....my family has actually reached the 4th cousin
                                                      > region. but yeah.......when talking they are all
                                                      > usually just my cousins. Like I go to the same
                                                      > college as my 3rd cousin. I dont go "hey look there's
                                                      > my 3rd cousin." i just say cousin. i'm so glad i
                                                      > joined this group. i learn so much. i should have
                                                      > joined years ago.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- Bruce Alan Wilson <brucewilson@c...>
                                                      > wrote:
                                                      > > Not necessarily. The children of your parents'
                                                      > > siblings are your first cousins; their children are
                                                      > > your first cousins (once removed)--and would be of
                                                      > > the same generation as your own children.
                                                      > > Similarly, your grandparent's sibling's children are
                                                      > > your second cousins--and would be of the same
                                                      > > generation as your parents; their children would be
                                                      > > of your generation, and would be your second cousins
                                                      > > (once removed).
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Of course, the families constituting the Shire's
                                                      > > gentry--they really didn't have any nobility (the
                                                      > > Tooks and Brandybucks came the closest)--like the
                                                      > > Bagginses, the Boffins, the Bolgers, the Sackvilles,
                                                      > > the Bracegirdles, the Goodbodies, the Chubbs, the
                                                      > > Grubbs, the Proudfoots (Proudfeet?), etc.
                                                      > > intermarried so much that they were all cousins
                                                      > > somehow.
                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                      > > From: Kimberly <kim_loves_coffee@y...>
                                                      > > To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 12:43 PM
                                                      > > Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Bilbo and Frodo
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I've always
                                                      > > thought of cousins as being of the same
                                                      > > generation.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > -kimmy


                                                      Yeah, our family goes by the numbers too, so I never knew what all
                                                      the "once-removed" stuff was. I actually had a "5th" cousin come
                                                      stay with me for a few weeks one summer. She she's my grandma's
                                                      brother's great-granddaughter. My mom and her Grandpa are 1rst
                                                      cousins. It gets pretty confusing, so I just call her my cousin.
                                                      ~kittykatya
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