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RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Gustavo | sum & nomina

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  • Jack
    Romani ite domo! Right - that s enough blooming Latin. And you can lay off the Quenya as well. ... Jack _____ From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 31, 2006
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      Romani ite domo!

       

      Right – that’s enough blooming Latin.

      And you can lay off the Quenya as well.

      :o)

      Jack

       


      From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Nick Xylas
      Romanes Aeunt Domum!

      Jack <jack@telaservices. co.uk> wrote:

      Oy!

      Don’t forget the vocative!

      Bellum Bellum Bellum Belli Bello Bello !

      :o)

      Jack


      From: TolkienDiscussions@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: TolkienDiscussions@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Gustavo
      If anyone wish to keep rosa, please, do keep it in the whole: rosa,
      rosam, rosae, rosae, rosa . This makes sense.


       

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    • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
      Hello Gustavo and Fea, I thought that the two of you might find this link interesting: http://www.gaeliccollege.edu/index.php If you are ever in my neck of the
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 5, 2007
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        Hello Gustavo and Fea,

        I thought that the two of you might find this link interesting:

        http://www.gaeliccollege.edu/index.php

        If you are ever in my neck of the world, check it out. The Gaelic College is in
        a beautiful (almost Tolkienesque) location. If you are a hiker, as I am, hiking
        in the forests and highlands of Cape Breton Island is what I imagine it would be
        like to be walking in Tol Eressëa.

        Matt West

        NP: Dil Mai Durad - TJ Rehmi (Mera Therapy)


        Quoting Fea <Fea@...>:

        > Thanks for the offer but I'm sorry to inform you that the Irish language is
        > mostly a romantic notion by people who don't speak it. Living here is a
        > different matter. As children it is practically forced on us in the most
        > boring way you could imagine. We are drilled in verbs for years from the age
        > of 4 before we can put a couple of words together by which time we hate the
        > language with a passion.
        >
        > Which of course is really sad because as a result, the language is dying and
        > now there are small areas around Ireland who are grasping at straws to
        > develop communities who are only Irish speaking. The majority of Irish
        > people, can't speak a word of it which is a major pain in the rear end when
        > you have kids coming home with Irish homework and all it does is bring back
        > horrific memories of nuns and brothers beating it into the older generations.
        > A terrible result but there you have it. Have I dashed your hopes? I
        > apologise if I have but its better that you know the truth of it.
        >
        > If this is way off topic, I apologise to the group and will get the
        > conversation back on track. Gustavo, if you want to continue this thread of
        > chat with me, please feel free to ask whatever you want. I also thank you
        > for your offer on the Silmarillion and I just might take you up on that....
        >
        > Fea.





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      • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
        The Silmarillion was my door to Tolkien s world. I had tried reading LotR and The Hobbit in my 20 s, but just couldn t get into them. I started and stopped
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 5, 2007
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          The Silmarillion was my door to Tolkien's world. I had tried reading LotR and
          The Hobbit in my 20's, but just couldn't get into them. I started and stopped
          them many times before giving up.

          When I heard that PJ was going to make a movie of LotR, I knew I had to read the
          books before seeing the movie, or the movie would forever colour my view of the
          books. I did some research on Tolkien and discovered that The Silmarillion is
          the foundation of all the other writings of Middle Earth. I decided to start
          with this book.

          For me, it was the perfect place to begin. It took me almost a year to read as I
          made notes throughout and kept jumping to the appendix to keep all the people
          and places straight in my mind. This was a most satisfying task!! I absolutely
          fell in love with this book as I slowly made my way through it.

          The Hobbit, LotR, and Book of Lost Tales (parts 1&2) were easy and quick reads
          after spending all that time grasping The Silmarillion!!

          I think the secret with The Silmarillion is not to read it, but to STUDY it!
          Then you will find the genius and the excitement in this work.

          I am now back to The Silmarillion again, studying it once more!

          Matt West



          Quoting Gustavo <g.olivieri@...>:

          > It's odd that so many people have problems in reading 'Silm.' Maybe it
          > came easy with me because I was young, and had no previous religion.
          > (I see people comparing 'Silm.' with religious texts; it's certainly
          > mythologic...)
          >
          > One thing that I always liked in mythology and mythic structures and
          > myth itself (as "logos", word, narrative) was the ways I had to put
          > the components of it in trees and schemes.
          >
          > We have a group of gods in the first chapters. It was only a few days
          > ago that I wrote their names in the relation they have with each
          > other, for some reason I don't remember very well, right now.
          >
          > (I use evish myth because I write stories for role-playing... Not only
          > in R. Tolkien's countrysides :^)
          >
          > (But in Middle-Earth too.)
          >
          > There's lots of trees of hobbits, of men, of elves and even of
          > dwarves, but one thing that may make people to be a bit confused about
          > the "gods" of Middle-Earth possibly comes to be related to the fact
          > that the valar-characters aren't one family, not at least as much
          > complex as some brothers and sisters, and some husbands and wives.
          >
          > (In this way, it's easier than Greek myth(s) of gods, for example.)
          >
          >





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        • Rob
          I agree
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 5, 2007
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            <<I think the secret with The Silmarillion is not to read it, but to STUDY
            it!
            Then you will find the genius and the excitement in this work.>>

            I agree completely. Tolkien really took care of most every kind of reader
            with his works. The Hobbit can be read by children. The LOTR can be read by
            the literary scholar and non-scholar alike (and bright kids, too!). The
            other works have a great appeal to those readers who like scholarly pursuits
            (something evident in the HoME series, a series many Tolkien fans simply
            look on as useless or explotative, but which are really my favorites these
            days).

            Thing is, there really is enough material out there that The Silmarillion
            could have been published in a much fuller form than we currently have. CT
            has talked about maybe someday re-editing the Silmarillion work. I'd like to
            see it, personally.

            Rob
          • Jack
            Coming in the Spring - the tale of Turin Turambar, full length version edited by C Tolkien ... Jack _____ From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 5, 2007
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              Coming in the Spring – the tale of Turin Turambar, full length version edited by C Tolkien

              :o)

              Jack

               


              From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rob
              Sent: 05 January 2007 21:22
              To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Gustavo

               

              <<I think the secret with The Silmarillion is not to read it, but to STUDY
              it!
              Then you will find the genius and the excitement in this work.>>

              I agree completely. Tolkien really took care of most every kind of reader
              with his works. The Hobbit can be read by children. The LOTR can be read by
              the literary scholar and non-scholar alike (and bright kids, too!). The
              other works have a great appeal to those readers who like scholarly pursuits
              (something evident in the HoME series, a series many Tolkien fans simply
              look on as useless or explotative, but which are really my favorites these
              days).

              Thing is, there really is enough material out there that The Silmarillion
              could have been published in a much fuller form than we currently have. CT
              has talked about maybe someday re-editing the Silmarillion work. I'd like to
              see it, personally.

              Rob

            • Rob
              Yeah, I m looking forward to it. OTOH, I do feel like, though I
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 5, 2007
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                <<Coming in the Spring - the tale of Turin Turambar, full length version
                edited by C Tolkien>>

                Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

                OTOH, I do feel like, though I like the tales, the tale of Turin and Beren
                and Luthien took up WAY too much of the professor's time and creative
                thought. He reworked these two tales so many times it is almost laughable.
                Meanwhile, the tale of Earendel - a tale central to the world's history -
                barely even exists.

                The professor's niggling could certainly be an annoyance from this
                perspective.

                Fortunately, from others it gave us a work of genius. But I still lament the
                lack of a truly finished, cohesive Silmarillion straight from JRR.

                Rob
              • Gustavo
                Adults, begin from Silmarillion ; children, begin from The Hobbit :^)) KIDDING -- It s interesting how each of us have our own histories with the books. It
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 5, 2007
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                  Adults, begin from "Silmarillion"; children, begin from 'The
                  Hobbit' :^))

                  KIDDING --

                  It's interesting how each of us have our own histories with the
                  books.

                  It makes sense that 'The Silmarillion', as many other things (...
                  not all of them, but many), are good when someone stops to
                  understand them.

                  In case of R. T.'s work, it's very .. like a puzzle, all right!,
                  those 10.000 tiny pieces all mixed up. Then you, as you join things,
                  it seems to be a beautiful picture. (I say like this because I
                  didn't read all of HoME; only BoLT 2, and bits of others.)


                  --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, tea_party@... wrote:
                  >
                  > The Silmarillion was my door to Tolkien's world. I had tried
                  reading LotR and
                  > The Hobbit in my 20's, but just couldn't get into them. I started
                  and stopped
                  > them many times before giving up.
                  >
                  > When I heard that PJ was going to make a movie of LotR, I knew I
                  had to read the
                  > books before seeing the movie, or the movie would forever colour
                  my view of the
                  > books. I did some research on Tolkien and discovered that The
                  Silmarillion is
                  > the foundation of all the other writings of Middle Earth. I
                  decided to start
                  > with this book.
                  >
                  > For me, it was the perfect place to begin. It took me almost a
                  year to read as I
                  > made notes throughout and kept jumping to the appendix to keep all
                  the people
                  > and places straight in my mind. This was a most satisfying task!!
                  I absolutely
                  > fell in love with this book as I slowly made my way through it.
                  >
                  > The Hobbit, LotR, and Book of Lost Tales (parts 1&2) were easy and
                  quick reads
                  > after spending all that time grasping The Silmarillion!!
                  >
                  > I think the secret with The Silmarillion is not to read it, but to
                  STUDY it!
                  > Then you will find the genius and the excitement in this work.
                  >
                  > I am now back to The Silmarillion again, studying it once more!
                  >
                  > Matt West
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Quoting Gustavo <g.olivieri@...>:
                  >
                  > > It's odd that so many people have problems in reading 'Silm.'
                  Maybe it
                  > > came easy with me because I was young, and had no previous (...)
                • Jack
                  He rarely finished anything. Even when LOTR was published, he continued to make changes for subsequent editions. Annoying, but it s the antidote to the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 6, 2007
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                    He rarely finished anything.  Even when LOTR was published, he continued to make changes for subsequent editions. 

                     

                    Annoying, but it’s the antidote to the potboiler novel when one comes out every year.

                     

                    Regards

                    Jack

                     


                    From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rob

                    OTOH, I do feel like, though I like the tales, the tale of Turin and Beren
                    and Luthien took up WAY too much of the professor's time and creative
                    thought. He reworked these two tales so many times it is almost laughable.
                    Meanwhile, the tale of Earendel - a tale central to the world's history -
                    barely even exists.

                    The professor's niggling could certainly be an annoyance from this
                    perspective.

                    Fortunately, from others it gave us a work of genius. But I still lament the
                    lack of a truly finished, cohesive Silmarillion straight from JRR.

                    Rob

                  • Rob
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 6, 2007
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                      <<He rarely finished anything. Even when LOTR was published, he continued
                      to make changes for subsequent editions.

                      Annoying, but it's the antidote to the potboiler novel when one comes out
                      every year.

                      Regards

                      Jack>>

                      Hilarious how synchronicity finds you. On another author list I belong to,
                      we are just now (again) discussing how the beloved author has degenerated
                      into a once-a-year novel of his character whether there is any actual
                      inspiration, craft by the author outside of what he can spout off with no
                      effort, or anything to say that is interesting! It is sad that a once great
                      novelist would feel the need to cheapen his work just in order to put a book
                      on the shelves (especially when the writer has two other characters he
                      writes series about each year, so it is not like anyone is starving for a
                      book from him!).

                      Rob
                    • Jack
                      Very Koestlerian ... Jack _____ From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 7, 2007
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                        Very Koestlerian

                        :o)

                        Jack

                         


                        From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rob

                        <<He rarely finished anything. Even when LOTR was published, he continued
                        to make changes for subsequent editions.

                        Annoying, but it's the antidote to the potboiler novel when one comes out
                        every year.

                        Regards

                        Jack>>

                        Hilarious how synchronicity finds you. On another author list I belong to,
                        we are just now (again) discussing how the beloved author has degenerated
                        into a once-a-year novel of his character whether there is any actual
                        inspiration, craft by the author outside of what he can spout off with no
                        effort, or anything to say that is interesting! It is sad that a once great
                        novelist would feel the need to cheapen his work just in order to put a book
                        on the shelves (especially when the writer has two other characters he
                        writes series about each year, so it is not like anyone is starving for a
                        book from him!).

                        Rob

                      • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
                        ... Túrin and Beren & Lúthien are stories that were near and dear to JRRT. Lúthien was modelled on his wife, and so he took great care throughout his life
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 9, 2007
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                          Quoting Rob <fredwestermeyer@...>:

                          > <<Coming in the Spring - the tale of Turin Turambar, full length version
                          > edited by C Tolkien>>
                          >
                          > Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
                          >
                          > OTOH, I do feel like, though I like the tales, the tale of Turin and Beren
                          > and Luthien took up WAY too much of the professor's time and creative
                          > thought. He reworked these two tales so many times it is almost laughable.
                          > Meanwhile, the tale of Earendel - a tale central to the world's history -
                          > barely even exists.

                          Túrin and Beren & Lúthien are stories that were near and dear to JRRT. Lúthien
                          was modelled on his wife, and so he took great care throughout his life to
                          modify and improve that tale. The Tale of Túrin Turambar seems to be the central
                          story of his mythology. Both these stories he began writing very early on. He
                          kept modifying them as his universe unfolded and became more realized.

                          Based on what I read in Book of Lost Tales 2, JRRT wrote several versions and
                          outlines for the tale Eärendil, but was not able to decide how it fit into his
                          overall mythology. There are many rejected ideas contained in BoLT2 if you are
                          interested in what he was thinking. Having read those ideas, I can see why none
                          were developed and why we have only the brief account given in The Silmarillion.
                          Perhaps, given another decade or so, JRRT would have solved the dilemma he was
                          obviously having and come to a satisfactory version of the tale. Given the
                          alternative that are contained within BoLT2, I would have to say that I prefer
                          the sketchy tale in The Silmarillion. It serves to heighten the mystery of Eärendil.



                          > The professor's niggling could certainly be an annoyance from this
                          > perspective.

                          Really he just ran out of time. I think his niggling only made the tales better.


                          > Fortunately, from others it gave us a work of genius. But I still lament the
                          > lack of a truly finished, cohesive Silmarillion straight from JRR.

                          As long as his life was, it was all too brief for what he had hoped to
                          accomplish. Such is the fate of humans. If only he had a bit more of the blood
                          of Númenor in him!

                          Matt West




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                        • Rob
                          That is correct. My point was simply that though I do love these tales, and I love
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 9, 2007
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                            <<Túrin and Beren & Lúthien are stories that were near and dear to JRRT.>>

                            That is correct. My point was simply that though I do love these tales, and
                            I love having different versions of them that really fill out the tales, I
                            regret that re-doing these tales so much took time away from JRR being able
                            to whip the whole of the Silmarillion canon into a fully realized story that
                            could stand on its own as the LOTR does.

                            It is honestly inconceivable to me how it is that his publishers, after the
                            smaching successes of The Hobbit and the LOTR didn't give JRR the green
                            light for the Silmarillion material and what's more, give him enough money
                            to make him writing full time economically possible (so he could teach when
                            and what he wanted and write FT).

                            So it is a confluence of events that conspired to keep the Silmarillion
                            material dormant. OTOH, we may not have the History of Middle Earth series
                            if JRR had been able to finish. (Then again, seeing as how the Tolkiens,
                            like George Lucas, seem so willing and able to repackage in order to get us
                            to re-buy so often, maybe we'd have had both!)

                            <<I think his niggling only made the tales better.>>

                            I agree. That is the upside of it. The downside is as I mentioned (and which
                            he also seemed to acknowledged in "Leaf by Niggle" which I would argue is
                            meant to stand as an allegory to Tolkien's own writing of his mythology).

                            <<If only he had a bit more of the blood
                            of Númenor in him!>>

                            I agree. :(

                            Rob
                          • Jack
                            So much so that their gravestone is engraved Beren and Lúthien Regards Jack _____ From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 9, 2007
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                              So much so that their gravestone is engraved Beren and Lúthien

                              Regards

                              Jack

                               


                              From: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tea_party@...
                              Beren & Lúthien are stories that were near and dear to JRRT. Lúthien
                              was modelled on his wife, and so he took great care throughout his life to
                              modify and improve that tale.

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