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RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A stupid Question, I am sure

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  • Jack
    Perhaps they read her poetry which neither scanned nor rhymed? ... From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 30, 2009
      Perhaps they read her poetry which neither scanned nor rhymed?

      -----Original Message-----
      From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WV Tenor
      Sent: 30 September 2009 19:57
      To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A stupid Question, I am sure

      --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rob1138@...> wrote:
      >
      > <<The second LOTR movie shows orcs being manufactured in Saruman's orc
      > factory, but I think that was just the film maker's imagination, rather
      than
      > Tolkien's...>>
      >
      > I thought that was a callback to Morgoth's original making of orcs. I
      think
      > the book says Sauron sent Uruk-Hai to Saruman.
      >
      > Rob
      >
      According to the Silmarillion, the orcs "lived and multiplied after the
      manner of the Children of Illuvatar", which lead the Eldar to conclude that
      they were Elves whom Morgoth had ruined, but it also says that nobody really
      knows because few have been to the depths of Morgoth's fortress, and even
      fewer can or will speak of it. Some of the oldest Elvish songs, dating from
      the days at Cuvienen, the lake where the Elves awoke, speak of Elves being
      snatched away in the night, and it also says that when the Eldar first
      encountered orcs in Beleriand they "deemed them to be Avari who had become
      wild and strange, in which they guessed all too closely, some believe."

      And I think it was Elrond's wife who was raped by orcs in the Misty
      Mountains; JRRT doesn't say so in so many words, but he does say that
      something horrible happened to her, so horrible that although she healed in
      body her spiritual/mental/emotional damage was such that she had to seek the
      Havens.



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    • Rob
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 30, 2009
        <<And I think it was Elrond's wife who was raped by orcs in the Misty
        Mountains; JRRT doesn't say so in so many words, but he does say that
        something horrible happened to her, so horrible that although she healed in
        body her spiritual/mental/emotional damage was such that she had to seek the
        Havens.>>

        That is the tale I am thinking of. Personally I couldn't interpret it any
        way other than rape, but Tolkien leaves it vague.

        Rob
      • Gary Bellinger
        Can t remember where or what volume it was in, but I am pretty sure you are right about Elrond s wife being raped by the orcs. IIRC, she was and tortured by
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 30, 2009
          Can't remember where or what volume it was in, but I am pretty sure you are
          right about Elrond's wife being raped by the orcs. IIRC, she was and
          tortured by Orcs in the Redhorn Gate, Celebrían left Elrond and went over
          the sea to seek healing. I believe there were numerous mentions about
          Elrond's son, I believe they were Elrohir and Elladan, going on Orc raids in
          vengeance of her torture.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Rob" <rob1138@...>
          To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:56 PM
          Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A stupid Question, I am sure


          > <<And I think it was Elrond's wife who was raped by orcs in the Misty
          > Mountains; JRRT doesn't say so in so many words, but he does say that
          > something horrible happened to her, so horrible that although she healed
          > in
          > body her spiritual/mental/emotional damage was such that she had to seek
          > the
          > Havens.>>
          >
          > That is the tale I am thinking of. Personally I couldn't interpret it any
          > way other than rape, but Tolkien leaves it vague.
          >
          > Rob
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
          > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
          > and Calendar sections.
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
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