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RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question

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  • Rob
    You might want
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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      << if the One Ring has no great effect on the
      Elven rings, then why did Galadriel said she would diminish when Frodo
      destroyed the One Ring? >>

      You might want to read "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" which is in
      Tolkien's "Unfinished Tales." It is an essay which examines the making of
      the rings, etc.

      Short answer would be that the elven rings weren't made by Sauron, just made
      via techniques he invented and which, I guess we can assume, somehow used
      magics he had discovered or some such. So when he tied up much of his power
      into the One Ring I guess whatever function his techniques served in the
      ringmaking process were also tied up with the One Ring.

      This connection (magical, so it can't really be explained scientifically or
      logically) is why the One Ring could have "ruled them all." But the elves
      became aware of this connection and so didn't use the rings actively (IIRC).
      They just had them.

      I've never been clear on whether or not the elves used the rings to
      safeguard/build their realms or not. Galadriel implies that Lothlorien will
      fade and no longer be the immortal realm of beauty it has been up to this
      point once the Ring is destroyed. Does this mean she actively used it in the
      building of Lothlorien or simply that her elven ring had a passive effect of
      stopping the flow of time's effects on her realm (similar to how the One
      Ring had its effect on Bilbo and Gollum) and that once the One was gone her
      ring would no longer have that time-stopping power?

      I don't know. Honestly, it has always been the three rings that I felt
      Tolkien left the most vague and ambiguous. We know all about the nine and
      seven and what they did, but the three seem very vague. Of course there
      could be information in the HoME series about the three that I simply
      haven't gotten to yet, also! :)

      Rob
    • Bruce Alan Wilson
      My theory is that it is the nature of rings of power that they give you what you most desire, and protect you from what you most fear, but at a very heavy
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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        My theory is that it is the nature of rings of power that they give you what you most desire, and protect you from what you most fear, but at a very heavy price.
         
        What do men desire?  Power over other men.  What do men fear?  Death.
         
        What do elves fear?  Time and change.  What do they desire?  "To preserve all good things unchanged," as Elrond says.
         
        What do dwarves fear?  Poverty.  What do they desire?  Wealth.
         
        What do hobbits fear?  Just about everything, as they are small and weak.  What do they desire?  To be able to hide from their enemies.  (In "The Hobbit" the narrator says that their native magic was 'the ordinary sort that enable them to disappear quickly and quietly when large, stupid folk like you and me come blundering along. . . )
         
        In each case, the Rings of Power grant what the bearers desire, and protect them from what they fear, but at a high price.
         
        The Nine Men do not die, and gain great power.  Yet they no longer are really alive, and that power is subservient to the greater power of Sauron.
         
        Dwarves used their rings to amass wealth and give themselves security, but the rings also inflamed their natural greed to the point of avarice.
         
        The Elves indeed use the rings to create enclaves like Rivendell and Lorien, where change and decay are slowed and almost halted.  But they loose creativity, and withdraw into those enclaves.
         
        Although no Rings were made for hobbits specifically, we know what happened to the three hobbits who posessed a Great Ring for any significant amount of time.  (I think it did not ruin Bilbo and Frodo as badly as it did Smeagol because [a] both were better, nicer people to begin with and [b] they did not acquire the Ring  by violence--chance in the case of Bilbo, a free offering in the case of Frodo.  [Gandalf did bully him a little, but it was ultimately Bilbo's free choice.])

        Bruce Alan Wilson
        http://www.wvdemolay.org/
         
         
         

        The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
      • eledhwen5
        As I said earlier, The One ring has no GREAT effect when the same is not worn by sauron himself since one of the purpose of the the One ring is to control the
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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          As I said earlier, The One ring has no GREAT effect when the same is not worn by sauron himself since one of the purpose of the the One ring is to control the other rings of power. You are correct in saying that the Elven rings derived their power from the One Ring or Sauron himself (I'm not sure which or who) that is why the three would lose their power once the One ring is destroyed.

          --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "dpwsin" <dpwsin@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Thank you all for the clarifications. Now I have a better idea of what
          > is going on.
          >
          > Still one more question: But if the One Ring has no great effect on the
          > Elven rings, then why did Galadriel said she would diminish when Frodo
          > destroyed the One Ring? It seems mentioned somewhere in the Fellowship
          > of the Ring that the Elven rings derived the power from the One Ring or
          > from Sauron. So when they are destroyed, the Elves would lose their
          > grandeur. Beside, how is the One Ring is supposed to "rule them all" ?
          >
          > Daniel
          >
          > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "eledhwen5" <eledhwen5@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > 4)It had effect on the ring of Galadriel. Frodo, being a ring-bearer
          > was able to see Galadriel wearing the ring while others (i.e. Sam) could
          > not. The One ring has no great effect on the 3 elven rings, when It is
          > not worn by sauron considering that they were not made by Sauron
          > himself.
          > > >
          >
        • Jack
          Very well put, Bruce You forgot (c) Smeagol possessed and used the ring for much longer than Frodo or even Bilbo ... Jack From:
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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            Very well put, Bruce

             

            You forgot (c) Smeagol possessed and used the ring for much longer than Frodo or even Bilbo

             

            :o)
            Jack

             

            From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Alan Wilson
            Sent: 02 September 2009 00:51
            To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question

             




            My theory is that it is the nature of rings of power that they give you what you most desire, and protect you from what you most fear, but at a very heavy price.

             

            What do men desire?  Power over other men.  What do men fear?  Death.

             

            What do elves fear?  Time and change.  What do they desire?  "To preserve all good things unchanged," as Elrond says.

             

            What do dwarves fear?  Poverty.  What do they desire?  Wealth.

             

            What do hobbits fear?  Just about everything, as they are small and weak.  What do they desire?  To be able to hide from their enemies.  (In "The Hobbit" the narrator says that their native magic was 'the ordinary sort that enable them to disappear quickly and quietly when large, stupid folk like you and me come blundering along. . . )

             

            In each case, the Rings of Power grant what the bearers desire, and protect them from what they fear, but at a high price.

             

            The Nine Men do not die, and gain great power.  Yet they no longer are really alive, and that power is subservient to the greater power of Sauron.

             

            Dwarves used their rings to amass wealth and give themselves security, but the rings also inflamed their natural greed to the point of avarice.

             

            The Elves indeed use the rings to create enclaves like Rivendell and Lorien, where change and decay are slowed and almost halted.  But they loose creativity, and withdraw into those enclaves.

             

            Although no Rings were made for hobbits specifically, we know what happened to the three hobbits who posessed a Great Ring for any significant amount of time.  (I think it did not ruin Bilbo and Frodo as badly as it did Smeagol because [a] both were better, nicer people to begin with and [b] they did not acquire the Ring  by violence--chance in the case of Bilbo, a free offering in the case of Frodo.  [Gandalf did bully him a little, but it was ultimately Bilbo's free choice.])


            Bruce Alan Wilson
            http://www.wvdemolay.org/

             

             

             


            The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green




          • Gary Bellinger
            And Smeagol was the last to hold it too. ... From: Jack To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 2:50 AM Subject: RE:
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 2, 2009
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              And Smeagol was the last to hold it too.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Jack
              Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 2:50 AM
              Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question

              Very well put, Bruce

               

              You forgot (c) Smeagol possessed and used the ring for much longer than Frodo or even Bilbo

               

              :o)
              Jack

               

              From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Alan Wilson
              Sent: 02 September 2009 00:51
              To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question

               




              My theory is that it is the nature of rings of power that they give you what you most desire, and protect you from what you most fear, but at a very heavy price.

               

              What do men desire?  Power over other men.  What do men fear?  Death.

               

              What do elves fear?  Time and change.  What do they desire?  "To preserve all good things unchanged," as Elrond says.

               

              What do dwarves fear?  Poverty.  What do they desire?  Wealth.

               

              What do hobbits fear?  Just about everything, as they are small and weak.  What do they desire?  To be able to hide from their enemies.  (In "The Hobbit" the narrator says that their native magic was 'the ordinary sort that enable them to disappear quickly and quietly when large, stupid folk like you and me come blundering along. . . )

               

              In each case, the Rings of Power grant what the bearers desire, and protect them from what they fear, but at a high price.

               

              The Nine Men do not die, and gain great power.  Yet they no longer are really alive, and that power is subservient to the greater power of Sauron.

               

              Dwarves used their rings to amass wealth and give themselves security, but the rings also inflamed their natural greed to the point of avarice.

               

              The Elves indeed use the rings to create enclaves like Rivendell and Lorien, where change and decay are slowed and almost halted.  But they loose creativity, and withdraw into those enclaves.

               

              Although no Rings were made for hobbits specifically, we know what happened to the three hobbits who posessed a Great Ring for any significant amount of time.  (I think it did not ruin Bilbo and Frodo as badly as it did Smeagol because [a] both were better, nicer people to begin with and [b] they did not acquire the Ring  by violence--chance in the case of Bilbo, a free offering in the case of Frodo.  [Gandalf did bully him a little, but it was ultimately Bilbo's free choice.])


              Bruce Alan Wilson
              http://www.wvdemolay.org/

               

               

               


              The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green




            • Bruce Alan Wilson
              Also, Bilbo used it for benign purposes (recovering stolen goods, avoiding unpleasant relatives), and Frodo hardly used it at all. Bruce Alan Wilson
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 3, 2009
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                Also, Bilbo used it for benign purposes (recovering stolen goods, avoiding unpleasant relatives), and Frodo hardly used it at all.

                Bruce Alan Wilson
                http://www.wvdemolay.org/
                 
                 
                 

                The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
              • Gary Bellinger
                Samwise also briefly used it when he was in Shelob s Lair. While technically not a ringbearer along the lines of Frodo, Bilbo and Smeagol, he did have trouble
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 3, 2009
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                  Samwise also briefly used it when he was in Shelob's Lair. While technically not a ringbearer along the lines of Frodo, Bilbo and Smeagol, he did have trouble giving it up back to Frodo (which certainly spared him any grief through its use), but it did eventually lead to his being granted passage into the West.
                   
                  Gary
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 9:06 PM
                  Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question

                  Also, Bilbo used it for benign purposes (recovering stolen goods, avoiding unpleasant relatives), and Frodo hardly used it at all.

                  Bruce Alan Wilson
                  http://www.wvdemolay.org/
                   
                   
                   

                  The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
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