Re: Storms on Caradhas
- I completely agree that Sauron could never imagine anyone
destroying the Ring. I always thought Saruman might be able to
figure it out, but it doesn't really matter. I agree with you also that
neither Sauron nor Saruman would consider Gondor as an
appropriate place to take the Ring and that's why Sauron at least
is so surprised by Aragorn, etc.
"geltharin2003" <geltharin2003@y...> wrote:
> Actually I don't think Saruman expected anyone to want todestroy
> the Ring any more than Sauron did. He desired the Ring, andthus he
> probably wouldn't understand why someone else would notdesire it.
> Also, remember what he said to Gandalf in the chapter 'TheVoice of
> Saruman'. He makes it clear that he thinks that Gandalfdesires
> power also. He also judges all hearts like Sauron did, againstthe
> measure of the desire for power. The greatest thing that I thinkof the
> either Saruman or Sauron feared, was that someone, say one
> Wise such as Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel....would sieze theRing and
> use it to oppose Sauron. Saruman's other great fear wasprobably
> that Sauron would regain the Ring, because then he wouldhave no
> need for Saruman, and thus he would become veryexpendable. It is
> not untill Aragorn shows himself to Sauron in the Palantir thatgoing
> Sauron knows for sure that an heir of Elendil still walks the
> earth. Then I think is when Sauron feared that the Ring was
> to Gondor. He probably saw Aragorn, and the sword reforged,thought
> about the fact that Aragorn was able to wrench the stone awayfrom
> Sauron's control, and then began to fear that Aragorn had theRing.
> The defeat of his first great assault against Minas Tirith, andthe
> destruction of the Lord of the Nazgul just confirmed the thoughtin
> his mind. I am sure that he was a bit fearful of what mayhappen.
> I think it is not until Sauron became aware of Frodo, as Frodofirst
> claimed the Ring and put it on at the Crack of Doom, that he
> even conceived the thought that they might try to destroy theRing.
> --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Amy Black"
> <amyblack@a...> wrote:
> > I.. hmm... I think I understand :P
> > I like to question people and bring up other theories, and I
> it createsGandalf
> > a better understanding. If you don't look at all the
> possibilities, then
> > you're not fully informed.. so to speak.
> > I'm not too sure about your thinking of Saruman, thinking
> > destroy the ring. You have to remmeber that both of these
> > and Sauron* actually doubt that any of them would try and
> it. Beingborder*
> > as, the main focus on the ring to be as a Weapon, Send it to
> Gondor, where
> > the damage could be more easily done *it is just over the
> and use itsomething like
> > there ('use' always made me thinkg, how do you use
> > It's not like it has some laser beam). Gondor and the Elves
> want it tothat
> > remain 'alive'. Elves knew, that if it was destroyed their own
> rings would
> > become just fashionable jewellry, and Gondor wanted it as a
> weapon. Of
> > course, the Elves understood this 'peril' once they realised
> there waswith
> > 'the one' in creation. Well, maybe not the very instance, but
> > realised that the power of their rings was somehow in line
> The One.Gandalf
> > Actually.. hmm you maybe right. Saruman was right in that
> > suggest destroying it, but, Saruman also knew/guessed that
> dwarves andsuggestion, and
> > elves would also be at the meeting to counter the
> decide towho sold
> > send it to Gondor.
> > In regards to Bree. There was hmm Sandyman/Sandman...
> Bill to Sam.the
> > Unsavoury Character... who spoke to who may appear to be
> Nazgul *fromshadowy
> > what I remmeber... I thought it was something like dark
> > etc*, which, may explain how they knew which room to go to.
> ring mayand
> > have influenced him a bit. Also, what about Old Man Willow?
> > As with the bit about abondining Gollum, I think it's intention
> was to be
> > found by orcs. When they try it on, Nazgul will pick up on it,
> > eventually find it. Didn't intend upon a hobbit of all things tohe
> find it.
> > Then again, at that time, Sauron was still in Mirkwood right?...
> or on his
> > way to Mordor. I would imagine, if he already was in mordor,
> would haveunderstand that
> > somehow picked up on Bilbo's presence (and yes, I
> The HobbitIf
> > was written before all of this ;P)
> > This is all too much to think of atm x.X I'll pick up in the
> morning hehehe
> > Amy
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: cleidoic <cleidoic@y...>
> > To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 7:23 PM
> > Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Storms on Caradhas
> > > "Amy Black" <amyblack@a...> wrote:
> > > > Maybe not so much the ring sent to Lorien, but to Gondor.
> it*have* to
> > > >was to be sent to Lorien, then they would pretty much
> > > >take that route.think the
> > >
> > > You know, I don't think either Sauron or Saruman would
> > > Ring would go to Gondor. Saruman: because he knewGandalf
> > > would recommend destroying it; therefore, Cracks ofDoom.
> > > Southward, but not to Gondor. Sauron: because of twothings. I
> > > don't think Sauron would believe that the Elves would handover
> > > the Ring to Men and Sauron didn't know Aragorn existed. Ithink
> > > any other Mortal Man who tried to claim the Ring would bepretty
> > > betrayed and/or seduced to the dark side. And Sauron can
> > > much take out Gondor militarily at this point so it doesn't dohave
> > > good as a hiding place for the Ring.
> > >
> > > > I wonder though, at the time, how much Sauronw ould
> > > >known about the fellowship through the ring. Not somuch as a
> > > >device like the palantir, but, perhaps in a way, in the sameway
> > > >the fellowship was influenced by the ring, what bout, asyou say
> > > >with the Watcher etc, what about the Mountain itself?Sauron
> > > >himself may not have caused it, but there was a veryof
> > > > powerful device in the hands of a hobbit on the doorstep
> > > >Caradhas. Saruman may have helped to awaken itperhaps,
> > > >but maybe the ring itself had more to do with it then eithertoo far
> > > >Sauron and Saruman.
> > >
> > > I think Rob was talking about this also. I don't know if I can
> > > explain how I think about the Ring, but here goes. I think it
> > > operates more subliminally than that. Sauron can't access
> > > Frodo's mind while he wears the Ring in The Pony - he's
> > > away and the connection is too weak. Nearby Nazgul can'feel'
> > > the Ring's pull vaguely if it is nearby, but they have to bedistance.
> > > physically close to it to zero in on it. Compare it maybe to a
> > > magnet's pull. Stronger when close, not so strong at a
> > > It can dimly feel the pull of Sauron's desire for it and tries toFor
> > > influence its bearer to head in that rough direction.
> > >
> > > The Ring also influences from within on a subliminal level.
> > > instance, Frodo has a natural urge to go traveling, but it'snot
> veryurge as
> > > strong on its own. The Ring would try to strengthen that
> > > a means of getting back to its Master. Frodo, if he hadtraveled
> > > on his own before anyone knew what the Ring was, mighthave
> > > found himself drawn ever nearer Mordor without everforming the
> > > intention to go there. He'd come upon a fork in the roadand
> > > choose the eastward path, thinking he had done sorandomly.
> > > The Ring would also work on his mind, trying to turn himever
> > > more evil. The more evil he gets, the more evil companyhe'd
> > > hook up with, etc. I don't think the Ring was sapient, but itoff
> > > some kind of awareness. It obviously didn't want to be with
> > > Isildur. And it got impatient with Gollum's lack of "progress"
> > > left him. But I don't think it 'felt' Bilbo's presence and
> decided to
> > > hop to him like a flea hopping onto a dog. It just dropped
> > > Gollum because whatever came along next had to bebetter for
> > > its purposes. It can draw things to it, so there probablywasn't
> > > much danger that it would remain unfound for too long. Asit
> > > nears Sauron and/or Mordor its influence gets stronger anddecided
> > > more apparent.
> > >
> > > I suppose it's possible that Caradhras felt the Ring and
> > > to bury it in an avalanche as a way of 'getting' the Ring. Butthe
> I don't
> > > think we need to attribute the crows and the wolves finding
> > > Fellowship to the draw of the Ring. After all, it's an emptyBree
> > > and lots of people are looking for them. They actually have
> > > good luck avoiding enemies for a long time. Nobody in
> > > seems to be drawn to the Ring except the Nazgul. Maybethe
> > > Watcher grabs Frodo because it can feel the Ring, butmaybe
> > > not. Certainly by the time Frodo is walking around in Ithilienwould
> > > there are a plethora of 'bad guys' not too far away who
> > > respond to the Ring if it could reach out like that. FrodoSauron on
> > > has tremendous good luck in avoiding any servant of
> > > what is basically one of Sauron's main interstate highways.where
> > >
> > > Amon Hen is the only place where we see Sauron actually
> > > getting close to "seeing" not only who's got the Ring but
> > > exactly it is. And that I attribute to the fact the Amon Hen isany
> > > "Seat of Seeing." So I don't think the Ring could transmit
> > > details about the Fellowship to Sauron at such a longdistance.
> > > Only at the Cracks of Doom is Sauron able to pinpoint theputs it
> > > whereabouts of the Ring exactly and then only when Frodo
> > > on and claims it. Is it because the Ring was aware of itsintended to
> > > danger? Could it 'feel' in Frodo's mind that he had
> > > destroy it? Or was Sauron able to 'read' Frodo's mind atthat
> > > point (Frodo's mind being worn down and vulnerable bythen)
> > > and 'see' where Frodo was standing and what he hadoriginally
> > > planned? Anyway, all this leads me to think the Ringoperates
> > > very subliminally, both in calling to Sauron and ininfluencing
> > > Frodo.take
> > >
> > > > Or... is that what you've been trying to imply all along? :P
> > >
> > > Um, I don't know. I confuse myself sometimes. ;)
> > >
> > > Clei
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and
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- I've always believed that the Palantíri were turned to each other.
So, even if you had one, you would need to have another one in a
useful location to see anything at that location. I don't think that
Sauron could simply want to see Amon Hen but that he would need a
Stone there. This is demonstrated in the book where Pippin looks into
the Orthanc stone and sees Sauron, who also sees him and believes
Pippin to be the Ringbearer. Also, Denethor looked through the Anor
stone and Sauron would show him visions of Gondor falling which
eventually led him to believe that Gondor was doomed and Sauron would
I think that the Hill of Seeing was the main factor behind that
scene. Because if Sauron had been using a Palantír, he would have
definitely seen Frodo (the Palantíri can't lie) and he thought
Pippin had the Ring.
Also, the person at the receiving end of a Palantír, no matter who
they are, can't sense that they are being watched. The Palantíri,
unlike say a Ring of Power, are not directly connected to the person
guiding it so they can't be considered something that one could use
to feel something. It is stated the Frodo can feel a shadow, so I'm
led to believe that this was Sauron and his whole 'all-seeing eye'
thing and Sauron's own connection to the Ring.