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Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st battle of the ring.....

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  • Darja
    ... I ... own ... figures ... I agree completely. I think this thought (about destroying the ring freely) is going thru all the book. And even if Elrond
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 1, 2005
      "Gary Bellinger" <yesgaz@...> wrote:

      > I may be wrong and can't come up with as detailed an answer as George but
      I
      > think that the main reason that Elrond didn't force Isildur to destroy the
      > ring was that the action of destroying it had to be of the Ring Bearers
      own
      > free will, much like Gandalf or Elrond or any of the other powerful
      figures
      > in the trilogy all refused to take the ring from Frodo or Bilbo.

      I agree completely. I think this thought (about destroying the ring freely)
      is going thru all the book. And even if Elrond somehow made Isildur throw
      the ring to the fire or kill him (and I'm sure if he killed Isildur and took
      the ring, he wouldn't destroy it, yielding the temptation to possess it),
      something worse would happen afterwards.

      *Darja*
    • Gary Bellinger
      Quick thinking by Isildur then. PJ would really have had to adlib then to fill up the three movies. ;-p) Gary/Bungo ... From: Jack
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 1, 2005
        Quick thinking by Isildur then. PJ would really have had to adlib then to
        fill up the three movies.

        ;-p)
        Gary/Bungo

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jack" <jack@...>
        To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 2:58 AM
        Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st battle of
        the ring.....


        >
        > The other reason is that had Isildur destroyed the ring, the book would
        have
        > been a lot shorter...
        >
        >
        > :o)
        > Jack
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Gary Bellinger [mailto:yesgaz@...]
        > I may be wrong and can't come up with as detailed an answer as George but
        I
        > think that the main reason that Elrond didn't force Isildur to destroy the
        > ring was that the action of destroying it had to be of the Ring Bearers
        own
        > free will, much like Gandalf or Elrond or any of the other powerful
        figures
        > in the trilogy all refused to take the ring from Frodo or Bilbo.
        >
        > Or something like that.....
        >
        > >
        > > George <greekss454@...> wrote:
        > > First of all don't be afraid to say anything around here my friend...
        > > No one is going to get offended or anything, it's just an online
        > > discussion group...
        > >
        > > On the point in question, if there was one question I could ask Prof.
        > > T, yours might be it!!!
        > >
        > > Thank you for you kind reply to my post George:0) Sometimes I get
        accused
        > of thinking too much and I'm used to getting reamed for it:) Your ideas
        > were good ones though, I never thought of the ring possibly affecting Lord
        > Elrond. The elves seem so perfect that you forget they can be corrupted,
        it
        > makes me think of Galadriel fighting to resist the ring and she was one of
        > the oldest elves in middle earth! I guess elrond disappointed me a bit
        with
        > his "men are weak" speech to gandalf. Maybe he forgot how powerful the
        ring
        > was. I was thinking "If you are so high and mighty why don't YOU go
        destroy
        > the ring?" My sisters were laughing at me because I got so into the
        movie.
        > I have only read the book once, I need to read it again. I'm more
        familiar
        > with the movie version than the book version, but I'm hoping to get to
        > reading LOTR again soon!
        > >
        > > Dana
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > .·´¨¨)) -:¦:-
        > > ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
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      • Ink
        Think about it, if he killed Isildur he would the take the ring and because he killed him for the ring he would keep it. On the other hand if he manged to
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 1, 2005
          Think about it, if he killed Isildur he would the take the ring and
          because he killed him "for the ring" he would keep it. On the other
          hand if he manged to throw the ring in with out outright killing him
          then he would have been destroyed by losing the ring without it being
          he own will.

          So without Isildur willing to destroy the ring the only way it could
          be destroyed would be the kill or break isildur's mind. Elrond being
          foresighted would not want the last of the line to be lost. ( I think
          he was the last of his line at this time)


          On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:27:14 -0500, Gary Bellinger <yesgaz@...> wrote:
          > Quick thinking by Isildur then. PJ would really have had to adlib then to
          > fill up the three movies.
          >
          > ;-p)
          > Gary/Bungo
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Jack" <jack@...>
          > To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 2:58 AM
          > Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st battle of
          > the ring.....
          >
          >
          > >
          > > The other reason is that had Isildur destroyed the ring, the book would
          > have
          > > been a lot shorter...
          > >
          > >
          > > :o)
          > > Jack
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Gary Bellinger [mailto:yesgaz@...]
          > > I may be wrong and can't come up with as detailed an answer as George but
          > I
          > > think that the main reason that Elrond didn't force Isildur to destroy the
          > > ring was that the action of destroying it had to be of the Ring Bearers
          > own
          > > free will, much like Gandalf or Elrond or any of the other powerful
          > figures
          > > in the trilogy all refused to take the ring from Frodo or Bilbo.
          > >
          > > Or something like that.....
          > >
          > > >
          > > > George <greekss454@...> wrote:
          > > > First of all don't be afraid to say anything around here my friend...
          > > > No one is going to get offended or anything, it's just an online
          > > > discussion group...
          > > >
          > > > On the point in question, if there was one question I could ask Prof.
          > > > T, yours might be it!!!
          > > >
          > > > Thank you for you kind reply to my post George:0) Sometimes I get
          > accused
          > > of thinking too much and I'm used to getting reamed for it:) Your ideas
          > > were good ones though, I never thought of the ring possibly affecting Lord
          > > Elrond. The elves seem so perfect that you forget they can be corrupted,
          > it
          > > makes me think of Galadriel fighting to resist the ring and she was one of
          > > the oldest elves in middle earth! I guess elrond disappointed me a bit
          > with
          > > his "men are weak" speech to gandalf. Maybe he forgot how powerful the
          > ring
          > > was. I was thinking "If you are so high and mighty why don't YOU go
          > destroy
          > > the ring?" My sisters were laughing at me because I got so into the
          > movie.
          > > I have only read the book once, I need to read it again. I'm more
          > familiar
          > > with the movie version than the book version, but I'm hoping to get to
          > > reading LOTR again soon!
          > > >
          > > > Dana
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > .·´¨¨)) -:¦:-
          > > > ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
          > > > ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ Dana Johns -:¦:-
          > > > -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´-:¦:- Erunanethiel@...
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
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          > > >
          > > >
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          > > >
          > > >
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          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
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          > > >
          > > > __________________________________________________
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          --
          "Elen sila lumenn omentilmo"
        • Ronn! Blankenship
          ... That was my answer, too . . . :) --Ronn! :)
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 1, 2005
            At 01:58 AM Tuesday 3/1/2005, Jack wrote:

            >The other reason is that had Isildur destroyed the ring, the book would have
            >been a lot shorter...


            That was my answer, too . . . :)



            --Ronn! :)
          • ethiercn@aol.com
            In a message dated 3/1/2005 3:01:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... from the hand of your defeated enemy. You think he shouldn t. ... At least not if you are a
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 1, 2005
              In a message dated 3/1/2005 3:01:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
              jack@... writes:
              >>You have just won a battle. Your friend and ally takes something valuable
              from the hand of your defeated enemy. You think he shouldn't.

              >>>So - do you turn on your friend and ally and kill him?

              >>>>I don't think so




              At least not if you are a "good" guy or elf.


              But is it a good question. Perhaps Elrond thought he wouldn't be able to
              defeat his buddy without killing him?
              I like the Ringbearer point.



              Chris


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dana Johns
              Gary Bellinger wrote: I may be wrong and can t come up with as detailed an answer as George but I think that the main reason that Elrond
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 1, 2005
                Gary Bellinger <yesgaz@...> wrote:
                I may be wrong and can't come up with as detailed an answer as George but I
                think that the main reason that Elrond didn't force Isildur to destroy the
                ring was that the action of destroying it had to be of the Ring Bearers own
                free will, much like Gandalf or Elrond or any of the other powerful figures
                in the trilogy all refused to take the ring from Frodo or Bilbo.

                That makes sense! Kinda strange how that would work but it explains why nobody has ever tried to take it from one who failed to destroy it while he was right at Mount Doom.

                Dana



                .����)) -:�:-
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                -:�:- ((��.��-:�:- Erunanethiel@...



























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              • Dana Johns
                Jack wrote: The other reason is that had Isildur destroyed the ring, the book would have been a lot shorter... ... Jack LOLOLOL Jack.
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 1, 2005
                  Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                  The other reason is that had Isildur destroyed the ring, the book would have
                  been a lot shorter...

                  :o)
                  Jack

                  LOLOLOL Jack. That's quite true!

                  Dana



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                • Grey Malkin
                  ... Actually, he had two or three sons at this time, I believe. He had at least one, anyway. And wasn t he ambushed and killed on his way home from this war?
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
                    > So without Isildur willing to destroy the ring the only way it could
                    > be destroyed would be the kill or break isildur's mind. Elrond being
                    > foresighted would not want the last of the line to be lost. ( I think
                    > he was the last of his line at this time)

                    Actually, he had two or three sons at this time, I believe. He had at
                    least one, anyway.

                    And wasn't he ambushed and killed on his way home from this war? Or
                    am I confusing my movies and books yet again?

                    Grim
                  • Wilson, Bruce
                    Yes, he was. And he had at least one son, who I think (although I m not positive) was only a child at the time; there was also his nephew Anarion, the first
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
                      Yes, he was. And he had at least one son, who I think (although I'm not
                      positive) was only a child at the time; there was also his nephew
                      Anarion, the first King of Gondor.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Grey Malkin [mailto:grymalkyn@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:04 AM
                      To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st
                      battle of the ring.....




                      And wasn't he ambushed and killed on his way home from this war? Or
                      am I confusing my movies and books yet again?

                      Grim


                      Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
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                    • Jack
                      He had 4 sons, I believe, but only one survived him - Valandil(?) who was too young to go with him to the battle of the Last Alliance ... Jack ... From:
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
                        He had 4 sons, I believe, but only one survived him - Valandil(?) who was
                        too young to go with him to the battle of the Last Alliance


                        :o)
                        Jack

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Wilson, Bruce [mailto:brucewilson@...]
                        Yes, he was. And he had at least one son, who I think (although I'm not
                        positive) was only a child at the time; there was also his nephew
                        Anarion, the first King of Gondor.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Grey Malkin [mailto:grymalkyn@...]
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:04 AM
                        To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st
                        battle of the ring.....




                        And wasn't he ambushed and killed on his way home from this war? Or
                        am I confusing my movies and books yet again?

                        Grim


                        Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
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                      • Gary Bellinger
                        Didn t Isildur send Valandil to Rivendell or at least the Northern Kingdom where he would be safe from the fighting at the time of the Last Alliance? ... From:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
                          Didn't Isildur send Valandil to Rivendell or at least the Northern Kingdom
                          where he would be safe from the fighting at the time of the Last Alliance?

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Jack" <jack@...>
                          To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 9:18 AM
                          Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st battle of
                          the ring.....


                          >
                          > He had 4 sons, I believe, but only one survived him - Valandil(?) who was
                          > too young to go with him to the battle of the Last Alliance
                          >
                          >
                          > :o)
                          > Jack
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Wilson, Bruce [mailto:brucewilson@...]
                          > Yes, he was. And he had at least one son, who I think (although I'm not
                          > positive) was only a child at the time; there was also his nephew
                          > Anarion, the first King of Gondor.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Grey Malkin [mailto:grymalkyn@...]
                          > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:04 AM
                          > To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st
                          > battle of the ring.....
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > And wasn't he ambushed and killed on his way home from this war? Or
                          > am I confusing my movies and books yet again?
                          >
                          > Grim
                          >
                          >
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                        • Servo Kamen
                          ... Well, he was ambushed on the way home, but that was several years later, I think. *S* SHADOWKamen. ===== Send offlist e-mails to info_servo@yahoo.com .
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
                            --- Grey Malkin <grymalkyn@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > And wasn't he ambushed and killed on his way home
                            > from this war? Or
                            > am I confusing my movies and books yet again?
                            >


                            Well, he was ambushed on the way home, but that was
                            several years later, I think.




                            *S*
                            SHADOWKamen.

                            =====
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                          • Ink
                            Isildur did send Valandil to Rivendell but when did he send him? Since I guess that that was before or during the war than he must of had a successor when he
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
                              Isildur did send Valandil to Rivendell but when did he send him?
                              Since I guess that that was before or during the war than he must of
                              had a successor when he was atop Mt Doom and maybe Isildur should have
                              been pushed in. (maybe)

                              Ink


                              On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:40:00 -0800 (PST), Servo Kamen
                              <psycho_neko_king@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- Grey Malkin <grymalkyn@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > And wasn't he ambushed and killed on his way home
                              > > from this war? Or
                              > > am I confusing my movies and books yet again?
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > Well, he was ambushed on the way home, but that was
                              > several years later, I think.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > *S*
                              > SHADOWKamen.
                              >
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                            • Wilson, Bruce
                              I m not sure of YEARS, but he did spend some time in Gondor organizing the new kingdom and setting up his nephew Anarion as king. He then headed north to take
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 3, 2005
                                I'm not sure of YEARS, but he did spend some time in Gondor organizing
                                the new kingdom and setting up his nephew Anarion as king. He then
                                headed north to take charge of Arnor, and was ambushed by the orcs on
                                his way.

                                [Wilson, Bruce]

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Servo Kamen [mailto:psycho_neko_king@...]
                                Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:40 PM
                                To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st
                                battle of the ring.....




                                --- Grey Malkin <grymalkyn@...> wrote:



                                Well, he was ambushed on the way home, but that was
                                several years later, I think.




                                *S*
                                SHADOWKamen.

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                              • Servo Kamen
                                Wilson, Bruce wrote: I m not sure of YEARS, but he did spend some time in Gondor organizing the new kingdom and setting up
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 4, 2005
                                  "Wilson, Bruce" <brucewilson@...> wrote:
                                  I'm not sure of YEARS, but he did spend some time in Gondor organizing
                                  the new kingdom and setting up his nephew Anarion as king. He then
                                  headed north to take charge of Arnor, and was ambushed by the orcs on
                                  his way.

                                  [Wilson, Bruce]



                                  In Unfinished Tales, I think it also said that Isuldir has finally overcome the Ring and was about to surrender it to Elrond in Rivendell. Ah, such irony.







                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Servo Kamen [mailto:psycho_neko_king@...]
                                  Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:40 PM
                                  To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st
                                  battle of the ring.....




                                  --- Grey Malkin <grymalkyn@...> wrote:



                                  Well, he was ambushed on the way home, but that was
                                  several years later, I think.




                                  *S*
                                  SHADOWKamen.

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                                • Ink
                                  Do you perhaps know about where in Unfinished Tales it said this, I have the book but have not yet read it. Ink On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:57:59 -0800 (PST), Servo
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 5, 2005
                                    Do you perhaps know about where in Unfinished Tales it said this, I
                                    have the book but have not yet read it.

                                    Ink


                                    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:57:59 -0800 (PST), Servo Kamen
                                    <psycho_neko_king@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "Wilson, Bruce" <brucewilson@...> wrote:
                                    > I'm not sure of YEARS, but he did spend some time in Gondor organizing
                                    > the new kingdom and setting up his nephew Anarion as king. He then
                                    > headed north to take charge of Arnor, and was ambushed by the orcs on
                                    > his way.
                                    >
                                    > [Wilson, Bruce]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > In Unfinished Tales, I think it also said that Isuldir has finally overcome
                                    > the Ring and was about to surrender it to Elrond in Rivendell. Ah, such
                                    > irony.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Servo Kamen [mailto:psycho_neko_king@...]
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:40 PM
                                    > To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st
                                    > battle of the ring.....
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- Grey Malkin <grymalkyn@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Well, he was ambushed on the way home, but that was
                                    > several years later, I think.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > *S*
                                    > SHADOWKamen.
                                    >
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                                  • Ink
                                    Yes! I found it on page 274 and he said he did not have the power to wield to and that it should go to the keeper of the three (or some such saying) which he
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 5, 2005
                                      Yes! I found it on page 274 and he said he did not have the power to
                                      wield to and that it should go to the keeper of the three (or some
                                      such saying) which he meant the elves.

                                      Ink


                                      On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:30:04 -0700, Ink <ink.lives@...> wrote:
                                      > Do you perhaps know about where in Unfinished Tales it said this, I
                                      > have the book but have not yet read it.
                                      >
                                      > Ink
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:57:59 -0800 (PST), Servo Kamen
                                      > <psycho_neko_king@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > "Wilson, Bruce" <brucewilson@...> wrote:
                                      > > I'm not sure of YEARS, but he did spend some time in Gondor organizing
                                      > > the new kingdom and setting up his nephew Anarion as king. He then
                                      > > headed north to take charge of Arnor, and was ambushed by the orcs on
                                      > > his way.
                                      > >
                                      > > [Wilson, Bruce]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > In Unfinished Tales, I think it also said that Isuldir has finally overcome
                                      > > the Ring and was about to surrender it to Elrond in Rivendell. Ah, such
                                      > > irony.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: Servo Kamen [mailto:psycho_neko_king@...]
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:40 PM
                                      > > To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st
                                      > > battle of the ring.....
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- Grey Malkin <grymalkyn@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Well, he was ambushed on the way home, but that was
                                      > > several years later, I think.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > *S*
                                      > > SHADOWKamen.
                                      > >
                                      > > =====
                                      > > Send offlist e-mails to info_servo@... .
                                      > >
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                                      --
                                      "Elen sila lumenn omentilmo"
                                    • Wilson, Bruce
                                      I don t have the book here, and I m not sure if it is in UT or the Appendices to LOTR or in some other part of HOME. ... From: Ink [mailto:ink.lives@gmail.com]
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 7, 2005
                                        I don't have the book here, and I'm not sure if it is in UT or the
                                        Appendices to LOTR or in some other part of HOME.

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Ink [mailto:ink.lives@...]
                                        Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 3:30 PM
                                        To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st
                                        battle of the ring.....


                                        Do you perhaps know about where in Unfinished Tales it said this, I
                                        have the book but have not yet read it.

                                        Ink


                                        On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:57:59 -0800 (PST), Servo Kamen
                                        <psycho_neko_king@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > "Wilson, Bruce" <brucewilson@...> wrote:
                                        > I'm not sure of YEARS, but he did spend some time in Gondor organizing
                                        > the new kingdom and setting up his nephew Anarion as king. He then
                                        > headed north to take charge of Arnor, and was ambushed by the orcs on
                                        > his way.
                                        >
                                        > [Wilson, Bruce]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > In Unfinished Tales, I think it also said that Isuldir has finally
                                        overcome
                                        > the Ring and was about to surrender it to Elrond in Rivendell. Ah,
                                        such
                                        > irony.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Servo Kamen [mailto:psycho_neko_king@...]
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:40 PM
                                        > To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: A thought concerning the 1st
                                        > battle of the ring.....
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- Grey Malkin <grymalkyn@...> wrote:
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                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Well, he was ambushed on the way home, but that was
                                        > several years later, I think.
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                                        >
                                        >
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