Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Experts - a question here from a 9-year old boy.

Expand Messages
  • Anna
    Sir Q also wrote: [[ Perhaps the Three wouldn t convey invisibility at all since their creator and their wielders had no interest in power. ]] I think you
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Sir Q also wrote: [[ Perhaps the Three wouldn't convey invisibility
      at all since their creator and their wielders had no interest in
      power. ]]

      I think you mean domination? The power of preservation would be a
      power. I'm not sure how the power to dominate would be related to
      invisibility. I always wondered about what would happen if Boromir
      grabbed the Ring.

      ~~~~~~~~ Caution: Silliness follows ~~~~~~~~~~

      Boromir: Alright, listen up! This is what we're going to do. First
      I need you all to go get a thousand men and show back up here at dawn!

      Minions To Be: [grumble mutter] So many? [mutter mutter] What about
      the harvest? [mutter grumble]

      Boromir: Grrr... ::puts on the Ring::

      MsTB: GASP! He disappeared!

      Boromir: You people get moving or I shall be very angry!

      MsTB: Boromir? Where did he go? What's that voice?

      Boromir: I'm right here! I'm wearing the Ring, so you can't see me.
      Now I want you all to bring a thousand men, understand?

      MsTB: [mutter mutter] sounds like a good idea [mutter mutter]

      Boromir: And we'll meet over yonder at dawn! ::points::

      MsTB: Where?

      Boromir: OVER THERE! ::points::

      MsTB: Huh?

      Boromir: Oh, fudge! ::takes off Ring:: OVER THERE at DAWN! ::points::

      MsTB: [grumble grumble] We're not really morning people you know.


      Idril
    • Sharon
      I don t see a connection between the power to dominate and invisibility either. Consider the following: we know that wearing the One Ring confers invisibility
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        I don't see a connection between the power to dominate and
        invisibility either.

        Consider the following: we know that wearing the One Ring confers
        invisibility on both humans (e.g., Isildur) and hobbits (e.g.,
        Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and also Sam, when he put it on briefly after
        thinking that Frodo was dead). Furthermore, we are told that a lust
        for power is something that is a part of human nature, and that this
        is something that makes humans, in particular, especially vulnerable
        to the ring's lure. We are also told that this lust for power is
        something that hobbits don't have in their makeup, are we not? (Sorry
        I don't have references for any of this; no access to the books at
        the moment.)

        Sooo...if a lust for power plays some role in causing the wearer of
        the ring to become invisible, it wouldn't have that effect on
        hobbits, would it?

        Fimbrethil


        --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Anna" <IdrilCelebrindal@a...> wrote:

        > I think you mean domination? The power of preservation would be a
        > power. I'm not sure how the power to dominate would be related to
        > invisibility. I always wondered about what would happen if Boromir
        > grabbed the Ring.
      • Bruce Alan Wilson
        ... From: Anna To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Experts - a question here
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Anna
          Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 12:49 PM
          Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Experts - a question here from a 9-year old boy.


          The first instance is in Bag End, where he talks about how the owner
          of "a great ring" doesn't die, but fades.  This is exactly what
          happened to the Nine, and it's not something that would bother the
          elves... so I believe he's talking about the 20 collectively.  (With
          the possible exception of the dwarf rings, as the dwarves would
          probably be immune to fading.)
          He says that a mortal posessing a Great Ring 'does not die, but he does not grow and obtain more life--he merely continues''.  Elves are not mortal.
          There is no probably about dwarves being immune to fading; JRRT explicitly says that they were made to resist domination by other minds, and that the rings did not make them 'fade', nor did they do anything for their lifespans.  They only increased their desire for precious metals and gemstones.
          It seems that it is the nature of a Ring to work on the weakest part of the bearer's spiritual makeup--it gives what the bearer most desires, but at a high, high price. Mortal men are afraid of old age and death; hence, the Rings allow them to avoid death, but at the price of all the things which makes life living (love, hope, joy--I wonder if male Ringbearers become impotent?)   Elves are afraid of change and decay; hence, they are able to make little pockets where change and decay are arrested--but at the price of gradually withdrawing from the affairs of the larger world.  Hobbits (perhaps?) are afraid of larger, stronger creatures finding and harming them; hence, they become invisible. Dwarves are afraid of poverty; hence, they are spurred to acquisitiveness, and we all know what excessive greed can lead to.

          The second instance is at the CoE, where they talk about the 3, 7 and
          9 all having their proper gems. 
          G. also says that the One was 'round and unadorned, like one of the lesser rings.'  I suspect that is why it took him so long to figure out that Bilbo's ring was the One.  He saw that it had no gem, and that all it seemed to do was make the wearer invisible; he probably put it down, at first, as one of the lesser rings.  (Remember, unlike Saruman, Gandalf wasn't a specialist in ringlore.)

          Galadriel also talks about a commonality between herself and Frodo as
          ringbearers... if that counts for anything.

          Idril



          Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
          of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
          and Calendar sections.
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Jack
          I would like to fly! Please can you fix it for me? When I was a child I had a recurring dream that I was flying, but oddly I never flew very high, I just
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            I would like to fly!  Please can you fix it for me?
             
            When I was a child I had a recurring dream that I was flying, but oddly I never flew very high, I just zoomed about a couple of inches above the surface.  Then when I grew up I tried waterskiing, and wow! I was flying just like in the dreams I had had 20 years earlier.  I never dreamt about the enema effect, though...
             
            :o)
            Jack
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Tripleleo60@... [mailto:Tripleleo60@...]
            There's a public radio show called "This American Life" that a few years ago asked if you had your choice, which super hero power would you chose: the ability to fly or the ability to become invisible. The breakdown of how various sorts of people answered was interesting. I wonder how folks in this group would choose?

            Sir Question of the Mark, K of T.

            Aure entuluva!


            Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
            of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
            and Calendar sections.
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Tripleleo60@cs.com
            In a message dated 12/3/02 12:02:41 PM Mountain Standard Time, ... I think Bruce may be on to something here. My earlier comments about power and shame were
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              In a message dated 12/3/02 12:02:41 PM Mountain Standard Time, brucewilson@... writes:


              It seems that it is the nature of a Ring to work on the weakest part of the bearer's spiritual makeup--it gives what the bearer most desires, but at a high, high price


              I think Bruce may be on to something here. My earlier comments about power and shame were something along the lines of thinking out loud. There may or may not be any merit to them, but BW's analysis of the effects on various races could be heading in the right direction.

              All this from a 9 year old's question, just when things were getting a bit stale. Out of the mouths of babes...
            • Bruce Alan Wilson
              A different cause may have the same effect. In an earlier post I suggested that hobbits are shy of larger, fiercer creatures, which is why they are able to
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                A different cause may have the same effect. In an earlier post I suggested that hobbits are shy of larger, fiercer creatures, which is why they are able to move so quietly, hide so effectively, and are so good with projectiles; hence, invisibility would be a desirable ability for hobbits--but for different reasons than why humans would want it (to be able to 'get away with' inappropriate actions).
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sharon
                Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 1:44 PM
                Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Experts - a question here from a 9-year old boy.


                Sooo...if a lust for power plays some role in causing the wearer of
                the ring to become invisible, it wouldn't have that effect on
                hobbits, would it?

                Fimbrethil


                --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Anna" <IdrilCelebrindal@a...> wrote:

                > I think you mean domination?  The power of preservation would be a
                > power.  I'm not sure how the power to dominate would be related to
                > invisibility.  I always wondered about what would happen if Boromir
                > grabbed the Ring.




                Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                and Calendar sections.
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions


                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              • Anna
                Yep... lots of interesting points! I m not sure I d place too much emphasis on the symbolic meaning of becoming invisible for the rings in Tolkien s work.
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Yep... lots of interesting points!

                  I'm not sure I'd place too much emphasis on the symbolic meaning of
                  becoming invisible for the rings in Tolkien's work. Bilbo's ring was
                  invented to help Bilbo in his adventures and was later modified to
                  become the centerpiece of LOTR. The first edition of "the Hobbit"
                  had (I believe) Gollum actually giving the Ring to Bilbo. That, of
                  course, had to be changed if it was to become the One Ring.

                  I think Tolkien had to work around the invisibility thing once he
                  decided to make Bilbo's ring the One Ring. He was able to work in a
                  lot of new properties without making LOTR inconsistant with the
                  Hobbit... but I think invisibility was just something he was stuck
                  with.

                  The ring does accentuate the sneaky parts of Bilbo's personality
                  in "The Hobbit"... but I don't think those properties fit well with
                  those who would wish to use it for blunt-force domination. Or even
                  the Wormtongue kind of deception. But since Sauron made the Ring for
                  himself, it didn't really have to work properly for anyone else.

                  Idril/Anna
                • Arathion
                  ... Oh No! There are now Orcish Network Techs to go against the Elvish Marines. Cheers, C.P./Arathion
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                    > I reckon that it was because Sauron knew how to
                    > configure the settings for
                    > visible/invisible
                    Oh No!
                    There are now Orcish Network Techs to go against the
                    Elvish Marines.
                    Cheers,
                    C.P./Arathion
                  • Arathion
                    Flying, definitely flying. Fire up the Superman main title march and away I d go. Cheers, C.P./Arathion
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Flying, definitely flying.
                      Fire up the Superman main title march and away I'd go.
                      Cheers,
                      C.P./Arathion
                    • bluelily 17
                      There would be many dangers if EVERYONE could fly ... But I would love to fly instead of having the power to be invisible (flee vs. hide....Flee seems to win
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment

                        There would be many dangers if EVERYONE could fly ... 

                         But I would love to fly instead of having the power to be invisible (flee vs. hide....Flee seems to win out...hmmm I probably tend to avoid confrontations...)

                        bluelily

                         



                        Bluelily
                        Not all those who wander are lost.
                        Dream like you'll live forever, Live like you'll die today.



                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.