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Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Of the Noldor in Beleriand

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  • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
    The Valar continue to meddle in the affairs of the Elves. Ulmo shows favour to Turgon and his people by guiding them to Gondolin.
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 30, 2007
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      <<<< SPOILERS >>>>>>>>>>>>>























      The Valar continue to meddle in the affairs of the Elves. Ulmo shows favour to
      Turgon and his people by guiding them to Gondolin. However, he must have known
      that they will be wiped out there when Melkor finally finds Gondolin. Perhaps
      Ulmo would have be better to lead them somewhere else--an island, a land in the
      far South. Ultimately, I guess, Ulmo could do nothing because of the curse on
      the Noldor and the Doom of Mandos--things over which he had no control.

      Still, by his actions with Turgon, and later with Tuor, son of Huor and cousin
      to Túrin Turambar, Ulmo sets in motion events that will lead to the conquest of
      Melkor by the Valar, and also the birth of Elrond and Elros and the rise of the
      line that will lead to Aragorn and the destruction of the second and last evil lord.


      Melian, too, meddles by prying from Galadriel the truth about the
      Noldor--although she did as much as guess it. Melian will continue to influence
      the affairs of the Elves in Doriath and beyond.

      Matt West



      Quoting tea_party@...:

      > After a brief recap following the Geography lesson from last week, we are
      > thrown
      > back into the action. We see the Doom of Mandos continue to play out, and
      > the
      > curse of the Noldor bearing more fruit:
      >
      > -Following Ulmo, Turgon leaves Nevrast for the hidden vale of Tumladen, a
      > place
      > known only to the Eagles of Thorondor. Turgon follows an underground river
      > to
      > the green plain with its island hill. Turgon resolves to build a great city
      > here. He returns to Nevrast to plan a way to accomplish this goal.
      >
      > -Turgon secrets away his hardiest and most skilled people to build his city.
      > Turgon remains in Nevrast until the work is done. He names the city
      > Ondolinde,
      > but it becomes known as Gondolin (the Hidden Rock).
      >
      > -As Turgon prepares to set out, Ulmo appears and vows to protect him on his
      > journey, but warns that his city will not stand forever, and reminds him
      > that
      > his true hope lies in the West. He also reminds Turgon that he is under the
      > curse of the Noldor and must follow the Doom of Mandos, and that treason
      > will
      > awaken within his walls. Ulmos says that he will send someone to warn him,
      > and
      > from that person shall be born a hope for Elves and Men (meaning Eärendil
      > and,
      > ultimately, Aragorn Elessar).
      >
      > -Ulmo tells Turgon to leave a sword and arms so that he will know Ulmo's
      > messenger when he comes, and so that he will not be deceived by false
      > messengers.
      >
      > -Turgon secretly leads a huge host, company by company, to Gondolin. There,
      > the
      > people grow and thrive and continue to build and expand Gondolin, making it
      > ever
      > greater.
      >
      > -Turgon's daughter, Idril, is the fairest of the fair in Gondolin (of
      > course).
      > She is called Celebrindal (silver foot). Her hair is as gold as the light of
      > Laurelin before the coming of Melkor.
      >
      > -After Turgon abandons it, Nevrast remains empty and desolate.
      >
      > -Meanwhile, back in Doriath, in her conversations with Galadriel, Melian
      > devines
      > that some woe lies upon Galadriel and her kin. Valinor is now hidden from
      > Melian
      > and from the world. Melian does not believe that the Noldor were sent by the
      > Valar, for they never speak of the Valar, nor have they brought messages
      > from
      > Thingol's brother, Olwe. She perceives that the Noldor were driven out as
      > exiles. She guesses that there is an evil lying on the sons of Feanor.
      >
      > -Galadriel tells Melian that he Noldor came of their own free will, but
      > against
      > the will of the Valar, in order that they might take vengeance on Melkor.
      > Galadriel tells Melian of the Silmarils and the slaying of Finwe, but not of
      > the
      > Oath nor the kinslaying, nor the ship burning.
      >
      > -Melian guesses that some great evil transpired on the road from Tirion, but
      > Galadriel will not divulge it.
      >
      > -Melian tells Thingol of the Silmarils. She knows that the light of Aman and
      > the
      > fate of Arda lie in the works of Feanor. She foretells that they will not be
      > recovered by the Eldar.
      >
      > -Melian recognizes that the shadow of the wrath of the Valar lies on the sons
      > of
      > Feanor. She perceives that they have done evil. Thingol sees this as his new
      > and
      > greatest ally against Melkor.
      >
      > -Melkor begins to spread exaggerated tales of the Noldor among the Sindar.
      > Cirdan sends word of the tales to Thingol just as Thingol is receiving the
      > sons
      > of Finarfin as his guests. Thingol speaks angrily to Finrod because he had
      > been
      > involved in the slaying of his own mother's kin as well as the kin of
      > Thingol,
      > through Olwe, his brother.
      >
      > -Finrod holds his tongue, lest he speak against the other princes of the
      > Noldor.
      > But, Angrod throws all the blame on Feanor and his sons, claiming that it
      > was
      > folly to follow them. he then proceeds to tell of the kinslying, the Doom of
      > Mandos, and the burning of the ships as it actually happened, to counter the
      > tales spread by Melkor. He also told of how the house of Fingolfin endured
      > the
      > grinding ice.
      >
      > -Melian points out that the shadow of Mandos is upon them as well as the sons
      > of
      > Feanor.
      >
      > -Thingol throws them out until he can calm himself. He declares that he will
      > befriend Fingolfin's people; however, he bans the tongue of the Noldor
      > forever
      > from all his lands and people. And so, the High Speech of the West was
      > spoken
      > only among the lords of the Nolodr. All others learned the Sindarin Tongue,
      > lest
      > they be shunned.
      >
      > -Finrod swears an Oath that he will not marry and have a child, for he knows
      > that his kingdom will not endure for a son to inherit. He knows that soon
      > Nargothrond will be destroyed, even though it is newly wrought. He had left
      > behind his true love, Amarie, a Vanyar, who did not go with him into exile.
      >
      > Matt West
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -------------------------------------------
      > Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
      >
      >





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    • Alkmaion
      One thing that always irritated me...when Tolkien tells of the power of Nargothrond he counts Finrod among the High Princes of the Noldor, the others being
      Message 2 of 18 , May 1, 2007
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        One thing that always irritated me...when Tolkien tells of the power
        of Nargothrond he counts Finrod among the 'High Princes' of the Noldor,
        the others being Fingolfin, Fingon and Maedhros.

        What´s so special about them...and why isn´t Turgon counted among them?

        Alkmaion
      • Peter Chapman
        Presumably because they were the first-born sons Pete Lord-of-Hawks ... From: Alkmaion To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 11:28
        Message 3 of 18 , May 1, 2007
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          Presumably because they were the first-born sons
          Pete
          Lord-of-Hawks
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Alkmaion
          Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 11:28 AM
          Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Of the Noldor in Beleriand

          One thing that always irritated me...when Tolkien tells of the power
          of Nargothrond he counts Finrod among the 'High Princes' of the Noldor,
          the others being Fingolfin, Fingon and Maedhros.

          What´s so special about them...and why isn´t Turgon counted among them?

          Alkmaion



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        • Alkmaion
          But then Fingon should be missing too, with Fingolfin present Fingolfin(House Fingolfin) Maedhros(House Feanor) Finrod(House Finarfin, his father absent)
          Message 4 of 18 , May 1, 2007
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            But then Fingon should be missing too, with Fingolfin present

            Fingolfin(House Fingolfin)
            Maedhros(House Feanor)
            Finrod(House Finarfin, his father absent)

            > Presumably because they were the first-born sons
            > Pete
            > Lord-of-Hawks
          • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
            . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . Maybe it is because Turgon always lived outside of Elven
            Message 5 of 18 , May 1, 2007
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              <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< SPOILERS >>>>>>>>>>>>>

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              Maybe it is because Turgon always lived outside of Elven society. Nevrast was
              far away from the other Elven realms. Turgon, like Cirdan, lived by the sea,
              which set him apart from the other Elves as well. Only Fingolfin's son Fingon
              seems to have distinguised himself among the Elves. Turgon and Aredhel both kept
              below the radar. Turgon snuck away to Gondolin from Nevrast without telling the
              other princes where he was going, and without offering to help them fight
              Melkor. In effect, he removed himself from History. He might not even be
              remembered, if it weren't for Tuor, his son-in-law, and Earendil, his grandson,
              both of whom are known for their great deeds.

              Matt West



              Quoting Alkmaion <minyer@...>:

              > One thing that always irritated me...when Tolkien tells of the power
              > of Nargothrond he counts Finrod among the 'High Princes' of the Noldor,
              > the others being Fingolfin, Fingon and Maedhros.
              >
              > What�s so special about them...and why isn�t Turgon counted among them?
              >
              > Alkmaion
              >
              >





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            • Rob
              Honestly, I suspect that JRR would have revised this whole thing quite a bit had he ever gotten around to it. The royal families and their structures are
              Message 6 of 18 , May 1, 2007
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                Honestly, I suspect that JRR would have revised this whole thing quite a bit had he ever gotten around to it. The royal families and their structures are confusing, IMO, and as you point out there does not seem to be a real rhyme or reason to it.
                 
                Why are the rulers of various strongholds not mentioned more (Orodreth, for example) and how come various sons of Feanor just seem to disappear completely?

                I think Tolkien would have pared things down in a final revision, but that CT didn't feel that kind of freedom.
                 
                JMO, of course.
                 
                Rob
              • Rob
                . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. .
                Message 7 of 18 , May 1, 2007
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                  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< SPOILERS >>>>>>>>>>>>>

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                  <<Maybe it is because Turgon always lived outside of Elven society. Nevrast
                  was
                  far away from the other Elven realms. Turgon, like Cirdan, lived by the sea,
                  which set him apart from the other Elves as well.>>

                  There you go - another supposedly important elf that we know almost nothing
                  about. Cirdan. He was important enough to garner an elven ring, but we know
                  little of his story and never really see him on camera at all.

                  It just seems to me that the whole power structure was not completely worked
                  out in JRR's head yet by the time he stopped composing. So CT did the best
                  he could, but his efforts are, ultimately, unsatisfying.

                  There is too much and not enough all at the same time, so to speak. Too many
                  elven lords, princes, etc., and not enough about all of them. They all sort
                  of get lost in the background of the trees instead of being individual
                  leaves.

                  Rob
                • Alkmaion
                  An interesting idea...thanks, I´ll try to apply that to something. Just a hunch I have... Later Alkmaion ... Nevrast was ... the sea, ... son Fingon ...
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 2, 2007
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                    An interesting idea...thanks, I´ll try to apply that to something.
                    Just a hunch I have...

                    Later

                    Alkmaion





                    > Maybe it is because Turgon always lived outside of Elven society.
                    Nevrast was
                    > far away from the other Elven realms. Turgon, like Cirdan, lived by
                    the sea,
                    > which set him apart from the other Elves as well. Only Fingolfin's
                    son Fingon
                    > seems to have distinguised himself among the Elves. Turgon and
                    Aredhel both kept
                    > below the radar. Turgon snuck away to Gondolin from Nevrast without
                    telling the
                    > other princes where he was going, and without offering to help them
                    fight
                    > Melkor. In effect, he removed himself from History. He might not
                    even be
                    > remembered, if it weren't for Tuor, his son-in-law, and Earendil,
                    his grandson,
                    > both of whom are known for their great deeds.
                    >
                    > Matt West
                  • Alkmaion
                    Yeah, although I have to say that this is a fic writer´s delight. Many white areas to fill up... ... Nicely worded *smile*
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 2, 2007
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                      Yeah, although I have to say that this is a fic writer´s delight.
                      Many white areas to fill up...


                      > They all sort of get lost in the background of the trees instead of
                      > being individual leaves.
                      >
                      > Rob

                      Nicely worded *smile*
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