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Re: Storms on Caradhas

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  • cleidoic
    I completely agree that Sauron could never imagine anyone destroying the Ring. I always thought Saruman might be able to figure it out, but it doesn t really
    Message 1 of 237 , Mar 1, 2004
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      I completely agree that Sauron could never imagine anyone
      destroying the Ring. I always thought Saruman might be able to
      figure it out, but it doesn't really matter. I agree with you also that
      neither Sauron nor Saruman would consider Gondor as an
      appropriate place to take the Ring and that's why Sauron at least
      is so surprised by Aragorn, etc.

      Clei

      "geltharin2003" <geltharin2003@y...> wrote:
      > Actually I don't think Saruman expected anyone to want to
      destroy
      > the Ring any more than Sauron did. He desired the Ring, and
      thus he
      > probably wouldn't understand why someone else would not
      desire it.
      > Also, remember what he said to Gandalf in the chapter 'The
      Voice of
      > Saruman'. He makes it clear that he thinks that Gandalf
      desires
      > power also. He also judges all hearts like Sauron did, against
      the
      > measure of the desire for power. The greatest thing that I think
      > either Saruman or Sauron feared, was that someone, say one
      of the
      > Wise such as Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel....would sieze the
      Ring and
      > use it to oppose Sauron. Saruman's other great fear was
      probably
      > that Sauron would regain the Ring, because then he would
      have no
      > need for Saruman, and thus he would become very
      expendable. It is
      > not untill Aragorn shows himself to Sauron in the Palantir that
      > Sauron knows for sure that an heir of Elendil still walks the
      > earth. Then I think is when Sauron feared that the Ring was
      going
      > to Gondor. He probably saw Aragorn, and the sword reforged,
      thought
      > about the fact that Aragorn was able to wrench the stone away
      from
      > Sauron's control, and then began to fear that Aragorn had the
      Ring.
      > The defeat of his first great assault against Minas Tirith, and
      the
      > destruction of the Lord of the Nazgul just confirmed the thought
      in
      > his mind. I am sure that he was a bit fearful of what may
      happen.
      > I think it is not until Sauron became aware of Frodo, as Frodo
      > claimed the Ring and put it on at the Crack of Doom, that he
      first
      > even conceived the thought that they might try to destroy the
      Ring.
      >
      > Robert/Eol
      >
      > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Amy Black"
      > <amyblack@a...> wrote:
      > > I.. hmm... I think I understand :P
      > >
      > > I like to question people and bring up other theories, and I
      feel
      > it creates
      > > a better understanding. If you don't look at all the
      > possibilities, then
      > > you're not fully informed.. so to speak.
      > >
      > > I'm not too sure about your thinking of Saruman, thinking
      Gandalf
      > would
      > > destroy the ring. You have to remmeber that both of these
      beings
      > *Saruman
      > > and Sauron* actually doubt that any of them would try and
      destroy
      > it. Being
      > > as, the main focus on the ring to be as a Weapon, Send it to
      > Gondor, where
      > > the damage could be more easily done *it is just over the
      border*
      > and use it
      > > there ('use' always made me thinkg, how do you use
      something like
      > that?
      > > It's not like it has some laser beam). Gondor and the Elves
      did
      > want it to
      > > remain 'alive'. Elves knew, that if it was destroyed their own
      > rings would
      > > become just fashionable jewellry, and Gondor wanted it as a
      > weapon. Of
      > > course, the Elves understood this 'peril' once they realised
      that
      > there was
      > > 'the one' in creation. Well, maybe not the very instance, but
      > eventually
      > > realised that the power of their rings was somehow in line
      with
      > The One.
      > >
      > > Actually.. hmm you maybe right. Saruman was right in that
      Gandalf
      > would
      > > suggest destroying it, but, Saruman also knew/guessed that
      men,
      > dwarves and
      > > elves would also be at the meeting to counter the
      suggestion, and
      > decide to
      > > send it to Gondor.
      > >
      > > In regards to Bree. There was hmm Sandyman/Sandman...
      who sold
      > Bill to Sam.
      > > Unsavoury Character... who spoke to who may appear to be
      the
      > Nazgul *from
      > > what I remmeber... I thought it was something like dark
      shadowy
      > figures
      > > etc*, which, may explain how they knew which room to go to.
      The
      > ring may
      > > have influenced him a bit. Also, what about Old Man Willow?
      > >
      > > As with the bit about abondining Gollum, I think it's intention
      > was to be
      > > found by orcs. When they try it on, Nazgul will pick up on it,
      and
      > > eventually find it. Didn't intend upon a hobbit of all things to
      > find it.
      > > Then again, at that time, Sauron was still in Mirkwood right?...
      > or on his
      > > way to Mordor. I would imagine, if he already was in mordor,
      he
      > would have
      > > somehow picked up on Bilbo's presence (and yes, I
      understand that
      > The Hobbit
      > > was written before all of this ;P)
      > >
      > > This is all too much to think of atm x.X I'll pick up in the
      > morning hehehe
      > >
      > > Amy
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: cleidoic <cleidoic@y...>
      > > To: <TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 7:23 PM
      > > Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Storms on Caradhas
      > >
      > >
      > > > "Amy Black" <amyblack@a...> wrote:
      > > > > Maybe not so much the ring sent to Lorien, but to Gondor.
      If
      > it
      > > > >was to be sent to Lorien, then they would pretty much
      *have* to
      > > > >take that route.
      > > >
      > > > You know, I don't think either Sauron or Saruman would
      think the
      > > > Ring would go to Gondor. Saruman: because he knew
      Gandalf
      > > > would recommend destroying it; therefore, Cracks of
      Doom.
      > > > Southward, but not to Gondor. Sauron: because of two
      things. I
      > > > don't think Sauron would believe that the Elves would hand
      over
      > > > the Ring to Men and Sauron didn't know Aragorn existed. I
      think
      > > > any other Mortal Man who tried to claim the Ring would be
      > > > betrayed and/or seduced to the dark side. And Sauron can
      pretty
      > > > much take out Gondor militarily at this point so it doesn't do
      > any
      > > > good as a hiding place for the Ring.
      > > >
      > > > > I wonder though, at the time, how much Sauronw ould
      have
      > > > >known about the fellowship through the ring. Not so
      much as a
      > > > >device like the palantir, but, perhaps in a way, in the same
      way
      > > > >the fellowship was influenced by the ring, what bout, as
      you say
      > > > >with the Watcher etc, what about the Mountain itself?
      Sauron
      > > > >himself may not have caused it, but there was a very
      > > > > powerful device in the hands of a hobbit on the doorstep
      of
      > > > >Caradhas. Saruman may have helped to awaken it
      perhaps,
      > > > >but maybe the ring itself had more to do with it then either
      > > > >Sauron and Saruman.
      > > >
      > > > I think Rob was talking about this also. I don't know if I can
      > > > explain how I think about the Ring, but here goes. I think it
      > > > operates more subliminally than that. Sauron can't access
      > > > Frodo's mind while he wears the Ring in The Pony - he's
      too far
      > > > away and the connection is too weak. Nearby Nazgul can
      'feel'
      > > > the Ring's pull vaguely if it is nearby, but they have to be
      > > > physically close to it to zero in on it. Compare it maybe to a
      > > > magnet's pull. Stronger when close, not so strong at a
      distance.
      > > > It can dimly feel the pull of Sauron's desire for it and tries to
      > > > influence its bearer to head in that rough direction.
      > > >
      > > > The Ring also influences from within on a subliminal level.
      For
      > > > instance, Frodo has a natural urge to go traveling, but it's
      not
      > very
      > > > strong on its own. The Ring would try to strengthen that
      urge as
      > > > a means of getting back to its Master. Frodo, if he had
      traveled
      > > > on his own before anyone knew what the Ring was, might
      have
      > > > found himself drawn ever nearer Mordor without ever
      forming the
      > > > intention to go there. He'd come upon a fork in the road
      and
      > > > choose the eastward path, thinking he had done so
      randomly.
      > > > The Ring would also work on his mind, trying to turn him
      ever
      > > > more evil. The more evil he gets, the more evil company
      he'd
      > > > hook up with, etc. I don't think the Ring was sapient, but it
      > has
      > > > some kind of awareness. It obviously didn't want to be with
      > > > Isildur. And it got impatient with Gollum's lack of "progress"
      > and
      > > > left him. But I don't think it 'felt' Bilbo's presence and
      > decided to
      > > > hop to him like a flea hopping onto a dog. It just dropped
      off
      > > > Gollum because whatever came along next had to be
      better for
      > > > its purposes. It can draw things to it, so there probably
      wasn't
      > > > much danger that it would remain unfound for too long. As
      it
      > > > nears Sauron and/or Mordor its influence gets stronger and
      > > > more apparent.
      > > >
      > > > I suppose it's possible that Caradhras felt the Ring and
      decided
      > > > to bury it in an avalanche as a way of 'getting' the Ring. But
      > I don't
      > > > think we need to attribute the crows and the wolves finding
      the
      > > > Fellowship to the draw of the Ring. After all, it's an empty
      > land
      > > > and lots of people are looking for them. They actually have
      > pretty
      > > > good luck avoiding enemies for a long time. Nobody in
      Bree
      > > > seems to be drawn to the Ring except the Nazgul. Maybe
      the
      > > > Watcher grabs Frodo because it can feel the Ring, but
      maybe
      > > > not. Certainly by the time Frodo is walking around in Ithilien
      > > > there are a plethora of 'bad guys' not too far away who
      would
      > > > respond to the Ring if it could reach out like that. Frodo
      > actually
      > > > has tremendous good luck in avoiding any servant of
      Sauron on
      > > > what is basically one of Sauron's main interstate highways.
      > > >
      > > > Amon Hen is the only place where we see Sauron actually
      > > > getting close to "seeing" not only who's got the Ring but
      where
      > > > exactly it is. And that I attribute to the fact the Amon Hen is
      > the
      > > > "Seat of Seeing." So I don't think the Ring could transmit
      any
      > > > details about the Fellowship to Sauron at such a long
      distance.
      > > > Only at the Cracks of Doom is Sauron able to pinpoint the
      > > > whereabouts of the Ring exactly and then only when Frodo
      puts it
      > > > on and claims it. Is it because the Ring was aware of its
      > > > danger? Could it 'feel' in Frodo's mind that he had
      intended to
      > > > destroy it? Or was Sauron able to 'read' Frodo's mind at
      that
      > > > point (Frodo's mind being worn down and vulnerable by
      then)
      > > > and 'see' where Frodo was standing and what he had
      originally
      > > > planned? Anyway, all this leads me to think the Ring
      operates
      > > > very subliminally, both in calling to Sauron and in
      influencing
      > > > Frodo.
      > > >
      > > > > Or... is that what you've been trying to imply all along? :P
      > > >
      > > > Um, I don't know. I confuse myself sometimes. ;)
      > > >
      > > > Clei
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and
      take
      > advantage
      > > > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database,
      Polls,
      > Members,
      > > > and Calendar sections.
      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
    • xnemesis01
      I ve always believed that the Palantíri were turned to each other. So, even if you had one, you would need to have another one in a useful location to see
      Message 237 of 237 , Mar 25, 2004
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        I've always believed that the Palantíri were turned to each other.
        So, even if you had one, you would need to have another one in a
        useful location to see anything at that location. I don't think that
        Sauron could simply want to see Amon Hen but that he would need a
        Stone there. This is demonstrated in the book where Pippin looks into
        the Orthanc stone and sees Sauron, who also sees him and believes
        Pippin to be the Ringbearer. Also, Denethor looked through the Anor
        stone and Sauron would show him visions of Gondor falling which
        eventually led him to believe that Gondor was doomed and Sauron would
        win.
        I think that the Hill of Seeing was the main factor behind that
        scene. Because if Sauron had been using a Palantír, he would have
        definitely seen Frodo (the Palantíri can't lie) and he thought
        that
        Pippin had the Ring.
        Also, the person at the receiving end of a Palantír, no matter who
        they are, can't sense that they are being watched. The Palantíri,
        unlike say a Ring of Power, are not directly connected to the person
        guiding it so they can't be considered something that one could use
        to feel something. It is stated the Frodo can feel a shadow, so I'm
        led to believe that this was Sauron and his whole 'all-seeing eye'
        thing and Sauron's own connection to the Ring.
        ~Yalië
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