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Re: Wolves in Tolkien, European folklore & religion.

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  • Gustavo
    I never faced a wolf, so, I can t say anything about shooting it. Probably, a sword might be more efficient against such kind of enemy ... Maybe trying to
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 3, 2007
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      I never faced a wolf, so, I can't say anything about shooting it.
      Probably, a sword might be more efficient against such kind of
      enemy ... Maybe trying to shoot it would be somewhat like trying to
      hitting it with an arrow: it can be done at a distance, but face-to-
      face? ... 'Dunno.

      I don't quite agree about your reading of the European understanding
      of the wolf; I think that in European history, problems with wolves
      come out of some sort of competition between man and wolf, which
      didn't quite happen in the American Indian cultures, because men
      weren't urban.

      We shouldn't forget that dogs are species of wolves, and they happen
      to be man's best friend. Once you make friends with a wolf, *he* will
      be faithful until death ("Dances-with-wolves" essays to make a
      portrait of this kind of relationship being established ...).

      JRT did let pass something about "domestic lion", through Tom
      Bombabil's poems ... "Fat cat on the mat, kept as pet ... he does not
      forget" (that he used to be a lion ...).

      (...)

      G.O.,
      Rio,
      (Portuguese) America


      --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Chapman"
      <hawkworks@...> wrote:
      >
      > The worst thing that can be said about wolves is that they are
      partial to mutton. But European folklore paints them as monsters, red
      in tooth & claw. This of course, is due to the European obsession
      with the cult of the shepherd god. In this form, they find their way
      into Tolkein's literature.
      >
      > The north American Indians have a very different view. They refer
      to them as "brother wolf - the teacher".
      >
      > Luckily PJ & co had an out. Tolkein usually refers to them as Wargs
      (Swedish for wolf) which gave PJ licence to create the hyena-like
      creatures. I don't suppose TTT would have gone down too well if the
      good guys had been forced to kill loads of waggy doggies! Nor would
      there have been many takers for RotK.
      >
      > There are still people in North America and on the edges of Europe
      who shoot wolves. This is on a par with shooting horses, eagles,
      bears, tigers, elephants and dolphins/orcas.
      >
      > L-o-H
      >
    • Bruce Alan Wilson
      Precisely. We Europeans (including Europeans in Diaspora ) are the descendants of farmers and heardsmen; no wonder we don t like wolves. Native Americans,
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 6, 2007
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        Re: Wolves in Tolkien, European folklore & religion.

        Precisely.  We Europeans (including "Europeans in Diaspora") are the descendants of farmers and heardsmen; no wonder we don't like wolves.  Native Americans, as a hunting people, would like wolves.  Neither opinion is wrong; each is perfectly valid from its point of view.

        And the kinship of the wolf and the dog is a good one, too.  I once heard a sermon on the passage in Isaiah on the Peaceable Kingdom, when "the wolf shall lie down with the lamb, the cow and the bear shall feed together, and a little child shall lead them".  The priest pointed out that the shepherd's dog was once a wolf; he also said that there was plenty of room in the Divine Kennel for both Collies and Rottweilers.

        Bruce Alan Wilson

        "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

      • Peter Chapman
        Re: Wolves in Tolkien, European folklore & religion.The wolf shall feast upon the lamb. L-o-H ... From: Bruce Alan Wilson To:
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 6, 2007
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          Re: Wolves in Tolkien, European folklore & religion.
          The wolf shall feast upon the lamb.
          L-o-H
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 5:14 PM
          Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Wolves in Tolkien, European folklore & religion.

          Precisely.  We Europeans (including "Europeans in Diaspora") are the descendants of farmers and heardsmen; no wonder we don't like wolves.  Native Americans, as a hunting people, would like wolves.  Neither opinion is wrong; each is perfectly valid from its point of view.

          And the kinship of the wolf and the dog is a good one, too.  I once heard a sermon on the passage in Isaiah on the Peaceable Kingdom, when "the wolf shall lie down with the lamb, the cow and the bear shall feed together, and a little child shall lead them".  The priest pointed out that the shepherd's dog was once a wolf; he also said that there was plenty of room in the Divine Kennel for both Collies and Rottweilers.

          Bruce Alan Wilson

          "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

        • Jack
          Isn t it the lion that lays down with the lamb? And surely the prophet is talking about something very improbable here? ... Jack... _____ From:
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 6, 2007
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            Isn’t it the lion that lays down with the lamb?

             

            And surely the prophet is talking about something very improbable here?

             

            :o)
            Jack
            ...


            From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Alan Wilson
            Sent: 06 November 2007 17:15
            To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Wolves in Tolkien, European folklore & religion.

             

            Precisely.  We Europeans (including "Europeans in Diaspora") are the descendants of farmers and heardsmen; no wonder we don't like wolves.  Native Americans, as a hunting people, would like wolves.  Neither opinion is wrong; each is perfectly valid from its point of view.

            And the kinship of the wolf and the dog is a good one, too.  I once heard a sermon on the passage in Isaiah on the Peaceable Kingdom , when "the wolf shall lie down with the lamb, the cow and the bear shall feed together, and a little child shall lead them".  The priest pointed out that the shepherd's dog was once a wolf; he also said that there was plenty of room in the Divine Kennel for both Collies and Rottweilers.

            Bruce Alan Wilson

            "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

          • Bruce Alan Wilson
            The lion/lamb bit is a misquotation. The actual passage says wolf/lamb, lion/calf. And, yes, it is improbable, but with God all things are possible. That
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 7, 2007
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              Re: Wolves in Tolkien, European folklore & religion.

              The lion/lamb bit is a misquotation.  The actual passage says wolf/lamb, lion/calf.  And, yes, it is improbable, but "with God all things are possible."  That is the point of the passage.  "Nothing shall hurt or destroy on the Holy Mountain."

              Bruce Alan Wilson

              "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

            • Peter Chapman
              Re: Wolves in Tolkien, European folklore & religion.You re preaching to the unconvertible. L-o-H ... From: Bruce Alan Wilson To:
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 8, 2007
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                Re: Wolves in Tolkien, European folklore & religion.
                You're preaching to the unconvertible.
                L-o-H
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 2:38 AM
                Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Wolves in Tolkien, European folklore & religion.

                The lion/lamb bit is a misquotation.  The actual passage says wolf/lamb, lion/calf.  And, yes, it is improbable, but "with God all things are possible."  That is the point of the passage.  "Nothing shall hurt or destroy on the Holy Mountain."

                Bruce Alan Wilson

                "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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