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Tolkien works

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  • whiteladyofrohan@aol.com
    Can someone enlighten me? Where does the Complete History of Middle Earth Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 fit into the History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 through
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 1, 2006
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      Can someone enlighten me?  Where does the Complete History of Middle Earth Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 fit into the History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 through 12?  Or does it not?  Are these three books outside the HOME series?  Also, is Unfinished Tales the same thing you'd find in The Book of Lost Tales 1 and 2 (aka The History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 and 2)?
       
      Final question:  The History of Middle Earth Volume 6 is subtitled, The Return of the Shadow, the histories of the Lord of the Rings, Part 1.  Is there a Part 2 or is The Lord of the Rings considered Part 2?
       
      Thank you!
      Debbie
       
      "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
    • Gary Bellinger
      Don t know about the first question but there are actually 4 parts. Part 2 of the histories Lord of the Rings is The Treason of Isengard, which is Volume 7
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 1, 2006
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        Don't know about the first question but there are actually 4 parts. Part 2 of 'the histories Lord of the Rings' is The Treason of Isengard, which is Volume 7 of the History of Middle Earth series. Part 3 is Vol. 8, The War of the Ring while Part 4 is Vol. 9, Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age.
         
        Volume 1: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 1
        Volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2
        Volume 3:The Lays of Beleriand
        Volume 4:The Shaping of Middle Earth
        Volume 5: The Lost Road
        Volume 6: The Return of the Shadow - The History of Middle Earth, Part 1
        Volume 7: The Treason of Isengard - The History of Middle Earth, Part 2
        Volume 8: The War of the Ring -  - The History of Middle Earth, Part 3
        Volume 9: Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age - The History of Middle Earth, Part 4
        Volume 10: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Silmarillion, Part 1
        Volume 11: The War of the Jewels - The Later Silmarillion, Part 2
        Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle Earth
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:46 AM
        Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Tolkien works

        Can someone enlighten me?  Where does the Complete History of Middle Earth Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 fit into the History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 through 12?  Or does it not?  Are these three books outside the HOME series?  Also, is Unfinished Tales the same thing you'd find in The Book of Lost Tales 1 and 2 (aka The History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 and 2)?
         
        Final question:  The History of Middle Earth Volume 6 is subtitled, The Return of the Shadow, the histories of the Lord of the Rings, Part 1.  Is there a Part 2 or is The Lord of the Rings considered Part 2?
         
        Thank you!
        Debbie
         
        "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
      • tea_party@ourbrisbane.com
        I think I can answer the other part as I am just finishing reading the two Book of Lost Tales and am also in the middle of The Silmarillion for the second
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 1, 2006
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          I think I can answer the other part as I am just finishing reading the two 'Book
          of Lost Tales' and am also in the middle of The Silmarillion for the second time.

          'Unfinished Tales' and 'The Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2' are overlapping earlier
          drafts of 'The Silmarillion'. They contain earlier, previously unpublished
          drafts of the tales told in 'The Silmarillion'. The drafts are usually longer
          and more detailed than the final versions that made it into 'The Silmarillion'.
          Tolkien removed a lot of detail and changed many events, names, and characters
          in his final drafts of these stories.

          Matt West



          Quoting Gary Bellinger <yesgaz@...>:

          > Don't know about the first question but there are actually 4 parts. Part 2 of
          > 'the histories Lord of the Rings' is The Treason of Isengard, which is Volume
          > 7 of the History of Middle Earth series. Part 3 is Vol. 8, The War of the
          > Ring while Part 4 is Vol. 9, Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age.
          >
          > Volume 1: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 1
          > Volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2
          > Volume 3:The Lays of Beleriand
          > Volume 4:The Shaping of Middle Earth
          > Volume 5: The Lost Road
          > Volume 6: The Return of the Shadow - The History of Middle Earth, Part 1
          > Volume 7: The Treason of Isengard - The History of Middle Earth, Part 2
          > Volume 8: The War of the Ring - - The History of Middle Earth, Part 3
          > Volume 9: Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age - The History of Middle
          > Earth, Part 4
          > Volume 10: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Silmarillion, Part 1
          > Volume 11: The War of the Jewels - The Later Silmarillion, Part 2
          > Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle Earth
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: whiteladyofrohan@...
          > To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:46 AM
          > Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Tolkien works
          >
          >
          > Can someone enlighten me? Where does the Complete History of Middle Earth
          > Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 fit into the History of Middle Earth Volumes 1
          > through 12? Or does it not? Are these three books outside the HOME series?
          > Also, is Unfinished Tales the same thing you'd find in The Book of Lost Tales
          > 1 and 2 (aka The History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 and 2)?
          >
          > Final question: The History of Middle Earth Volume 6 is subtitled, The
          > Return of the Shadow, the histories of the Lord of the Rings, Part 1. Is
          > there a Part 2 or is The Lord of the Rings considered Part 2?
          >
          > Thank you!
          > Debbie
          >
          > "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
          > atrocities." -- Voltaire
          >





          -------------------------------------------
          Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
        • Rob
          1) I believe the Complete History of Middle Earth Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 are merely a three volume collection of the original 12 part History of Middle
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 1, 2006
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            RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Tolkien works

            1) I believe the "Complete History of Middle Earth Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3" are merely a three volume collection of the original 12 part History of Middle Earth series. They printed a really nice (collectible) 3 volume collection after all 12 of the series had come out. I think Christopher Tolkien may have done some slight re-editing of earlier volumes based on things he learned after writing the later volumes of the series. These things sell for a pretty penny, though, so if you have one or can get it cheap you're a lucky stiff.

            2) Gary lists the original 12 part series and their titles correctly except for he accidentally misnamed the 4 volumes that deal with the History of the Lord of the Rings (the subset Debbie was asking about originally). The correct titles are:

            Volume 1: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 1
            Volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2
            Volume 3: The Lays of Beleriand
            Volume 4: The Shaping of Middle Earth
            Volume 5: The Lost Road
            Volume 6: The Return of the Shadow: The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part 1
            Volume 7: The Treason of Isengard - The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part 2
            Volume 8: The War of the Ring - The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part 3
            Volume 9: Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age - The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part 4
            Volume 10: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Silmarillion, Part 1
            Volume 11: The War of the Jewels - The Later Silmarillion, Part 2
            Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle Earth

            The four-part subset would be the volumes most likely of interest to readers who have only read LotR and not Tolkien's other works.

            The 12 part series as a whole, though, to my mind is simply fascinating all the way around and are each very fun reads chock full of interesting detail.

            "Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle Earth" is very similar in style to the History of Middle Earth series, so if you have that book you'll know what the HoME series is like. "Unfinished Tales" is sort of the precursor to the HoME series. I assume Christopher, after putting out the UT book, later decided a full-blown series dealing with all the unfinished or differing versions of material JRR left was in order. To my mind, UT ought to go the way of the dodo and all the material be put into its proper place in the HoME books. But that would mean one less book to sell and that would never fly! Never!

            Rob

          • Gustavo
            ... subtitled, The ... 1. Is there a ... As master Bellinger said, and his scheme was very clear!, this is HoME: Volume 1: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 1
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 1, 2006
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              --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, whiteladyofrohan@...
              wrote:
              >
              > Final question: The History of Middle Earth Volume 6 is
              subtitled, The
              > Return of the Shadow, the histories of the Lord of the Rings, Part
              1. Is there a
              > Part 2 or is The Lord of the Rings considered Part 2?
              >


              As master Bellinger said, and his scheme was very clear!, this is
              HoME:

              Volume 1: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 1
              Volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2
              Volume 3:The Lays of Beleriand
              Volume 4:The Shaping of Middle Earth
              Volume 5: The Lost Road
              Volume 6: The Return of the Shadow - The History of Middle Earth,
              Part 1
              Volume 7: The Treason of Isengard - The History of Middle Earth,
              Part 2
              Volume 8: The War of the Ring - - The History of Middle Earth, Part
              3
              Volume 9: Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age - The History of
              Middle Earth, Part 4
              Volume 10: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Silmarillion, Part 1
              Volume 11: The War of the Jewels - The Later Silmarillion, Part 2
              Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle Earth


              > Can someone enlighten me? Where does the Complete History of
              Middle Earth
              > Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 fit into the History of Middle Earth
              Volumes 1
              > through 12? Or does it not? Are these three books outside the
              HOME series?
              > Also, is Unfinished Tales the same thing you'd find in The Book
              of Lost Tales 1
              > and 2 (aka The History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 and 2)?
              >


              I've read The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales. I haven't read all
              HoME, but only BoLT2, and set eyes and hands on Lays of Beleriand...

              (I can hardly believe that, for... whatever matters, I have burnt it
              all!... But it happened. Now I have to buy it all again, and I have
              no money... But that's... say... well: I'll survive. Someday,
              anyway...)

              In what concerns Unfinished Tales and BoLT1, I can't say, for I had
              never had chance to put hands or eyes on BoLT1, but, having read
              vol. 2, it doesn't make sense to me. If I'm not mistaken -- for I
              remember slightly having put hands once on BoLT1, it tells stories
              of the Silmarillion... (?)

              Unfinished Tales and Book of Lost Tales II are definitely not the
              same thing.


              SILMARILLION & UNFINISHED TALES

              Silmarillion & Unfinished Tales are a series apart from HoME.

              One can read only Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit and the
              Lord of the Rings to have Ages before the Sun, and Ages I, II and
              III of the Sun.

              Silmarillion tell stories of elven-lore of first age, and a bit of
              second age.

              Unfinished Tales brings part of first age, plenty of second age, and
              a bit of third age.

              Silmarillion, however, is more lore-shaped, while Unfinished Tales
              is more in the style of the appendices of LotR. It's kind of text is
              more like scientific text. Different from Silmarillion.

              (And The Hobbit and LotR are modern epic, which they call novel, or
              something like.)

              By lore I mean mythic. This is why even Gilgamesh came up, in the
              last discussions... It also has a bit to do with the Torah of the
              Hebrews and the first Books-of-the-Prophets (Neviim)*, and Greek
              epics Ilias, Odysseia.

              This is, also, -- maybe -- one reason why many people find
              Silmarillion, as well as the Patriarchs of the Hebrews ("genesis")
              boring books to read, and versions of the Greek epics in verse. (As
              well as Gilgamesh.)

              Usually, one strong reason for people to find it hard to read these
              texts is not to have a reason to do it, other than the will of
              knowledge of them. This is, also, the reason why lists like these
              exist. (As well as the Britannica! :^)

              SOME IDEAS
              'Have others, but I'll spare you of them, right now.


              Gustavo
              a Classicist ... without a pipe. Sorry.

              (Modern Classicists use other things, different from smoke-making
              wood-tools. I use the mandolin. It doesn't make smoke, but sound.
              Like an ainu... :^)


              Only one post-scriptum. I almost forgot The Adventures of Tom
              Bombadil, which someone in this list likes very much, in the
              religious feature of his thesis on the R. Tolkien's demiurge (...).
              Together with Unfinished Tales (third part) The Hobbit and LotR, it
              makes a good picture of the III Age of the Sun, in its whole.

              _

              *Joshua, the judges, Samuel, Natan, Eliah, Eliah's disciple (don't
              know his name in English...); different from the style of the rest
              of the Neviim: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the 12, except Hagai;
              Daniel, for most modern Hebrews, doesn't make part of the Prophets.)
            • whiteladyofrohan@aol.com
              I ve always considered the 12 volume set to be a bit daunting and, as I only own volumes 1 thru 5 (in paperback), I might be more likely to tackle the
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 2, 2006
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                I've always considered the 12 volume set to be a bit daunting and, as I only own volumes 1 thru 5 (in paperback), I might be more likely to tackle the Complete History of Middle Earth if, as you say, they are a compendium of the HoME series.
                 
                As regarding cost, I recently found the HoME series, all first editions, available on eBay (Buy it Now) for $4500.  And while that would be oh-so-lovely to own, it's a bit out of reach for me.  OTOH, the Complete History of Middle Earth series can be bought for $70 to $100 per volume, which is a tad more doable.
                 
                Debbie
                 
                In a message dated 11/1/2006 9:13:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, fredwestermeyer@... writes:
                1) I believe the "Complete History of Middle Earth Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3" are merely a three volume collection of the original 12 part History of Middle Earth series. They printed a really nice (collectible) 3 volume collection after all 12 of the series had come out. I think Christopher Tolkien may have done some slight re-editing of earlier volumes based on things he learned after writing the later volumes of the series. These things sell for a pretty penny, though, so if you have one or can get it cheap you're a lucky stiff.
                 
                 
              • Gary Bellinger
                As far as the 12 volume HOME series, I have volumes 1-7, 10 and 12. Some of the books are a little more tattered than most but to me that they are well worn
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 2, 2006
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                  As far as the 12 volume HOME series, I have volumes 1-7, 10 and 12. Some of the books are a little more tattered than most but to me that they are well worn means to me that they have been a great companion. To pay $4500 for the set is not necessary to my enjoyment or knowledge of Tolkien and his works.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:23 AM
                  Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Tolkien works

                  I've always considered the 12 volume set to be a bit daunting and, as I only own volumes 1 thru 5 (in paperback), I might be more likely to tackle the Complete History of Middle Earth if, as you say, they are a compendium of the HoME series.
                   
                  As regarding cost, I recently found the HoME series, all first editions, available on eBay (Buy it Now) for $4500.  And while that would be oh-so-lovely to own, it's a bit out of reach for me.  OTOH, the Complete History of Middle Earth series can be bought for $70 to $100 per volume, which is a tad more doable.
                   
                  Debbie
                   
                  In a message dated 11/1/2006 9:13:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, fredwestermeyer@... writes:
                  1) I believe the "Complete History of Middle Earth Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3" are merely a three volume collection of the original 12 part History of Middle Earth series. They printed a really nice (collectible) 3 volume collection after all 12 of the series had come out. I think Christopher Tolkien may have done some slight re-editing of earlier volumes based on things he learned after writing the later volumes of the series. These things sell for a pretty penny, though, so if you have one or can get it cheap you're a lucky stiff.
                   
                   
                • whiteladyofrohan@aol.com
                  Oh I agree -- but it would just be SO cool to own them :-D In a message dated 11/2/2006 7:06:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, yesgaz@itcanada.com writes: As far
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 2, 2006
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                    Oh I agree -- but it would just be SO cool to own them :-D
                     
                    In a message dated 11/2/2006 7:06:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, yesgaz@... writes:
                    As far as the 12 volume HOME series, I have volumes 1-7, 10 and 12. Some of the books are a little more tattered than most but to me that they are well worn means to me that they have been a great companion. To pay $4500 for the set is not necessary to my enjoyment or knowledge of Tolkien and his works.
                     
                     
                  • Rob
                    I do. :) Yep, I have all hardcover first editions. American, though, not British. A few of mine
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 2, 2006
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                      <<Oh I agree -- but it would just be SO cool to own them :-D>>

                      I do. :)

                      Yep, I have all hardcover first editions. American, though, not British. A
                      few of mine are the British editions, though. As my friend said when I
                      bought the British volumes (III and XII, btw) "Yeah, but soon you'll be
                      looking at them on the shelf and then feel obligated to buy all the other
                      volumes so as to have complete American AND British sets." He's right!
                      But... not yet.

                      Regardless, I can't see anyone paying $4500 for the set! You could get them
                      easily for $200 each, I'd think (and probably a lot less for the later
                      ones).

                      Now, what I'd like to have is a first edition LotR!!!

                      Irrespective of any of that, I really enjoy the HoME series, though I've
                      only read the first three and the four volumes dealing with the LotR.

                      Rob
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