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Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question

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  • eledhwen5
    1)Some of the dwarf rings were lost while some were eaten by dragons. 2)The rings made for the dwarves had a different effect on them much like the One ring
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 31, 2009
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      1)Some of the dwarf rings were lost while some were eaten by dragons.
      2)The rings made for the dwarves had a different effect on them much like the One ring which would have a different effect when used by others and the Elven rings; the efect caused on the dwarves were that it made them more greedy for gold, hence the deeper delving of moria causing the awakening of the balrog.
      3)The other two rings are with Elrond and Cirdan who later gave it to Gandalf.
      4)It had effect on the ring of Galadriel. Frodo, being a ring-bearer was able to see Galadriel wearing the ring while others (i.e. Sam) could not. The One ring has no great effect on the 3 elven rings, when It is not worn by sauron considering that they were not made by Sauron himself.
      >
      >
      > On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 9:30 AM, dpwsin <dpwsin@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > And what happened to the seven rings that were given to the Dwarf-lords?
      > Why were they not turned into ringwraiths? And what about the three
      > rings that were held by the Elves. Galadriel had one, so where are the
      > two? If the One Ring has power over the other "lesser" rings, why were
      > there no "special effects" when the One Ring is near to Galadriel's ring
      > in Lothlorien?
      >
    • dpwsin
      Thank you all for the clarifications. Now I have a better idea of what is going on. Still one more question: But if the One Ring has no great effect on the
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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        Thank you all for the clarifications. Now I have a better idea of what
        is going on.

        Still one more question: But if the One Ring has no great effect on the
        Elven rings, then why did Galadriel said she would diminish when Frodo
        destroyed the One Ring? It seems mentioned somewhere in the Fellowship
        of the Ring that the Elven rings derived the power from the One Ring or
        from Sauron. So when they are destroyed, the Elves would lose their
        grandeur. Beside, how is the One Ring is supposed to "rule them all" ?

        Daniel

        --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "eledhwen5" <eledhwen5@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > 4)It had effect on the ring of Galadriel. Frodo, being a ring-bearer
        was able to see Galadriel wearing the ring while others (i.e. Sam) could
        not. The One ring has no great effect on the 3 elven rings, when It is
        not worn by sauron considering that they were not made by Sauron
        himself.
        > >
      • Jack
        Dwarves are not immortal - just long-lived It takes a long time to grow a beard that you can tuck into your belt... ... Jack From:
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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          Dwarves are not immortal – just long-lived

           

          It takes a long time to grow a beard that you can tuck into your belt...

           

          :o)
          Jack

           

          From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob
          Sent: 31 August 2009 19:45
          To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Fellowship of the Ring Question

           




          I don’t recall or know why Frodo’s sword breaks. Sorry.

           

          The dwarves did not become wraiths because their rings inflamed their greed and desire for gold rather than their desire for immortality and power which is what the rings inflamed in men.

           

          The dwarves are already immortal so the long-life capability of the rings wouldn’t affect them by turning them into wraiths as it did with the non-immortal men. And as mentioned above, the rings played on different vices/desires of theirs than they did with men.

           

          I’ve never been able to keep straight who had the elven rings. Galadriel had one, I think Elrond did, and I think Gandalf was given one by the master of the Grey Havens (whose name I forget).

           

          And IIRC the elven rings were created purely by the elves, Sauron had no part in their making other than that he had shown them the way to make rings of power, so while they had a downside, they weren’t directly created by evil and so the effects were less deleterious.

           

          Rob




        • Jack
          Nope ... Jack ... From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DelennWen@aol.com Sent: 31 August 2009
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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            Nope

            :o)
            Jack


            -----Original Message-----
            From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DelennWen@...
            Sent: 31 August 2009 19:53
            To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Fellowship of the Ring Question

            Dwarves are immortal?

            Wendy E.


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Rob <rob1138@...>
            To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:44 am
            Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Fellowship of the Ring Question










            I don’t recall or know why Frodo’s sword breaks. Sorry.



            The dwarves did not become wraiths because their rings inflamed their
            greed and desire for gold rather than their desire for immortality and
            power which is what the rings inflamed in men.



            The dwarves are already immortal so the long-life capability of the
            rings wouldn’t affect them by turning them into wraiths as it did with
            the non-immortal men. And as mentioned above, the rings played on
            different vices/desires of theirs than they did with men.



            I’ve never been able to keep straight who had the elven rings.
            Galadriel had one, I think Elrond did, and I think Gandalf was given
            one by the master of the Grey Havens (whose name I forget).



            And IIRC the elven rings were created purely by the elves, Sauron had
            no part in their making other than that he had shown them the way to
            make rings of power, so while they had a downside, they weren’t
            directly created by evil and so the effects were less deleterious.



            Rob










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          • Jack
            Sauron s ring was the master - designed to control all magical rings. Even though Sauron was not involved in their making, Celebrimbor (the smith) had learned
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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              Sauron's ring was the master - designed to control all magical rings.

              Even though Sauron was not involved in their making, Celebrimbor (the smith)
              had learned the technology from Sauron.

              The elves hoped that if the one ring was destroyed, the three would be free
              - but they feared that this would not be so

              :o)
              Jack


              -----Original Message-----
              From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dpwsin
              Sent: 01 September 2009 17:06
              To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question



              Thank you all for the clarifications. Now I have a better idea of what
              is going on.

              Still one more question: But if the One Ring has no great effect on the
              Elven rings, then why did Galadriel said she would diminish when Frodo
              destroyed the One Ring? It seems mentioned somewhere in the Fellowship
              of the Ring that the Elven rings derived the power from the One Ring or
              from Sauron. So when they are destroyed, the Elves would lose their
              grandeur. Beside, how is the One Ring is supposed to "rule them all" ?

              Daniel

              --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "eledhwen5" <eledhwen5@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > 4)It had effect on the ring of Galadriel. Frodo, being a ring-bearer
              was able to see Galadriel wearing the ring while others (i.e. Sam) could
              not. The One ring has no great effect on the 3 elven rings, when It is
              not worn by sauron considering that they were not made by Sauron
              himself.
              > >





              ------------------------------------

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              of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
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              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Rob
              You might want
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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                << if the One Ring has no great effect on the
                Elven rings, then why did Galadriel said she would diminish when Frodo
                destroyed the One Ring? >>

                You might want to read "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" which is in
                Tolkien's "Unfinished Tales." It is an essay which examines the making of
                the rings, etc.

                Short answer would be that the elven rings weren't made by Sauron, just made
                via techniques he invented and which, I guess we can assume, somehow used
                magics he had discovered or some such. So when he tied up much of his power
                into the One Ring I guess whatever function his techniques served in the
                ringmaking process were also tied up with the One Ring.

                This connection (magical, so it can't really be explained scientifically or
                logically) is why the One Ring could have "ruled them all." But the elves
                became aware of this connection and so didn't use the rings actively (IIRC).
                They just had them.

                I've never been clear on whether or not the elves used the rings to
                safeguard/build their realms or not. Galadriel implies that Lothlorien will
                fade and no longer be the immortal realm of beauty it has been up to this
                point once the Ring is destroyed. Does this mean she actively used it in the
                building of Lothlorien or simply that her elven ring had a passive effect of
                stopping the flow of time's effects on her realm (similar to how the One
                Ring had its effect on Bilbo and Gollum) and that once the One was gone her
                ring would no longer have that time-stopping power?

                I don't know. Honestly, it has always been the three rings that I felt
                Tolkien left the most vague and ambiguous. We know all about the nine and
                seven and what they did, but the three seem very vague. Of course there
                could be information in the HoME series about the three that I simply
                haven't gotten to yet, also! :)

                Rob
              • Bruce Alan Wilson
                My theory is that it is the nature of rings of power that they give you what you most desire, and protect you from what you most fear, but at a very heavy
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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                  My theory is that it is the nature of rings of power that they give you what you most desire, and protect you from what you most fear, but at a very heavy price.
                   
                  What do men desire?  Power over other men.  What do men fear?  Death.
                   
                  What do elves fear?  Time and change.  What do they desire?  "To preserve all good things unchanged," as Elrond says.
                   
                  What do dwarves fear?  Poverty.  What do they desire?  Wealth.
                   
                  What do hobbits fear?  Just about everything, as they are small and weak.  What do they desire?  To be able to hide from their enemies.  (In "The Hobbit" the narrator says that their native magic was 'the ordinary sort that enable them to disappear quickly and quietly when large, stupid folk like you and me come blundering along. . . )
                   
                  In each case, the Rings of Power grant what the bearers desire, and protect them from what they fear, but at a high price.
                   
                  The Nine Men do not die, and gain great power.  Yet they no longer are really alive, and that power is subservient to the greater power of Sauron.
                   
                  Dwarves used their rings to amass wealth and give themselves security, but the rings also inflamed their natural greed to the point of avarice.
                   
                  The Elves indeed use the rings to create enclaves like Rivendell and Lorien, where change and decay are slowed and almost halted.  But they loose creativity, and withdraw into those enclaves.
                   
                  Although no Rings were made for hobbits specifically, we know what happened to the three hobbits who posessed a Great Ring for any significant amount of time.  (I think it did not ruin Bilbo and Frodo as badly as it did Smeagol because [a] both were better, nicer people to begin with and [b] they did not acquire the Ring  by violence--chance in the case of Bilbo, a free offering in the case of Frodo.  [Gandalf did bully him a little, but it was ultimately Bilbo's free choice.])

                  Bruce Alan Wilson
                  http://www.wvdemolay.org/
                   
                   
                   

                  The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
                • eledhwen5
                  As I said earlier, The One ring has no GREAT effect when the same is not worn by sauron himself since one of the purpose of the the One ring is to control the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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                    As I said earlier, The One ring has no GREAT effect when the same is not worn by sauron himself since one of the purpose of the the One ring is to control the other rings of power. You are correct in saying that the Elven rings derived their power from the One Ring or Sauron himself (I'm not sure which or who) that is why the three would lose their power once the One ring is destroyed.

                    --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "dpwsin" <dpwsin@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you all for the clarifications. Now I have a better idea of what
                    > is going on.
                    >
                    > Still one more question: But if the One Ring has no great effect on the
                    > Elven rings, then why did Galadriel said she would diminish when Frodo
                    > destroyed the One Ring? It seems mentioned somewhere in the Fellowship
                    > of the Ring that the Elven rings derived the power from the One Ring or
                    > from Sauron. So when they are destroyed, the Elves would lose their
                    > grandeur. Beside, how is the One Ring is supposed to "rule them all" ?
                    >
                    > Daniel
                    >
                    > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "eledhwen5" <eledhwen5@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > 4)It had effect on the ring of Galadriel. Frodo, being a ring-bearer
                    > was able to see Galadriel wearing the ring while others (i.e. Sam) could
                    > not. The One ring has no great effect on the 3 elven rings, when It is
                    > not worn by sauron considering that they were not made by Sauron
                    > himself.
                    > > >
                    >
                  • Jack
                    Very well put, Bruce You forgot (c) Smeagol possessed and used the ring for much longer than Frodo or even Bilbo ... Jack From:
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 1, 2009
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                      Very well put, Bruce

                       

                      You forgot (c) Smeagol possessed and used the ring for much longer than Frodo or even Bilbo

                       

                      :o)
                      Jack

                       

                      From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Alan Wilson
                      Sent: 02 September 2009 00:51
                      To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question

                       




                      My theory is that it is the nature of rings of power that they give you what you most desire, and protect you from what you most fear, but at a very heavy price.

                       

                      What do men desire?  Power over other men.  What do men fear?  Death.

                       

                      What do elves fear?  Time and change.  What do they desire?  "To preserve all good things unchanged," as Elrond says.

                       

                      What do dwarves fear?  Poverty.  What do they desire?  Wealth.

                       

                      What do hobbits fear?  Just about everything, as they are small and weak.  What do they desire?  To be able to hide from their enemies.  (In "The Hobbit" the narrator says that their native magic was 'the ordinary sort that enable them to disappear quickly and quietly when large, stupid folk like you and me come blundering along. . . )

                       

                      In each case, the Rings of Power grant what the bearers desire, and protect them from what they fear, but at a high price.

                       

                      The Nine Men do not die, and gain great power.  Yet they no longer are really alive, and that power is subservient to the greater power of Sauron.

                       

                      Dwarves used their rings to amass wealth and give themselves security, but the rings also inflamed their natural greed to the point of avarice.

                       

                      The Elves indeed use the rings to create enclaves like Rivendell and Lorien, where change and decay are slowed and almost halted.  But they loose creativity, and withdraw into those enclaves.

                       

                      Although no Rings were made for hobbits specifically, we know what happened to the three hobbits who posessed a Great Ring for any significant amount of time.  (I think it did not ruin Bilbo and Frodo as badly as it did Smeagol because [a] both were better, nicer people to begin with and [b] they did not acquire the Ring  by violence--chance in the case of Bilbo, a free offering in the case of Frodo.  [Gandalf did bully him a little, but it was ultimately Bilbo's free choice.])


                      Bruce Alan Wilson
                      http://www.wvdemolay.org/

                       

                       

                       


                      The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green




                    • Gary Bellinger
                      And Smeagol was the last to hold it too. ... From: Jack To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 2:50 AM Subject: RE:
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 2, 2009
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                        And Smeagol was the last to hold it too.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Jack
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 2:50 AM
                        Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question

                        Very well put, Bruce

                         

                        You forgot (c) Smeagol possessed and used the ring for much longer than Frodo or even Bilbo

                         

                        :o)
                        Jack

                         

                        From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Alan Wilson
                        Sent: 02 September 2009 00:51
                        To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question

                         




                        My theory is that it is the nature of rings of power that they give you what you most desire, and protect you from what you most fear, but at a very heavy price.

                         

                        What do men desire?  Power over other men.  What do men fear?  Death.

                         

                        What do elves fear?  Time and change.  What do they desire?  "To preserve all good things unchanged," as Elrond says.

                         

                        What do dwarves fear?  Poverty.  What do they desire?  Wealth.

                         

                        What do hobbits fear?  Just about everything, as they are small and weak.  What do they desire?  To be able to hide from their enemies.  (In "The Hobbit" the narrator says that their native magic was 'the ordinary sort that enable them to disappear quickly and quietly when large, stupid folk like you and me come blundering along. . . )

                         

                        In each case, the Rings of Power grant what the bearers desire, and protect them from what they fear, but at a high price.

                         

                        The Nine Men do not die, and gain great power.  Yet they no longer are really alive, and that power is subservient to the greater power of Sauron.

                         

                        Dwarves used their rings to amass wealth and give themselves security, but the rings also inflamed their natural greed to the point of avarice.

                         

                        The Elves indeed use the rings to create enclaves like Rivendell and Lorien, where change and decay are slowed and almost halted.  But they loose creativity, and withdraw into those enclaves.

                         

                        Although no Rings were made for hobbits specifically, we know what happened to the three hobbits who posessed a Great Ring for any significant amount of time.  (I think it did not ruin Bilbo and Frodo as badly as it did Smeagol because [a] both were better, nicer people to begin with and [b] they did not acquire the Ring  by violence--chance in the case of Bilbo, a free offering in the case of Frodo.  [Gandalf did bully him a little, but it was ultimately Bilbo's free choice.])


                        Bruce Alan Wilson
                        http://www.wvdemolay.org/

                         

                         

                         


                        The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green




                      • Bruce Alan Wilson
                        Also, Bilbo used it for benign purposes (recovering stolen goods, avoiding unpleasant relatives), and Frodo hardly used it at all. Bruce Alan Wilson
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 3, 2009
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                          Also, Bilbo used it for benign purposes (recovering stolen goods, avoiding unpleasant relatives), and Frodo hardly used it at all.

                          Bruce Alan Wilson
                          http://www.wvdemolay.org/
                           
                           
                           

                          The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
                        • Gary Bellinger
                          Samwise also briefly used it when he was in Shelob s Lair. While technically not a ringbearer along the lines of Frodo, Bilbo and Smeagol, he did have trouble
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 3, 2009
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                            Samwise also briefly used it when he was in Shelob's Lair. While technically not a ringbearer along the lines of Frodo, Bilbo and Smeagol, he did have trouble giving it up back to Frodo (which certainly spared him any grief through its use), but it did eventually lead to his being granted passage into the West.
                             
                            Gary
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 9:06 PM
                            Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Fellowship of the Ring Question

                            Also, Bilbo used it for benign purposes (recovering stolen goods, avoiding unpleasant relatives), and Frodo hardly used it at all.

                            Bruce Alan Wilson
                            http://www.wvdemolay.org/
                             
                             
                             

                            The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
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