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RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Digest Number 974

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  • Jack
    Yes, it s in the Prologue to FOTR It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangements Hobbits are relatives of ours... Of old they spoke the languages of
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 9, 2004
      Yes, it's in the Prologue to FOTR
      "It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangements Hobbits are
      relatives of ours... Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their
      own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But
      what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. "

      :o)
      Jack
      (I've had amnesia for as long as I can remember)
      Click here for jokes, cartoons, and voluptuous redheads:
      mailto:moraldepravity-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

      PS I lied about the redheads...
      -----Original Message-----
      From: geltharin2003 [mailto:geltharin2003@...]
      Sent: 09 September 2004 00:16
      To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Digest Number 974

      Ah, now there is the rub, not much is said of the origins of
      Hobbits. I do have a vauge recolection though(don't know where, so
      maybe I am imagining it LOL) of seeing something about Hobbits being
      related to Man. Like an offshoot or something.

      Robert/Eol

      --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jack@t...> wrote:
      > And Hobbits?
      >
      > :o)
      > Jack





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    • cleidoic
      I know I hold a minority opinion on this, but here goes. LoTR was written as if it was collected writings from a variety of sources - some from Gondor, some
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 14, 2004
        I know I hold a minority opinion on this, but here goes. LoTR was
        written as if it was collected writings from a variety of sources -
        some from Gondor, some from the Shire, etc. And many of things that
        start with "it is said" or "the fill-in-the-blank believe" are not
        necessarily correct, even in the appendices or the prologue. After
        all, during the days of the War of the Rings Men had come to believe
        that Galadriel was a dark power, when she clearly wasn't. (And
        Dwarves didn't spring from stones!) Also, many things which are held
        to be true are descended from Elven stories - and the Elves didn't
        always know either.

        At one point in writing the information presented in the front of the
        book, Tolkien used the word "related" when talking about the culture
        of the Hobbits and the culture of Men. At that time, he wasn't
        talking about the origin or biological connection between them, but
        the relationship between their habits, likes, customs and languages.
        However, the Hobbits aren't the only group that has adopted culture,
        language, art, etc. - Men adopted most of that from the Elves in
        earlier times and Men are clearly not genetically related to the
        Elves. Actually, the Elves seem to have gotten their mitts on
        everybody when it comes to language - their languages were used by
        almost every group.

        In a letter after LoTR was published, Tolkien was vague on the origin
        of Hobbits - saying only that they were similar to Men in their
        nature and customs - but not specifically committing himself to
        saying that Hobbits descended biologically from Men. He seemed to
        want to keep an element of mystery to their origins. He also has
        stated at other times, that there were surprises in the universe -
        even the Powers didn't know everything that would be created. That
        there would be elements that fit into his own plan and would be
        hidden from everyone's knowledge until they came to fruition. I got
        the impression from that, that Tolkien was considering the idea that
        the Hobbits were created by Eru (possibly specifically to play the
        part they did in the War of the Rings) and their role in the scheme
        of things was unknown to the Powers. If there are letters that
        commit to Hobbits being genetically an offshoot of Men, then it has
        slipped my memory. Anyway, them's my two cents.

        Clei

        "geltharin2003" <geltharin2003@y...> wrote:
        > Ah, I guess I did remember rightly. :)
        >
        > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Wilson, Bruce"
        > <brucewilson@m...> wrote:
        > > Hobbits, according to JRRT, are an offshoot of Men.
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Jack [mailto:jack@t...]
        > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:32 AM
        > > To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Digest Number 974
        > >
        > >
        > > And Hobbits?
        > >
        > > :o)
        > > Jack
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • furmanforever
        Good point. It seems that we (modern society) tend always to want everything solved, tied up neatly, like in 30-minute sit-coms, with no loose ends. We want
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 15, 2004
          Good point.

          It seems that we (modern society) tend always to want everything
          solved, tied up neatly, like in 30-minute sit-coms, with no loose
          ends. We want answers to everything. Perhaps Lewis was challenging us
          to accept the idea that some things are inexplicable, a literal "only
          God knows" (or in this case, Eru).

          furmanforever


          --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "cleidoic" <cleidoic@y...>
          wrote:
          > I know I hold a minority opinion on this, but here goes. LoTR was
          > written as if it was collected writings from a variety of sources -
          > some from Gondor, some from the Shire, etc. And many of things
          that
          > start with "it is said" or "the fill-in-the-blank believe" are not
          > necessarily correct, even in the appendices or the prologue. After
          > all, during the days of the War of the Rings Men had come to
          believe
          > that Galadriel was a dark power, when she clearly wasn't. (And
          > Dwarves didn't spring from stones!) Also, many things which are
          held
          > to be true are descended from Elven stories - and the Elves didn't
          > always know either.
          >
          > At one point in writing the information presented in the front of
          the
          > book, Tolkien used the word "related" when talking about the
          culture
          > of the Hobbits and the culture of Men. At that time, he wasn't
          > talking about the origin or biological connection between them, but
          > the relationship between their habits, likes, customs and
          languages.
          > However, the Hobbits aren't the only group that has adopted
          culture,
          > language, art, etc. - Men adopted most of that from the Elves in
          > earlier times and Men are clearly not genetically related to the
          > Elves. Actually, the Elves seem to have gotten their mitts on
          > everybody when it comes to language - their languages were used by
          > almost every group.
          >
          > In a letter after LoTR was published, Tolkien was vague on the
          origin
          > of Hobbits - saying only that they were similar to Men in their
          > nature and customs - but not specifically committing himself to
          > saying that Hobbits descended biologically from Men. He seemed to
          > want to keep an element of mystery to their origins. He also has
          > stated at other times, that there were surprises in the universe -
          > even the Powers didn't know everything that would be created. That
          > there would be elements that fit into his own plan and would be
          > hidden from everyone's knowledge until they came to fruition. I
          got
          > the impression from that, that Tolkien was considering the idea
          that
          > the Hobbits were created by Eru (possibly specifically to play the
          > part they did in the War of the Rings) and their role in the scheme
          > of things was unknown to the Powers. If there are letters that
          > commit to Hobbits being genetically an offshoot of Men, then it has
          > slipped my memory. Anyway, them's my two cents.
          >
          > Clei
          >
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