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Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

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  • Matt
    Hey everyone, I m sorry that my notes for this week s chapter are going to be a bit late! My wife has had pneumonia for a week, my daughter has had a fever for
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 5, 2007
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      Hey everyone,

      I'm sorry that my notes for this week's chapter are going to be a bit
      late! My wife has had pneumonia for a week, my daughter has had a
      fever for 8 days and can't stop coughing, I am starting to catch
      whatever they have got, and it's <8 days until my books go to
      production for publication!

      I will try my very best to get my notes typed up before the end of the
      week!!

      With apologies,

      Matt West
    • Kathy Main
      I ve had a cough that won t go away for about a week now. It s driving me nuts! I think I ll have to go to the doctor eventually, darn it! I hope you all get
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 5, 2007
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        I've had a cough that won't go away for about a week now. It's driving me nuts! I think I'll have to go to the doctor eventually, darn it! I hope you all get better soon! hugs, Kathy

        Matt <tea_party@...> wrote:
        Hey everyone,

        I'm sorry that my notes for this week's chapter are going to be a bit
        late! My wife has had pneumonia for a week, my daughter has had a
        fever for 8 days and can't stop coughing, I am starting to catch
        whatever they have got, and it's <8 days until my books go to
        production for publication!

        I will try my very best to get my notes typed up before the end of the
        week!!

        With apologies,

        Matt West




        Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

      • Jack
        Sorry you re poorly - get well soon! ... Jack _____ From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 5, 2007
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          Sorry you’re poorly – get well soon!

           

          :o)

          Jack

           


          From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Matt
          Sent: 06 March 2007 01:51
          To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

           

          Hey everyone,

          I'm sorry that my notes for this week's chapter are going to be a bit
          late! My wife has had pneumonia for a week, my daughter has had a
          fever for 8 days and can't stop coughing, I am starting to catch
          whatever they have got, and it's <8 days until my books go to
          production for publication!

          I will try my very best to get my notes typed up before the end of the
          week!!

          With apologies,

          Matt West

        • Pippin
          Matt, Matt, Matt--enough with the family, work, illness stuff. Where ARE your priorities? People, elves, wizards, and hobbits are waiting on your notes! OK
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 6, 2007
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            Matt, Matt, Matt--enough with the family, work, illness stuff. Where ARE
            your priorities? People, elves, wizards, and hobbits are waiting on your
            notes!

            OK
            OK
            Just kidding
            Do what you need to do.
            Get well (all of you) SOON.

            Pippin

            > [Original Message]
            > I'm sorry that my notes for this week's chapter are going to be a bit
            > late! My wife has had pneumonia for a week, my daughter has had a
            > fever for 8 days and can't stop coughing, I am starting to catch
            > whatever they have got, and it's <8 days until my books go to
            > production for publication!
          • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
            Heh heh! ;-) I m typing up my notes, little by little, on my lunch hour! (so far, I seem to be keeping this ... whatever it is illness ... at bay. Can t say
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 6, 2007
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              Heh heh! ;-)

              I'm typing up my notes, little by little, on my lunch hour!

              (so far, I seem to be keeping this ... whatever it is illness ... at bay. Can't
              say the same for the family. Man are they ill!!


              Matt West



              Quoting Pippin <1kf.lists@...>:

              > Matt, Matt, Matt--enough with the family, work, illness stuff. Where ARE
              > your priorities? People, elves, wizards, and hobbits are waiting on your
              > notes!
              >
              > OK
              > OK
              > Just kidding
              > Do what you need to do.
              > Get well (all of you) SOON.
              >
              > Pippin
              >
              > > [Original Message]
              > > I'm sorry that my notes for this week's chapter are going to be a bit
              > > late! My wife has had pneumonia for a week, my daughter has had a
              > > fever for 8 days and can't stop coughing, I am starting to catch
              > > whatever they have got, and it's <8 days until my books go to
              > > production for publication!
              >
              >
              >





              -------------------------------------------
              Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
            • Susan
              No worries, Matt! Everyone has a life. I love your notes and am willing to wait patiently for them. (I m already a few chapters ahead anyway because I can t
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 6, 2007
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                No worries, Matt! Everyone has a life. I love your notes and am
                willing to wait patiently for them.

                (I'm already a few chapters ahead anyway because I can't wait!! Good
                news is I'm also re-reading The Hobbit and I'm almost done with that.
                It's such a great book!!)

                Susan


                --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" <tea_party@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey everyone,
                >
                > I'm sorry that my notes for this week's chapter are going to be a bit
                > late! My wife has had pneumonia for a week, my daughter has had a
                > fever for 8 days and can't stop coughing, I am starting to catch
                > whatever they have got, and it's <8 days until my books go to
                > production for publication!
                >
                > I will try my very best to get my notes typed up before the end of the
                > week!!
                >
                > With apologies,
                >
                > Matt West
                >
              • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
                Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor -Feanor had a premonition that the Trees and the glory of the Blessed Realm would soon perish, so he devised a
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 6, 2007
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                  Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

                  -Feanor had a premonition that the Trees and the glory of the Blessed Realm
                  would soon perish, so he devised a plan to preserve the light. He did this in
                  three great jewels called The Silmarils. Presumably one with light from
                  Telperion, one with light from Laurelin, and one with intermingled
                  light--although nothing is explicitly stated here. Perhaps later?

                  -Feanor only knows of what substance the Silmarils are made. They are
                  indestructable. They are also merely forms that contain the blended light of the
                  Trees so that they shine like the stars of Varda from the light within. They
                  also receive light and refract and reflect it back in marvelous colours.

                  -To Feanor, the Silmarils are as his children (foreboding music here...).

                  -Varda hallows the Silmarils so that any unclean flesh that touched them would
                  be scorched and withered. One has to wonder why she didn't do this to the Trees
                  as well ... as we shall see!

                  -Mandos foretells that the fate of Arda lays locked within the Silmarils (more
                  foreboding music!).

                  -Melkor, true to his character, lusts after the Silmarils. From that point on,
                  he plots to destroy Feanor, end the Friendship of the Valar and the Elves, and
                  obtain the Silmarils for himself (and so the wheels of this slow to start story
                  are at last set in motion!).

                  -Melkor begins to subtly work by sowing lies that others soon spread for him. He
                  plants the thought that the Valar brought the Elves to Aman out of jealousy and
                  fear of what they might create and become, not out of friendship and love. He
                  tells the Elves of the coming of Men, something that they were not previously
                  made aware. He tells them that it is a great secret that the Valar are keeping
                  from them. He tells them that they are being held captive so that Men could come
                  and build great kingdoms in the East in Middle-earth.

                  -Slowly, Melkor's words begin to affect the relationship between the Valar and
                  the Elves--particularly the Noldor.

                  -Feanor becomes greedy with the Silmarils, no longer sharing their beauty with
                  all the Elves and the Valar, but reserving them for his father and sons.

                  -Feanor and Fingolfin become proud and jealous of each other. So, Melkor begins
                  to spread lies that Fingolfin and his sons are planning to usurp Finwe and the
                  elder line of Feanor and take the kingship of the Elves for themselves.
                  Meanwhile he tells Fingolfin and Finarfin that Feanor plans to remove Finwe from
                  his throne and then drive Fingolfin, Finarfin, and their families from Tuna.

                  -As hatred and distrust builds between and among the Noldor, Melkor begins to
                  tech them to make weapons. Feanor made a secret forge when he smythied great
                  swords and armour.

                  -Feanor begins to speak openly of rebellion against the Valar. He offers to
                  deliver the Noldor from thraldom if they would follow him back to Middle-earth.

                  -Feanor shows up to a counsel of the Elves in full armour, and threatens
                  Fingolfin with a sword.

                  -The Valar are unaware of Melkor's machinations, so they blame the growing
                  unrest of the Elves on Feanor. They summon him to answer for all his deeds and
                  words, but through questioning him they determine that Melkor is really the one
                  to blame for the discontent of the Elves. Tulkas goes off to find Melkor and
                  bring him to judgement, but Melkor hides himself as a cloud in the hills and
                  eludes Tulkas.

                  -Despite Melkor's implication, Feanor is judged guilty of his crimes and is
                  exiled for 12 years from Tirion--even though Fingolfin offers to forgive him.
                  Feanor's sons are also banished. They leave and build a stronghold called
                  Formenos, and make weaponry, then lock themselves up in the North of Valinor
                  with their gems and with the Silmarils. Finwe joins his son, leaving Fingolfin
                  to rule in Tirion.

                  -The light of the Trees appears to dim after all these events, and shadows begin
                  to darken in Valinor.

                  -Melkor is not seen again for a long time, until suddenly he appears at Formenos
                  to speak with Feanor, feigning friendship. He offers to help Feanor escape from
                  Aman. He suggests to Feanor that the Silmarils will not be safe from the Valar
                  if they remain in Aman. Unfortunately, Melkor shows his hand here, making his
                  first big mistake. This offer clues Feanor into the fact that Melkor himself is
                  the one lusting after the Silmarils. Feanor curses Melkor, tells him to leave,
                  then shuts the door in the face of the most powerful being in Ea. One has to
                  wonder at the pride of Feanor that he would do such a thing and not expect to
                  bear the wrath of this being!

                  -Melkor flees in fear. He knows that he is now exposed to the other Valar and
                  risks their wrath if they catch him.

                  -Finwe sends messagers to Manwe, and Orome and Tulkas set out in search of
                  Melkor. Wisely, Melkor departs from Valinor, leaving all of Aman in fear of the
                  evil that might now come. This completely mars the joy that once filled Valinor,
                  the Blessed Realm.




                  -------------------------------------------
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                • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
                  Tolkien finally begins to movet the story along, but his details in this chapter are scant! There are a whole bunch of things that I am dying to know, but that
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 6, 2007
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                    Tolkien finally begins to movet the story along, but his details in this chapter
                    are scant! There are a whole bunch of things that I am dying to know, but that
                    he never reveals. Like:

                    1. In what form does Melkor appear throughout this part of the story? Does he
                    take on the fair appearance of the Elves? No one seems to react to his
                    appearance, so presumably he is "blending in" with the other Valar. He must not
                    be appearing in the guise of the Geat Dark Lord that he will assume in
                    subsequent chapters.

                    2. How big are the Silmarils? Baseball sized is what I imagine, but they could
                    be larger or smaller. Maybe they are only marble sized or ping pong ball sized.
                    What colours are they? Do they each have a name?

                    3. Why did Feanor choose to make three Silmarils when there are only two Trees?

                    4. How was it that Manwe was so blind to what Melkor was up to? For one who
                    "sees all", he completely missed all this action going on under his nose.

                    5. Why didn't Tulkas and Orome keep tabs on Melkor? Surely they had enough Maiar
                    working for them that they could have had someone monitoring him at all times.

                    6. Why were all the Noldor so easily beguiled by Melkor? Were they so naive as
                    to trust in the words of a convicted criminal? How did Melkor fool them? Did he
                    take on the appearance of Elves that they knew so that they would think that it
                    was a friend, and not the evil one, who was talking to them?

                    It is such a shame that JRRT did not live to finish this work. I will have to go
                    back and reread the Book of Lost Tales to see if more light is shed on these
                    questions there.

                    Matt West



                    Quoting tea_party@...:

                    > Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
                    >
                    > -Feanor had a premonition that the Trees and the glory of the Blessed Realm
                    > would soon perish, so he devised a plan to preserve the light. He did this
                    > in
                    > three great jewels called The Silmarils. Presumably one with light from
                    > Telperion, one with light from Laurelin, and one with intermingled
                    > light--although nothing is explicitly stated here. Perhaps later?
                    >
                    > -Feanor only knows of what substance the Silmarils are made. They are
                    > indestructable. They are also merely forms that contain the blended light of
                    > the
                    > Trees so that they shine like the stars of Varda from the light within. They
                    > also receive light and refract and reflect it back in marvelous colours.
                    >
                    > -To Feanor, the Silmarils are as his children (foreboding music here...).
                    >
                    > -Varda hallows the Silmarils so that any unclean flesh that touched them
                    > would
                    > be scorched and withered. One has to wonder why she didn't do this to the
                    > Trees
                    > as well ... as we shall see!
                    >
                    > -Mandos foretells that the fate of Arda lays locked within the Silmarils
                    > (more
                    > foreboding music!).
                    >
                    > -Melkor, true to his character, lusts after the Silmarils. From that point
                    > on,
                    > he plots to destroy Feanor, end the Friendship of the Valar and the Elves,
                    > and
                    > obtain the Silmarils for himself (and so the wheels of this slow to start
                    > story
                    > are at last set in motion!).
                    >
                    > -Melkor begins to subtly work by sowing lies that others soon spread for him.
                    > He
                    > plants the thought that the Valar brought the Elves to Aman out of jealousy
                    > and
                    > fear of what they might create and become, not out of friendship and love.
                    > He
                    > tells the Elves of the coming of Men, something that they were not
                    > previously
                    > made aware. He tells them that it is a great secret that the Valar are
                    > keeping
                    > from them. He tells them that they are being held captive so that Men could
                    > come
                    > and build great kingdoms in the East in Middle-earth.
                    >
                    > -Slowly, Melkor's words begin to affect the relationship between the Valar
                    > and
                    > the Elves--particularly the Noldor.
                    >
                    > -Feanor becomes greedy with the Silmarils, no longer sharing their beauty
                    > with
                    > all the Elves and the Valar, but reserving them for his father and sons.
                    >
                    > -Feanor and Fingolfin become proud and jealous of each other. So, Melkor
                    > begins
                    > to spread lies that Fingolfin and his sons are planning to usurp Finwe and
                    > the
                    > elder line of Feanor and take the kingship of the Elves for themselves.
                    > Meanwhile he tells Fingolfin and Finarfin that Feanor plans to remove Finwe
                    > from
                    > his throne and then drive Fingolfin, Finarfin, and their families from Tuna.
                    >
                    > -As hatred and distrust builds between and among the Noldor, Melkor begins
                    > to
                    > tech them to make weapons. Feanor made a secret forge when he smythied great
                    > swords and armour.
                    >
                    > -Feanor begins to speak openly of rebellion against the Valar. He offers to
                    > deliver the Noldor from thraldom if they would follow him back to
                    > Middle-earth.
                    >
                    > -Feanor shows up to a counsel of the Elves in full armour, and threatens
                    > Fingolfin with a sword.
                    >
                    > -The Valar are unaware of Melkor's machinations, so they blame the growing
                    > unrest of the Elves on Feanor. They summon him to answer for all his deeds
                    > and
                    > words, but through questioning him they determine that Melkor is really the
                    > one
                    > to blame for the discontent of the Elves. Tulkas goes off to find Melkor and
                    > bring him to judgement, but Melkor hides himself as a cloud in the hills and
                    > eludes Tulkas.
                    >
                    > -Despite Melkor's implication, Feanor is judged guilty of his crimes and is
                    > exiled for 12 years from Tirion--even though Fingolfin offers to forgive
                    > him.
                    > Feanor's sons are also banished. They leave and build a stronghold called
                    > Formenos, and make weaponry, then lock themselves up in the North of Valinor
                    > with their gems and with the Silmarils. Finwe joins his son, leaving
                    > Fingolfin
                    > to rule in Tirion.
                    >
                    > -The light of the Trees appears to dim after all these events, and shadows
                    > begin
                    > to darken in Valinor.
                    >
                    > -Melkor is not seen again for a long time, until suddenly he appears at
                    > Formenos
                    > to speak with Feanor, feigning friendship. He offers to help Feanor escape
                    > from
                    > Aman. He suggests to Feanor that the Silmarils will not be safe from the
                    > Valar
                    > if they remain in Aman. Unfortunately, Melkor shows his hand here, making
                    > his
                    > first big mistake. This offer clues Feanor into the fact that Melkor himself
                    > is
                    > the one lusting after the Silmarils. Feanor curses Melkor, tells him to
                    > leave,
                    > then shuts the door in the face of the most powerful being in Ea. One has to
                    > wonder at the pride of Feanor that he would do such a thing and not expect
                    > to
                    > bear the wrath of this being!
                    >
                    > -Melkor flees in fear. He knows that he is now exposed to the other Valar
                    > and
                    > risks their wrath if they catch him.
                    >
                    > -Finwe sends messagers to Manwe, and Orome and Tulkas set out in search of
                    > Melkor. Wisely, Melkor departs from Valinor, leaving all of Aman in fear of
                    > the
                    > evil that might now come. This completely mars the joy that once filled
                    > Valinor,
                    > the Blessed Realm.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -------------------------------------------
                    > Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
                    >
                    >





                    -------------------------------------------
                    Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
                  • Susan
                    (rubs hands together with glee) Now is when the good stuff starts!! [ :)] ... Realm ... this in ... from ... light of the ... within. They ... colours. ...
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 6, 2007
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                      (rubs hands together with glee)  Now is when the good stuff starts!!  >:)



                      --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, tea_party@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
                      >
                      > -Feanor had a premonition that the Trees and the glory of the Blessed Realm
                      > would soon perish, so he devised a plan to preserve the light. He did this in
                      > three great jewels called The Silmarils. Presumably one with light from
                      > Telperion, one with light from Laurelin, and one with intermingled
                      > light--although nothing is explicitly stated here. Perhaps later?
                      >
                      > -Feanor only knows of what substance the Silmarils are made. They are
                      > indestructable. They are also merely forms that contain the blended light of the
                      > Trees so that they shine like the stars of Varda from the light within. They
                      > also receive light and refract and reflect it back in marvelous colours.
                      >
                      > -To Feanor, the Silmarils are as his children (foreboding music here...).
                      >
                      > -Varda hallows the Silmarils so that any unclean flesh that touched them would
                      > be scorched and withered. One has to wonder why she didn't do this to the Trees
                      > as well ... as we shall see!
                      >
                      > -Mandos foretells that the fate of Arda lays locked within the Silmarils (more
                      > foreboding music!).
                      >
                      > -Melkor, true to his character, lusts after the Silmarils. From that point on,
                      > he plots to destroy Feanor, end the Friendship of the Valar and the Elves, and
                      > obtain the Silmarils for himself (and so the wheels of this slow to start story
                      > are at last set in motion!).
                      >
                      > -Melkor begins to subtly work by sowing lies that others soon spread for him. He
                      > plants the thought that the Valar brought the Elves to Aman out of jealousy and
                      > fear of what they might create and become, not out of friendship and love. He
                      > tells the Elves of the coming of Men, something that they were not previously
                      > made aware. He tells them that it is a great secret that the Valar are keeping
                      > from them. He tells them that they are being held captive so that Men could come
                      > and build great kingdoms in the East in Middle-earth.
                      >
                      > -Slowly, Melkor's words begin to affect the relationship between the Valar and
                      > the Elves--particularly the Noldor.
                      >
                      > -Feanor becomes greedy with the Silmarils, no longer sharing their beauty with
                      > all the Elves and the Valar, but reserving them for his father and sons.
                      >
                      > -Feanor and Fingolfin become proud and jealous of each other. So, Melkor begins
                      > to spread lies that Fingolfin and his sons are planning to usurp Finwe and the
                      > elder line of Feanor and take the kingship of the Elves for themselves.
                      > Meanwhile he tells Fingolfin and Finarfin that Feanor plans to remove Finwe from
                      > his throne and then drive Fingolfin, Finarfin, and their families from Tuna.
                      >
                      > -As hatred and distrust builds between and among the Noldor, Melkor begins to
                      > tech them to make weapons. Feanor made a secret forge when he smythied great
                      > swords and armour.
                      >
                      > -Feanor begins to speak openly of rebellion against the Valar. He offers to
                      > deliver the Noldor from thraldom if they would follow him back to Middle-earth.
                      >
                      > -Feanor shows up to a counsel of the Elves in full armour, and threatens
                      > Fingolfin with a sword.
                      >
                      > -The Valar are unaware of Melkor's machinations, so they blame the growing
                      > unrest of the Elves on Feanor. They summon him to answer for all his deeds and
                      > words, but through questioning him they determine that Melkor is really the one
                      > to blame for the discontent of the Elves. Tulkas goes off to find Melkor and
                      > bring him to judgement, but Melkor hides himself as a cloud in the hills and
                      > eludes Tulkas.
                      >
                      > -Despite Melkor's implication, Feanor is judged guilty of his crimes and is
                      > exiled for 12 years from Tirion--even though Fingolfin offers to forgive him.
                      > Feanor's sons are also banished. They leave and build a stronghold called
                      > Formenos, and make weaponry, then lock themselves up in the North of Valinor
                      > with their gems and with the Silmarils. Finwe joins his son, leaving Fingolfin
                      > to rule in Tirion.
                      >
                      > -The light of the Trees appears to dim after all these events, and shadows begin
                      > to darken in Valinor.
                      >
                      > -Melkor is not seen again for a long time, until suddenly he appears at Formenos
                      > to speak with Feanor, feigning friendship. He offers to help Feanor escape from
                      > Aman. He suggests to Feanor that the Silmarils will not be safe from the Valar
                      > if they remain in Aman. Unfortunately, Melkor shows his hand here, making his
                      > first big mistake. This offer clues Feanor into the fact that Melkor himself is
                      > the one lusting after the Silmarils. Feanor curses Melkor, tells him to leave,
                      > then shuts the door in the face of the most powerful being in Ea. One has to
                      > wonder at the pride of Feanor that he would do such a thing and not expect to
                      > bear the wrath of this being!
                      >
                      > -Melkor flees in fear. He knows that he is now exposed to the other Valar and
                      > risks their wrath if they catch him.
                      >
                      > -Finwe sends messagers to Manwe, and Orome and Tulkas set out in search of
                      > Melkor. Wisely, Melkor departs from Valinor, leaving all of Aman in fear of the
                      > evil that might now come. This completely mars the joy that once filled Valinor,
                      > the Blessed Realm.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -------------------------------------------
                      > Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
                      >
                    • Susan
                      I was under the impression that everyone knew he was Melkor the whole time. He spent a long time imprisoned and made promises to be good when he got out. I
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 6, 2007
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                        I was under the impression that everyone knew he was Melkor the whole
                        time. He spent a long time imprisoned and made promises to be good when
                        he got out. I think he spent a lot of time placating everyone into
                        thinking he had turned over a new leaf and was no longer a threat. How
                        wrong everyone was! He did a VERY good snow job on everyone.

                        I also think that because Feanor seemed to burn with the fire of two
                        people (his mother basically gave hers to him) there was no stopping him
                        and that is probably also what lead to his behavior both here and in
                        future chapters. He had the pride, jealousy, creativity, knowledge,
                        craftsmanship, etc of two Elves, not just one. I could say a bit more
                        but I don't want to give away anything from the next few chapters but
                        his personality reminds me of a white-hot flare, both in intensity and
                        duration.

                        Susan


                        --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, tea_party@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Tolkien finally begins to movet the story along, but his details in
                        this chapter
                        > are scant! There are a whole bunch of things that I am dying to know,
                        but that
                        > he never reveals. Like:
                        >
                        > 1. In what form does Melkor appear throughout this part of the story?
                        Does he
                        > take on the fair appearance of the Elves? No one seems to react to his
                        > appearance, so presumably he is "blending in" with the other Valar. He
                        must not
                        > be appearing in the guise of the Geat Dark Lord that he will assume in
                        > subsequent chapters.
                        >
                        > 2. How big are the Silmarils? Baseball sized is what I imagine, but
                        they could
                        > be larger or smaller. Maybe they are only marble sized or ping pong
                        ball sized.
                        > What colours are they? Do they each have a name?
                        >
                        > 3. Why did Feanor choose to make three Silmarils when there are only
                        two Trees?
                        >
                        > 4. How was it that Manwe was so blind to what Melkor was up to? For
                        one who
                        > "sees all", he completely missed all this action going on under his
                        nose.
                        >
                        > 5. Why didn't Tulkas and Orome keep tabs on Melkor? Surely they had
                        enough Maiar
                        > working for them that they could have had someone monitoring him at
                        all times.
                        >
                        > 6. Why were all the Noldor so easily beguiled by Melkor? Were they so
                        naive as
                        > to trust in the words of a convicted criminal? How did Melkor fool
                        them? Did he
                        > take on the appearance of Elves that they knew so that they would
                        think that it
                        > was a friend, and not the evil one, who was talking to them?
                        >
                        > It is such a shame that JRRT did not live to finish this work. I will
                        have to go
                        > back and reread the Book of Lost Tales to see if more light is shed on
                        these
                        > questions there.
                        >
                        > Matt West
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Quoting tea_party@...:
                        >
                        > > Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
                        > >
                        > > -Feanor had a premonition that the Trees and the glory of the
                        Blessed Realm
                        > > would soon perish, so he devised a plan to preserve the light. He
                        did this
                        > > in
                        > > three great jewels called The Silmarils. Presumably one with light
                        from
                        > > Telperion, one with light from Laurelin, and one with intermingled
                        > > light--although nothing is explicitly stated here. Perhaps later?
                        > >
                        > > -Feanor only knows of what substance the Silmarils are made. They
                        are
                        > > indestructable. They are also merely forms that contain the blended
                        light of
                        > > the
                        > > Trees so that they shine like the stars of Varda from the light
                        within. They
                        > > also receive light and refract and reflect it back in marvelous
                        colours.
                        > >
                        > > -To Feanor, the Silmarils are as his children (foreboding music
                        here...).
                        > >
                        > > -Varda hallows the Silmarils so that any unclean flesh that touched
                        them
                        > > would
                        > > be scorched and withered. One has to wonder why she didn't do this
                        to the
                        > > Trees
                        > > as well ... as we shall see!
                        > >
                        > > -Mandos foretells that the fate of Arda lays locked within the
                        Silmarils
                        > > (more
                        > > foreboding music!).
                        > >
                        > > -Melkor, true to his character, lusts after the Silmarils. From that
                        point
                        > > on,
                        > > he plots to destroy Feanor, end the Friendship of the Valar and the
                        Elves,
                        > > and
                        > > obtain the Silmarils for himself (and so the wheels of this slow to
                        start
                        > > story
                        > > are at last set in motion!).
                        > >
                        > > -Melkor begins to subtly work by sowing lies that others soon spread
                        for him.
                        > > He
                        > > plants the thought that the Valar brought the Elves to Aman out of
                        jealousy
                        > > and
                        > > fear of what they might create and become, not out of friendship and
                        love.
                        > > He
                        > > tells the Elves of the coming of Men, something that they were not
                        > > previously
                        > > made aware. He tells them that it is a great secret that the Valar
                        are
                        > > keeping
                        > > from them. He tells them that they are being held captive so that
                        Men could
                        > > come
                        > > and build great kingdoms in the East in Middle-earth.
                        > >
                        > > -Slowly, Melkor's words begin to affect the relationship between the
                        Valar
                        > > and
                        > > the Elves--particularly the Noldor.
                        > >
                        > > -Feanor becomes greedy with the Silmarils, no longer sharing their
                        beauty
                        > > with
                        > > all the Elves and the Valar, but reserving them for his father and
                        sons.
                        > >
                        > > -Feanor and Fingolfin become proud and jealous of each other. So,
                        Melkor
                        > > begins
                        > > to spread lies that Fingolfin and his sons are planning to usurp
                        Finwe and
                        > > the
                        > > elder line of Feanor and take the kingship of the Elves for
                        themselves.
                        > > Meanwhile he tells Fingolfin and Finarfin that Feanor plans to
                        remove Finwe
                        > > from
                        > > his throne and then drive Fingolfin, Finarfin, and their families
                        from Tuna.
                        > >
                        > > -As hatred and distrust builds between and among the Noldor, Melkor
                        begins
                        > > to
                        > > tech them to make weapons. Feanor made a secret forge when he
                        smythied great
                        > > swords and armour.
                        > >
                        > > -Feanor begins to speak openly of rebellion against the Valar. He
                        offers to
                        > > deliver the Noldor from thraldom if they would follow him back to
                        > > Middle-earth.
                        > >
                        > > -Feanor shows up to a counsel of the Elves in full armour, and
                        threatens
                        > > Fingolfin with a sword.
                        > >
                        > > -The Valar are unaware of Melkor's machinations, so they blame the
                        growing
                        > > unrest of the Elves on Feanor. They summon him to answer for all his
                        deeds
                        > > and
                        > > words, but through questioning him they determine that Melkor is
                        really the
                        > > one
                        > > to blame for the discontent of the Elves. Tulkas goes off to find
                        Melkor and
                        > > bring him to judgement, but Melkor hides himself as a cloud in the
                        hills and
                        > > eludes Tulkas.
                        > >
                        > > -Despite Melkor's implication, Feanor is judged guilty of his crimes
                        and is
                        > > exiled for 12 years from Tirion--even though Fingolfin offers to
                        forgive
                        > > him.
                        > > Feanor's sons are also banished. They leave and build a stronghold
                        called
                        > > Formenos, and make weaponry, then lock themselves up in the North of
                        Valinor
                        > > with their gems and with the Silmarils. Finwe joins his son, leaving
                        > > Fingolfin
                        > > to rule in Tirion.
                        > >
                        > > -The light of the Trees appears to dim after all these events, and
                        shadows
                        > > begin
                        > > to darken in Valinor.
                        > >
                        > > -Melkor is not seen again for a long time, until suddenly he appears
                        at
                        > > Formenos
                        > > to speak with Feanor, feigning friendship. He offers to help Feanor
                        escape
                        > > from
                        > > Aman. He suggests to Feanor that the Silmarils will not be safe from
                        the
                        > > Valar
                        > > if they remain in Aman. Unfortunately, Melkor shows his hand here,
                        making
                        > > his
                        > > first big mistake. This offer clues Feanor into the fact that Melkor
                        himself
                        > > is
                        > > the one lusting after the Silmarils. Feanor curses Melkor, tells him
                        to
                        > > leave,
                        > > then shuts the door in the face of the most powerful being in Ea.
                        One has to
                        > > wonder at the pride of Feanor that he would do such a thing and not
                        expect
                        > > to
                        > > bear the wrath of this being!
                        > >
                        > > -Melkor flees in fear. He knows that he is now exposed to the other
                        Valar
                        > > and
                        > > risks their wrath if they catch him.
                        > >
                        > > -Finwe sends messagers to Manwe, and Orome and Tulkas set out in
                        search of
                        > > Melkor. Wisely, Melkor departs from Valinor, leaving all of Aman in
                        fear of
                        > > the
                        > > evil that might now come. This completely mars the joy that once
                        filled
                        > > Valinor,
                        > > the Blessed Realm.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -------------------------------------------
                        > > Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -------------------------------------------
                        > Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
                        >
                      • Gary Bellinger
                        Yep, the gloves start to come off here. Lines are drawn. We re nearing the point of (almost) No Return . ... From: Susan To:
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 7, 2007
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                          Yep, the gloves start to come off here. Lines are drawn. We're nearing the point of  (almost) 'No Return'.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Susan
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 9:49 PM
                          Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

                          (rubs hands together with glee)  Now is when the good stuff starts!!  >:)



                          --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, tea_party@... wrote:
                          >
                          > Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
                          >
                          > -Feanor had a premonition that the Trees and the glory of the Blessed Realm
                          > would soon perish, so he devised a plan to preserve the light. He did this in
                          > three great jewels called The Silmarils. Presumably one with light from
                          > Telperion, one with light from Laurelin, and one with intermingled
                          > light--although nothing is explicitly stated here. Perhaps later?
                          >
                          > -Feanor only knows of what substance the Silmarils are made. They are
                          > indestructable. They are also merely forms that contain the blended light of the
                          > Trees so that they shine like the stars of Varda from the light within! . They
                          > also receive light and refract and reflect it back in marvelous colours.
                          >
                          > -To Feanor, the Silmarils are as his children (foreboding music here...).
                          >
                          > -Varda hallows the Silmarils so that any unclean flesh that touched them would
                          > be scorched and withered. One has to wonder why she didn't do this to the Trees
                          > as well ... as we shall see!
                          >
                          > -Mandos foretells that the fate of Arda lays locked within the Silmarils (more
                          > foreboding music!).
                          >
                          > -Melkor, true to his character, lusts after the Silmarils. From that point on,
                          > he plots to destroy Feanor, end the Friendship of the Valar and the Elves, and
                          > obtain the Silmarils for himself (and so the wheels of this slow to start story
                          > are at last set in motion!).
                          >
                          > -Melkor begins to subtly work by sowing lies that others soon spread for him. He
                          > plants the thought that the Valar brought the Elve! s to Aman out of jealousy and
                          > fear of what they might create a nd become, not out of friendship and love. He
                          > tells the Elves of the coming of Men, something that they were not previously
                          > made aware. He tells them that it is a great secret that the Valar are keeping
                          > from them. He tells them that they are being held captive so that Men could come
                          > and build great kingdoms in the East in Middle-earth.
                          >
                          > -Slowly, Melkor's words begin to affect the relationship between the Valar and
                          > the Elves--particularly the Noldor.
                          >
                          > -Feanor becomes greedy with the Silmarils, no longer sharing their beauty with
                          > all the Elves and the Valar, but reserving them for his father and sons.
                          >
                          > -Feanor and Fingolfin become proud and jealous of each other. So, Melkor begins
                          > to spread lies that Fingolfin and his sons are planning to usurp Finwe and the
                          > elder line of Feanor and take the kingship of the Elves for themselves.
                          > Meanwhile he tells Fingolfin a! nd Finarfin that Feanor plans to remove Finwe from
                          > his throne and then drive Fingolfin, Finarfin, and their families from Tuna.
                          >
                          > -As hatred and distrust builds between and among the Noldor, Melkor begins to
                          > tech them to make weapons. Feanor made a secret forge when he smythied great
                          > swords and armour.
                          >
                          > -Feanor begins to speak openly of rebellion against the Valar. He offers to
                          > deliver the Noldor from thraldom if they would follow him back to Middle-earth.
                          >
                          > -Feanor shows up to a counsel of the Elves in full armour, and threatens
                          > Fingolfin with a sword.
                          >
                          > -The Valar are unaware of Melkor's machinations, so they blame the growing
                          > unrest of the Elves on Feanor. They summon him to answer for all his deeds and
                          > words, but through questioning him they determine that Melkor is really the one
                          > to blame for the discontent of the Elves. Tulkas goes off to find M! elkor and
                          > bring him to judgement, but Melkor hides himself as a cloud in the hills and
                          > eludes Tulkas.
                          >
                          > -Despite Melkor's implication, Feanor is judged guilty of his crimes and is
                          > exiled for 12 years from Tirion--even though Fingolfin offers to forgive him.
                          > Feanor's sons are also banished. They leave and build a stronghold called
                          > Formenos, and make weaponry, then lock themselves up in the North of Valinor
                          > with their gems and with the Silmarils. Finwe joins his son, leaving Fingolfin
                          > to rule in Tirion.
                          >
                          > -The light of the Trees appears to dim after all these events, and shadows begin
                          > to darken in Valinor.
                          >
                          > -Melkor is not seen again for a long time, until suddenly he appears at Formenos
                          > to speak with Feanor, feigning friendship. He offers to help Feanor escape from
                          > Aman. He suggests to Feanor that the Silmarils will not be safe from the Valar
                          > if they remain in Aman. Unfortunately, Melkor shows his hand here, makin! g his
                          > first big mistake. This offer clues Feanor into the fact that Melkor himself is
                          > the one lusting after the Silmarils. Feanor curses Melkor, tells him to leave,
                          > then shuts the door in the face of the most powerful being in Ea. One has to
                          > wonder at the pride of Feanor that he would do such a thing and not expect to
                          > bear the wrath of this being!
                          >
                          > -Melkor flees in fear. He knows that he is now exposed to the other Valar and
                          > risks their wrath if they catch him.
                          >
                          > -Finwe sends messagers to Manwe, and Orome and Tulkas set out in search of
                          > Melkor. Wisely, Melkor departs from Valinor, leaving all of Aman in fear of the
                          > evil that might now come. This completely mars the joy that once filled Valinor,
                          > the Blessed Realm.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -------------------------------------------
                          > Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
                          >
                        • Gary Bellinger
                          This deception of Melkor really proved to a point how naive even the Valar could be. They understood good and evil and all of that but they proved quite
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 7, 2007
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                            This deception of Melkor really proved to a point how naive even the Valar
                            could be. They understood good and evil and all of that but they proved
                            quite susceptible in the area of honesty and deception and lulled the whole
                            of Valinor down the proverbial garden path.

                            As for the Silmarils, they really were a double edged sword for all
                            concerned. Not only did Feanor put the light of Telperion and Laurelin into
                            the Silmarils, he also poured everything of himself into them. Pride.
                            Jealousy. Craftmanship. Knowledge. Envy. Revenge. Bitterness. All these
                            qualities continued to trap those who followed and spawned new traps as if
                            they were offspring of the Silmarils, ie., the One Ring.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Susan" <slh9031@...>
                            To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:02 PM
                            Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the
                            Noldor


                            >I was under the impression that everyone knew he was Melkor the whole
                            > time. He spent a long time imprisoned and made promises to be good when
                            > he got out. I think he spent a lot of time placating everyone into
                            > thinking he had turned over a new leaf and was no longer a threat. How
                            > wrong everyone was! He did a VERY good snow job on everyone.
                            >
                            > I also think that because Feanor seemed to burn with the fire of two
                            > people (his mother basically gave hers to him) there was no stopping him
                            > and that is probably also what lead to his behavior both here and in
                            > future chapters. He had the pride, jealousy, creativity, knowledge,
                            > craftsmanship, etc of two Elves, not just one. I could say a bit more
                            > but I don't want to give away anything from the next few chapters but
                            > his personality reminds me of a white-hot flare, both in intensity and
                            > duration.
                            >
                            > Susan
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, tea_party@... wrote:
                            >>
                            >> Tolkien finally begins to movet the story along, but his details in
                            > this chapter
                            >> are scant! There are a whole bunch of things that I am dying to know,
                            > but that
                            >> he never reveals. Like:
                            >>
                            >> 1. In what form does Melkor appear throughout this part of the story?
                            > Does he
                            >> take on the fair appearance of the Elves? No one seems to react to his
                            >> appearance, so presumably he is "blending in" with the other Valar. He
                            > must not
                            >> be appearing in the guise of the Geat Dark Lord that he will assume in
                            >> subsequent chapters.
                            >>
                            >> 2. How big are the Silmarils? Baseball sized is what I imagine, but
                            > they could
                            >> be larger or smaller. Maybe they are only marble sized or ping pong
                            > ball sized.
                            >> What colours are they? Do they each have a name?
                            >>
                            >> 3. Why did Feanor choose to make three Silmarils when there are only
                            > two Trees?
                            >>
                            >> 4. How was it that Manwe was so blind to what Melkor was up to? For
                            > one who
                            >> "sees all", he completely missed all this action going on under his
                            > nose.
                            >>
                            >> 5. Why didn't Tulkas and Orome keep tabs on Melkor? Surely they had
                            > enough Maiar
                            >> working for them that they could have had someone monitoring him at
                            > all times.
                            >>
                            >> 6. Why were all the Noldor so easily beguiled by Melkor? Were they so
                            > naive as
                            >> to trust in the words of a convicted criminal? How did Melkor fool
                            > them? Did he
                            >> take on the appearance of Elves that they knew so that they would
                            > think that it
                            >> was a friend, and not the evil one, who was talking to them?
                            >>
                            >> It is such a shame that JRRT did not live to finish this work. I will
                            > have to go
                            >> back and reread the Book of Lost Tales to see if more light is shed on
                            > these
                            >> questions there.
                            >>
                            >> Matt West
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Quoting tea_party@...:
                            >>
                            >> > Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
                            >> >
                            >> > -Feanor had a premonition that the Trees and the glory of the
                            > Blessed Realm
                            >> > would soon perish, so he devised a plan to preserve the light. He
                            > did this
                            >> > in
                            >> > three great jewels called The Silmarils. Presumably one with light
                            > from
                            >> > Telperion, one with light from Laurelin, and one with intermingled
                            >> > light--although nothing is explicitly stated here. Perhaps later?
                            >> >
                            >> > -Feanor only knows of what substance the Silmarils are made. They
                            > are
                            >> > indestructable. They are also merely forms that contain the blended
                            > light of
                            >> > the
                            >> > Trees so that they shine like the stars of Varda from the light
                            > within. They
                            >> > also receive light and refract and reflect it back in marvelous
                            > colours.
                            >> >
                            >> > -To Feanor, the Silmarils are as his children (foreboding music
                            > here...).
                            >> >
                            >> > -Varda hallows the Silmarils so that any unclean flesh that touched
                            > them
                            >> > would
                            >> > be scorched and withered. One has to wonder why she didn't do this
                            > to the
                            >> > Trees
                            >> > as well ... as we shall see!
                            >> >
                            >> > -Mandos foretells that the fate of Arda lays locked within the
                            > Silmarils
                            >> > (more
                            >> > foreboding music!).
                            >> >
                            >> > -Melkor, true to his character, lusts after the Silmarils. From that
                            > point
                            >> > on,
                            >> > he plots to destroy Feanor, end the Friendship of the Valar and the
                            > Elves,
                            >> > and
                            >> > obtain the Silmarils for himself (and so the wheels of this slow to
                            > start
                            >> > story
                            >> > are at last set in motion!).
                            >> >
                            >> > -Melkor begins to subtly work by sowing lies that others soon spread
                            > for him.
                            >> > He
                            >> > plants the thought that the Valar brought the Elves to Aman out of
                            > jealousy
                            >> > and
                            >> > fear of what they might create and become, not out of friendship and
                            > love.
                            >> > He
                            >> > tells the Elves of the coming of Men, something that they were not
                            >> > previously
                            >> > made aware. He tells them that it is a great secret that the Valar
                            > are
                            >> > keeping
                            >> > from them. He tells them that they are being held captive so that
                            > Men could
                            >> > come
                            >> > and build great kingdoms in the East in Middle-earth.
                            >> >
                            >> > -Slowly, Melkor's words begin to affect the relationship between the
                            > Valar
                            >> > and
                            >> > the Elves--particularly the Noldor.
                            >> >
                            >> > -Feanor becomes greedy with the Silmarils, no longer sharing their
                            > beauty
                            >> > with
                            >> > all the Elves and the Valar, but reserving them for his father and
                            > sons.
                            >> >
                            >> > -Feanor and Fingolfin become proud and jealous of each other. So,
                            > Melkor
                            >> > begins
                            >> > to spread lies that Fingolfin and his sons are planning to usurp
                            > Finwe and
                            >> > the
                            >> > elder line of Feanor and take the kingship of the Elves for
                            > themselves.
                            >> > Meanwhile he tells Fingolfin and Finarfin that Feanor plans to
                            > remove Finwe
                            >> > from
                            >> > his throne and then drive Fingolfin, Finarfin, and their families
                            > from Tuna.
                            >> >
                            >> > -As hatred and distrust builds between and among the Noldor, Melkor
                            > begins
                            >> > to
                            >> > tech them to make weapons. Feanor made a secret forge when he
                            > smythied great
                            >> > swords and armour.
                            >> >
                            >> > -Feanor begins to speak openly of rebellion against the Valar. He
                            > offers to
                            >> > deliver the Noldor from thraldom if they would follow him back to
                            >> > Middle-earth.
                            >> >
                            >> > -Feanor shows up to a counsel of the Elves in full armour, and
                            > threatens
                            >> > Fingolfin with a sword.
                            >> >
                            >> > -The Valar are unaware of Melkor's machinations, so they blame the
                            > growing
                            >> > unrest of the Elves on Feanor. They summon him to answer for all his
                            > deeds
                            >> > and
                            >> > words, but through questioning him they determine that Melkor is
                            > really the
                            >> > one
                            >> > to blame for the discontent of the Elves. Tulkas goes off to find
                            > Melkor and
                            >> > bring him to judgement, but Melkor hides himself as a cloud in the
                            > hills and
                            >> > eludes Tulkas.
                            >> >
                            >> > -Despite Melkor's implication, Feanor is judged guilty of his crimes
                            > and is
                            >> > exiled for 12 years from Tirion--even though Fingolfin offers to
                            > forgive
                            >> > him.
                            >> > Feanor's sons are also banished. They leave and build a stronghold
                            > called
                            >> > Formenos, and make weaponry, then lock themselves up in the North of
                            > Valinor
                            >> > with their gems and with the Silmarils. Finwe joins his son, leaving
                            >> > Fingolfin
                            >> > to rule in Tirion.
                            >> >
                            >> > -The light of the Trees appears to dim after all these events, and
                            > shadows
                            >> > begin
                            >> > to darken in Valinor.
                            >> >
                            >> > -Melkor is not seen again for a long time, until suddenly he appears
                            > at
                            >> > Formenos
                            >> > to speak with Feanor, feigning friendship. He offers to help Feanor
                            > escape
                            >> > from
                            >> > Aman. He suggests to Feanor that the Silmarils will not be safe from
                            > the
                            >> > Valar
                            >> > if they remain in Aman. Unfortunately, Melkor shows his hand here,
                            > making
                            >> > his
                            >> > first big mistake. This offer clues Feanor into the fact that Melkor
                            > himself
                            >> > is
                            >> > the one lusting after the Silmarils. Feanor curses Melkor, tells him
                            > to
                            >> > leave,
                            >> > then shuts the door in the face of the most powerful being in Ea.
                            > One has to
                            >> > wonder at the pride of Feanor that he would do such a thing and not
                            > expect
                            >> > to
                            >> > bear the wrath of this being!
                            >> >
                            >> > -Melkor flees in fear. He knows that he is now exposed to the other
                            > Valar
                            >> > and
                            >> > risks their wrath if they catch him.
                            >> >
                            >> > -Finwe sends messagers to Manwe, and Orome and Tulkas set out in
                            > search of
                            >> > Melkor. Wisely, Melkor departs from Valinor, leaving all of Aman in
                            > fear of
                            >> > the
                            >> > evil that might now come. This completely mars the joy that once
                            > filled
                            >> > Valinor,
                            >> > the Blessed Realm.
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> > -------------------------------------------
                            >> > Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> -------------------------------------------
                            >> Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                            > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                            > and Calendar sections.
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
                            It is interesting, though, that in the ages of the Elves and the Valar, the objects that everyone seeks or desires are objects of beauty. In the ages of Men,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 7, 2007
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                              It is interesting, though, that in the ages of the Elves and the Valar, the
                              objects that everyone seeks or desires are objects of beauty. In the ages of
                              Men, however, it is an object of power that everyone seeks.

                              The Silmarils have no power of their own. They are beautiful, they bring light
                              to drive away the darkness, but nothing more. All those things that Feanor
                              poured into the making of the ring only made them more desirable, but did not
                              bring any value to their possessors--only grief, as we shall see.

                              The One Ring does have power, and it enhances the evil characteristics of all
                              who wear it, bringing them great power and dominion. In the possession of
                              Hobbits and River Folk, it just corrupts them and makes them covetous. On an
                              Elve, a Man, or a Maiar, it give fantastic abilities to rule and control.

                              The Silmarils did motivate others to commit evil acts in order to acquire or
                              keep them, but they did not give the bearer anything other than unpleasant
                              characteristics.

                              Matt West


                              Quoting Gary Bellinger <yesgaz@...>:

                              > This deception of Melkor really proved to a point how naive even the Valar
                              > could be. They understood good and evil and all of that but they proved
                              > quite susceptible in the area of honesty and deception and lulled the whole
                              > of Valinor down the proverbial garden path.
                              >
                              > As for the Silmarils, they really were a double edged sword for all
                              > concerned. Not only did Feanor put the light of Telperion and Laurelin into
                              >
                              > the Silmarils, he also poured everything of himself into them. Pride.
                              > Jealousy. Craftmanship. Knowledge. Envy. Revenge. Bitterness. All these
                              > qualities continued to trap those who followed and spawned new traps as if
                              > they were offspring of the Silmarils, ie., the One Ring.
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Susan" <slh9031@...>
                              > To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:02 PM
                              > Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the
                              > Noldor
                              >
                              >
                              > >I was under the impression that everyone knew he was Melkor the whole
                              > > time. He spent a long time imprisoned and made promises to be good when
                              > > he got out. I think he spent a lot of time placating everyone into
                              > > thinking he had turned over a new leaf and was no longer a threat. How
                              > > wrong everyone was! He did a VERY good snow job on everyone.
                              > >
                              > > I also think that because Feanor seemed to burn with the fire of two
                              > > people (his mother basically gave hers to him) there was no stopping him
                              > > and that is probably also what lead to his behavior both here and in
                              > > future chapters. He had the pride, jealousy, creativity, knowledge,
                              > > craftsmanship, etc of two Elves, not just one. I could say a bit more
                              > > but I don't want to give away anything from the next few chapters but
                              > > his personality reminds me of a white-hot flare, both in intensity and
                              > > duration.
                              > >
                              > > Susan
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, tea_party@... wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >> Tolkien finally begins to movet the story along, but his details in
                              > > this chapter
                              > >> are scant! There are a whole bunch of things that I am dying to know,
                              > > but that
                              > >> he never reveals. Like:
                              > >>
                              > >> 1. In what form does Melkor appear throughout this part of the story?
                              > > Does he
                              > >> take on the fair appearance of the Elves? No one seems to react to his
                              > >> appearance, so presumably he is "blending in" with the other Valar. He
                              > > must not
                              > >> be appearing in the guise of the Geat Dark Lord that he will assume in
                              > >> subsequent chapters.
                              > >>
                              > >> 2. How big are the Silmarils? Baseball sized is what I imagine, but
                              > > they could
                              > >> be larger or smaller. Maybe they are only marble sized or ping pong
                              > > ball sized.
                              > >> What colours are they? Do they each have a name?
                              > >>
                              > >> 3. Why did Feanor choose to make three Silmarils when there are only
                              > > two Trees?
                              > >>
                              > >> 4. How was it that Manwe was so blind to what Melkor was up to? For
                              > > one who
                              > >> "sees all", he completely missed all this action going on under his
                              > > nose.
                              > >>
                              > >> 5. Why didn't Tulkas and Orome keep tabs on Melkor? Surely they had
                              > > enough Maiar
                              > >> working for them that they could have had someone monitoring him at
                              > > all times.
                              > >>
                              > >> 6. Why were all the Noldor so easily beguiled by Melkor? Were they so
                              > > naive as
                              > >> to trust in the words of a convicted criminal? How did Melkor fool
                              > > them? Did he
                              > >> take on the appearance of Elves that they knew so that they would
                              > > think that it
                              > >> was a friend, and not the evil one, who was talking to them?
                              > >>
                              > >> It is such a shame that JRRT did not live to finish this work. I will
                              > > have to go
                              > >> back and reread the Book of Lost Tales to see if more light is shed on
                              > > these
                              > >> questions there.
                              > >>
                              > >> Matt West
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> Quoting tea_party@...:
                              > >>
                              > >> > Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Feanor had a premonition that the Trees and the glory of the
                              > > Blessed Realm
                              > >> > would soon perish, so he devised a plan to preserve the light. He
                              > > did this
                              > >> > in
                              > >> > three great jewels called The Silmarils. Presumably one with light
                              > > from
                              > >> > Telperion, one with light from Laurelin, and one with intermingled
                              > >> > light--although nothing is explicitly stated here. Perhaps later?
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Feanor only knows of what substance the Silmarils are made. They
                              > > are
                              > >> > indestructable. They are also merely forms that contain the blended
                              > > light of
                              > >> > the
                              > >> > Trees so that they shine like the stars of Varda from the light
                              > > within. They
                              > >> > also receive light and refract and reflect it back in marvelous
                              > > colours.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -To Feanor, the Silmarils are as his children (foreboding music
                              > > here...).
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Varda hallows the Silmarils so that any unclean flesh that touched
                              > > them
                              > >> > would
                              > >> > be scorched and withered. One has to wonder why she didn't do this
                              > > to the
                              > >> > Trees
                              > >> > as well ... as we shall see!
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Mandos foretells that the fate of Arda lays locked within the
                              > > Silmarils
                              > >> > (more
                              > >> > foreboding music!).
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Melkor, true to his character, lusts after the Silmarils. From that
                              > > point
                              > >> > on,
                              > >> > he plots to destroy Feanor, end the Friendship of the Valar and the
                              > > Elves,
                              > >> > and
                              > >> > obtain the Silmarils for himself (and so the wheels of this slow to
                              > > start
                              > >> > story
                              > >> > are at last set in motion!).
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Melkor begins to subtly work by sowing lies that others soon spread
                              > > for him.
                              > >> > He
                              > >> > plants the thought that the Valar brought the Elves to Aman out of
                              > > jealousy
                              > >> > and
                              > >> > fear of what they might create and become, not out of friendship and
                              > > love.
                              > >> > He
                              > >> > tells the Elves of the coming of Men, something that they were not
                              > >> > previously
                              > >> > made aware. He tells them that it is a great secret that the Valar
                              > > are
                              > >> > keeping
                              > >> > from them. He tells them that they are being held captive so that
                              > > Men could
                              > >> > come
                              > >> > and build great kingdoms in the East in Middle-earth.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Slowly, Melkor's words begin to affect the relationship between the
                              > > Valar
                              > >> > and
                              > >> > the Elves--particularly the Noldor.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Feanor becomes greedy with the Silmarils, no longer sharing their
                              > > beauty
                              > >> > with
                              > >> > all the Elves and the Valar, but reserving them for his father and
                              > > sons.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Feanor and Fingolfin become proud and jealous of each other. So,
                              > > Melkor
                              > >> > begins
                              > >> > to spread lies that Fingolfin and his sons are planning to usurp
                              > > Finwe and
                              > >> > the
                              > >> > elder line of Feanor and take the kingship of the Elves for
                              > > themselves.
                              > >> > Meanwhile he tells Fingolfin and Finarfin that Feanor plans to
                              > > remove Finwe
                              > >> > from
                              > >> > his throne and then drive Fingolfin, Finarfin, and their families
                              > > from Tuna.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -As hatred and distrust builds between and among the Noldor, Melkor
                              > > begins
                              > >> > to
                              > >> > tech them to make weapons. Feanor made a secret forge when he
                              > > smythied great
                              > >> > swords and armour.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Feanor begins to speak openly of rebellion against the Valar. He
                              > > offers to
                              > >> > deliver the Noldor from thraldom if they would follow him back to
                              > >> > Middle-earth.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Feanor shows up to a counsel of the Elves in full armour, and
                              > > threatens
                              > >> > Fingolfin with a sword.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -The Valar are unaware of Melkor's machinations, so they blame the
                              > > growing
                              > >> > unrest of the Elves on Feanor. They summon him to answer for all his
                              > > deeds
                              > >> > and
                              > >> > words, but through questioning him they determine that Melkor is
                              > > really the
                              > >> > one
                              > >> > to blame for the discontent of the Elves. Tulkas goes off to find
                              > > Melkor and
                              > >> > bring him to judgement, but Melkor hides himself as a cloud in the
                              > > hills and
                              > >> > eludes Tulkas.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Despite Melkor's implication, Feanor is judged guilty of his crimes
                              > > and is
                              > >> > exiled for 12 years from Tirion--even though Fingolfin offers to
                              > > forgive
                              > >> > him.
                              > >> > Feanor's sons are also banished. They leave and build a stronghold
                              > > called
                              > >> > Formenos, and make weaponry, then lock themselves up in the North of
                              > > Valinor
                              > >> > with their gems and with the Silmarils. Finwe joins his son, leaving
                              > >> > Fingolfin
                              > >> > to rule in Tirion.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -The light of the Trees appears to dim after all these events, and
                              > > shadows
                              > >> > begin
                              > >> > to darken in Valinor.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Melkor is not seen again for a long time, until suddenly he appears
                              > > at
                              > >> > Formenos
                              > >> > to speak with Feanor, feigning friendship. He offers to help Feanor
                              > > escape
                              > >> > from
                              > >> > Aman. He suggests to Feanor that the Silmarils will not be safe from
                              > > the
                              > >> > Valar
                              > >> > if they remain in Aman. Unfortunately, Melkor shows his hand here,
                              > > making
                              > >> > his
                              > >> > first big mistake. This offer clues Feanor into the fact that Melkor
                              > > himself
                              > >> > is
                              > >> > the one lusting after the Silmarils. Feanor curses Melkor, tells him
                              > > to
                              > >> > leave,
                              > >> > then shuts the door in the face of the most powerful being in Ea.
                              > > One has to
                              > >> > wonder at the pride of Feanor that he would do such a thing and not
                              > > expect
                              > >> > to
                              > >> > bear the wrath of this being!
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Melkor flees in fear. He knows that he is now exposed to the other
                              > > Valar
                              > >> > and
                              > >> > risks their wrath if they catch him.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -Finwe sends messagers to Manwe, and Orome and Tulkas set out in
                              > > search of
                              > >> > Melkor. Wisely, Melkor departs from Valinor, leaving all of Aman in
                              > > fear of
                              > >> > the
                              > >> > evil that might now come. This completely mars the joy that once
                              > > filled
                              > >> > Valinor,
                              > >> > the Blessed Realm.
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> > -------------------------------------------
                              > >> > Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> -------------------------------------------
                              > >> Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                              > > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                              > > and Calendar sections.
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
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                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
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                              >
                              >





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                            • Jack
                              Possibly they were naïve – there had never been a convicted criminal before. They had seen him caught, punished, and apparently remorseful – no-one before
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                Possibly they were naïve – there had never been a convicted criminal before.  They had seen him caught, punished, and apparently remorseful – no-one before him had proved to be recidivist. 

                                 

                                Regards

                                Jack

                                 


                                ·                               From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of tea_party@...
                                6. Why were all the Noldor so easily beguiled by Melkor? Were they so naive as
                                to trust in the words of a convicted criminal? How did Melkor fool them? Did he
                                take on the appearance of Elves that they knew so that they would think that it
                                was a friend, and not the evil one, who was talking to them?


                                ·                                1

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                              • Susan
                                Not to change the subject........ I just finished reading The Hobbit yesterday and I was struck by something. Bilbo finds the One Ring in the Misty Mountains
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                  Not to change the subject........ I just finished reading The Hobbit
                                  yesterday and I was struck by something. Bilbo finds the One Ring in
                                  the Misty Mountains and takes it with him. Nowhere does it seem to
                                  affect him they way it does Frodo later when he puts it on. The only
                                  thing he gets out of it is invisibility (in which he helps himself and
                                  the dwarves many times to escape). It never "enhances the evil
                                  characteristics" of him but maybe that's because he is not evil in any
                                  way, he is an innocent Hobbit. (this would also be why Frodo is able to
                                  be the ring-bearer later) I'm also thinking it's because Sauron has not
                                  risen to the great power that he is in LOTR. He's known as the
                                  Necromancer in this book and is evil but not to the extent that he is
                                  later. After all, why isn't he able to just summon the Nazgul and find
                                  the Ring after the many times that Bilbo puts it on. I don't think he's
                                  able to "feel" it's presence yet. That must be tied directly to the
                                  amount of power that he, Sauron has.

                                  Anyway, sorry to digress, back to the Silmarillion!

                                  Susan

                                  >
                                  > The One Ring does have power, and it enhances the evil characteristics
                                  of all
                                  > who wear it, bringing them great power and dominion. In the possession
                                  of
                                  > Hobbits and River Folk, it just corrupts them and makes them covetous.
                                  On an
                                  > Elve, a Man, or a Maiar, it give fantastic abilities to rule and
                                  control.
                                  >
                                  > The Silmarils did motivate others to commit evil acts in order to
                                  acquire or
                                  > keep them, but they did not give the bearer anything other than
                                  unpleasant
                                  > characteristics.
                                  >
                                  > Matt West
                                • Amalee
                                  wow, this is sounding exciting. Amalee Gary Bellinger wrote: Yep, the gloves start to come off here. Lines are drawn. We re nearing the
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                    wow, this is sounding exciting.
                                     
                                    Amalee

                                    Gary Bellinger <yesgaz@...> wrote:
                                    Yep, the gloves start to come off here. Lines are drawn. We're nearing the point of  (almost) 'No Return'.
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Susan
                                    Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 9:49 PM
                                    Subject: [TolkienDiscussions ] Re: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

                                    (rubs hands together with glee)  Now is when the good stuff starts!!  >:)



                                    --- In TolkienDiscussions@ yahoogroups. com, tea_party@.. . wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
                                    >
                                    > -Feanor had a premonition that the Trees and the glory of the Blessed Realm
                                    > would soon perish, so he devised a plan to preserve the light. He did this in
                                    > three great jewels called The Silmarils. Presumably one with light from
                                    > Telperion, one with light from Laurelin, and one with intermingled
                                    > light--although nothing is explicitly stated here. Perhaps later?
                                    >
                                    > -Feanor only knows of what substance the Silmarils are made. They are
                                    > indestructable. They are also merely forms that contain the blended light of the
                                    > Trees so that they shine like the stars of Varda from the light within! . They
                                    > also receive light and refract and reflect it back in marvelous colours.
                                    >
                                    > -To Feanor, the Silmarils are as his children (foreboding music here...).
                                    >
                                    > -Varda hallows the Silmarils so that any unclean flesh that touched them would
                                    > be scorched and withered. One has to wonder why she didn't do this to the Trees
                                    > as well ... as we shall see!
                                    >
                                    > -Mandos foretells that the fate of Arda lays locked within the Silmarils (more
                                    > foreboding music!).
                                    >
                                    > -Melkor, true to his character, lusts after the Silmarils. From that point on,
                                    > he plots to destroy Feanor, end the Friendship of the Valar and the Elves, and
                                    > obtain the Silmarils for himself (and so the wheels of this slow to start story
                                    > are at last set in motion!).
                                    >
                                    > -Melkor begins to subtly work by sowing lies that others soon spread for him. He
                                    > plants the thought that the Valar brought the Elve! s to Aman out of jealousy and
                                    > fear of what they might create a nd become, not out of friendship and love. He
                                    > tells the Elves of the coming of Men, something that they were not previously
                                    > made aware. He tells them that it is a great secret that the Valar are keeping
                                    > from them. He tells them that they are being held captive so that Men could come
                                    > and build great kingdoms in the East in Middle-earth.
                                    >
                                    > -Slowly, Melkor's words begin to affect the relationship between the Valar and
                                    > the Elves--particularly the Noldor.
                                    >
                                    > -Feanor becomes greedy with the Silmarils, no longer sharing their beauty with
                                    > all the Elves and the Valar, but reserving them for his father and sons.
                                    >
                                    > -Feanor and Fingolfin become proud and jealous of each other. So, Melkor begins
                                    > to spread lies that Fingolfin and his sons are planning to usurp Finwe and the
                                    > elder line of Feanor and take the kingship of the Elves for themselves.
                                    > Meanwhile he tells Fingolfin a! nd Finarfin that Feanor plans to remove Finwe from
                                    > his throne and then drive Fingolfin, Finarfin, and their families from Tuna.
                                    >
                                    > -As hatred and distrust builds between and among the Noldor, Melkor begins to
                                    > tech them to make weapons. Feanor made a secret forge when he smythied great
                                    > swords and armour.
                                    >
                                    > -Feanor begins to speak openly of rebellion against the Valar. He offers to
                                    > deliver the Noldor from thraldom if they would follow him back to Middle-earth.
                                    >
                                    > -Feanor shows up to a counsel of the Elves in full armour, and threatens
                                    > Fingolfin with a sword.
                                    >
                                    > -The Valar are unaware of Melkor's machinations, so they blame the growing
                                    > unrest of the Elves on Feanor. They summon him to answer for all his deeds and
                                    > words, but through questioning him they determine that Melkor is really the one
                                    > to blame for the discontent of the Elves. Tulkas goes off to find M! elkor and
                                    > bring him to judgement, but Melkor hides himself as a cloud in the hills and
                                    > eludes Tulkas.
                                    >
                                    > -Despite Melkor's implication, Feanor is judged guilty of his crimes and is
                                    > exiled for 12 years from Tirion--even though Fingolfin offers to forgive him.
                                    > Feanor's sons are also banished. They leave and build a stronghold called
                                    > Formenos, and make weaponry, then lock themselves up in the North of Valinor
                                    > with their gems and with the Silmarils. Finwe joins his son, leaving Fingolfin
                                    > to rule in Tirion.
                                    >
                                    > -The light of the Trees appears to dim after all these events, and shadows begin
                                    > to darken in Valinor.
                                    >
                                    > -Melkor is not seen again for a long time, until suddenly he appears at Formenos
                                    > to speak with Feanor, feigning friendship. He offers to help Feanor escape from
                                    > Aman. He suggests to Feanor that the Silmarils will not be safe from the Valar
                                    > if they remain in Aman. Unfortunately, Melkor shows his hand here, makin! g his
                                    > first big mistake. This offer clues Feanor into the fact that Melkor himself is
                                    > the one lusting after the Silmarils. Feanor curses Melkor, tells him to leave,
                                    > then shuts the door in the face of the most powerful being in Ea. One has to
                                    > wonder at the pride of Feanor that he would do such a thing and not expect to
                                    > bear the wrath of this being!
                                    >
                                    > -Melkor flees in fear. He knows that he is now exposed to the other Valar and
                                    > risks their wrath if they catch him.
                                    >
                                    > -Finwe sends messagers to Manwe, and Orome and Tulkas set out in search of
                                    > Melkor. Wisely, Melkor departs from Valinor, leaving all of Aman in fear of the
                                    > evil that might now come. This completely mars the joy that once filled Valinor,
                                    > the Blessed Realm.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----
                                    > Get your free email at ourbrisbane. com now
                                    >



                                    Be led by joy.  It makes life worth living, as joy uplifts the spirit
                                    and creates peace within.
                                     
                                      


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                                  • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
                                    ... There are many reasons for this, most of which you outline below. But also, at that point, JRRT had not entirely worked out what he was going to do in
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                      Quoting Susan <slh9031@...>:

                                      > Not to change the subject........ I just finished reading The Hobbit
                                      > yesterday and I was struck by something. Bilbo finds the One Ring in
                                      > the Misty Mountains and takes it with him. Nowhere does it seem to
                                      > affect him they way it does Frodo later when he puts it on.

                                      There are many reasons for this, most of which you outline below. But also, at
                                      that point, JRRT had not entirely worked out what he was going to do in LotR. At
                                      that point he was still considering making the follow up to The Hobbit another
                                      children's story.


                                      > The only
                                      > thing he gets out of it is invisibility (in which he helps himself and
                                      > the dwarves many times to escape). It never "enhances the evil
                                      > characteristics" of him but maybe that's because he is not evil in any
                                      > way, he is an innocent Hobbit. (this would also be why Frodo is able to
                                      > be the ring-bearer later)

                                      Right.

                                      > I'm also thinking it's because Sauron has not
                                      > risen to the great power that he is in LOTR. He's known as the
                                      > Necromancer in this book and is evil but not to the extent that he is
                                      > later.

                                      Right. Sauron is slowly returning to power, but is unable to do the things that
                                      he can later do in LotR. Even throughout those three books, his power and
                                      abilities increase and he can do more and more.

                                      > After all, why isn't he able to just summon the Nazgul and find
                                      > the Ring after the many times that Bilbo puts it on. I don't think he's
                                      > able to "feel" it's presence yet.

                                      Right! He knows it has been found, but he doesn't know who has it. Gandalf is
                                      suspicious of The Ring, but is not sure that it is The One Ring. Its power is
                                      still somewhat dormant.

                                      > That must be tied directly to the
                                      > amount of power that he, Sauron has.

                                      Right!


                                      > Anyway, sorry to digress, back to the Silmarillion!

                                      The One Ring does come into play later in The Silmarillion, so you are not too
                                      far OT!

                                      LOL

                                      Matt West




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