Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Of the Noldor in Beleriand

Expand Messages
  • Alkmaion
    One thing that always irritated me...when Tolkien tells of the power of Nargothrond he counts Finrod among the High Princes of the Noldor, the others being
    Message 1 of 18 , May 1, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      One thing that always irritated me...when Tolkien tells of the power
      of Nargothrond he counts Finrod among the 'High Princes' of the Noldor,
      the others being Fingolfin, Fingon and Maedhros.

      What´s so special about them...and why isn´t Turgon counted among them?

      Alkmaion
    • Peter Chapman
      Presumably because they were the first-born sons Pete Lord-of-Hawks ... From: Alkmaion To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 11:28
      Message 2 of 18 , May 1, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Presumably because they were the first-born sons
        Pete
        Lord-of-Hawks
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Alkmaion
        Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 11:28 AM
        Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Of the Noldor in Beleriand

        One thing that always irritated me...when Tolkien tells of the power
        of Nargothrond he counts Finrod among the 'High Princes' of the Noldor,
        the others being Fingolfin, Fingon and Maedhros.

        What´s so special about them...and why isn´t Turgon counted among them?

        Alkmaion



        Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
        of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
        and Calendar sections.
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
         
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/

        <*> Your email settings:
            Individual Email | Traditional

        <*> To change settings online go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/join
            (Yahoo! ID required)

        <*> To change settings via email:
            mailto:TolkienDiscussions-digest@yahoogroups.com
            mailto:TolkienDiscussions-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

        <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • Alkmaion
        But then Fingon should be missing too, with Fingolfin present Fingolfin(House Fingolfin) Maedhros(House Feanor) Finrod(House Finarfin, his father absent)
        Message 3 of 18 , May 1, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          But then Fingon should be missing too, with Fingolfin present

          Fingolfin(House Fingolfin)
          Maedhros(House Feanor)
          Finrod(House Finarfin, his father absent)

          > Presumably because they were the first-born sons
          > Pete
          > Lord-of-Hawks
        • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
          . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . Maybe it is because Turgon always lived outside of Elven
          Message 4 of 18 , May 1, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< SPOILERS >>>>>>>>>>>>>

            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            ..
            .



            Maybe it is because Turgon always lived outside of Elven society. Nevrast was
            far away from the other Elven realms. Turgon, like Cirdan, lived by the sea,
            which set him apart from the other Elves as well. Only Fingolfin's son Fingon
            seems to have distinguised himself among the Elves. Turgon and Aredhel both kept
            below the radar. Turgon snuck away to Gondolin from Nevrast without telling the
            other princes where he was going, and without offering to help them fight
            Melkor. In effect, he removed himself from History. He might not even be
            remembered, if it weren't for Tuor, his son-in-law, and Earendil, his grandson,
            both of whom are known for their great deeds.

            Matt West



            Quoting Alkmaion <minyer@...>:

            > One thing that always irritated me...when Tolkien tells of the power
            > of Nargothrond he counts Finrod among the 'High Princes' of the Noldor,
            > the others being Fingolfin, Fingon and Maedhros.
            >
            > What�s so special about them...and why isn�t Turgon counted among them?
            >
            > Alkmaion
            >
            >





            -------------------------------------------
            Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
          • Rob
            Honestly, I suspect that JRR would have revised this whole thing quite a bit had he ever gotten around to it. The royal families and their structures are
            Message 5 of 18 , May 1, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Honestly, I suspect that JRR would have revised this whole thing quite a bit had he ever gotten around to it. The royal families and their structures are confusing, IMO, and as you point out there does not seem to be a real rhyme or reason to it.
               
              Why are the rulers of various strongholds not mentioned more (Orodreth, for example) and how come various sons of Feanor just seem to disappear completely?

              I think Tolkien would have pared things down in a final revision, but that CT didn't feel that kind of freedom.
               
              JMO, of course.
               
              Rob
            • Rob
              . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. .
              Message 6 of 18 , May 1, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< SPOILERS >>>>>>>>>>>>>

                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                ..
                .

                <<Maybe it is because Turgon always lived outside of Elven society. Nevrast
                was
                far away from the other Elven realms. Turgon, like Cirdan, lived by the sea,
                which set him apart from the other Elves as well.>>

                There you go - another supposedly important elf that we know almost nothing
                about. Cirdan. He was important enough to garner an elven ring, but we know
                little of his story and never really see him on camera at all.

                It just seems to me that the whole power structure was not completely worked
                out in JRR's head yet by the time he stopped composing. So CT did the best
                he could, but his efforts are, ultimately, unsatisfying.

                There is too much and not enough all at the same time, so to speak. Too many
                elven lords, princes, etc., and not enough about all of them. They all sort
                of get lost in the background of the trees instead of being individual
                leaves.

                Rob
              • Alkmaion
                An interesting idea...thanks, I´ll try to apply that to something. Just a hunch I have... Later Alkmaion ... Nevrast was ... the sea, ... son Fingon ...
                Message 7 of 18 , May 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  An interesting idea...thanks, I´ll try to apply that to something.
                  Just a hunch I have...

                  Later

                  Alkmaion





                  > Maybe it is because Turgon always lived outside of Elven society.
                  Nevrast was
                  > far away from the other Elven realms. Turgon, like Cirdan, lived by
                  the sea,
                  > which set him apart from the other Elves as well. Only Fingolfin's
                  son Fingon
                  > seems to have distinguised himself among the Elves. Turgon and
                  Aredhel both kept
                  > below the radar. Turgon snuck away to Gondolin from Nevrast without
                  telling the
                  > other princes where he was going, and without offering to help them
                  fight
                  > Melkor. In effect, he removed himself from History. He might not
                  even be
                  > remembered, if it weren't for Tuor, his son-in-law, and Earendil,
                  his grandson,
                  > both of whom are known for their great deeds.
                  >
                  > Matt West
                • Alkmaion
                  Yeah, although I have to say that this is a fic writer´s delight. Many white areas to fill up... ... Nicely worded *smile*
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 2, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yeah, although I have to say that this is a fic writer´s delight.
                    Many white areas to fill up...


                    > They all sort of get lost in the background of the trees instead of
                    > being individual leaves.
                    >
                    > Rob

                    Nicely worded *smile*
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.