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Re: Chapter One Comments

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  • Bruce Alan Wilson
    In the Silmarillion, it is stated that orcs have live after the manner of the children of Eru . That means that they were either Elves or Men at the
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 1, 2007
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      Re: Chapter One Comments

      In the Silmarillion, it is stated that orcs have live 'after the manner of the children of Eru'.  That means that they were either Elves or Men at the beginning which Meklor/Morgoth corrupted.

      As for dragons, they may have bee minor Maiar whom Morgoth put in to semireptilian form.

      Bruce Alan Wilson

      "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

    • Rob
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 1, 2007
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        <<In the Silmarillion, it is stated that orcs have live 'after the manner of
        the children of Eru'. That means that they were either Elves or Men at the
        beginning which Meklor/Morgoth corrupted.>>

        I believe orcs are corrupted elves. Maybe goblins are corrupted men (i.e.
        smaller and weaker than elves) or just orcs who have diminished.

        <<As for dragons, they may have bee minor Maiar whom Morgoth put in to
        semireptilian form.>>

        Since some Maiar seem to have inhabited trees, brooks, etc. I have no
        problem seeing them inhabiting reptiles with a little push from Morgoth.
        Certainly Morgoth's desire for "the secret flame" would seem to make it
        likely that he would be experimanting with all sorts of fell
        genetics/reproductive/evolutionary things in order to "create" life.

        I confess I don't see how it is that dwarves can not be said to have life
        "after the manner of the children of Eru," also. Despite their odd origin
        they certainly had to have had souls. I don't recall if their fate after
        death is ever described.

        Rob
      • Bruce Alan Wilson
        I confess I don t see how it is that dwarves can not be said to have life after the manner of the children of Eru, also. Despite their odd origin they
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 2, 2007
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          Re: Chapter One Comments

          "I confess I don't see how it is that dwarves can not be said to have life
          "after the manner of the children of Eru," also. Despite their odd origin
          they certainly had to have had souls. I don't recall if their fate after
          death is ever described.

          Rob"

          That was because of Eru's intervention.  Alwe on his own could not have given them life.

          As for their postmortem fate, the Sil says that Elves say that Dwarves 'go to stone' after death, but that the Dwarves themselves say that they go to a separate section of Mandos, where they wait until the End of Days, when they will help Alwe rebuild the world after the last great battle.  (That is what Thorin says at the end of the Hobbit, "I go now to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers until the world is renewed.")

          Bruce Alan Wilson

          "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

        • Jack
          Remember that The Hobbit was written before LOTR, essentially as a children’s book. When it was a success, Tolkien’s publishers asked him to write more
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 9, 2007
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            Remember that The Hobbit was written before LOTR, essentially as a children’s book. 

            When it was a success, Tolkien’s publishers asked him to write more about hobbits.  And by now his children were older

             

            Once a book is written and published, it is quite hard to release a “director’s cut” later!

             

            :o)
            Jack


            From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Matt
            Sent: 29 November 2007 16:37
            To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Chapter One Comments

             

            --- In TolkienDiscussions@ yahoogroups. com, steveseg@... wrote:

            >
            > Matt said:
            >
            > Perhaps there are different classes of troll. Perhaps cave trolls are
            > rather dim witted beasts while woodland trolls are more advanced.
            >
            >
            > Steve replies: I've heard of this theory but Bernie and Willian just
            don't seem to fit in with "The Lord of the Rings." The turning to
            stone thing is rather unreal, even for Middle-Earth.

            Agreed. I wonder if he would have removed this idea had he done a
            complete revision of The Hobbit. The way that I can justify it is by
            thinking that the trolls were created by Melkor by giving life to
            rock. When the light of Valinor (sunlight) touches them, they return
            to their original form ... okay that's a stretch .... LOL

            >
            >
            > Matt states: The spiders in Mirkwood are Maiar or creatures
            corrupted by Melkor and
            > Ungoliant, not animals, so there is no reason why they can't talk.
            >
            > Steve replies: I am aware that Ungoliant was probably a powerful
            Maiar and that Shelob was her offspring and the spiders of Mirkwood
            are offspring of Shelob. But does this make Ungoliant's offspring
            Maiar as well? And who did she mate with?
            >

            Good point. I guess they could be likened to Luthien. Special,
            powerful beings that are not quite Valar, but are not merely Elve (in
            the case of Luthien) or Spider (in the case of the spiders of Mirkwood
            and the Ered Gorgoroth and Ephel Dúath) either.

            Matt West

          • Rob
            The Annotated Hobbit has alternate readings from the original
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 9, 2007
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              <<Once a book is written and published, it is quite hard to release a
              "director's cut" later!>>

              The Annotated Hobbit has alternate readings from the original edition and
              other editions throughout The Hobbit's lifespan. For the most part, thusfar,
              the original edition's different readings from what we have today (the
              revised version) have been little things. In the 1937 edition Thorin's
              parent and grandparent are referenced, but their names aren't mentioned
              whereas in the revised edition they are named. Anachronisms like "policemen
              rarely patroled in these wild lands" is just changed to something like
              "these lands are wilder with few inns or people."

              There are a few very small changes or additions in describing the lands the
              company walk through in order to make the geography more exactly in line
              with what is in LotR. One thing noted is that it takes the dwarves one day
              to go from the river Hoarwell to where they meet the trolls, but it takes
              the Hobbits and Aragorn six days for the same trip. Apparently Tolkien wrote
              some extensive revisioning for this, or wanted to, but it was never used or
              never done or decided it was not possible to bring them in line. The
              reasoning is unclear in the notation.

              So most changes thusfar have been minor. I expect bigger changes come
              "Riddles in the Dark."

              Rob
            • Matt
              I accept the inconsistencies between The Hobbit and LotR as mistakes made by the writers (Bilbo & Frodo). Also, the inconsistencies in the Silmarillion can
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 9, 2007
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                I accept the inconsistencies between The Hobbit and LotR as "mistakes"
                made by the writers (Bilbo & Frodo). Also, the inconsistencies in the
                Silmarillion can be reconciled in this way. Mistakes in translation,
                different people telling the story, faulty memories of the story
                tellers, etc.

                Matt West



                --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rob1138@...> wrote:
                >
                > <<Once a book is written and published, it is quite hard to release a
                > "director's cut" later!>>
                >
                > The Annotated Hobbit has alternate readings from the original
                edition and
                > other editions throughout The Hobbit's lifespan. For the most part,
                thusfar,
                > the original edition's different readings from what we have today (the
                > revised version) have been little things. In the 1937 edition Thorin's
                > parent and grandparent are referenced, but their names aren't mentioned
                > whereas in the revised edition they are named. Anachronisms like
                "policemen
                > rarely patroled in these wild lands" is just changed to something like
                > "these lands are wilder with few inns or people."
                >
                > There are a few very small changes or additions in describing the
                lands the
                > company walk through in order to make the geography more exactly in line
                > with what is in LotR. One thing noted is that it takes the dwarves
                one day
                > to go from the river Hoarwell to where they meet the trolls, but it
                takes
                > the Hobbits and Aragorn six days for the same trip. Apparently
                Tolkien wrote
                > some extensive revisioning for this, or wanted to, but it was never
                used or
                > never done or decided it was not possible to bring them in line. The
                > reasoning is unclear in the notation.
                >
                > So most changes thusfar have been minor. I expect bigger changes come
                > "Riddles in the Dark."
                >
                > Rob
                >
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