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Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Return of the King- the death of the Leader of the Nazgul

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  • peter d sippel
    On Sat, 1 May 2004 10:25:50 +1000 Amy Black ... How true. He had the seeds of his undoing within him. Keep that in mind, any of
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 30, 2004
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      On Sat, 1 May 2004 10:25:50 +1000 "Amy Black" <amyblack@...>
      writes:

      > Even Eowyn was terrified, till he revealed his undoing. Kind of
      > like
      > Darkness in Legend. If he had kepted his big mouth shut, he'd have
      > won, the
      > idiot.

      How true. He had the seeds of his undoing within him. Keep that in mind,
      any of you who may be planning to terrorize the world with your sorcery
      and necromancer's arts!

      > Well, that was 1 thing I thought about the books too. It said no
      > MAN could
      > kill him, but it was a woman and a hobbit that did, no man
      > whatsoever.
      >
      > Amy Black

      And a Hobbit who was, at that, still technically underage, so could
      actually be classed as a *boy* and not a "man" by the standards of his
      own people! One of Tolkien's repeated themes was that where the strong
      and mighty failed the weak and little were able to prevail so a woman in
      a sexist society and a "halfling" generally held to be of little account
      even by those who actually had heard of them did what others could not
      do. Almost sounds like Tolkien cribbed from I Corinthians.

      I'm presently working on a piece of fanfic about him and some of the
      other Nazgul, that tries to exploit what I see as a couple of weaknesses.
      It won't be ready for this round of Mithril awards, but maybe next
      time...;-) ;-)

      peter d sippel, Warminster, PA, USA

      QuakerPages: http://www.qhpress.org/quakerpages/qpages.htm

      "We easily condemn our own vices in others."--George Dilwyn.


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    • cleidoic
      Merry being a Hobbit may not have had anything to do with it. Remember the book says, No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 30, 2004
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        Merry being a Hobbit may not have had anything to do with it.
        Remember the book says, "No other blade, not though mightier
        hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so
        bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his
        unseen sinews to his will."

        It' s possible that the Westernesse blade made the Witch-king
        vulnerable but didn't kill him. Eowyn can then kill him because
        he was just made vulnerable. I wonder if anyone - man, male or
        whatever - could have wielded the Westernesse blade and
        made the Witch-king susceptible? And, conversely, could Eowyn
        have killed him if Merry hadn't cut his sinews? The prophecy
        doesn't say that man *can't* kill him, just that no man *would.*

        Of course, if I was a guy in Middle-earth, I'd be daunted by a
        prophecy like that.....

        Clei

        "Amy Black" <amyblack@a...> wrote:
        > Well, who the hell is going to go up against the Nazgul king?
        Be they elf,
        > dwarf or troll? Because of the 'man' prophecy, no male dared
        to fight him.
        > It wasn't until Eowyn faced him that maybe that 'Man' meant the
        race of man,
        > not the ones with something dangling between their legs.
        >
        > This is all my thinking btw, and more then likely is completly
        wrong, but I
        > just like the idea that men had it wrong all along and some elf
        warrior
        > could have come along and hacked his head off, when in the
        end, the great
        > race of men, elves and dwarves, great warrior type peeps and
        scholars, are
        > bested by a horse-riding woman and a hobbit :P
        >
        > Amy Black
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Rob <robaverbeck@c...>
        > To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 10:44 AM
        > Subject: RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Return of the King- the
        death of the
        > Leader of the Nazgul
        >
        >
        > > >Well, that was 1 thing I thought about the books too. It said
        > > >no MAN could kill him, but it was a woman and a hobbit that
        > > >did, no man whatsoever.
        > >
        > > Says nothing about dwarves or elves, either, does it?
        Perhaps Tolkien
        > > wanted us to see the disdain the Nazgul king had for his own
        kind (they
        > > were kings of men, after all, before their fall). The race of man
        was
        > > beneath his contempt or notice. (Which psychologically I'd
        say mirrored
        > > his own self-loathing at his own weakness which contributed
        to his
        > > falling to Sauron in the first place, but no need to get THAT
        deeply
        > > into it.) Contrasted to Aragorn and Boromir's attitudes (in
        book or
        > > movie, though those attitudes were slightly different from film
        to
        > > page).
        > >
        > > Rob A.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and
        take advantage
        > > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database,
        Polls, Members,
        > > and Calendar sections.
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
      • Info Servo
        It is my opinion that anyone could have killed the Witch King, had they the power and the weapons. I believe the No man part was just a prophecy (by
        Message 3 of 8 , May 1, 2004
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          It is my opinion that anyone could have killed the
          Witch King, had they the power and the weapons. I
          believe the "No man" part was just a prophecy (by
          Glorfindel, wasn't it?) that it would be no mortal
          man, and the Witch King went and took it has a sure
          sign of his invincibility and began bragging about it.




          SHADOWKamen.

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        • Wilson, Bruce
          Considering that JRRT was one of the translators of THE JERUSALEM BIBLE, that is not unlikely. ... From: peter d sippel [mailto:quakerpages@juno.com] Sent:
          Message 4 of 8 , May 3, 2004
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            Considering that JRRT was one of the translators of THE JERUSALEM BIBLE,
            that is not unlikely.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: peter d sippel [mailto:quakerpages@...]
            Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:34 AM
            To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Return of the King- the death of the
            Leader of the Nazgul


            On Sat, 1 May 2004 10:25:50 +1000 "Amy Black"
            <amyblack@...>
            writes:

            Almost sounds like Tolkien cribbed from I Corinthians.





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