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RE: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: oscars

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  • Jack
    You have, I m sure, read Tom Shippey s book Writer of the Century for your thesis? I would like to hear more about this... Interesting that you classify
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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      You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer of the Century for your
      thesis? I would like to hear more about this...

      Interesting that you classify yourself as a professional writer. Because
      Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing "Translations from the Elvish"
      in his spare time from teaching and research in Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
      finish the Unfinished Tales initially because people whose opinion he valued
      (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no hope that it would be
      published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he never finished those
      Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was edited by his son after his
      death.

      Regards
      Jack


      -----Original Message-----
      From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
      As a professional writer (i.e., that is how I make
      100% of my money), I disagree (nicely)with the quote
      you made. So, for the sake of not being mean, I'm
      going to take the author out of it, and address the
      issue only:
      I understand that in the first 100 pages of FOTR there
      is a lot of description, but I found the other 2 books
      lacking enough description if anything. I mean, look
      how horribly short they are! TTT and ROTK are both
      well under 400 pages, which for that time was way to
      short for a book; in fact, it falls in with today's
      guidelines, which is that a novel should be 80,000 to
      100,000 words, which equals 325-400 pages to get
      published. All of Tolkien's fiction falls into that
      category except for FOTR, which only misses the mark
      by 56 pages! And, if you look at the state of fantasy
      writing today, you'll see that the average book is
      around 600 pages (all the Robert Jordan and Terry
      Brooks types), with descriptions that make Tolkien
      seem downright non-descriptive. In the prefaces of TTT
      and ROTK, Tolkien himself admits that the main problem
      with the trilogy that he has been told is that it is
      way too short, and even by us "modern" writers, who
      have too low of a threshold for description (that is
      our own fault, and our generation's readers fault)
      LOTR is WAY too short and non-descriptive, even for my
      favourite books of all time. On a literary analysis,
      however, I cannot simply forget that they are my
      favourite books to make Tolkien seem like a more
      descriptive author than he was: he should have put
      MUCH more of the history and short stories behind the
      truth of LOTR and incorporated it into the bulk of the
      work (i.e., nearly everything in the "Unfinished
      Tales" book should have been FINISHED, re-edited for
      the mass-market of the day to read, and put in their
      respective places in LOTR to make it a complete book,
      instead of such short (but amazing) pieces of work. If
      there is even one professional writer out there today
      (and again, use of the word professional to me means
      that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
      or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
      Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
      Bookstores)who says that Tolkien is too descriptive in
      the works that he published during his own lifetime
      (or the Sil for that matter, also) than it is someone
      who has simply heard comments like the one made below,
      and believed it, or has picked up the first volume of
      LOTR and started reading, found it wasn't for him/her,
      thus branding Tolkien too descriptive. I should
      know--I did this for many years. I was very ignorant
      and now I beat myself for it <lol>. Can you believe I
      tried to read the Sil before LOTR when I was 14, got
      bored, and decided that Tolkien sucked. It wasn't
      until I was a published author that someone highly
      recommended LOTR to me, and begrudgingly, I started
      FOTR for the 2nd or 3rd time in my life, too. After
      the initial, "I, I understand this world," Tolkien has
      the gall to come to landscapes, wars, and battles, and
      instead of describing them, he will say that it was
      "nice" and that "many poeople died!" No, take out the
      first 100 pages of FOTR and there is simply not enough
      detail and description even by today's standards. In a
      way, that is why the LOTR books were the most read
      books of the last century besides the Bible; because
      they are so readable and accessable. And that is part
      of what makes Tolkien great. I am doing my
      dissertation on Tolkien's writing style as it relates
      to the Olde English and Middle English, and the form
      of the English Lay (no one laugh there or I'll smite
      you), so anyone who wants to argue this point (nicely
      of course, I hate mean, biting, correcting on petty
      issue-type people more than anything) I would love to
      talk about it and prove my point. :-)
      david

      > Tolkien put in more description of landscapes and
      > such than a modern professional writer would say is
      > good for a book, and I have to agree. At parts the
      > books seem to drag a bit,


      =====
      Have a wonderful day,
      David Kaufman

      Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
      of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
      and Calendar sections.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions



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    • david kaufman
      ... I wrote: and again, use of the word professional to me means that is how you make at least the bulk of your money, or have magazine articles/stories and/or
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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        --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
        > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
        > of the Century for your
        > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
        >
        > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
        > professional writer. Because
        > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
        > "Translations from the Elvish"
        > in his spare time from teaching and research in
        > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
        > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because people
        > whose opinion he valued
        > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
        > hope that it would be
        > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
        > never finished those
        > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
        > edited by his son after his
        > death.
        >
        > Regards
        > Jack
        I wrote:
        and again, use of the word professional to me means
        that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
        or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
        Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
        Bookstores

        That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
        Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part of
        his life from royalties from his books than in the
        meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the professors
        often complained about it). Also, he published
        articles throughout his life having to do with
        philology, that is why I included "college bookstore."
        My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
        condider them prof writers because even though they
        still teach, they have written most of the modern
        "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
        fine line. My definition is more for people who do not
        publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I have
        read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
        from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
        to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
        david

        =====
        Have a wonderful day,
        David Kaufman
      • Jack
        Hmm, perhaps. I m sure you re right that he made more from his books than he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I don t think that Prof T would
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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          Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made more from his books than
          he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I don't think that Prof T
          would have written "professional writer" on his passport application!

          Never mind all that! Tell us more about your thesis!
          :o)
          Jack

          -----Original Message-----
          From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
          I wrote:
          and again, use of the word professional to me means
          that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
          or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
          Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
          Bookstores

          That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
          Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part of
          his life from royalties from his books than in the
          meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the professors
          often complained about it). Also, he published
          articles throughout his life having to do with
          philology, that is why I included "college bookstore."
          My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
          condider them prof writers because even though they
          still teach, they have written most of the modern
          "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
          fine line. My definition is more for people who do not
          publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I have
          read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
          from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
          to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
          david

          --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
          > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
          > of the Century for your
          > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
          >
          > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
          > professional writer. Because
          > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
          > "Translations from the Elvish"
          > in his spare time from teaching and research in
          > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
          > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because people
          > whose opinion he valued
          > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
          > hope that it would be
          > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
          > never finished those
          > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
          > edited by his son after his
          > death.
          >
          > Regards
          > Jack

          =====
          Have a wonderful day,
          David Kaufman

          Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
          of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
          and Calendar sections.
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions


          Yahoo! Groups Links

          To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • bungo_burrows
          Never said they weren t great films . You re point is moot. ... were great ... advantage ... Members,
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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            Never said they weren't "great films". You're point is moot.

            --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jack@t...> wrote:
            > Yet I think in 10 years time people will look back and say "Those
            were great
            > films".
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: bungo_burrows [mailto:yesgaz@i...]
            > As well done as the movies were done, they will never be able to
            > stand alongside the books. Due to the very nature of the movies,
            > there were many nuances in the book that were of necessity passed
            > over. There are so many intricacies in the book that you can read
            > over and feel the thoughts of the professor. The movies were great,
            > but the books are superior.
            >
            > bungo burrows,
            > #16 Hedgewood Close, Crickhollow
            >
            > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
            > <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
            > > How can you disagree if you have read the books? The
            > > films will always hold the place for Best Pictures in
            > > my heart, but nothing can overtake the feeling of
            > > reading the books, can they? Good posts, both of them
            > > here.
            > > david
            > > --- Cat <webmaster@r...> wrote:
            > > > I would agree. I loved the movies and I do hope ROTK
            > > > wins best
            > > > picture/director, however the books will always be
            > > > best as far as I
            > > > am concerned. Speaking of awards, Peter Jackson is
            > > > here in Santa
            > > > Barbara at the International Film Festival. He is
            > > > going to be at the
            > > > Arlington Theatre at 730 getting the Modern Masters
            > > > award. I really
            > > > want to go but can't get a ticket :(
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Cat
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
            > > > "bungo_burrows"
            > > > <yesgaz@i...> wrote:
            > > > > I think the oscars matter only to people who are
            > > > more fans of the
            > > > > LOTR movies and had not read the books previously.
            > > > No doubt, the
            > > > > movies were a huge boost to LOTR and the "Tolkien
            > > > franchise" but
            > > > for
            > > > > me it will always be the professor's work first
            > > > and the movies are
            > > > > secondary. PJ was just the latest to use his brush
            > > > and put his
            > > > vision
            > > > > of the Professor's work on a canvas.
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
            > > > "riddermarkmick"
            > > > > <riddermarkmick@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > the only award that matters is how many more
            > > > people have read the
            > > > > > books because of the terrific movie. i do not
            > > > gain anything
            > > > from
            > > > > > these people winning, so i see no reason why it
            > > > matters. Even if
            > > > > the
            > > > > > movie was terrible, the books would still be
            > > > legendary.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Mickey of The Mark
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
            > > > "Melanie"
            > > > > > <arafel1962@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > > The return of the king recieved 11 nomination
            > > > > wwwoooooooohoooooooooo
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > =====
            > > Have a wonderful day,
            > > David Kaufman
            >
            >
            > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take
            advantage
            > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls,
            Members,
            > and Calendar sections.
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • david kaufman
            You might want to email me privately with some questions, as my answers might prove boring to anyone on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of the
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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              You might want to email me privately with some
              questions, as my answers might prove boring to anyone
              on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of the
              other Tolkien scholars here. It really has little to
              do with Lord of the Rings and much more to do with his
              lectures in philology and books such as his "Lays of
              Beleriand" and "Sir Gawain..." and his (correct vs
              other scholars) interpretation of "The Homecoming of
              Beorhtnoth", and how the names in Olde English
              (believe it or not everyone, out of Olde, Middle and
              Modern English, Shakespeare is MODERN, not old or
              middle!) were the basis for all the Elves languages in
              the Sil and LOTR, and how the words of all the
              Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc., including all of his forms
              of Elvish were never made up by Tolkien, but in fact
              an attempt to reintroduce a little taste of Old
              English into the world. Fascinating to some, boring to
              others. If enough people want me to post my
              dissertation piece by piece here, I will. I figure if
              20 people respond to this I will, if not, why don't
              you and I email privately about this stuff, as I bet
              you know things (lots on this list do, actually!) that
              I would benefit greatly from, as my study has been
              very one-tracked--as a dissertation must be, of
              course. Hopefully it will turn me into Dr.Kaufman
              soon!!Thanks for your emails Jack. I look forward to
              emailing back and forth with either you or everyone on
              this fascinating--at least to me--matter of languages
              in Olde England (B.C. to 991 A.D.) and Toklkien's
              England.
              david
              --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
              > Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made
              > more from his books than
              > he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I
              > don't think that Prof T
              > would have written "professional writer" on his
              > passport application!
              >
              > Never mind all that! Tell us more about your
              > thesis!
              > :o)
              > Jack
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
              > I wrote:
              > and again, use of the word professional to me means
              > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
              > money,
              > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
              > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
              > Bookstores
              >
              > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
              > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
              > of
              > his life from royalties from his books than in the
              > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
              > professors
              > often complained about it). Also, he published
              > articles throughout his life having to do with
              > philology, that is why I included "college
              > bookstore."
              > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
              > condider them prof writers because even though they
              > still teach, they have written most of the modern
              > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
              > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
              > not
              > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
              > have
              > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
              > from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
              > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
              > david
              >
              > --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
              > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
              > > of the Century for your
              > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
              > >
              > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
              > > professional writer. Because
              > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
              > > "Translations from the Elvish"
              > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
              > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
              > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
              > people
              > > whose opinion he valued
              > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
              > > hope that it would be
              > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
              > > never finished those
              > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
              > > edited by his son after his
              > > death.
              > >
              > > Regards
              > > Jack
              >
              > =====
              > Have a wonderful day,
              > David Kaufman
              >
              > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online
              > and take advantage
              > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
              > Database, Polls, Members,
              > and Calendar sections.
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >


              =====
              Have a wonderful day,
              David Kaufman
            • bungo_burrows
              I for one would love to read your dissertations. I have always enjoyed reading such thoughts and ideas about the professor s writings.
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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                I for one would love to read your dissertations. I have always
                enjoyed reading such thoughts and ideas about the professor's
                writings.

                --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                > You might want to email me privately with some
                > questions, as my answers might prove boring to anyone
                > on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of the
                > other Tolkien scholars here. It really has little to
                > do with Lord of the Rings and much more to do with his
                > lectures in philology and books such as his "Lays of
                > Beleriand" and "Sir Gawain..." and his (correct vs
                > other scholars) interpretation of "The Homecoming of
                > Beorhtnoth", and how the names in Olde English
                > (believe it or not everyone, out of Olde, Middle and
                > Modern English, Shakespeare is MODERN, not old or
                > middle!) were the basis for all the Elves languages in
                > the Sil and LOTR, and how the words of all the
                > Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc., including all of his forms
                > of Elvish were never made up by Tolkien, but in fact
                > an attempt to reintroduce a little taste of Old
                > English into the world. Fascinating to some, boring to
                > others. If enough people want me to post my
                > dissertation piece by piece here, I will. I figure if
                > 20 people respond to this I will, if not, why don't
                > you and I email privately about this stuff, as I bet
                > you know things (lots on this list do, actually!) that
                > I would benefit greatly from, as my study has been
                > very one-tracked--as a dissertation must be, of
                > course. Hopefully it will turn me into Dr.Kaufman
                > soon!!Thanks for your emails Jack. I look forward to
                > emailing back and forth with either you or everyone on
                > this fascinating--at least to me--matter of languages
                > in Olde England (B.C. to 991 A.D.) and Toklkien's
                > England.
                > david
                > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                > > Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made
                > > more from his books than
                > > he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I
                > > don't think that Prof T
                > > would have written "professional writer" on his
                > > passport application!
                > >
                > > Never mind all that! Tell us more about your
                > > thesis!
                > > :o)
                > > Jack
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@y...]
                > > I wrote:
                > > and again, use of the word professional to me means
                > > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                > > money,
                > > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                > > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                > > Bookstores
                > >
                > > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                > > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                > > of
                > > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                > > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                > > professors
                > > often complained about it). Also, he published
                > > articles throughout his life having to do with
                > > philology, that is why I included "college
                > > bookstore."
                > > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                > > condider them prof writers because even though they
                > > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                > > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                > > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                > > not
                > > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                > > have
                > > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                > > from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                > > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                > > david
                > >
                > > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                > > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                > > > of the Century for your
                > > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                > > >
                > > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                > > > professional writer. Because
                > > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                > > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                > > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                > > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                > > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                > > people
                > > > whose opinion he valued
                > > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                > > > hope that it would be
                > > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                > > > never finished those
                > > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                > > > edited by his son after his
                > > > death.
                > > >
                > > > Regards
                > > > Jack
                > >
                > > =====
                > > Have a wonderful day,
                > > David Kaufman
                > >
                > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online
                > > and take advantage
                > > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                > > Database, Polls, Members,
                > > and Calendar sections.
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > =====
                > Have a wonderful day,
                > David Kaufman
              • Jack
                Just because we mostly have been talking about the films recently doesn t mean that the list wouldn t be interested in something a bit more intellectually
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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                  Just because we mostly have been talking about the films recently doesn't
                  mean that the list wouldn't be interested in something a bit more
                  intellectually rigorous!

                  Every now and again someone unsubscribes because the posts are too trivial
                  (usually someone who hasn't posted themselves) so it would be nice to zap
                  them with a bit of Beowulf in the original...

                  And don't expect me to be able to translate, but I would still be
                  interested!
                  :o)
                  Jack

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                  You might want to email me privately with some
                  questions, as my answers might prove boring to anyone
                  on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of the
                  other Tolkien scholars here. It really has little to
                  do with Lord of the Rings and much more to do with his
                  lectures in philology and books such as his "Lays of
                  Beleriand" and "Sir Gawain..." and his (correct vs
                  other scholars) interpretation of "The Homecoming of
                  Beorhtnoth", and how the names in Olde English
                  (believe it or not everyone, out of Olde, Middle and
                  Modern English, Shakespeare is MODERN, not old or
                  middle!) were the basis for all the Elves languages in
                  the Sil and LOTR, and how the words of all the
                  Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc., including all of his forms
                  of Elvish were never made up by Tolkien, but in fact
                  an attempt to reintroduce a little taste of Old
                  English into the world. Fascinating to some, boring to
                  others. If enough people want me to post my
                  dissertation piece by piece here, I will. I figure if
                  20 people respond to this I will, if not, why don't
                  you and I email privately about this stuff, as I bet
                  you know things (lots on this list do, actually!) that
                  I would benefit greatly from, as my study has been
                  very one-tracked--as a dissertation must be, of
                  course. Hopefully it will turn me into Dr.Kaufman
                  soon!!Thanks for your emails Jack. I look forward to
                  emailing back and forth with either you or everyone on
                  this fascinating--at least to me--matter of languages
                  in Olde England (B.C. to 991 A.D.) and Toklkien's
                  England.
                  david
                  --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                  > Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made
                  > more from his books than
                  > he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I
                  > don't think that Prof T
                  > would have written "professional writer" on his
                  > passport application!
                  >
                  > Never mind all that! Tell us more about your
                  > thesis!
                  > :o)
                  > Jack
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                  > I wrote:
                  > and again, use of the word professional to me means
                  > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                  > money,
                  > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                  > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                  > Bookstores
                  >
                  > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                  > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                  > of
                  > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                  > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                  > professors
                  > often complained about it). Also, he published
                  > articles throughout his life having to do with
                  > philology, that is why I included "college
                  > bookstore."
                  > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                  > condider them prof writers because even though they
                  > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                  > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                  > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                  > not
                  > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                  > have
                  > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                  > from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                  > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                  > david
                  >
                  > --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                  > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                  > > of the Century for your
                  > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                  > >
                  > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                  > > professional writer. Because
                  > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                  > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                  > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                  > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                  > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                  > people
                  > > whose opinion he valued
                  > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                  > > hope that it would be
                  > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                  > > never finished those
                  > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                  > > edited by his son after his
                  > > death.
                  > >
                  > > Regards
                  > > Jack
                  >
                  > =====
                  > Have a wonderful day,
                  > David Kaufman
                  >
                  > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online
                  > and take advantage
                  > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                  > Database, Polls, Members,
                  > and Calendar sections.
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  =====
                  Have a wonderful day,
                  David Kaufman

                  Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                  of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                  and Calendar sections.
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions



                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • david kaufman
                  well, only 2 people so far want it...including you! but I ll wait a few days, post something, and if people like it, then I ll continue! david ... ===== Have a
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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                    well, only 2 people so far want it...including you!
                    but I'll wait a few days, post something, and if
                    people like it, then I'll continue!
                    david
                    --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                    > Just because we mostly have been talking about the
                    > films recently doesn't
                    > mean that the list wouldn't be interested in
                    > something a bit more
                    > intellectually rigorous!
                    >
                    > Every now and again someone unsubscribes because the
                    > posts are too trivial
                    > (usually someone who hasn't posted themselves) so it
                    > would be nice to zap
                    > them with a bit of Beowulf in the original...
                    >
                    > And don't expect me to be able to translate, but I
                    > would still be
                    > interested!
                    > :o)
                    > Jack
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                    > You might want to email me privately with some
                    > questions, as my answers might prove boring to
                    > anyone
                    > on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of
                    > the
                    > other Tolkien scholars here. It really has little to
                    > do with Lord of the Rings and much more to do with
                    > his
                    > lectures in philology and books such as his "Lays of
                    > Beleriand" and "Sir Gawain..." and his (correct vs
                    > other scholars) interpretation of "The Homecoming of
                    > Beorhtnoth", and how the names in Olde English
                    > (believe it or not everyone, out of Olde, Middle and
                    > Modern English, Shakespeare is MODERN, not old or
                    > middle!) were the basis for all the Elves languages
                    > in
                    > the Sil and LOTR, and how the words of all the
                    > Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc., including all of his
                    > forms
                    > of Elvish were never made up by Tolkien, but in fact
                    > an attempt to reintroduce a little taste of Old
                    > English into the world. Fascinating to some, boring
                    > to
                    > others. If enough people want me to post my
                    > dissertation piece by piece here, I will. I figure
                    > if
                    > 20 people respond to this I will, if not, why don't
                    > you and I email privately about this stuff, as I bet
                    > you know things (lots on this list do, actually!)
                    > that
                    > I would benefit greatly from, as my study has been
                    > very one-tracked--as a dissertation must be, of
                    > course. Hopefully it will turn me into Dr.Kaufman
                    > soon!!Thanks for your emails Jack. I look forward to
                    > emailing back and forth with either you or everyone
                    > on
                    > this fascinating--at least to me--matter of
                    > languages
                    > in Olde England (B.C. to 991 A.D.) and Toklkien's
                    > England.
                    > david
                    > --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                    > > Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made
                    > > more from his books than
                    > > he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I
                    > > don't think that Prof T
                    > > would have written "professional writer" on his
                    > > passport application!
                    > >
                    > > Never mind all that! Tell us more about your
                    > > thesis!
                    > > :o)
                    > > Jack
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                    > > I wrote:
                    > > and again, use of the word professional to me
                    > means
                    > > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                    > > money,
                    > > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                    > > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                    > > Bookstores
                    > >
                    > > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                    > > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                    > > of
                    > > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                    > > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                    > > professors
                    > > often complained about it). Also, he published
                    > > articles throughout his life having to do with
                    > > philology, that is why I included "college
                    > > bookstore."
                    > > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but
                    > I
                    > > condider them prof writers because even though
                    > they
                    > > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                    > > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's
                    > a
                    > > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                    > > not
                    > > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                    > > have
                    > > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my
                    > writing
                    > > from a much different viewpoint, only how it
                    > relates
                    > > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                    > > david
                    > >
                    > > --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                    > > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book
                    > Writer
                    > > > of the Century for your
                    > > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                    > > >
                    > > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                    > > > professional writer. Because
                    > > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                    > > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                    > > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                    > > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                    > > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                    > > people
                    > > > whose opinion he valued
                    > > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                    > > > hope that it would be
                    > > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR,
                    > he
                    > > > never finished those
                    > > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                    > > > edited by his son after his
                    > > > death.
                    > > >
                    > > > Regards
                    > > > Jack
                    > >
                    > > =====
                    > > Have a wonderful day,
                    > > David Kaufman
                    > >
                    > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group
                    > online
                    > > and take advantage
                    > > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                    > > Database, Polls, Members,
                    > > and Calendar sections.
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > =====
                    > Have a wonderful day,
                    > David Kaufman
                    >
                    > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online
                    > and take advantage
                    > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                    > Database, Polls, Members,
                    > and Calendar sections.
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    =====
                    Have a wonderful day,
                    David Kaufman
                  • ethiercn@aol.com
                    In a message dated 2/2/2004 6:27:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, jack@telaservices.co.uk writes: Interesting that you classify yourself as a professional writer.
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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                      In a message dated 2/2/2004 6:27:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, jack@... writes:
                      Interesting that you classify yourself as a professional writer.  Because
                      Prof T was NOT.  He was an academic writing "Translations from the Elvish"
                      in his spare time from teaching and research in Anglo-Saxon.  He didn't
                      finish the Unfinished Tales initially because people whose opinion he valued
                      (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no hope that it would be
                      published.  He wrote LOTR instead.  After LOTR, he never finished those
                      Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was edited by his son after his
                      death.
                      Right.  And I think Prof T's critical works tend to be better written then his fiction.  His fiction, esp. LOTR reads like the Icelandic sagas etc {ie the Anglo-Saxon, Norse stuff he was familiar with}.  I think this why some people have problems with the books {tech. one book.}
                          And descriptive doesn't always mean good.  I hate RObert Jordan and Terry Brooks, though I did like them at some point.  But Terry Pratchett writes short books and he is great.  Dickens, Austen, Trollope did good description because they had to.  Modern writers think they have to, so they can reach the page count, but by and age they don't have the art.
                       
                       
                      Chris
                    • geltharin2003
                      Yes, very true. But, also as you said, they can t really be compared. Robert/Eol ... great,
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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                        Yes, very true. But, also as you said, they can't really be
                        compared.

                        Robert/Eol

                        --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "bungo_burrows"
                        <yesgaz@i...> wrote:
                        > As well done as the movies were done, they will never be able to
                        > stand alongside the books. Due to the very nature of the movies,
                        > there were many nuances in the book that were of necessity passed
                        > over. There are so many intricacies in the book that you can read
                        > over and feel the thoughts of the professor. The movies were
                        great,
                        > but the books are superior.
                        >
                        > bungo burrows,
                        > #16 Hedgewood Close, Crickhollow
                        >
                        > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                        > <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                        > > How can you disagree if you have read the books? The
                        > > films will always hold the place for Best Pictures in
                        > > my heart, but nothing can overtake the feeling of
                        > > reading the books, can they? Good posts, both of them
                        > > here.
                        > > david
                        > > --- Cat <webmaster@r...> wrote:
                        > > > I would agree. I loved the movies and I do hope ROTK
                        > > > wins best
                        > > > picture/director, however the books will always be
                        > > > best as far as I
                        > > > am concerned. Speaking of awards, Peter Jackson is
                        > > > here in Santa
                        > > > Barbara at the International Film Festival. He is
                        > > > going to be at the
                        > > > Arlington Theatre at 730 getting the Modern Masters
                        > > > award. I really
                        > > > want to go but can't get a ticket :(
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Cat
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > > "bungo_burrows"
                        > > > <yesgaz@i...> wrote:
                        > > > > I think the oscars matter only to people who are
                        > > > more fans of the
                        > > > > LOTR movies and had not read the books previously.
                        > > > No doubt, the
                        > > > > movies were a huge boost to LOTR and the "Tolkien
                        > > > franchise" but
                        > > > for
                        > > > > me it will always be the professor's work first
                        > > > and the movies are
                        > > > > secondary. PJ was just the latest to use his brush
                        > > > and put his
                        > > > vision
                        > > > > of the Professor's work on a canvas.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > > "riddermarkmick"
                        > > > > <riddermarkmick@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > > the only award that matters is how many more
                        > > > people have read the
                        > > > > > books because of the terrific movie. i do not
                        > > > gain anything
                        > > > from
                        > > > > > these people winning, so i see no reason why it
                        > > > matters. Even if
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > movie was terrible, the books would still be
                        > > > legendary.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Mickey of The Mark
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > > "Melanie"
                        > > > > > <arafel1962@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > > > The return of the king recieved 11 nomination
                        > > > > wwwoooooooohoooooooooo
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > =====
                        > > Have a wonderful day,
                        > > David Kaufman
                      • geltharin2003
                        True, the way it was published as three books, it is way too short. Personally I agree, and would have loved for Tolkien to go into a lot more detail on a lot
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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                          True, the way it was published as three books, it is way too short.
                          Personally I agree, and would have loved for Tolkien to go into a
                          lot more detail on a lot of things. Still, they are wonderful
                          books. I think that when the publisher told him that it would have
                          to be divided into three books, he should have gone back and added a
                          lot more detail, at least to TTT and RoTK. And since it was going
                          to be divided like that anyway, it would have given him lots of room
                          to do this, with out the publisher trying to say that it was now too
                          long again. I myself would not mind reading your disertation.

                          Robert/Eol

                          --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                          <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                          > As a professional writer (i.e., that is how I make
                          > 100% of my money), I disagree (nicely)with the quote
                          > you made. So, for the sake of not being mean, I'm
                          > going to take the author out of it, and address the
                          > issue only:
                          > I understand that in the first 100 pages of FOTR there
                          > is a lot of description, but I found the other 2 books
                          > lacking enough description if anything. I mean, look
                          > how horribly short they are! TTT and ROTK are both
                          > well under 400 pages, which for that time was way to
                          > short for a book; in fact, it falls in with today's
                          > guidelines, which is that a novel should be 80,000 to
                          > 100,000 words, which equals 325-400 pages to get
                          > published. All of Tolkien's fiction falls into that
                          > category except for FOTR, which only misses the mark
                          > by 56 pages! And, if you look at the state of fantasy
                          > writing today, you'll see that the average book is
                          > around 600 pages (all the Robert Jordan and Terry
                          > Brooks types), with descriptions that make Tolkien
                          > seem downright non-descriptive. In the prefaces of TTT
                          > and ROTK, Tolkien himself admits that the main problem
                          > with the trilogy that he has been told is that it is
                          > way too short, and even by us "modern" writers, who
                          > have too low of a threshold for description (that is
                          > our own fault, and our generation's readers fault)
                          > LOTR is WAY too short and non-descriptive, even for my
                          > favourite books of all time. On a literary analysis,
                          > however, I cannot simply forget that they are my
                          > favourite books to make Tolkien seem like a more
                          > descriptive author than he was: he should have put
                          > MUCH more of the history and short stories behind the
                          > truth of LOTR and incorporated it into the bulk of the
                          > work (i.e., nearly everything in the "Unfinished
                          > Tales" book should have been FINISHED, re-edited for
                          > the mass-market of the day to read, and put in their
                          > respective places in LOTR to make it a complete book,
                          > instead of such short (but amazing) pieces of work. If
                          > there is even one professional writer out there today
                          > (and again, use of the word professional to me means
                          > that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
                          > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                          > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                          > Bookstores)who says that Tolkien is too descriptive in
                          > the works that he published during his own lifetime
                          > (or the Sil for that matter, also) than it is someone
                          > who has simply heard comments like the one made below,
                          > and believed it, or has picked up the first volume of
                          > LOTR and started reading, found it wasn't for him/her,
                          > thus branding Tolkien too descriptive. I should
                          > know--I did this for many years. I was very ignorant
                          > and now I beat myself for it <lol>. Can you believe I
                          > tried to read the Sil before LOTR when I was 14, got
                          > bored, and decided that Tolkien sucked. It wasn't
                          > until I was a published author that someone highly
                          > recommended LOTR to me, and begrudgingly, I started
                          > FOTR for the 2nd or 3rd time in my life, too. After
                          > the initial, "I, I understand this world," Tolkien has
                          > the gall to come to landscapes, wars, and battles, and
                          > instead of describing them, he will say that it was
                          > "nice" and that "many poeople died!" No, take out the
                          > first 100 pages of FOTR and there is simply not enough
                          > detail and description even by today's standards. In a
                          > way, that is why the LOTR books were the most read
                          > books of the last century besides the Bible; because
                          > they are so readable and accessable. And that is part
                          > of what makes Tolkien great. I am doing my
                          > dissertation on Tolkien's writing style as it relates
                          > to the Olde English and Middle English, and the form
                          > of the English Lay (no one laugh there or I'll smite
                          > you), so anyone who wants to argue this point (nicely
                          > of course, I hate mean, biting, correcting on petty
                          > issue-type people more than anything) I would love to
                          > talk about it and prove my point. :-)
                          > david
                          >
                          > > Tolkien put in more description of landscapes and
                          > > such than a modern professional writer would say is
                          > > good for a book, and I have to agree. At parts the
                          > > books seem to drag a bit,
                          >
                          >
                          > =====
                          > Have a wonderful day,
                          > David Kaufman
                        • geltharin2003
                          Ummm, I know this is off topic...but why would your definition of a professional writer include them making the majority of their money from their writing? I
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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                            Ummm, I know this is off topic...but why would your definition of a
                            professional writer include them making the majority of their money
                            from their writing? I mean, what if say a writer made a decent
                            amount of money from their writing, but made more at another job
                            that they held? Plus, I think that writers that only sell a few
                            things are still professional writers. Not to take anything away
                            from those that do make the majority, or all of their living from
                            writing, just to say that those who don't, also deserve recognition.

                            Robert/Eol

                            --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                            <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                            > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                            > > of the Century for your
                            > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                            > >
                            > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                            > > professional writer. Because
                            > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                            > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                            > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                            > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                            > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because people
                            > > whose opinion he valued
                            > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                            > > hope that it would be
                            > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                            > > never finished those
                            > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                            > > edited by his son after his
                            > > death.
                            > >
                            > > Regards
                            > > Jack
                            > I wrote:
                            > and again, use of the word professional to me means
                            > that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
                            > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                            > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                            > Bookstores
                            >
                            > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                            > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part of
                            > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                            > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the professors
                            > often complained about it). Also, he published
                            > articles throughout his life having to do with
                            > philology, that is why I included "college bookstore."
                            > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                            > condider them prof writers because even though they
                            > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                            > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                            > fine line. My definition is more for people who do not
                            > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I have
                            > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                            > from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                            > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                            > david
                            >
                            > =====
                            > Have a wonderful day,
                            > David Kaufman
                          • *Alconnwiel* Dana
                            yeah i agree, fotr was very descriptive and long and everything...not that i dont like TTT and ROTK (ROTK is my fave book) but i think they could of done
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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                              yeah i agree, fotr was very descriptive and long and
                              everything...not that i dont like TTT and ROTK (ROTK is my fave
                              book) but i think they could of done better with more background
                              info, or some more songs! but they are still great the way that they
                              are!
                              Dana

                              --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "geltharin2003"
                              <geltharin2003@y...> wrote:
                              > True, the way it was published as three books, it is way too
                              short.
                              > Personally I agree, and would have loved for Tolkien to go into a
                              > lot more detail on a lot of things. Still, they are wonderful
                              > books. I think that when the publisher told him that it would
                              have
                              > to be divided into three books, he should have gone back and added
                              a
                              > lot more detail, at least to TTT and RoTK. And since it was going
                              > to be divided like that anyway, it would have given him lots of
                              room
                              > to do this, with out the publisher trying to say that it was now
                              too
                              > long again. I myself would not mind reading your disertation.
                              >
                              > Robert/Eol
                              >
                            • geltharin2003
                              I for one would love to see what you have to say about it. I don t know how much input I would have...hehe but I am sure I might have a word or two to say.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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                                I for one would love to see what you have to say about it. I don't
                                know how much input I would have...hehe but I am sure I might have
                                a word or two to say. Of course, I am no linguist as such, but I am
                                very interested in languages.

                                Robert

                                --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                                <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                > You might want to email me privately with some
                                > questions, as my answers might prove boring to anyone
                                > on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of the
                                > other Tolkien scholars here. It really has little to
                                > do with Lord of the Rings and much more to do with his
                                > lectures in philology and books such as his "Lays of
                                > Beleriand" and "Sir Gawain..." and his (correct vs
                                > other scholars) interpretation of "The Homecoming of
                                > Beorhtnoth", and how the names in Olde English
                                > (believe it or not everyone, out of Olde, Middle and
                                > Modern English, Shakespeare is MODERN, not old or
                                > middle!) were the basis for all the Elves languages in
                                > the Sil and LOTR, and how the words of all the
                                > Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc., including all of his forms
                                > of Elvish were never made up by Tolkien, but in fact
                                > an attempt to reintroduce a little taste of Old
                                > English into the world. Fascinating to some, boring to
                                > others. If enough people want me to post my
                                > dissertation piece by piece here, I will. I figure if
                                > 20 people respond to this I will, if not, why don't
                                > you and I email privately about this stuff, as I bet
                                > you know things (lots on this list do, actually!) that
                                > I would benefit greatly from, as my study has been
                                > very one-tracked--as a dissertation must be, of
                                > course. Hopefully it will turn me into Dr.Kaufman
                                > soon!!Thanks for your emails Jack. I look forward to
                                > emailing back and forth with either you or everyone on
                                > this fascinating--at least to me--matter of languages
                                > in Olde England (B.C. to 991 A.D.) and Toklkien's
                                > England.
                                > david
                                > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                                > > Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made
                                > > more from his books than
                                > > he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I
                                > > don't think that Prof T
                                > > would have written "professional writer" on his
                                > > passport application!
                                > >
                                > > Never mind all that! Tell us more about your
                                > > thesis!
                                > > :o)
                                > > Jack
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@y...]
                                > > I wrote:
                                > > and again, use of the word professional to me means
                                > > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                                > > money,
                                > > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                                > > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                                > > Bookstores
                                > >
                                > > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                                > > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                                > > of
                                > > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                                > > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                                > > professors
                                > > often complained about it). Also, he published
                                > > articles throughout his life having to do with
                                > > philology, that is why I included "college
                                > > bookstore."
                                > > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                                > > condider them prof writers because even though they
                                > > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                                > > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                                > > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                                > > not
                                > > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                                > > have
                                > > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                                > > from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                                > > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                                > > david
                                > >
                                > > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                                > > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                                > > > of the Century for your
                                > > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                                > > >
                                > > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                                > > > professional writer. Because
                                > > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                                > > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                                > > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                                > > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                                > > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                                > > people
                                > > > whose opinion he valued
                                > > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                                > > > hope that it would be
                                > > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                                > > > never finished those
                                > > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                                > > > edited by his son after his
                                > > > death.
                                > > >
                                > > > Regards
                                > > > Jack
                                > >
                                > > =====
                                > > Have a wonderful day,
                                > > David Kaufman
                                > >
                                > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online
                                > > and take advantage
                                > > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                                > > Database, Polls, Members,
                                > > and Calendar sections.
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                                > >
                                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >
                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                > =====
                                > Have a wonderful day,
                                > David Kaufman
                              • david kaufman
                                I was only speaking in generalities...people like Scott Turow (Presumed Innocent, etc) still practices law full time, and even Grisham still takes
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
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                                  I was only speaking in generalities...people like
                                  Scott Turow (Presumed Innocent, etc) still practices
                                  law full time, and even Grisham still takes
                                  cases.....just talking in generalities, comparing this
                                  to all the people who write for fun rather than for
                                  any part of a profession, i.e.
                                  david
                                  --- geltharin2003 <geltharin2003@...> wrote:
                                  > Ummm, I know this is off topic...but why would your
                                  > definition of a
                                  > professional writer include them making the majority
                                  > of their money
                                  > from their writing? I mean, what if say a writer
                                  > made a decent
                                  > amount of money from their writing, but made more at
                                  > another job
                                  > that they held? Plus, I think that writers that
                                  > only sell a few
                                  > things are still professional writers. Not to take
                                  > anything away
                                  > from those that do make the majority, or all of
                                  > their living from
                                  > writing, just to say that those who don't, also
                                  > deserve recognition.
                                  >
                                  > Robert/Eol
                                  >
                                  > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david
                                  > kaufman
                                  > <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                                  > > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book
                                  > Writer
                                  > > > of the Century for your
                                  > > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                                  > > > professional writer. Because
                                  > > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                                  > > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                                  > > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                                  > > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                                  > > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                                  > people
                                  > > > whose opinion he valued
                                  > > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                                  > > > hope that it would be
                                  > > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR,
                                  > he
                                  > > > never finished those
                                  > > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                                  > > > edited by his son after his
                                  > > > death.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Regards
                                  > > > Jack
                                  > > I wrote:
                                  > > and again, use of the word professional to me
                                  > means
                                  > > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                                  > money,
                                  > > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                                  > > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                                  > > Bookstores
                                  > >
                                  > > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                                  > > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                                  > of
                                  > > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                                  > > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                                  > professors
                                  > > often complained about it). Also, he published
                                  > > articles throughout his life having to do with
                                  > > philology, that is why I included "college
                                  > bookstore."
                                  > > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but
                                  > I
                                  > > condider them prof writers because even though
                                  > they
                                  > > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                                  > > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's
                                  > a
                                  > > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                                  > not
                                  > > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                                  > have
                                  > > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my
                                  > writing
                                  > > from a much different viewpoint, only how it
                                  > relates
                                  > > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                                  > > david
                                  > >
                                  > > =====
                                  > > Have a wonderful day,
                                  > > David Kaufman
                                  >
                                  >


                                  =====
                                  Have a wonderful day,
                                  David Kaufman
                                • geltharin2003
                                  Ah, ok, got ya. That makes sense now. :) Robert
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                    Ah, ok, got ya. That makes sense now. :)

                                    Robert

                                    --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                                    <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                    > I was only speaking in generalities...people like
                                    > Scott Turow (Presumed Innocent, etc) still practices
                                    > law full time, and even Grisham still takes
                                    > cases.....just talking in generalities, comparing this
                                    > to all the people who write for fun rather than for
                                    > any part of a profession, i.e.
                                    > david
                                    > --- geltharin2003 <geltharin2003@y...> wrote:
                                    > > Ummm, I know this is off topic...but why would your
                                    > > definition of a
                                    > > professional writer include them making the majority
                                    > > of their money
                                    > > from their writing? I mean, what if say a writer
                                    > > made a decent
                                    > > amount of money from their writing, but made more at
                                    > > another job
                                    > > that they held? Plus, I think that writers that
                                    > > only sell a few
                                    > > things are still professional writers. Not to take
                                    > > anything away
                                    > > from those that do make the majority, or all of
                                    > > their living from
                                    > > writing, just to say that those who don't, also
                                    > > deserve recognition.
                                    > >
                                    > > Robert/Eol
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david
                                    > > kaufman
                                    > > <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                                    > > > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book
                                    > > Writer
                                    > > > > of the Century for your
                                    > > > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                                    > > > > professional writer. Because
                                    > > > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                                    > > > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                                    > > > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                                    > > > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                                    > > > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                                    > > people
                                    > > > > whose opinion he valued
                                    > > > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                                    > > > > hope that it would be
                                    > > > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR,
                                    > > he
                                    > > > > never finished those
                                    > > > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                                    > > > > edited by his son after his
                                    > > > > death.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Regards
                                    > > > > Jack
                                    > > > I wrote:
                                    > > > and again, use of the word professional to me
                                    > > means
                                    > > > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                                    > > money,
                                    > > > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                                    > > > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                                    > > > Bookstores
                                    > > >
                                    > > > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                                    > > > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                                    > > of
                                    > > > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                                    > > > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                                    > > professors
                                    > > > often complained about it). Also, he published
                                    > > > articles throughout his life having to do with
                                    > > > philology, that is why I included "college
                                    > > bookstore."
                                    > > > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but
                                    > > I
                                    > > > condider them prof writers because even though
                                    > > they
                                    > > > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                                    > > > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's
                                    > > a
                                    > > > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                                    > > not
                                    > > > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                                    > > have
                                    > > > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my
                                    > > writing
                                    > > > from a much different viewpoint, only how it
                                    > > relates
                                    > > > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                                    > > > david
                                    > > >
                                    > > > =====
                                    > > > Have a wonderful day,
                                    > > > David Kaufman
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > =====
                                    > Have a wonderful day,
                                    > David Kaufman
                                  • Terry Fowler
                                    ... Do post away! I d love to read some real scholarship on JRRT. Terry Fowler
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                      --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                                      <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                      > well, only 2 people so far want it...including you!
                                      > but I'll wait a few days, post something, and if
                                      > people like it, then I'll continue!

                                      Do post away! I'd love to read some real scholarship on JRRT.

                                      Terry Fowler
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