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A stupid Question, I am sure

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  • abiguglyguy
    I think Rob s question about the origins of drangons most interesting. It puts me into mind of a question I have always had. Where do little Orcs come from?
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 29 9:24 AM
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      I think Rob's question about the origins of drangons most interesting. It puts me into mind of a question I have always had. Where do little Orcs come from? Do Orcs reproduce sexually, or are they "manufactured" in some way? Somewhere in the Tolkien oeuvre I believe I once read about Orcs "multiplying" somewhere or other. This implied sexual reproducion to me. Are there Orc Women? Orc Females?
    • Rob
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 29 12:58 PM
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        <<Where do little Orcs come from? Do Orcs reproduce sexually, or are they
        "manufactured" in some way? Somewhere in the Tolkien oeuvre I believe I once
        read about Orcs "multiplying" somewhere or other. This implied sexual
        reproducion to me. Are there Orc Women? Orc Females?>>

        I don't know the answer to this, but I bet Bruce will.

        I've always assumed they reproduced normally, or at least close to normally.
        The reason I've thought so is because it has also always seemed to me that
        Tolkien was implying that one of his female elven characters was raped by
        orcs back in Beleriand. I forget which female, though. Well, after it
        happened she became sullen and silent and I think eventually she just
        wandered off to die. Gack - can you tell I haven't re-read Silmarillion or
        HoME for awhile???

        Anyway, I figure if they can rape someone they must have sexual capabilities
        and if they have that they must be able to reproduce sexually.

        OTOH, in Tolkien's world perversions of Morgoth/Sauron are never created,
        just perverted from other's creations so... who knows? (I'll assume Bruce
        does. He always does!)

        :)

        Rob
      • Jack
        You may be thinking about Celebrian - Arwen s mother, Galadriel s daughter Regards Jack ... From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 29 1:20 PM
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          You may be thinking about Celebrian - Arwen's mother, Galadriel's daughter
          Regards
          Jack

          -----Original Message-----
          From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob
          Sent: 29 September 2009 20:59
          To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] A stupid Question, I am sure

          <<Where do little Orcs come from? Do Orcs reproduce sexually, or are they
          "manufactured" in some way? Somewhere in the Tolkien oeuvre I believe I once
          read about Orcs "multiplying" somewhere or other. This implied sexual
          reproducion to me. Are there Orc Women? Orc Females?>>

          I don't know the answer to this, but I bet Bruce will.

          I've always assumed they reproduced normally, or at least close to normally.
          The reason I've thought so is because it has also always seemed to me that
          Tolkien was implying that one of his female elven characters was raped by
          orcs back in Beleriand. I forget which female, though. Well, after it
          happened she became sullen and silent and I think eventually she just
          wandered off to die. Gack - can you tell I haven't re-read Silmarillion or
          HoME for awhile???

          Anyway, I figure if they can rape someone they must have sexual capabilities
          and if they have that they must be able to reproduce sexually.

          OTOH, in Tolkien's world perversions of Morgoth/Sauron are never created,
          just perverted from other's creations so... who knows? (I'll assume Bruce
          does. He always does!)

          :)

          Rob



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        • Gary Bellinger
          As far as I know, Orcs did engage in sexual reproduction. If I recall correctly, the original orcs/hobgoblins, etc were derived or corrupted from wayward
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 29 1:28 PM
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            As far as I know, Orcs did engage in sexual reproduction. If I recall
            correctly, the "original" orcs/hobgoblins, etc were derived or corrupted
            from wayward elves that were captured by Morgoth/Melkor's dark minions.

            I suspect that there was some sort of "birth factory" that they used to
            multiply so quickly and I would further suspect that the Orc females were
            used in a tortured, endless manner reproducing another after another after
            another orc baby as soon as possible after they have given birth amd being
            tossed aside when they couldn't perform this corrupted function any longer.

            How close am I Bruce?

            Gary

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Rob" <rob1138@...>
            To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 3:58 PM
            Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] A stupid Question, I am sure


            > <<Where do little Orcs come from? Do Orcs reproduce sexually, or are they
            > "manufactured" in some way? Somewhere in the Tolkien oeuvre I believe I
            > once
            > read about Orcs "multiplying" somewhere or other. This implied sexual
            > reproducion to me. Are there Orc Women? Orc Females?>>
            >
            > I don't know the answer to this, but I bet Bruce will.
            >
            > I've always assumed they reproduced normally, or at least close to
            > normally.
            > The reason I've thought so is because it has also always seemed to me that
            > Tolkien was implying that one of his female elven characters was raped by
            > orcs back in Beleriand. I forget which female, though. Well, after it
            > happened she became sullen and silent and I think eventually she just
            > wandered off to die. Gack - can you tell I haven't re-read Silmarillion or
            > HoME for awhile???
            >
            > Anyway, I figure if they can rape someone they must have sexual
            > capabilities
            > and if they have that they must be able to reproduce sexually.
            >
            > OTOH, in Tolkien's world perversions of Morgoth/Sauron are never created,
            > just perverted from other's creations so... who knows? (I'll assume Bruce
            > does. He always does!)
            >
            > :)
            >
            > Rob
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
            > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
            > and Calendar sections.
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Jack
            Orcs are multiplying again in the Misty Mountains - it s from The Hobbit It s exceptional for humans to have twins. But rats - Rats live for about one year
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 29 3:22 PM
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              Orcs are multiplying again in the Misty Mountains - it's from The Hobbit

              It's exceptional for humans to have twins. But rats - Rats live for about
              one year and the females can produce up to six litters a year, with a litter
              size on average of six to eleven. If orcs reproduce like rats, then you
              don't need to think about manufacturing!

              The second LOTR movie shows orcs being manufactured in Saruman's orc
              factory, but I think that was just the film maker's imagination, rather than
              Tolkien's...

              Hth
              Jack

              -----Original Message-----
              From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of abiguglyguy
              Sent: 29 September 2009 17:25
              To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] A stupid Question, I am sure

              I think Rob's question about the origins of drangons most interesting. It
              puts me into mind of a question I have always had. Where do little Orcs
              come from? Do Orcs reproduce sexually, or are they "manufactured" in some
              way? Somewhere in the Tolkien oeuvre I believe I once read about Orcs
              "multiplying" somewhere or other. This implied sexual reproducion to me.
              Are there Orc Women? Orc Females?





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            • Rob
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 29 5:08 PM
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                <<The second LOTR movie shows orcs being manufactured in Saruman's orc
                factory, but I think that was just the film maker's imagination, rather than
                Tolkien's...>>

                I thought that was a callback to Morgoth's original making of orcs. I think
                the book says Sauron sent Uruk-Hai to Saruman.

                Rob
              • WV Tenor
                ... According to the Silmarillion, the orcs lived and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar , which lead the Eldar to conclude that they
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 30 11:57 AM
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                  --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rob1138@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > <<The second LOTR movie shows orcs being manufactured in Saruman's orc
                  > factory, but I think that was just the film maker's imagination, rather than
                  > Tolkien's...>>
                  >
                  > I thought that was a callback to Morgoth's original making of orcs. I think
                  > the book says Sauron sent Uruk-Hai to Saruman.
                  >
                  > Rob
                  >
                  According to the Silmarillion, the orcs "lived and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar", which lead the Eldar to conclude that they were Elves whom Morgoth had ruined, but it also says that nobody really knows because few have been to the depths of Morgoth's fortress, and even fewer can or will speak of it. Some of the oldest Elvish songs, dating from the days at Cuvienen, the lake where the Elves awoke, speak of Elves being snatched away in the night, and it also says that when the Eldar first encountered orcs in Beleriand they "deemed them to be Avari who had become wild and strange, in which they guessed all too closely, some believe."

                  And I think it was Elrond's wife who was raped by orcs in the Misty Mountains; JRRT doesn't say so in so many words, but he does say that something horrible happened to her, so horrible that although she healed in body her spiritual/mental/emotional damage was such that she had to seek the Havens.
                • Jack
                  Perhaps they read her poetry which neither scanned nor rhymed? ... From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 30 12:57 PM
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                    Perhaps they read her poetry which neither scanned nor rhymed?

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WV Tenor
                    Sent: 30 September 2009 19:57
                    To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A stupid Question, I am sure

                    --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rob1138@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > <<The second LOTR movie shows orcs being manufactured in Saruman's orc
                    > factory, but I think that was just the film maker's imagination, rather
                    than
                    > Tolkien's...>>
                    >
                    > I thought that was a callback to Morgoth's original making of orcs. I
                    think
                    > the book says Sauron sent Uruk-Hai to Saruman.
                    >
                    > Rob
                    >
                    According to the Silmarillion, the orcs "lived and multiplied after the
                    manner of the Children of Illuvatar", which lead the Eldar to conclude that
                    they were Elves whom Morgoth had ruined, but it also says that nobody really
                    knows because few have been to the depths of Morgoth's fortress, and even
                    fewer can or will speak of it. Some of the oldest Elvish songs, dating from
                    the days at Cuvienen, the lake where the Elves awoke, speak of Elves being
                    snatched away in the night, and it also says that when the Eldar first
                    encountered orcs in Beleriand they "deemed them to be Avari who had become
                    wild and strange, in which they guessed all too closely, some believe."

                    And I think it was Elrond's wife who was raped by orcs in the Misty
                    Mountains; JRRT doesn't say so in so many words, but he does say that
                    something horrible happened to her, so horrible that although she healed in
                    body her spiritual/mental/emotional damage was such that she had to seek the
                    Havens.



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                  • Rob
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 30 1:56 PM
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                      <<And I think it was Elrond's wife who was raped by orcs in the Misty
                      Mountains; JRRT doesn't say so in so many words, but he does say that
                      something horrible happened to her, so horrible that although she healed in
                      body her spiritual/mental/emotional damage was such that she had to seek the
                      Havens.>>

                      That is the tale I am thinking of. Personally I couldn't interpret it any
                      way other than rape, but Tolkien leaves it vague.

                      Rob
                    • Gary Bellinger
                      Can t remember where or what volume it was in, but I am pretty sure you are right about Elrond s wife being raped by the orcs. IIRC, she was and tortured by
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 30 8:13 PM
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                        Can't remember where or what volume it was in, but I am pretty sure you are
                        right about Elrond's wife being raped by the orcs. IIRC, she was and
                        tortured by Orcs in the Redhorn Gate, Celebrían left Elrond and went over
                        the sea to seek healing. I believe there were numerous mentions about
                        Elrond's son, I believe they were Elrohir and Elladan, going on Orc raids in
                        vengeance of her torture.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Rob" <rob1138@...>
                        To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:56 PM
                        Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A stupid Question, I am sure


                        > <<And I think it was Elrond's wife who was raped by orcs in the Misty
                        > Mountains; JRRT doesn't say so in so many words, but he does say that
                        > something horrible happened to her, so horrible that although she healed
                        > in
                        > body her spiritual/mental/emotional damage was such that she had to seek
                        > the
                        > Havens.>>
                        >
                        > That is the tale I am thinking of. Personally I couldn't interpret it any
                        > way other than rape, but Tolkien leaves it vague.
                        >
                        > Rob
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                        > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                        > and Calendar sections.
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
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