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Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary

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  • John Davis
    Hi, I think the difference between Hobbit and LotR elves is due to a change in Tolkien s writing style and thoughts, not something that can or should be
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 22, 2008
      Hi,

      I think the difference between Hobbit and LotR elves is due to a change in
      Tolkien's writing style and thoughts, not something that can or should be
      justified within the reality of the world. Unless, as I think someone else
      suggested, one takes the elves of the Hobbit as being Bilbo's description of
      them for children he was telling the tale to. Save that even then, the
      narrator of the Hobbit is clearly not Bilbo but a more modern voice -
      whatever internal-reality version of the tale Bilbo told, it is not the book
      The Hobbit as we have it.

      John
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Matt" <tea_party@...>
      To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:50 AM
      Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary


      > Technically, Loegolas, through his father Thranduil, the High King of
      > the Woodelves of Mirkwood, was Sindarin, not Silvan. Maybe the Silvan
      > elves really are more dwarvish in their bearing, while their Sindarin
      > rulers bring a bit of refined Beleriand comport to the woodland realm.
      >
      > Having said that, the Elves that they met in Rivendell were pretty
      > silly... other than Elrond and some of the other high born Elves.
      >
      > Matt West
      >
      >
      > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rob1138@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> I've always thought that the portrayal of the "wood elves" in The
      > Hobbit and
      >> Legolas in LotR were not in congruence with each other. Legolas
      > seems a lot
      >> more like a "high" elf than the elves in The Hobbit do.
      >>
      >> I guess we can chalk it up to differences in Bilbo's and Frodo's writing
      >> style (Bilbo, jokester that he is as witnessed by his trick at the
      > beginning
      >> of LotR, creates a more buffoonish portrayal than the more serious
      > recorder
      >> Frodo does). Do we know when Bilbo wrote "The Hobbit" sections of
      > the Red
      >> Book? Perhaps he even wrote his tale as a story to tell his young
      > nephew or
      >> various children hobbits in Hobbiton. (Children seem more likely to
      > listen
      >> to his "foolishness" than the more "regular joe" adults in Hobbiton who
      >> would look on Bilbo's stories as "queer" or maybe even Tookish!)
      >>
      >> Robert
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
      > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
      > and Calendar sections.
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Matt
      Ultimately we have to look at the creation of the Hobbit. JRRT sat down to write it as a tale for children. He began to loosely fit it into the world that he
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 22, 2008
        Ultimately we have to look at the creation of the Hobbit. JRRT sat
        down to write it as a tale for children. He began to loosely fit it
        into the world that he was creating for his Book of Lost Tales, which
        later became The Silmarillion, but he never really intended to make it
        consistent with that universe. When he began to write LOTR, it started
        out as another children's tale, and ended up being the finale to his
        then unpublished Middle-earth writings. The book quickly evolved from
        a second children's book to an epic for adults!

        The Hobbit would certainly be cooler if it were written at the same
        level as LotR or The Children of Hurin, rather than being written as a
        children's book. As with so much of Tolkien's work, we have regrets
        that he was not able to complete them in his lifetime to his satisfaction.

        Matt West



        --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "John Davis" <mcxg46@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I think the difference between Hobbit and LotR elves is due to a
        change in
        > Tolkien's writing style and thoughts, not something that can or
        should be
        > justified within the reality of the world. Unless, as I think
        someone else
        > suggested, one takes the elves of the Hobbit as being Bilbo's
        description of
        > them for children he was telling the tale to. Save that even then, the
        > narrator of the Hobbit is clearly not Bilbo but a more modern voice -
        > whatever internal-reality version of the tale Bilbo told, it is not
        the book
        > The Hobbit as we have it.
        >
        > John
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Matt" <tea_party@...>
        > To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:50 AM
        > Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary
        >
        >
        > > Technically, Loegolas, through his father Thranduil, the High King of
        > > the Woodelves of Mirkwood, was Sindarin, not Silvan. Maybe the Silvan
        > > elves really are more dwarvish in their bearing, while their Sindarin
        > > rulers bring a bit of refined Beleriand comport to the woodland realm.
        > >
        > > Having said that, the Elves that they met in Rivendell were pretty
        > > silly... other than Elrond and some of the other high born Elves.
        > >
        > > Matt West
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rob1138@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> I've always thought that the portrayal of the "wood elves" in The
        > > Hobbit and
        > >> Legolas in LotR were not in congruence with each other. Legolas
        > > seems a lot
        > >> more like a "high" elf than the elves in The Hobbit do.
        > >>
        > >> I guess we can chalk it up to differences in Bilbo's and Frodo's
        writing
        > >> style (Bilbo, jokester that he is as witnessed by his trick at the
        > > beginning
        > >> of LotR, creates a more buffoonish portrayal than the more serious
        > > recorder
        > >> Frodo does). Do we know when Bilbo wrote "The Hobbit" sections of
        > > the Red
        > >> Book? Perhaps he even wrote his tale as a story to tell his young
        > > nephew or
        > >> various children hobbits in Hobbiton. (Children seem more likely to
        > > listen
        > >> to his "foolishness" than the more "regular joe" adults in
        Hobbiton who
        > >> would look on Bilbo's stories as "queer" or maybe even Tookish!)
        > >>
        > >> Robert
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
        > > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
        > > and Calendar sections.
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • John Davis
        Dare we hope that PJ s version will restore the Hobbit to a LotR-like version?! John ... From: Matt To:
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 22, 2008
          Dare we hope that PJ's version will restore the Hobbit to a LotR-like
          version?!

          John
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Matt" <tea_party@...>
          To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:44 PM
          Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary


          > Ultimately we have to look at the creation of the Hobbit. JRRT sat
          > down to write it as a tale for children. He began to loosely fit it
          > into the world that he was creating for his Book of Lost Tales, which
          > later became The Silmarillion, but he never really intended to make it
          > consistent with that universe. When he began to write LOTR, it started
          > out as another children's tale, and ended up being the finale to his
          > then unpublished Middle-earth writings. The book quickly evolved from
          > a second children's book to an epic for adults!
          >
          > The Hobbit would certainly be cooler if it were written at the same
          > level as LotR or The Children of Hurin, rather than being written as a
          > children's book. As with so much of Tolkien's work, we have regrets
          > that he was not able to complete them in his lifetime to his satisfaction.
          >
          > Matt West
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "John Davis" <mcxg46@...>
          > wrote:
          >>
          >> Hi,
          >>
          >> I think the difference between Hobbit and LotR elves is due to a
          > change in
          >> Tolkien's writing style and thoughts, not something that can or
          > should be
          >> justified within the reality of the world. Unless, as I think
          > someone else
          >> suggested, one takes the elves of the Hobbit as being Bilbo's
          > description of
          >> them for children he was telling the tale to. Save that even then, the
          >> narrator of the Hobbit is clearly not Bilbo but a more modern voice -
          >> whatever internal-reality version of the tale Bilbo told, it is not
          > the book
          >> The Hobbit as we have it.
          >>
          >> John
          >> ----- Original Message -----
          >> From: "Matt" <tea_party@...>
          >> To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:50 AM
          >> Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary
          >>
          >>
          >> > Technically, Loegolas, through his father Thranduil, the High King of
          >> > the Woodelves of Mirkwood, was Sindarin, not Silvan. Maybe the Silvan
          >> > elves really are more dwarvish in their bearing, while their Sindarin
          >> > rulers bring a bit of refined Beleriand comport to the woodland realm.
          >> >
          >> > Having said that, the Elves that they met in Rivendell were pretty
          >> > silly... other than Elrond and some of the other high born Elves.
          >> >
          >> > Matt West
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rob1138@> wrote:
          >> >>
          >> >> I've always thought that the portrayal of the "wood elves" in The
          >> > Hobbit and
          >> >> Legolas in LotR were not in congruence with each other. Legolas
          >> > seems a lot
          >> >> more like a "high" elf than the elves in The Hobbit do.
          >> >>
          >> >> I guess we can chalk it up to differences in Bilbo's and Frodo's
          > writing
          >> >> style (Bilbo, jokester that he is as witnessed by his trick at the
          >> > beginning
          >> >> of LotR, creates a more buffoonish portrayal than the more serious
          >> > recorder
          >> >> Frodo does). Do we know when Bilbo wrote "The Hobbit" sections of
          >> > the Red
          >> >> Book? Perhaps he even wrote his tale as a story to tell his young
          >> > nephew or
          >> >> various children hobbits in Hobbiton. (Children seem more likely to
          >> > listen
          >> >> to his "foolishness" than the more "regular joe" adults in
          > Hobbiton who
          >> >> would look on Bilbo's stories as "queer" or maybe even Tookish!)
          >> >>
          >> >> Robert
          >> >>
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
          >> > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
          >> > and Calendar sections.
          >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
          >> >
          >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
          > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
          > and Calendar sections.
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Gary Bellinger
          I think these elves are different from the high elves that Tolkien wrote about in the Sil and elves of LOTR because The Hobbit was written more as a children s
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 22, 2008
            I think these elves are different from the high elves that Tolkien wrote
            about in the Sil and elves of LOTR because The Hobbit was written more as a
            children's story, hence their clownish nature. There was probably more to
            them than that but with the nature of the book, Tolkien didn't delve too
            much into it.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Matt" <tea_party@...>
            To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 7:39 PM
            Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary


            > These Elves are more like Dwarves than like the high Elves that we met
            > in The Silmarillion. They are coarse and crude and taken to drink and
            > partying. I guess seeing the light of the Valar really does have an
            > effect on Elves, because the Eldar are certainly not clownish as these
            > Elves are.
            >
            > I am looking forward to meeting the King again and finding out more
            > about him.
            >
            > I like Bilbo's escape plan, though it is a bit questionable whether or
            > not the Elves would have check the barrels that appeared to be full
            > when they were supposed to be empty.
            >
            > Matt West
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, steveseg@... wrote:
            >>
            >> "Barrels Out of Bond" is the title of chapter IX in J. R. R.
            > Tolkien's "The
            >> Hobbit." It begins with Bilbo and the dwarves, sans Thorin, making
            > one last
            >> despairing effort to obtain food, water and shelter. Their battle
            > with Shelob's
            >> brood had virtually exhausted their last reserves. As the day
            > wanes, they
            >> are ambushed by and captured by a party of Wood Elves. All except
            > for Bilbo who
            >> pops on the Ring and unobserved, follows the captors and the dwarves.
            >>
            >> Into their island fortress on the Forest River, near the eastern
            > edge of
            >> Mirkwood, they all go. The prisoners are brought before the
            > Elvenking and like
            >> Thorin, are questioned as to their destination and the why of it.
            > All the
            >> dwarves are thrown into the dungeons until such time as they feel
            > like talking.
            >> All in individual cells. They are unaware of Thorin's plight in the
            > deepest
            >> dungeon until apprised of it by Bilbo.
            >>
            >> For the hobbit had been wandering around and exploring the palace of
            > the
            >> elves. He began looking for a way out that did not include the
            >> magically-controlled gate. He survives for over two weeks by
            > stealing food while invisible and
            >> also spent this time ascertaining the precise location of each
            > dwarf. When
            >> this is accomplished, he relates to the dwarves that Thorin too is a
            > prisoner
            >> and wants them all to keep their mouths shut. For they had been
            > weakening in
            >> their resolve.
            >>
            >> The dwarves must rely on Bilbo to find a means of escape and they
            > trust that
            >> he will. Their faith is not misplaced. He discovers how the elves
            > trade with
            >> the men of Long Lake. The elven goods are put in barrels and floated
            > out of
            >> the palace, down the Forest River, to Long Lake at the confluence of
            > the
            >> Running and Forest Rivers.
            >>
            >> After releasing all of the dwarves and showing ingenuity in the
            > process,
            >> Bilbo puts all the dwarves into barrels and they are included with
            > the other
            >> barrels full of trade items for the men of Long Lake. The plot is
            > almost
            >> discovered by some of the Wood-elves but the Galion the butler,
            > quashes their
            >> inquiry concerning the "heavier than they should be" barrels.
            >>
            >> At the last moment, Bilbo realizes he too must escape and jumps upon
            > the
            >> last barrel and rides it for all its worth, while invisible. It was
            > no easy task
            >> and soon he joined the raft-elves as they journeyed down the Forest
            > River to
            >> the Running. Once again, he escape plot is almost detected but once
            > again,
            >> impatience wins the day for the hobbit and dwarves. As they continue
            > their
            >> flight and leave Mirkwood behind, Bilbo wonders at the fate of the
            > dwarves. Did
            >> they yet live?
            >>
            >> Steve S.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
            >
            >> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
            > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
            > and Calendar sections.
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.8/1235 - Release Date:
            > 21/01/2008 9:39 AM
            >
            >
          • Gary Bellinger
            Dare we pray that PJ s version of The Hobbit will stay within the spirit of Tolkien s Middle-Earth and not some alternate world!?! Gary ... From: John Davis
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 22, 2008
              Dare we pray that PJ's version of The Hobbit will stay within the spirit of
              Tolkien's Middle-Earth and not some alternate world!?!

              Gary

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John Davis" <mcxg46@...>
              To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:39 AM
              Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary


              > Dare we hope that PJ's version will restore the Hobbit to a LotR-like
              > version?!
              >
              > John
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Matt" <tea_party@...>
              > To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:44 PM
              > Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary
              >
              >
              >> Ultimately we have to look at the creation of the Hobbit. JRRT sat
              >> down to write it as a tale for children. He began to loosely fit it
              >> into the world that he was creating for his Book of Lost Tales, which
              >> later became The Silmarillion, but he never really intended to make it
              >> consistent with that universe. When he began to write LOTR, it started
              >> out as another children's tale, and ended up being the finale to his
              >> then unpublished Middle-earth writings. The book quickly evolved from
              >> a second children's book to an epic for adults!
              >>
              >> The Hobbit would certainly be cooler if it were written at the same
              >> level as LotR or The Children of Hurin, rather than being written as a
              >> children's book. As with so much of Tolkien's work, we have regrets
              >> that he was not able to complete them in his lifetime to his
              >> satisfaction.
              >>
              >> Matt West
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "John Davis" <mcxg46@...>
              >> wrote:
              >>>
              >>> Hi,
              >>>
              >>> I think the difference between Hobbit and LotR elves is due to a
              >> change in
              >>> Tolkien's writing style and thoughts, not something that can or
              >> should be
              >>> justified within the reality of the world. Unless, as I think
              >> someone else
              >>> suggested, one takes the elves of the Hobbit as being Bilbo's
              >> description of
              >>> them for children he was telling the tale to. Save that even then, the
              >>> narrator of the Hobbit is clearly not Bilbo but a more modern voice -
              >>> whatever internal-reality version of the tale Bilbo told, it is not
              >> the book
              >>> The Hobbit as we have it.
              >>>
              >>> John
              >>> ----- Original Message -----
              >>> From: "Matt" <tea_party@...>
              >>> To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
              >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:50 AM
              >>> Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> > Technically, Loegolas, through his father Thranduil, the High King of
              >>> > the Woodelves of Mirkwood, was Sindarin, not Silvan. Maybe the Silvan
              >>> > elves really are more dwarvish in their bearing, while their Sindarin
              >>> > rulers bring a bit of refined Beleriand comport to the woodland realm.
              >>> >
              >>> > Having said that, the Elves that they met in Rivendell were pretty
              >>> > silly... other than Elrond and some of the other high born Elves.
              >>> >
              >>> > Matt West
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rob1138@> wrote:
              >>> >>
              >>> >> I've always thought that the portrayal of the "wood elves" in The
              >>> > Hobbit and
              >>> >> Legolas in LotR were not in congruence with each other. Legolas
              >>> > seems a lot
              >>> >> more like a "high" elf than the elves in The Hobbit do.
              >>> >>
              >>> >> I guess we can chalk it up to differences in Bilbo's and Frodo's
              >> writing
              >>> >> style (Bilbo, jokester that he is as witnessed by his trick at the
              >>> > beginning
              >>> >> of LotR, creates a more buffoonish portrayal than the more serious
              >>> > recorder
              >>> >> Frodo does). Do we know when Bilbo wrote "The Hobbit" sections of
              >>> > the Red
              >>> >> Book? Perhaps he even wrote his tale as a story to tell his young
              >>> > nephew or
              >>> >> various children hobbits in Hobbiton. (Children seem more likely to
              >>> > listen
              >>> >> to his "foolishness" than the more "regular joe" adults in
              >> Hobbiton who
              >>> >> would look on Bilbo's stories as "queer" or maybe even Tookish!)
              >>> >>
              >>> >> Robert
              >>> >>
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
              >>> > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
              >>> > and Calendar sections.
              >>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
              >>> >
              >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
              >> of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
              >> and Calendar sections.
              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
              > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
              > and Calendar sections.
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9/1237 - Release Date:
              > 22/01/2008 11:04 AM
              >
              >
            • Peter Chapman
              Most definitely. These elves are the Teleri - the high elves in middle earth are Noldor - who are interested in crafts. The Teleri are more rustic - and
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 22, 2008
                Most definitely. These elves are the Teleri - the high elves in middle earth are Noldor - who are interested in crafts. The Teleri are more rustic - and perhaps less wise,
                 
                L-o-H
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:08 PM
                Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary

                I think these elves are different from the high elves that Tolkien wrote
                about in the Sil and elves of LOTR because The Hobbit was written more as a
                children's story, hence their clownish nature. There was probably more to
                them than that but with the nature of the book, Tolkien didn't delve too
                much into it.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Matt" <tea_party@...>
                To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 7:39 PM
                Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary


                > These Elves are more like Dwarves than like the high Elves that we met
                > in The Silmarillion. They are coarse and crude and taken to drink and
                > partying. I guess seeing the light of the Valar really does have an
                > effect on Elves, because the Eldar are certainly not clownish as these
                > Elves are.
                >
                > I am looking forward to meeting the King again and finding out more
                > about him.
                >
                > I like Bilbo's escape plan, though it is a bit questionable whether or
                > not the Elves would have check the barrels that appeared to be full
                > when they were supposed to be empty.
                >
                > Matt West
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, steveseg@... wrote:
                >>
                >> "Barrels Out of Bond" is the title of chapter IX in J. R. R.
                > Tolkien's "The
                >> Hobbit." It begins with Bilbo and the dwarves, sans Thorin, making
                > one last
                >> despairing effort to obtain food, water and shelter. Their battle
                > with Shelob's
                >>  brood had virtually exhausted their last reserves. As the day
                > wanes, they
                >> are  ambushed by and captured by a party of Wood Elves. All except
                > for Bilbo who
                >> pops  on the Ring and unobserved, follows the captors and the dwarves.
                >>
                >> Into their island fortress on the Forest River, near the eastern
                > edge of
                >> Mirkwood, they all go. The prisoners are brought before the
                > Elvenking and like
                >> Thorin, are questioned as to their destination and the why of it.
                > All the
                >> dwarves are thrown into the dungeons until such time as they feel
                > like talking.
                >> All in individual cells. They are unaware of Thorin's plight in the
                > deepest
                >> dungeon until apprised of it by Bilbo.
                >>
                >> For the hobbit had been wandering around and exploring the palace of
                > the
                >> elves. He began looking for a way out that did not include the
                >> magically-controlled gate. He survives for over two weeks by
                > stealing food while  invisible and
                >> also spent this time ascertaining the precise location of each
                > dwarf. When
                >> this is accomplished, he relates to the dwarves that Thorin too is a
                > prisoner
                >> and wants them all to keep their mouths shut. For they had been
                > weakening in
                >> their resolve.
                >>
                >> The dwarves must rely on Bilbo to find a means of escape and they
                > trust  that
                >> he will. Their faith is not misplaced. He discovers how the elves
                > trade  with
                >> the men of Long Lake. The elven goods are put in barrels and floated
                > out of
                >> the palace, down the Forest River, to Long Lake at the confluence of
                > the
                >> Running  and Forest Rivers.
                >>
                >> After releasing all of the dwarves and showing ingenuity in the
                > process,
                >> Bilbo puts all the dwarves into barrels and they are included with
                > the other
                >> barrels full of trade items for the men of Long Lake. The plot is
                > almost
                >> discovered by some of the Wood-elves but the Galion the butler,
                > quashes their
                >> inquiry concerning the "heavier than they should be" barrels.
                >>
                >> At the last moment, Bilbo realizes he too must escape and jumps upon
                > the
                >> last barrel and rides it for all its worth, while invisible. It was
                > no easy task
                >> and soon he joined the raft-elves as they journeyed down the Forest
                > River to
                >> the  Running. Once again, he escape plot is almost detected but once
                > again,
                >> impatience wins the day for the hobbit and dwarves. As they continue
                > their
                >> flight and leave Mirkwood behind, Bilbo wonders at the fate of the
                > dwarves. Did
                >> they yet live?
                >>
                >> Steve S.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> **************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.
                >
                >> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Rob
                Obviously the real world reason why Hobbit and LotR and Silmarillion are so different is the writer s style, thinking, and audience. I m just trying to
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 22, 2008
                  Obviously the real world reason why Hobbit and LotR and Silmarillion are so
                  different is the writer's style, thinking, and audience. I'm just trying to
                  postulate a reason within the created world that would tie it all together.

                  Tolkien always had the conceit that he had not written The Hobbit or LotR,
                  but rather was a translator of texts he had found.

                  So I guess he changed his authorial voice to match what he thought was the
                  original author's intent (Bilbo, Frodo, or the various elves who wrote the
                  Silmarillion material) as any translator would do.

                  That's my story, at least. :)

                  Rob

                  ________________________________

                  From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Davis
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:24 AM
                  To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: The Hobbit - Chapter Nine Summary



                  Hi,

                  I think the difference between Hobbit and LotR elves is due to a change in
                  Tolkien's writing style and thoughts, not something that can or should be
                  justified within the reality of the world. Unless, as I think someone else
                  suggested, one takes the elves of the Hobbit as being Bilbo's description of

                  them for children he was telling the tale to. Save that even then, the
                  narrator of the Hobbit is clearly not Bilbo but a more modern voice -
                  whatever internal-reality version of the tale Bilbo told, it is not the book

                  The Hobbit as we have it.

                  John
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