Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Tookishness

Expand Messages
  • Jack
    But Sam, Pippin and Merry go too... ... From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WV Tenor Sent: 14
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 14, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      But Sam, Pippin and Merry go too...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WV Tenor
      Sent: 14 September 2011 15:22
      To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Tookishness


      Bilbo, Frodo, etc. are described as very unusual hobbits
      --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jack@...> wrote:
      >
      > Does Tolkien ever talk about this anywhere else?
      > The books are full of hobbits going on adventures, so yes!
      > Bilbo is constantly longing to be back in his hobbit hole, but he gets on
      > with it and faces down dragons...



      ------------------------------------

      Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
      of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
      and Calendar sections.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Morjuc
      I can just imagine conversations among the reecent pioneers... You think this winter is bad! Grandpa Proudfoot could tell you a lBah! ittle something about
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 14, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        I can just imagine conversations among the reecent pioneers...
        "You think this winter is bad! Grandpa Proudfoot could tell you a lBah! ittle something about winter in the mountains. We were lucky if we had one meal a day, not five like you young tots."
        Tolkien does mention something about Bilbo's tookish side awakening at times. I think during the dwarf song at the start of the Hobbit. This would then just the secret, untapped adventursome side of his personality? Frodo also is set apart in many ways from other hobbits, by descriptions of him both before and after his injury by the wraith sword.
        Is Gollumn's group of hobbits the earliest 'historical' mention of hobbits by tolkien?


        Alyssa

        --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson" <bruce_alan_wilson@...> wrote:
        >
        > If you look at the passage, the narrator does say that the idea of a "fairy" strain in the Tooks was balderdash
        >
        > And I agree with Jack that the trek across Eriador to the Shire probably knocked the desire for 'adventure' out of most Hobbits; especially the second and third generation who had been raised on horror stories that had 'grown in the telling.'
        >
        > Bruce Alan Wilson
        > http://www.wvdemolay.org/
        > http://main.nationalmssociety.org/goto/Bruce_Alan_Wilson_2011
        >
        > The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart. ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
        >
      • Rob
        You know, all this talk about the migratory patterns and relation of Gollum s people to hobbits makes me wonder what Tolkien s view on evolution was. Some
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 14, 2011
        • 0 Attachment

          You know, all this talk about the migratory patterns and relation of Gollum’s people to hobbits makes me wonder what Tolkien’s view on evolution was. Some religious groups have strong anti-evolution beliefs and Tolkien clearly had some powerful religious ideas (i.e. strongly held beliefs) personally.

           

          For some reason I always had the impression that the Stoors were a less evolved race of Hobbits, an earlier strain. Don’t know why I think this. I guess because they disappear which I always took to mean moving on and changing into Hobbits since an entire race being wiped out would, you’d think, be noted by someone yet gone they were.

           

          Rob

        • mbranparker
          Just wanted to say Ive been a member for years, mostly silent but its always nice getting a dose of Tolkien. Enjoyed the description below by Allysa. I still
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 15, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Just wanted to say Ive been a member for years, mostly silent but its always nice getting a dose of Tolkien. Enjoyed the description below by Allysa. I still remember when I first saw the imagery of the Dwarves song thru Bilbo's eyes. I got the Hobbit at 15 years old and had no idea of LOTR or Tolkien. Just found the book and started reading it. Wow! 30 years later Im still in Love with the entire epic inc Silmirilion.

            The Hobbits of Bilbo and Frodo's era had definitely become soft and kind of tame. The world was not something to venture out into and seemed as if it was something to avoid. Of course its amongst such a people that arise heroes that end up saving middle earth. Id say that as a people, hobbits were made of heroic stock. The later development into adventure-loathing and world-fearing types was an aberration. Gandalf knew it all the while. All others, except, perhaps Radagast and Aragorn seemed to have forgotten. Also these appears to be some heroic stock in the Farmer Maggot types and Hobbits along the Brandywine.

            --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Morjuc" <morjuc@...> wrote:
            >
            > I can just imagine conversations among the reecent pioneers...
            > "You think this winter is bad! Grandpa Proudfoot could tell you a lBah! ittle something about winter in the mountains. We were lucky if we had one meal a day, not five like you young tots."
            > Tolkien does mention something about Bilbo's tookish side awakening at times. I think during the dwarf song at the start of the Hobbit. This would then just the secret, untapped adventursome side of his personality? Frodo also is set apart in many ways from other hobbits, by descriptions of him both before and after his injury by the wraith sword.
            > Is Gollumn's group of hobbits the earliest 'historical' mention of hobbits by tolkien?
            >
            >
            > Alyssa
            >
            > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson" <bruce_alan_wilson@> wrote:
            > >
            > > If you look at the passage, the narrator does say that the idea of a "fairy" strain in the Tooks was balderdash
            > >
            > > And I agree with Jack that the trek across Eriador to the Shire probably knocked the desire for 'adventure' out of most Hobbits; especially the second and third generation who had been raised on horror stories that had 'grown in the telling.'
            > >
            > > Bruce Alan Wilson
            > > http://www.wvdemolay.org/
            > > http://main.nationalmssociety.org/goto/Bruce_Alan_Wilson_2011
            > >
            > > The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart. ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
            > >
            >
          • Bruce Alan Wilson
            I think this is the reflection of JRRT s WWI experience. His unit was the local militia from Greater Birmingham--factory workers, farmhands, bank clerks,
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 15, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              I think this is the reflection of JRRT's WWI experience.
               
              His unit was the local militia from Greater Birmingham--factory workers, farmhands, bank clerks, college students, schoolteachers, shop assitants, office clerks; basically a cross-section of English society of the time, leaving out the nobility and landed gentry.
               
              Yet they were the descendants of Norman knights, Saxon berserkers, Viking raiders, Celtic warriors---just needing some spark to arouse that spirit.
               
              Bilbo was dragged kicking and screaming out of his nice, safe, narrow, snug, smug existance as a well-to-do middle-aged bachelor into a world full of things he could scarcely have imagined.  Some of it was wonderful; some of it was horrible.  All of it was exciting.  And he found himself doing things that nobody--least of all himself!--would have thought he was capable of doing, and discovering that he was both braver and cleverer than anyone--including himself--though he was.
               
              Even in the very first serious adventure with the trolls, even though he made mistakes and nearly got everyone killed, he never paniced and lost his head. 
               
              The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
            • B P
              Really great insight re the soldiers of WWI comparison with the hobbits of Bilbo s era. Now going out on a limb I must ask this forum a controversial question.
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 17, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Really great insight re the soldiers of WWI comparison with the hobbits of Bilbo's era. Now going out on a limb I must ask this forum a controversial question.

                Is there any chance Tolkien got hold of some 'forbidden' histories of the old world and was allowed to present them as fiction and as his creation? As we know all cultures speak of the ancients and their era full of mysticism and magic. Yet mainstream academia claims it all to be false and mere myth and exaggeration. In my view the worlds of Tolkien and Howard (Conan's universe)in particular, read like authentic histories.

                Im not saying I believe this theory but both of these writers appear to have tapped into an alternate history of the world.

                --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson" <bruce_alan_wilson@...> wrote:
                >
                > I think this is the reflection of JRRT's WWI experience.
                >
                > His unit was the local militia from Greater Birmingham--factory workers, farmhands, bank clerks, college students, schoolteachers, shop assitants, office clerks; basically a cross-section of English society of the time, leaving out the nobility and landed gentry.
                >
                > Yet they were the descendants of Norman knights, Saxon berserkers, Viking raiders, Celtic warriors---just needing some spark to arouse that spirit.
                >
                > Bilbo was dragged kicking and screaming out of his nice, safe, narrow, snug, smug existance as a well-to-do middle-aged bachelor into a world full of things he could scarcely have imagined. Some of it was wonderful; some of it was horrible. All of it was exciting. And he found himself doing things that nobody--least of all himself!--would have thought he was capable of doing, and discovering that he was both braver and cleverer than anyone--including himself--though he was.
                >
                > Even in the very first serious adventure with the trolls, even though he made mistakes and nearly got everyone killed, he never paniced and lost his head.
                >
                > Bruce Alan Wilson
                > http://www.wvdemolay.org/
                > http://main.nationalmssociety.org/goto/Bruce_Alan_Wilson_2011
                >
                > The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart. ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
                >
              • Jack
                Tolkien did in fact claim to be translating from ancient Elvish manuscripts. This may be true, but of course he had written the Elvish himself! ... Jack ...
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 17, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tolkien did in fact claim to be translating from ancient Elvish manuscripts.

                  This may be true, but of course he had written the Elvish himself!

                  :o)
                  Jack
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of B P
                  Sent: 17 September 2011 16:15
                  To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Myth or History?

                  Really great insight re the soldiers of WWI comparison with the hobbits of
                  Bilbo's era. Now going out on a limb I must ask this forum a controversial
                  question.

                  Is there any chance Tolkien got hold of some 'forbidden' histories of the
                  old world and was allowed to present them as fiction and as his creation? As
                  we know all cultures speak of the ancients and their era full of mysticism
                  and magic. Yet mainstream academia claims it all to be false and mere myth
                  and exaggeration. In my view the worlds of Tolkien and Howard (Conan's
                  universe)in particular, read like authentic histories.

                  Im not saying I believe this theory but both of these writers appear to have
                  tapped into an alternate history of the world.

                  --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson"
                  <bruce_alan_wilson@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I think this is the reflection of JRRT's WWI experience.
                  >
                  > His unit was the local militia from Greater Birmingham--factory workers,
                  farmhands, bank clerks, college students, schoolteachers, shop assitants,
                  office clerks; basically a cross-section of English society of the time,
                  leaving out the nobility and landed gentry.
                  >
                  > Yet they were the descendants of Norman knights, Saxon berserkers, Viking
                  raiders, Celtic warriors---just needing some spark to arouse that spirit.
                  >
                  > Bilbo was dragged kicking and screaming out of his nice, safe, narrow,
                  snug, smug existance as a well-to-do middle-aged bachelor into a world full
                  of things he could scarcely have imagined. Some of it was wonderful; some
                  of it was horrible. All of it was exciting. And he found himself doing
                  things that nobody--least of all himself!--would have thought he was capable
                  of doing, and discovering that he was both braver and cleverer than
                  anyone--including himself--though he was.
                  >
                  > Even in the very first serious adventure with the trolls, even though he
                  made mistakes and nearly got everyone killed, he never paniced and lost his
                  head.
                  >
                  > Bruce Alan Wilson
                  > http://www.wvdemolay.org/
                  > http://main.nationalmssociety.org/goto/Bruce_Alan_Wilson_2011
                  >
                  > The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of
                  transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in
                  heart. ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
                  >




                  ------------------------------------

                  Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                  of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                  and Calendar sections.
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • B P
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 17, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    :-) Elvish and Illuvatar created by him yet teh archetypes are ancient.

                    --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jack@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Tolkien did in fact claim to be translating from ancient Elvish manuscripts.
                    >
                    > This may be true, but of course he had written the Elvish himself!
                    >
                    > :o)
                    > Jack
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of B P
                    > Sent: 17 September 2011 16:15
                    > To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Myth or History?
                    >
                    > Really great insight re the soldiers of WWI comparison with the hobbits of
                    > Bilbo's era. Now going out on a limb I must ask this forum a controversial
                    > question.
                    >
                    > Is there any chance Tolkien got hold of some 'forbidden' histories of the
                    > old world and was allowed to present them as fiction and as his creation? As
                    > we know all cultures speak of the ancients and their era full of mysticism
                    > and magic. Yet mainstream academia claims it all to be false and mere myth
                    > and exaggeration. In my view the worlds of Tolkien and Howard (Conan's
                    > universe)in particular, read like authentic histories.
                    >
                    > Im not saying I believe this theory but both of these writers appear to have
                    > tapped into an alternate history of the world.
                    >
                    > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson"
                    > <bruce_alan_wilson@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I think this is the reflection of JRRT's WWI experience.
                    > >
                    > > His unit was the local militia from Greater Birmingham--factory workers,
                    > farmhands, bank clerks, college students, schoolteachers, shop assitants,
                    > office clerks; basically a cross-section of English society of the time,
                    > leaving out the nobility and landed gentry.
                    > >
                    > > Yet they were the descendants of Norman knights, Saxon berserkers, Viking
                    > raiders, Celtic warriors---just needing some spark to arouse that spirit.
                    > >
                    > > Bilbo was dragged kicking and screaming out of his nice, safe, narrow,
                    > snug, smug existance as a well-to-do middle-aged bachelor into a world full
                    > of things he could scarcely have imagined. Some of it was wonderful; some
                    > of it was horrible. All of it was exciting. And he found himself doing
                    > things that nobody--least of all himself!--would have thought he was capable
                    > of doing, and discovering that he was both braver and cleverer than
                    > anyone--including himself--though he was.
                    > >
                    > > Even in the very first serious adventure with the trolls, even though he
                    > made mistakes and nearly got everyone killed, he never paniced and lost his
                    > head.
                    > >
                    > > Bruce Alan Wilson
                    > > http://www.wvdemolay.org/
                    > > http://main.nationalmssociety.org/goto/Bruce_Alan_Wilson_2011
                    > >
                    > > The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of
                    > transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in
                    > heart. ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                    > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                    > and Calendar sections.
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.