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RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Why Gollum had to die...

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  • Jack
    Gandalf explains that you need a lot of practice and a very strong will, used to dominating others, to control the ring The ring was forged in Mount Doom -
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 2, 2005
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      Gandalf explains that you need a lot of practice and a very strong will,
      used to dominating others, to control the ring

      The ring was forged in Mount Doom - it's the only place where it can be
      unmade

      I expect that Gollum would have jumped in after him. But I don't think that
      Frodo would have realised that - the ring had been working on his mind for
      months and was acting to protect itself from harm


      :o)
      Jack
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Morjuc [mailto:morjuc@...]
      What you're saying is really intersting, but I'm just having
      troubles following it, sorry. Could you help me out?
      One thing thats confusing me: since Sauron put so much of his power
      in the one ring, wouldn't the ringbearer have a slight power to
      influence the Nazgul if he/she claimed it for themself? Also,
      Gollum killing himself with the ring, is that in the cracks of doom
      so the ring gets destroyed too, or would the ring still be there?

      Out of curiosity, what would gollum have done if Frodo had realized
      that seizing the ring was futile and had cast himself into the fire?
    • ethiercn@aol.com
      Tolkien wrote in one his letters that if Frodo had taken the ring, the Nazgul would have appeared and let him think he was controling them. They would appear
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 3, 2005
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        Tolkien wrote in one his letters that if Frodo had taken the ring, the Nazgul
        would have appeared and let him think he was controling them. They would
        appear to follow him so they could take the Ring or hold onto Frodo until the
        Dark Lord came.

        Chris



        a message dated 3/3/2005 12:59:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, morjuc@...
        writes:
        What you're saying is really intersting, but I'm just having
        troubles following it, sorry. Could you help me out?
        One thing thats confusing me: since Sauron put so much of his power
        in the one ring, wouldn't the ringbearer have a slight power to
        influence the Nazgul if he/she claimed it for themself? Also,
        Gollum killing himself with the ring, is that in the cracks of doom
        so the ring gets destroyed too, or would the ring still be there?


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • deepcoffee@yahoo.com
        There are two oaths (for lack of a better term) that seemed to indicate Gollum would die if he betrayed Frodo. 1. The oath Frodo made Gollum swear on the
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 6, 2005
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          There are two oaths (for lack of a better term) that seemed to indicate Gollum would
          die if he betrayed Frodo.

          1. The oath Frodo made Gollum swear on the Precious/Ring.

          2. And at their parting in Ithilien, Faramir said to Gollum something like, "may death
          take you if you betray Frodo."

          I think Gollum's IMMEDIATE death after stealing the Ring back had a lot to do with the
          power of oath-breaking in Tolkien's Middle Earth universe.

          I think the first oath--the one sworn on the Ring--was probably more powerful. But I
          hesitate to disregard Faramir's statement. Maybe Tolkien used Faramir's statement
          more as literary foreshadowing, and the oath on the Ring led to Gollum's quick death.

          Any thoughts?
        • Ink
          I m not saying what you are saying is wrong but didn t he betray Frodo to Shelob long before he died. On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 05:16:18 -0000, deepcoffee@yahoo.com
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 6, 2005
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            I'm not saying what you are saying is wrong but didn't he betray Frodo
            to Shelob long before he died.


            On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 05:16:18 -0000, deepcoffee@...
            <deepcoffee@...> wrote:
            >
            > There are two oaths (for lack of a better term) that seemed to indicate
            > Gollum would
            > die if he betrayed Frodo.
            >
            > 1. The oath Frodo made Gollum swear on the Precious/Ring.
            >
            > 2. And at their parting in Ithilien, Faramir said to Gollum something
            > like, "may death
            > take you if you betray Frodo."
            >
            > I think Gollum's IMMEDIATE death after stealing the Ring back had a lot to
            > do with the
            > power of oath-breaking in Tolkien's Middle Earth universe.
            >
            > I think the first oath--the one sworn on the Ring--was probably more
            > powerful. But I
            > hesitate to disregard Faramir's statement. Maybe Tolkien used Faramir's
            > statement
            > more as literary foreshadowing, and the oath on the Ring led to Gollum's
            > quick death.
            >
            > Any thoughts?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
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            "Elen sila lumenn omentilmo"
          • Maeve Carney
            ... Do you mean to say that consequences must happen immediately after the action to have meaning? Maybe Gollum didn t die straight away because he still
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 7, 2005
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              Ink wrote:
              >
              > I'm not saying what you are saying is wrong but didn't he betray Frodo
              > to Shelob long before he died.
              >

              Do you mean to say that consequences must happen immediately after the action to
              have meaning? Maybe Gollum didn't die straight away because he still hadn't
              fulfilled his function. All actions have consequences and just because a
              consequence happens later doesn't mean it isn't directly related to the earlier
              action. The betrayal of Frodo to Shelob was just another step in the
              irredeamability (is there such a word?) of Gollum.

              --

              Maeve
            • deepcoffee@yahoo.com
              ... Yes, I agree with you that the whole thing isn t neat and tidy. In Gollum s mind at least, the oath was unbroken as long as Shelob did the dirty work and
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 7, 2005
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                > I'm not saying what you are saying is wrong but didn't he betray Frodo
                > to Shelob long before he died.

                Yes, I agree with you that the whole thing isn't neat and tidy.

                In Gollum's mind at least, the oath was unbroken as long as Shelob did the dirty work
                and not Gollum himself. When Gollum snuck up behind Sam and grabbed him (this is
                when Shelob was bearing down on Frodo to sting him), Gollum said something about
                his being free to attack Sam but not "Master." A very, very nuanced technicallity.
              • Wilson, Bruce
                Exactly. Just because a poison does not kill one straightaway does not make it less of a poison if there is no antidote, or if one does not take it if there
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 7, 2005
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                  Exactly. Just because a poison does not kill one straightaway does not
                  make it less of a poison if there is no antidote, or if one does not
                  take it if there is one.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Maeve Carney [mailto:Purple1@...]
                  Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 6:13 AM
                  To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Another reason Gollum had to die...


                  Ink wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm not saying what you are saying is wrong but didn't he betray Frodo
                  > to Shelob long before he died.
                  >

                  Do you mean to say that consequences must happen immediately after the
                  action to
                  have meaning? Maybe Gollum didn't die straight away because he still
                  hadn't
                  fulfilled his function. All actions have consequences and just because
                  a
                  consequence happens later doesn't mean it isn't directly related to the
                  earlier
                  action. The betrayal of Frodo to Shelob was just another step in the
                  irredeamability (is there such a word?) of Gollum.

                  --

                  Maeve


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