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RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

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  • Rob
    Message 1 of 24 , May 31, 2007
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      <<We'll never know, really, because their conception died with JRRT.>>

      I still believe that if CT wished to he could re-edit some material that is
      in the HoME series and bring it in-line with a Silmarillion proper. It would
      involve him doing some writing, though, which he seems loathe to do beyond a
      few periods and sentences. It would be a massive undertaking, really. But
      now that "Hurin" is out, what is left him?

      Granted he needs do nothing, ever, and he is still set for life as are
      everyone in his extended family AND he is like 85 years old, but... his life
      has been one of shadowing his father's work. And he's done everything I can
      think of. Somehow I doubt he'll ever actually do the re-edited Silmarillion
      he has spoken of, though. Or worse, he WILL get to it then pass away before
      finishing thereby completing the circle from father to son!

      <<The characters that I wish were more fully drawn (of those that we have
      met so
      far) are Fingolfin, Maedhros, Fingon, Finrod, Cirdan, Turgon, Thingol,
      Feanor,
      Galadriel, Finwe, and Olwe; and to a lesser degree, Finarfin.>>

      I'd like to see more of the later life of Feanor and a better death. He just
      fades away to fast and to irrelevantly.

      Maedhros has a lot of tragedy and pathos built into his situation being
      bound to duty as a son, yet personally being of a different ethical bent
      than his father or most of his brothers. We see plenty of this, actually,
      I'd just like to see it a bit more up close rather than in the outline form
      we get it.

      Cirdan, as I said, is important, but he's always on the periphery and rarely
      "on stage." He's rather like the dwarves in the War of the Ring. We are told
      they're doing something and it is important, but we never see it.

      We see lots of Turgon, but I'd like to see more of him before Gondolin so we
      can see why he is chosen to do this, why he does it, etc. And more of the
      fall of his city. We DO get a nice, long sketch of this in BoLT II. Again,
      material that, IMO, should have been incorporated into The Silmarillion (or
      should be in a re-edited version). Computers make this work a lot easier,
      CT! I'll even do all the tyoing for ya!!!

      I think we get enough of Turgon, though I may be grafting on stuff from BolT
      I and II. There is a lot of him there! And boy do we see how his character
      evolved!

      I am fine with only glimpses of Galadriel in the Silm simply because we do
      see her plenty in lotR, so it balances out.

      I concur that it would be nice to have more up-close detail on all of the
      characters listed, as well as almost all the characters, period.

      CT did the best he could, I guess, at the time. But so much more has come
      out since then I do think the overall tale of the silmarils deserves a
      "re-do."

      Rob
    • Wilson, Bruce
      There is great imagery here with Fingolfin pounding on the gates of Angband and calling Melkor to come out and fight. What strikes me as strange is that
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 1, 2007
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        There is great imagery here with Fingolfin pounding on the gates of Angband and
        calling Melkor to come out and fight. What strikes me as strange is that Melkor
        is a demi-god in corporeal form, but we know that he has the power to shape the
        land and cause volcanic eruptions and the like. How is it that there is any
        contest at all between him and Fingolfin? Why doesn't he just open up the Earth
        and swallow Fingolfin? Why doesn't he blast him with lightning? Why can't he
        swing his hammer faster? How can Fingolfin wound him? Why doesn't he have magic
        powers to defend against Fingolfin's sword?”

         

        My understanding is that Melkor had put so much of his power into dominating and controlling his various minions, and in changing their natures and endowing them with special qualities, that he didn’t have much ‘discretionary’ power left for such theatrics.

         

        Anent the Eagles, JRRT is very big on the autonomy of ‘Free’ peoples (Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits), so he doesn’t have divine agents intervene until/unless his characters have done everything in their power to solve their own problems.

         

        Bruce A. Wilson, M.Ed., M.S.L.S.

        Reference Librarian, W.Va. State Law Library

        304-558-2607 (direct dial: 304-340-3980)

        FAX: 304-558-3673

         

        The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green

         

      • Wilson, Bruce
        I always wanted deeper detail, a closer look in on this fight. AFAIK the only place this happens is in a sketch in one of the HoME series. I m not even sure
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 1, 2007
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          I always wanted deeper detail, a closer look in on this fight. AFAIK the
          only place this happens is in a sketch in one of the HoME series. I'm not
          even sure the sketch I'm talking about is about the Bragollach, but I recall
          a battle of evil monsters and tank-like machines that shares enough in
          common with this battle that it at least was a pre-cursor, IIRC. Bruce, you
          know the sketch I'm talking about? Anyone? (I always call on Bruce first cuz
          he seems to have page numbers and titles at his fingertips all the time!!!)”

           

          I think I remember this passage, and remember thinking at the time that JRRT’s WW I experience must have gone into the conception.

           

          Bruce A. Wilson, M.Ed., M.S.L.S.

          Reference Librarian, W.Va. State Law Library

          304-558-2607 (direct dial: 304-340-3980)

          FAX: 304-558-3673

           

          The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green

           

        • Rob
          ME: I always wanted deeper detail, a closer look in on this fight. AFAIK the only place this happens is in a sketch in one of the HoME series... I recall a
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 1, 2007
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            ME: "I always wanted deeper detail, a closer look in on this fight. AFAIK
            the
            only place this happens is in a sketch in one of the HoME series... I recall
            a battle of evil monsters and tank-like machines>>

            BRUCE: I think I remember this passage, and remember thinking at the time
            that JRRT's WW I experience must have gone into the conception.

            ----------------------------------------------------------

            Definitely. It has a real feel of being an amalgam of Tolkien's fantasy
            world being directly influenced by his recent, real-life events. The
            fantastic machines soon disappeared, but thee terrible monsters (dragons,
            monsters who spit poison gas, etc.) just grew into something else. You can
            see the WWI influence in the tanks and poison gas.

            Rob
          • Rob
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 1, 2007
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              <<Anent the Eagles, JRRT is very big on the autonomy of 'Free' peoples
              (Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits), so he doesn't have divine agents intervene
              until/unless his characters have done everything in their power to solve
              their own problems.>>

              I agree with Matt, though, that the eagles are a tricky device because they
              could easily solve so many problems, but they don't, but then they do show
              up as a deus ex machina when needed.

              I suspect, however, that if JRR had gotten around to final revisions the
              eagles would have played a smaller part in the Silmarillion. There are a
              number of ideas that JRR used in the Silm that he reused in the LotR such
              that a revised Silm would have had to either have repeats in it, or be
              revised to a different conception.

              Rob
            • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
              I suppose that we can forgive Thorondor s tardiness. He probably spotted Fingolfin banging on the gates and took wing to aid him. In the time it took him to
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 1, 2007
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                I suppose that we can forgive Thorondor's tardiness. He probably spotted
                Fingolfin banging on the gates and took wing to aid him. In the time it took him
                to fly the several hundred kilometers from Gondolin to Angband, Melkor had
                already defeated Fingolfin.

                Matt West


                Quoting Rob <fredwestermeyer@...>:

                > <<Anent the Eagles, JRRT is very big on the autonomy of 'Free' peoples
                > (Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits), so he doesn't have divine agents intervene
                > until/unless his characters have done everything in their power to solve
                > their own problems.>>
                >
                > I agree with Matt, though, that the eagles are a tricky device because they
                > could easily solve so many problems, but they don't, but then they do show
                > up as a deus ex machina when needed.
                >
                > I suspect, however, that if JRR had gotten around to final revisions the
                > eagles would have played a smaller part in the Silmarillion. There are a
                > number of ideas that JRR used in the Silm that he reused in the LotR such
                > that a revised Silm would have had to either have repeats in it, or be
                > revised to a different conception.
                >
                > Rob
                >
                >
                >





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              • Paul Westermeyer
                ... Tolkien is very careful not to explain how magic works within Middle Earth. The implication is that Morgoth s ability to twist the Earth and control
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 3, 2007
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                  >Posted by: "tea_party@..." tea_party@... uncutray
                  >There is great imagery here with Fingolfin pounding on the gates of Angband and calling Melkor to come out and fight. What strikes me as strange is that Melkor is a demi-god in corporeal form, but we know that he has the power to shape the land and cause volcanic eruptions and the like. How is it that there is any contest at all between him and Fingolfin? Why doesn't he just open up the Earth and swallow Fingolfin? Why doesn't he blast him with lightning? Why can't he swing his hammer faster? How can Fingolfin wound him? Why doesn't he have magic powers to defend against Fingolfin's sword?

                  Tolkien is very careful not to explain how 'magic' works within Middle Earth. The implication is that Morgoth's ability to twist the Earth and control weather is a slow power, not something he can summon at will and wield like a spear.

                  And Fingolfin's ability to duel him even this long is indictative of two things. One, that Fingolfin, second son of Finwe, a Nolder born in Aman before the destruction of the Trees is great indeed, a match even for some Maia (the Nolder face Balrogs several times). Second, it highlights how far Melkor has fallen. He is trapped in his warlord form, and has spread his power amongst his servants. He has so fallen from his previous glory as the greatest of the Vala, blessed by Eru, that the Greatest of the children of Iluvater can threaten him.

                  >The Eagles make two appearances in this chapter. First to scratch Melkor in the face and "rescue" the body of Fingolfin, and second to act as taxis for Hurin and Huor.
                  >
                  >Why didn't Thorondor get in there and help Fingolfin take out Melkor, rather
                  >than wait around for Melkor to crush Fingolfin, then slip in? The behaviour of
                  >the Eagles is very strange and often illogical. JRRT should either use them
                  >well, or dispose of them as a device.

                  By this point in the Simarillion the Eagles have been explained, they are the servants of Manwe, Lord of Arda. The Noldor are rebels against Manwe, and suffer still at this point onder the Doom of Mandos. Manwe's Eagles will not aid them directly against Melkor, but act instead to lessen the pain of defeat (honoring Fingolfin for his courage by rescuing his body from Melkor) or furthering the deep aims of Iluvater and Manwe (and the Music) by entwining Men and elves (rescuing Hurin and Huor).

                  >Sauron comes back and begins to have influence over events. He takes over Tol
                  >Sirion and makes it his watch tower against the Elves. We find out that he is
                  >the master of werewolves--the use of werewolves just seems so cheesy. I guess
                  >they are an example of what Sauron is capable of in misshaping the creations of Eru. We get hints that he is becoming the Necromancer that we read about in 'The Hobbit' and 'LotR'.

                  Tolkien's werewolves are the not the creatures of Lon Chaney and Hammer Films, but rather the creature of ancient Norse mythology.



                  --
                  "...How shall a man judge what to do in such times?!"
                  "As he has ever judged," said Aragorn "Good and evil have not changed since yesteryear..."
                  J.R.R. Tolkien, _The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers_

                  Paul Westermeyer, westermeyer@...
                • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
                  Paul, Thanks for the elucidation. It s nice to get some clarity on ideas that I am rolling around in my head from someone more learned in these things. Do you
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 4, 2007
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                    Paul,

                    Thanks for the elucidation. It's nice to get some clarity on ideas that I am
                    rolling around in my head from someone more learned in these things.

                    Do you have a good reference for Norse werewolves?

                    Matt West


                    Quoting Paul Westermeyer <westermeyer@...>:

                    > >Posted by: "tea_party@..." tea_party@... uncutray
                    > >There is great imagery here with Fingolfin pounding on the gates of Angband
                    > and calling Melkor to come out and fight. What strikes me as strange is that
                    > Melkor is a demi-god in corporeal form, but we know that he has the power to
                    > shape the land and cause volcanic eruptions and the like. How is it that
                    > there is any contest at all between him and Fingolfin? Why doesn't he just
                    > open up the Earth and swallow Fingolfin? Why doesn't he blast him with
                    > lightning? Why can't he swing his hammer faster? How can Fingolfin wound him?
                    > Why doesn't he have magic powers to defend against Fingolfin's sword?
                    >
                    > Tolkien is very careful not to explain how 'magic' works within Middle Earth.
                    > The implication is that Morgoth's ability to twist the Earth and control
                    > weather is a slow power, not something he can summon at will and wield like a
                    > spear.
                    >
                    > And Fingolfin's ability to duel him even this long is indictative of two
                    > things. One, that Fingolfin, second son of Finwe, a Nolder born in Aman
                    > before the destruction of the Trees is great indeed, a match even for some
                    > Maia (the Nolder face Balrogs several times). Second, it highlights how far
                    > Melkor has fallen. He is trapped in his warlord form, and has spread his
                    > power amongst his servants. He has so fallen from his previous glory as the
                    > greatest of the Vala, blessed by Eru, that the Greatest of the children of
                    > Iluvater can threaten him.
                    >
                    > >The Eagles make two appearances in this chapter. First to scratch Melkor in
                    > the face and "rescue" the body of Fingolfin, and second to act as taxis for
                    > Hurin and Huor.
                    > >
                    > >Why didn't Thorondor get in there and help Fingolfin take out Melkor,
                    > rather
                    > >than wait around for Melkor to crush Fingolfin, then slip in? The behaviour
                    > of
                    > >the Eagles is very strange and often illogical. JRRT should either use them
                    > >well, or dispose of them as a device.
                    >
                    > By this point in the Simarillion the Eagles have been explained, they are the
                    > servants of Manwe, Lord of Arda. The Noldor are rebels against Manwe, and
                    > suffer still at this point onder the Doom of Mandos. Manwe's Eagles will not
                    > aid them directly against Melkor, but act instead to lessen the pain of
                    > defeat (honoring Fingolfin for his courage by rescuing his body from Melkor)
                    > or furthering the deep aims of Iluvater and Manwe (and the Music) by
                    > entwining Men and elves (rescuing Hurin and Huor).
                    >
                    > >Sauron comes back and begins to have influence over events. He takes over
                    > Tol
                    > >Sirion and makes it his watch tower against the Elves. We find out that he
                    > is
                    > >the master of werewolves--the use of werewolves just seems so cheesy. I
                    > guess
                    > >they are an example of what Sauron is capable of in misshaping the creations
                    > of Eru. We get hints that he is becoming the Necromancer that we read about
                    > in 'The Hobbit' and 'LotR'.
                    >
                    > Tolkien's werewolves are the not the creatures of Lon Chaney and Hammer
                    > Films, but rather the creature of ancient Norse mythology.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > "...How shall a man judge what to do in such times?!"
                    > "As he has ever judged," said Aragorn "Good and evil have not changed since
                    > yesteryear..."
                    > J.R.R. Tolkien, _The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers_
                    >
                    > Paul Westermeyer, westermeyer@...
                    >





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                  • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
                    ... Maybe CT could do a brain dump to his son Adam who could then take the useful material from HoME and The Silmarillion and flesh it out to a proper novel.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 4, 2007
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                      Quoting Rob <fredwestermeyer@...>:

                      > <<We'll never know, really, because their conception died with JRRT.>>
                      >
                      > I still believe that if CT wished to he could re-edit some material that is
                      > in the HoME series and bring it in-line with a Silmarillion proper. It would
                      > involve him doing some writing, though, which he seems loathe to do beyond a
                      > few periods and sentences. It would be a massive undertaking, really. But
                      > now that "Hurin" is out, what is left him?

                      Maybe CT could do a brain dump to his son Adam who could then take the useful
                      material from HoME and The Silmarillion and flesh it out to a proper novel. Adam
                      is young enough that he could probably handle the task.


                      > Granted he needs do nothing, ever, and he is still set for life as are
                      > everyone in his extended family AND he is like 85 years old, but... his life
                      > has been one of shadowing his father's work. And he's done everything I can
                      > think of. Somehow I doubt he'll ever actually do the re-edited Silmarillion
                      > he has spoken of, though. Or worse, he WILL get to it then pass away before
                      > finishing thereby completing the circle from father to son!

                      Precisely. CT is not a good candidate for taking on the task. He has laid the
                      groundwork for one of the grandchildren to take over.


                      > I'd like to see more of the later life of Feanor and a better death. He just
                      > fades away to fast and to irrelevantly.

                      I wonder if the way he is essentially wiped away upon his arrival in
                      Middle-earth was not JRRT's intent. In war and life, sometimes great people die
                      trivial deaths, although their loss is not so trivial.


                      > Cirdan, as I said, is important, but he's always on the periphery and rarely
                      > "on stage." He's rather like the dwarves in the War of the Ring. We are told
                      > they're doing something and it is important, but we never see it.

                      Yes. He is intriguing. As are his people. What are they like? What did they
                      accomplish? They must not have been too insular if they know what was going on
                      with the various battles.


                      > We see lots of Turgon, but I'd like to see more of him before Gondolin so we
                      > can see why he is chosen to do this, why he does it, etc.

                      Yes. More of his history, his interactivity with his family and friends would be
                      very nice.


                      > I am fine with only glimpses of Galadriel in the Silm simply because we do
                      > see her plenty in lotR, so it balances out.

                      I suppose, but the founding of Lothlorien would be cool to read about in detail.


                      > CT did the best he could, I guess, at the time. But so much more has come
                      > out since then I do think the overall tale of the silmarils deserves a
                      > "re-do."

                      Agreed. The HoME series was not all that interesting except from an academic
                      point of view. I've read a couple of books, but just don't find them all that
                      captivating. They are even less cohesive and consistent with LotR than the
                      Silmarillion.

                      I have yet to read any FanFic that is of the calibre of LotR and The Sil. It
                      seems there are few who are interested in Tolkien who are capable of following
                      in his footsteps.

                      Matt West




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                    • whiteladyofrohan@aol.com
                      In a message dated 5/31/2007 2:27:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tea_party@ourbrisbane.com writes: There is great imagery here with Fingolfin pounding on the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 4, 2007
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                        In a message dated 5/31/2007 2:27:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tea_party@... writes:
                        There is great imagery here with Fingolfin pounding on the gates of Angband and
                        calling Melkor to come out and fight. What strikes me as strange is that Melkor
                        is a demi-god in corporeal form, but we know that he has the power to shape the
                        land and cause volcanic eruptions and the like. How is it that there is any
                        contest at all between him and Fingolfin? Why doesn't he just open up the Earth
                        and swallow Fingolfin? Why doesn't he blast him with lightning? Why can't he
                        swing his hammer faster? How can Fingolfin wound him? Why doesn't he have magic
                        powers to defend against Fingolfin's sword?

                        The Eagles make two appearances in this chapter. First to scratch Melkor in the
                        face and "rescue" the body of Fingolfin, and second to act as taxis for Hurin
                        and Huor.

                        Why didn't Thorondor get in there and help Fingolfin take out Melkor, rather
                        than wait around for Melkor to crush Fingolfin, then slip in? The behaviour of
                        the Eagles is very strange and often illogical. JRRT should either use them
                        well, or dispose of them as a device.
                        I have a bigger problem with Melkor (isn't he Morgoth now?) not just flicking Fingolfin like a gnat (as you noted) than with Thorondor grabbing Fingolfin's body and scratching Melkor's face.  I think, in the latter scene, Melkor was just taken by surprise; Thorondor would not have been able to help Fingolfin much, in the fight; an army of men and elves wouldn't have helped!  Plus, it would have been less than honorable to do so since Fingolfin had asked to fight Melkor mano a mano, so to speak, and allowing Thorondor to get in the middle, would have been ignoble. 
                         
                        ~Debbie
                         
                         




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                      • whiteladyofrohan@aol.com
                        In a message dated 5/31/2007 2:27:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tea_party@ourbrisbane.com writes: We are also reminded of how bitter Maeglin is, and he is
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 4, 2007
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                          In a message dated 5/31/2007 2:27:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tea_party@... writes:
                          We are also reminded of how bitter Maeglin is, and he
                          is given reason to resent Hurin, Huor, and any of their descendents. ....
                          Remind me why this is?  This is why I always have trouble with this book; I can never keep the facts and names straight.  <sigh>
                           
                          ~Debbie
                           




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                        • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
                          Maeglin is bitter because of his virtual imprisonment in Gondolin; and because of the death of his father, Eol, and mother, Aredhel, resulting from Turgon s
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 4, 2007
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                            Maeglin is bitter because of his virtual imprisonment in Gondolin; and because
                            of the death of his father, Eol, and mother, Aredhel, resulting from Turgon's
                            rules about no one leaving Gondolin who knows the way in; and because he is
                            spurned by Idril, Turgon's daughter.

                            He resents Hurin and Huor because they are allowed the freedom that he and his
                            mother were denied. He will resent Huor's son Tuor even MORE in a few chatper's
                            time!

                            <<<<<<WARNING, THE FOLLOWING LINK CONTAINS SPOILERS>>>>>>>

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeglin

                            Matt West



                            Quoting whiteladyofrohan@...:

                            >
                            >
                            > In a message dated 5/31/2007 2:27:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                            > tea_party@... writes:
                            >
                            > We are also reminded of how bitter Maeglin is, and he
                            > is given reason to resent Hurin, Huor, and any of their descendents.is g
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Remind me why this is? This is why I always have trouble with this book; I
                            >
                            > can never keep the facts and names straight. <sigh>
                            >
                            > ~Debbie
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ************************************** See what's free at
                            > http://www.aol.com
                            >





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                          • whiteladyofrohan@aol.com
                            Matt, it was the part about Maeglin s resentment of Hurin and Huor that I didn t get. Thanks for the clarification. ~Debbie In a message dated 6/4/2007
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 4, 2007
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                              Matt, it was the part about Maeglin's resentment of Hurin and Huor that I didn't get.  Thanks for the clarification.
                               
                              ~Debbie
                               
                               
                              In a message dated 6/4/2007 1:18:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tea_party@... writes:
                              Maeglin is bitter because of his virtual imprisonment in Gondolin; and because
                              of the death of his father, Eol, and mother, Aredhel, resulting from Turgon's
                              rules about no one leaving Gondolin who knows the way in; and because he is
                              spurned by Idril, Turgon's daughter.

                              He resents Hurin and Huor because they are allowed the freedom that he and his
                              mother were denied. He will resent Huor's son Tuor even MORE in a few chatper's
                              time!




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                            • Rob
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                <<Maeglin is bitter because of his virtual imprisonment in Gondolin; and
                                because of the death of his father, Eol, and mother, Aredhel, resulting from
                                Turgon's rules about no one leaving Gondolin who knows the way in; and... He
                                resents Hurin and Huor because they are allowed the freedom that he and his
                                mother were denied. He will resent Huor's son Tuor even MORE in a few
                                chatper's time!>>

                                I think Maeglin is justifiably angry at this sometimes yes, sometimes no
                                policy of Turgon's.

                                First, Turgon's policy that basically entraps elves to living in his city is
                                basically unsupportable, IMO. You can not imprison free peoples and a policy
                                which advocates this is doomed to fail at some point. Besides just being
                                morally iffy, it is not sustainable.

                                Second, if you DO have such a policy, you can't pick and choose to whom it
                                applies. Can Turgon himself leave the city? Can his royal family? Certainly
                                his spies would be able to leave, right, to gather intelligence? Regardless
                                of all that, Turgon makes a big mistake in letting Hurin and Huor go when he
                                has gone to such extremes with Eol and Maeglin. Turgon should not have
                                pushed his policy so far when push came to shove with Eol, and when he did,
                                he locked himself into a certain mode of enforcement that he should not have
                                changed for the men.

                                Maeglin is justifiably angry that Turgon allowed his father to be killed
                                while he lets the men go. And Turgon is a fool for not being able to
                                understand that his actions have sown in Maeglin the seeds of anger and
                                evil.

                                Rob
                              • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
                                ... Agreed. Turgon is (justifiably) paranoid. ... The Elves have to be there of their own free will. Before entering the city, they should have to agree that
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 5, 2007
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                                  Quoting Rob <fredwestermeyer@...>:

                                  > <<Maeglin is bitter because of his virtual imprisonment in Gondolin; and
                                  > because of the death of his father, Eol, and mother, Aredhel, resulting from
                                  > Turgon's rules about no one leaving Gondolin who knows the way in; and... He
                                  > resents Hurin and Huor because they are allowed the freedom that he and his
                                  > mother were denied. He will resent Huor's son Tuor even MORE in a few
                                  > chatper's time!>>
                                  >
                                  > I think Maeglin is justifiably angry at this sometimes yes, sometimes no
                                  > policy of Turgon's.

                                  Agreed.

                                  Turgon is (justifiably) paranoid.


                                  > First, Turgon's policy that basically entraps elves to living in his city is
                                  > basically unsupportable, IMO. You can not imprison free peoples and a policy
                                  > which advocates this is doomed to fail at some point. Besides just being
                                  > morally iffy, it is not sustainable.

                                  The Elves have to be there of their own free will. Before entering the city,
                                  they should have to agree that this is what they want for their lives. If others
                                  arrive from the outside, they ALL have to be killed if they do not agree to
                                  remain in the city. Still, such policies are unsustainable, that is true.

                                  The world outside of Gondolin is a wretched place. If Turgon's policy could
                                  work, it is certainly the best way to prevent destruction by Melkor. Ultimately,
                                  Turgon should not have left Valinor if he wanted to be sequestered from the
                                  influence of Melkor. Only in Valinor could he be safe. He is probably less free
                                  in Gondolin than he would have been in Valinor.


                                  > Second, if you DO have such a policy, you can't pick and choose to whom it
                                  > applies. Can Turgon himself leave the city? Can his royal family? Certainly
                                  > his spies would be able to leave, right, to gather intelligence?

                                  Turgon sent out spies, emissaries to Valinor, and his sister Aredhel. All of
                                  those individuals could have been captured by Melkor and enthralled. In letting
                                  those people out, he put Gondolin at risk from invasion. Also by letting those
                                  people out, he puts Gondolin at risk from within by those who would resent his
                                  policies ... such as the children of the Elves who had agreed to Turgon's
                                  policy. What choice in life do the offspring of the founders of Gondolin have?


                                  > Regardless
                                  > of all that, Turgon makes a big mistake in letting Hurin and Huor go when he
                                  > has gone to such extremes with Eol and Maeglin. Turgon should not have
                                  > pushed his policy so far when push came to shove with Eol, and when he did,
                                  > he locked himself into a certain mode of enforcement that he should not have
                                  > changed for the men.

                                  Big mistake, yes, but the doom of Noldor was upon him. It is his fate to
                                  ultimately fail.


                                  > Maeglin is justifiably angry that Turgon allowed his father to be killed
                                  > while he lets the men go. And Turgon is a fool for not being able to
                                  > understand that his actions have sown in Maeglin the seeds of anger and
                                  > evil.

                                  Agreed. We will soon see that resentment turn into action!

                                  Matt West




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                                • Rob
                                  Of course Turgon could have solved all his problems by just admitting his (personal, IMO) hatred of Maeglin and killing him. Everyone else seemed to be fine
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 5, 2007
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                                    Of course Turgon could have solved all his problems by just admitting his
                                    (personal, IMO) hatred of Maeglin and killing him. Everyone else seemed to
                                    be fine with Turgon's policy.

                                    Rob
                                  • Paul Westermeyer
                                    ... You ve got a good point, but the policy isn t _quite_ as arbitrary as it appears at first glance. Huor and Hurin _don t_ know the way to Gondolin, they
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 5, 2007
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                                      > Posted by: "Rob" fredwestermeyer@... cosmiccostello
                                      >I think Maeglin is justifiably angry at this sometimes yes, sometimes no
                                      >policy of Turgon's.
                                      >
                                      >First, Turgon's policy that basically entraps elves to living in his city is
                                      >basically unsupportable, IMO. You can not imprison free peoples and a policy
                                      >which advocates this is doomed to fail at some point. Besides just being
                                      >morally iffy, it is not sustainable.
                                      >
                                      >Second, if you DO have such a policy, you can't pick and choose to whom it
                                      >applies. Can Turgon himself leave the city? Can his royal family? Certainly
                                      >his spies would be able to leave, right, to gather intelligence? Regardless
                                      >of all that, Turgon makes a big mistake in letting Hurin and Huor go when he
                                      >has gone to such extremes with Eol and Maeglin. Turgon should not have
                                      >pushed his policy so far when push came to shove with Eol, and when he did,
                                      >he locked himself into a certain mode of enforcement that he should not have
                                      >changed for the men.
                                      >
                                      >Maeglin is justifiably angry that Turgon allowed his father to be killed
                                      >while he lets the men go. And Turgon is a fool for not being able to
                                      >understand that his actions have sown in Maeglin the seeds of anger and
                                      >evil.


                                      You've got a good point, but the policy isn't _quite_ as arbitrary as it appears at first glance. Huor and Hurin _don't_ know the way to Gondolin, they were brought to it by the eagles. And the Eagles, as mentioned are the servants of Manwe.

                                      Second, the elves do not remain in Gondolin indefinitely, because they are immortal they expect to leave eventually. Plus, of course, most elves are temperamentally suited to a certain level of stasis.

                                      But Huor and Hurin are human, and will age very swiftly by elven standards.

                                      So I think, ultimately, Maeglin's claim is false.



                                      --
                                      "...How shall a man judge what to do in such times?!"
                                      "As he has ever judged," said Aragorn "Good and evil have not changed since yesteryear..."
                                      J.R.R. Tolkien, _The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers_

                                      Paul Westermeyer, westermeyer@...
                                    • Gary Bellinger
                                      I think you re right and Turgon would probably have loved to smash Maeglin to bits. But haven t we all at some time wanted to smash someone to bits? The
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 7, 2007
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                                        I think you're right and Turgon would probably have loved to smash Maeglin
                                        to bits. But haven't we all at some time wanted to smash someone to bits?
                                        The problem being that we all have a conscience and thank God that feeling
                                        of conscience stops 99.99% of us. I think that same feeling of conscience
                                        held back Turgon here and he was caught in that damnable Catch-22.

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Rob" <fredwestermeyer@...>
                                        To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 4:00 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of
                                        Fingolfin


                                        > Of course Turgon could have solved all his problems by just admitting his
                                        > (personal, IMO) hatred of Maeglin and killing him. Everyone else seemed to
                                        > be fine with Turgon's policy.
                                        >
                                        > Rob
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                                        > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                                        > and Calendar sections.
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Paul Westermeyer
                                        ... Sorry for the slow reply! And thanks for the kind words. In this case, Wikipedia is a decent start. Also look up mythology websites. Also, take a look at
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 9, 2007
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                                          >1b. Re: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
                                          > Posted by: "tea_party@..." tea_party@... uncutray
                                          > Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 4:38 am ((PDT))
                                          >
                                          >Paul,
                                          >
                                          >Thanks for the elucidation. It's nice to get some clarity on ideas that I am
                                          >rolling around in my head from someone more learned in these things.
                                          >
                                          >Do you have a good reference for Norse werewolves?
                                          >
                                          >Matt West

                                          Sorry for the slow reply! And thanks for the kind words.

                                          In this case, Wikipedia is a decent start. Also look up mythology websites. Also, take a look at the Fenris wolf Norse myth, just about any good book on Norse mythology will discuss it.


                                          --
                                          "...How shall a man judge what to do in such times?!"
                                          "As he has ever judged," said Aragorn "Good and evil have not changed since yesteryear..."
                                          J.R.R. Tolkien, _The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers_

                                          Paul Westermeyer, westermeyer@...
                                        • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
                                          I remember learning about Fenris in mythology class in highschool (oh so long ago)--although I learned of him as Fenrir--but I never thought of him as a
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 10, 2007
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                                            I remember learning about "Fenris" in mythology class in highschool (oh so long
                                            ago)--although I learned of him as Fenrir--but I never thought of him as a
                                            werewolf. Anyway, I did follow your suggestions and have learned a great deal
                                            about werewolves! Thanks!

                                            Matt West




                                            Quoting Paul Westermeyer <westermeyer@...>:

                                            > >1b. Re: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
                                            > > Posted by: "tea_party@..." tea_party@...
                                            > uncutray
                                            > > Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 4:38 am ((PDT))
                                            > >
                                            > >Paul,
                                            > >
                                            > >Thanks for the elucidation. It's nice to get some clarity on ideas that I
                                            > am
                                            > >rolling around in my head from someone more learned in these things.
                                            > >
                                            > >Do you have a good reference for Norse werewolves?
                                            > >
                                            > >Matt West
                                            >
                                            > Sorry for the slow reply! And thanks for the kind words.
                                            >
                                            > In this case, Wikipedia is a decent start. Also look up mythology websites.
                                            > Also, take a look at the Fenris wolf Norse myth, just about any good book on
                                            > Norse mythology will discuss it.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > "...How shall a man judge what to do in such times?!"
                                            > "As he has ever judged," said Aragorn "Good and evil have not changed since
                                            > yesteryear..."
                                            > J.R.R. Tolkien, _The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers_
                                            >
                                            > Paul Westermeyer, westermeyer@...
                                            >





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