Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: oscars

Expand Messages
  • david kaufman
    How can you disagree if you have read the books? The films will always hold the place for Best Pictures in my heart, but nothing can overtake the feeling of
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 31, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      How can you disagree if you have read the books? The
      films will always hold the place for Best Pictures in
      my heart, but nothing can overtake the feeling of
      reading the books, can they? Good posts, both of them
      here.
      david
      --- Cat <webmaster@...> wrote:
      > I would agree. I loved the movies and I do hope ROTK
      > wins best
      > picture/director, however the books will always be
      > best as far as I
      > am concerned. Speaking of awards, Peter Jackson is
      > here in Santa
      > Barbara at the International Film Festival. He is
      > going to be at the
      > Arlington Theatre at 730 getting the Modern Masters
      > award. I really
      > want to go but can't get a ticket :(
      >
      >
      > Cat
      >
      >
      > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
      > "bungo_burrows"
      > <yesgaz@i...> wrote:
      > > I think the oscars matter only to people who are
      > more fans of the
      > > LOTR movies and had not read the books previously.
      > No doubt, the
      > > movies were a huge boost to LOTR and the "Tolkien
      > franchise" but
      > for
      > > me it will always be the professor's work first
      > and the movies are
      > > secondary. PJ was just the latest to use his brush
      > and put his
      > vision
      > > of the Professor's work on a canvas.
      > >
      > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
      > "riddermarkmick"
      > > <riddermarkmick@y...> wrote:
      > > > the only award that matters is how many more
      > people have read the
      > > > books because of the terrific movie. i do not
      > gain anything
      > from
      > > > these people winning, so i see no reason why it
      > matters. Even if
      > > the
      > > > movie was terrible, the books would still be
      > legendary.
      > > >
      > > > Mickey of The Mark
      > > >
      > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
      > "Melanie"
      > > > <arafel1962@y...> wrote:
      > > > > The return of the king recieved 11 nomination
      > > wwwoooooooohoooooooooo
      >
      >


      =====
      Have a wonderful day,
      David Kaufman
    • Jack
      I wonder if Allen and Unwin have published their sales figures over the last few years? ... From: riddermarkmick [mailto:riddermarkmick@yahoo.com] the only
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        I wonder if Allen and Unwin have published their sales figures over the last
        few years?

        -----Original Message-----
        From: riddermarkmick [mailto:riddermarkmick@...]
        the only award that matters is how many more people have read the
        books because of the terrific movie. i do not gain anything from
        these people winning, so i see no reason why it matters. Even if the
        movie was terrible, the books would still be legendary.

        Mickey of The Mark

        --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie"
        <arafel1962@y...> wrote:
        > The return of the king recieved 11 nomination wwwoooooooohoooooooooo


        Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
        of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
        and Calendar sections.
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions



        Yahoo! Groups Links

        To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • geltharin2003
        Actually, I have to wonder that myself. In my oppinion, I think the books are far supperior, but then most books are better than the movies made for
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Actually, I have to wonder that myself. In my oppinion, I think the
          books are far supperior, but then most books are better than the
          movies made for them.....most, not all. Still, the movies are great
          in their own rite, and I am glad they are recieving the recognition
          that they are. Anyway you look at it, the movies have been, if
          nothing else, good 'advertisement' for the books. I can't believe
          the number of people it seems have started to read the books after
          having seen the movies. Myself, I know five people that have read,
          or are now reading LoTR because they saw the movies and wanted to
          see if the books were even better. Two of these people I had never
          seen as people that would enjoy Tolkien. I don't know if they shall
          be the same kind of 'die hard' fan that I am of the books, but at
          least it is getting more people to read the books. :)

          Robert/Eol

          --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jack@t...> wrote:
          > I wonder if Allen and Unwin have published their sales figures
          over the last
          > few years?
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: riddermarkmick [mailto:riddermarkmick@y...]
          > the only award that matters is how many more people have read the
          > books because of the terrific movie. i do not gain anything from
          > these people winning, so i see no reason why it matters. Even if
          the
          > movie was terrible, the books would still be legendary.
          >
          > Mickey of The Mark
          >
          > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie"
          > <arafel1962@y...> wrote:
          > > The return of the king recieved 11 nomination
          wwwoooooooohoooooooooo
          >
          >
          > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take
          advantage
          > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls,
          Members,
          > and Calendar sections.
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Marta
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            << Actually, I have to wonder that myself.  In my oppinion, I think the
            books are far supperior, but then most books are better than the
            movies made for them.....most, not all.  Still, the movies are great
            in their own rite, and I am glad they are recieving the recognition
            that they are.  Anyway you look at it, the movies have been, if
            nothing else, good 'advertisement' for the books.  I can't believe
            the number of people it seems have started to read the books after
            having seen the movies.  Myself, I know five people that have read,
            or are now reading LoTR because they saw the movies and wanted to
            see if the books were even better.  Two of these people I had never
            seen as people that would enjoy Tolkien.  I don't know if they shall
            be the same kind of 'die hard' fan that I am of the books, but at
            least it is getting more people to read the books.  :) >>
             
            I agree with Robert on this. For me, books and movies are like apples and oranges. They each have their own strength, each are their own medium, so it's really hard to say one's better than the other. Tolkien put in more description of landscapes and such than a modern professional writer would say is good for a book, and I have to agree. At parts the books seem to drag a bit,
            ____________________________________________________
              IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
          • bungo_burrows
            As well done as the movies were done, they will never be able to stand alongside the books. Due to the very nature of the movies, there were many nuances in
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              As well done as the movies were done, they will never be able to
              stand alongside the books. Due to the very nature of the movies,
              there were many nuances in the book that were of necessity passed
              over. There are so many intricacies in the book that you can read
              over and feel the thoughts of the professor. The movies were great,
              but the books are superior.

              bungo burrows,
              #16 Hedgewood Close, Crickhollow

              --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
              <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
              > How can you disagree if you have read the books? The
              > films will always hold the place for Best Pictures in
              > my heart, but nothing can overtake the feeling of
              > reading the books, can they? Good posts, both of them
              > here.
              > david
              > --- Cat <webmaster@r...> wrote:
              > > I would agree. I loved the movies and I do hope ROTK
              > > wins best
              > > picture/director, however the books will always be
              > > best as far as I
              > > am concerned. Speaking of awards, Peter Jackson is
              > > here in Santa
              > > Barbara at the International Film Festival. He is
              > > going to be at the
              > > Arlington Theatre at 730 getting the Modern Masters
              > > award. I really
              > > want to go but can't get a ticket :(
              > >
              > >
              > > Cat
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
              > > "bungo_burrows"
              > > <yesgaz@i...> wrote:
              > > > I think the oscars matter only to people who are
              > > more fans of the
              > > > LOTR movies and had not read the books previously.
              > > No doubt, the
              > > > movies were a huge boost to LOTR and the "Tolkien
              > > franchise" but
              > > for
              > > > me it will always be the professor's work first
              > > and the movies are
              > > > secondary. PJ was just the latest to use his brush
              > > and put his
              > > vision
              > > > of the Professor's work on a canvas.
              > > >
              > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
              > > "riddermarkmick"
              > > > <riddermarkmick@y...> wrote:
              > > > > the only award that matters is how many more
              > > people have read the
              > > > > books because of the terrific movie. i do not
              > > gain anything
              > > from
              > > > > these people winning, so i see no reason why it
              > > matters. Even if
              > > > the
              > > > > movie was terrible, the books would still be
              > > legendary.
              > > > >
              > > > > Mickey of The Mark
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
              > > "Melanie"
              > > > > <arafel1962@y...> wrote:
              > > > > > The return of the king recieved 11 nomination
              > > > wwwoooooooohoooooooooo
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > =====
              > Have a wonderful day,
              > David Kaufman
            • Jack
              Yet I think in 10 years time people will look back and say Those were great films . ... From: bungo_burrows [mailto:yesgaz@itcanada.com] As well done as the
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 1, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Yet I think in 10 years time people will look back and say "Those were great
                films".

                -----Original Message-----
                From: bungo_burrows [mailto:yesgaz@...]
                As well done as the movies were done, they will never be able to
                stand alongside the books. Due to the very nature of the movies,
                there were many nuances in the book that were of necessity passed
                over. There are so many intricacies in the book that you can read
                over and feel the thoughts of the professor. The movies were great,
                but the books are superior.

                bungo burrows,
                #16 Hedgewood Close, Crickhollow

                --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                > How can you disagree if you have read the books? The
                > films will always hold the place for Best Pictures in
                > my heart, but nothing can overtake the feeling of
                > reading the books, can they? Good posts, both of them
                > here.
                > david
                > --- Cat <webmaster@r...> wrote:
                > > I would agree. I loved the movies and I do hope ROTK
                > > wins best
                > > picture/director, however the books will always be
                > > best as far as I
                > > am concerned. Speaking of awards, Peter Jackson is
                > > here in Santa
                > > Barbara at the International Film Festival. He is
                > > going to be at the
                > > Arlington Theatre at 730 getting the Modern Masters
                > > award. I really
                > > want to go but can't get a ticket :(
                > >
                > >
                > > Cat
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                > > "bungo_burrows"
                > > <yesgaz@i...> wrote:
                > > > I think the oscars matter only to people who are
                > > more fans of the
                > > > LOTR movies and had not read the books previously.
                > > No doubt, the
                > > > movies were a huge boost to LOTR and the "Tolkien
                > > franchise" but
                > > for
                > > > me it will always be the professor's work first
                > > and the movies are
                > > > secondary. PJ was just the latest to use his brush
                > > and put his
                > > vision
                > > > of the Professor's work on a canvas.
                > > >
                > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                > > "riddermarkmick"
                > > > <riddermarkmick@y...> wrote:
                > > > > the only award that matters is how many more
                > > people have read the
                > > > > books because of the terrific movie. i do not
                > > gain anything
                > > from
                > > > > these people winning, so i see no reason why it
                > > matters. Even if
                > > > the
                > > > > movie was terrible, the books would still be
                > > legendary.
                > > > >
                > > > > Mickey of The Mark
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                > > "Melanie"
                > > > > <arafel1962@y...> wrote:
                > > > > > The return of the king recieved 11 nomination
                > > > wwwoooooooohoooooooooo
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > =====
                > Have a wonderful day,
                > David Kaufman


                Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                and Calendar sections.
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions


                Yahoo! Groups Links

                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • david kaufman
                As a professional writer (i.e., that is how I make 100% of my money), I disagree (nicely)with the quote you made. So, for the sake of not being mean, I m going
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  As a professional writer (i.e., that is how I make
                  100% of my money), I disagree (nicely)with the quote
                  you made. So, for the sake of not being mean, I'm
                  going to take the author out of it, and address the
                  issue only:
                  I understand that in the first 100 pages of FOTR there
                  is a lot of description, but I found the other 2 books
                  lacking enough description if anything. I mean, look
                  how horribly short they are! TTT and ROTK are both
                  well under 400 pages, which for that time was way to
                  short for a book; in fact, it falls in with today's
                  guidelines, which is that a novel should be 80,000 to
                  100,000 words, which equals 325-400 pages to get
                  published. All of Tolkien's fiction falls into that
                  category except for FOTR, which only misses the mark
                  by 56 pages! And, if you look at the state of fantasy
                  writing today, you'll see that the average book is
                  around 600 pages (all the Robert Jordan and Terry
                  Brooks types), with descriptions that make Tolkien
                  seem downright non-descriptive. In the prefaces of TTT
                  and ROTK, Tolkien himself admits that the main problem
                  with the trilogy that he has been told is that it is
                  way too short, and even by us "modern" writers, who
                  have too low of a threshold for description (that is
                  our own fault, and our generation's readers fault)
                  LOTR is WAY too short and non-descriptive, even for my
                  favourite books of all time. On a literary analysis,
                  however, I cannot simply forget that they are my
                  favourite books to make Tolkien seem like a more
                  descriptive author than he was: he should have put
                  MUCH more of the history and short stories behind the
                  truth of LOTR and incorporated it into the bulk of the
                  work (i.e., nearly everything in the "Unfinished
                  Tales" book should have been FINISHED, re-edited for
                  the mass-market of the day to read, and put in their
                  respective places in LOTR to make it a complete book,
                  instead of such short (but amazing) pieces of work. If
                  there is even one professional writer out there today
                  (and again, use of the word professional to me means
                  that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
                  or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                  Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                  Bookstores)who says that Tolkien is too descriptive in
                  the works that he published during his own lifetime
                  (or the Sil for that matter, also) than it is someone
                  who has simply heard comments like the one made below,
                  and believed it, or has picked up the first volume of
                  LOTR and started reading, found it wasn't for him/her,
                  thus branding Tolkien too descriptive. I should
                  know--I did this for many years. I was very ignorant
                  and now I beat myself for it <lol>. Can you believe I
                  tried to read the Sil before LOTR when I was 14, got
                  bored, and decided that Tolkien sucked. It wasn't
                  until I was a published author that someone highly
                  recommended LOTR to me, and begrudgingly, I started
                  FOTR for the 2nd or 3rd time in my life, too. After
                  the initial, "I, I understand this world," Tolkien has
                  the gall to come to landscapes, wars, and battles, and
                  instead of describing them, he will say that it was
                  "nice" and that "many poeople died!" No, take out the
                  first 100 pages of FOTR and there is simply not enough
                  detail and description even by today's standards. In a
                  way, that is why the LOTR books were the most read
                  books of the last century besides the Bible; because
                  they are so readable and accessable. And that is part
                  of what makes Tolkien great. I am doing my
                  dissertation on Tolkien's writing style as it relates
                  to the Olde English and Middle English, and the form
                  of the English Lay (no one laugh there or I'll smite
                  you), so anyone who wants to argue this point (nicely
                  of course, I hate mean, biting, correcting on petty
                  issue-type people more than anything) I would love to
                  talk about it and prove my point. :-)
                  david

                  > Tolkien put in more description of landscapes and
                  > such than a modern professional writer would say is
                  > good for a book, and I have to agree. At parts the
                  > books seem to drag a bit,


                  =====
                  Have a wonderful day,
                  David Kaufman
                • Jack
                  You have, I m sure, read Tom Shippey s book Writer of the Century for your thesis? I would like to hear more about this... Interesting that you classify
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer of the Century for your
                    thesis? I would like to hear more about this...

                    Interesting that you classify yourself as a professional writer. Because
                    Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing "Translations from the Elvish"
                    in his spare time from teaching and research in Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                    finish the Unfinished Tales initially because people whose opinion he valued
                    (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no hope that it would be
                    published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he never finished those
                    Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was edited by his son after his
                    death.

                    Regards
                    Jack


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                    As a professional writer (i.e., that is how I make
                    100% of my money), I disagree (nicely)with the quote
                    you made. So, for the sake of not being mean, I'm
                    going to take the author out of it, and address the
                    issue only:
                    I understand that in the first 100 pages of FOTR there
                    is a lot of description, but I found the other 2 books
                    lacking enough description if anything. I mean, look
                    how horribly short they are! TTT and ROTK are both
                    well under 400 pages, which for that time was way to
                    short for a book; in fact, it falls in with today's
                    guidelines, which is that a novel should be 80,000 to
                    100,000 words, which equals 325-400 pages to get
                    published. All of Tolkien's fiction falls into that
                    category except for FOTR, which only misses the mark
                    by 56 pages! And, if you look at the state of fantasy
                    writing today, you'll see that the average book is
                    around 600 pages (all the Robert Jordan and Terry
                    Brooks types), with descriptions that make Tolkien
                    seem downright non-descriptive. In the prefaces of TTT
                    and ROTK, Tolkien himself admits that the main problem
                    with the trilogy that he has been told is that it is
                    way too short, and even by us "modern" writers, who
                    have too low of a threshold for description (that is
                    our own fault, and our generation's readers fault)
                    LOTR is WAY too short and non-descriptive, even for my
                    favourite books of all time. On a literary analysis,
                    however, I cannot simply forget that they are my
                    favourite books to make Tolkien seem like a more
                    descriptive author than he was: he should have put
                    MUCH more of the history and short stories behind the
                    truth of LOTR and incorporated it into the bulk of the
                    work (i.e., nearly everything in the "Unfinished
                    Tales" book should have been FINISHED, re-edited for
                    the mass-market of the day to read, and put in their
                    respective places in LOTR to make it a complete book,
                    instead of such short (but amazing) pieces of work. If
                    there is even one professional writer out there today
                    (and again, use of the word professional to me means
                    that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
                    or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                    Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                    Bookstores)who says that Tolkien is too descriptive in
                    the works that he published during his own lifetime
                    (or the Sil for that matter, also) than it is someone
                    who has simply heard comments like the one made below,
                    and believed it, or has picked up the first volume of
                    LOTR and started reading, found it wasn't for him/her,
                    thus branding Tolkien too descriptive. I should
                    know--I did this for many years. I was very ignorant
                    and now I beat myself for it <lol>. Can you believe I
                    tried to read the Sil before LOTR when I was 14, got
                    bored, and decided that Tolkien sucked. It wasn't
                    until I was a published author that someone highly
                    recommended LOTR to me, and begrudgingly, I started
                    FOTR for the 2nd or 3rd time in my life, too. After
                    the initial, "I, I understand this world," Tolkien has
                    the gall to come to landscapes, wars, and battles, and
                    instead of describing them, he will say that it was
                    "nice" and that "many poeople died!" No, take out the
                    first 100 pages of FOTR and there is simply not enough
                    detail and description even by today's standards. In a
                    way, that is why the LOTR books were the most read
                    books of the last century besides the Bible; because
                    they are so readable and accessable. And that is part
                    of what makes Tolkien great. I am doing my
                    dissertation on Tolkien's writing style as it relates
                    to the Olde English and Middle English, and the form
                    of the English Lay (no one laugh there or I'll smite
                    you), so anyone who wants to argue this point (nicely
                    of course, I hate mean, biting, correcting on petty
                    issue-type people more than anything) I would love to
                    talk about it and prove my point. :-)
                    david

                    > Tolkien put in more description of landscapes and
                    > such than a modern professional writer would say is
                    > good for a book, and I have to agree. At parts the
                    > books seem to drag a bit,


                    =====
                    Have a wonderful day,
                    David Kaufman

                    Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                    of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                    and Calendar sections.
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions



                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • david kaufman
                    ... I wrote: and again, use of the word professional to me means that is how you make at least the bulk of your money, or have magazine articles/stories and/or
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                      > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                      > of the Century for your
                      > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                      >
                      > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                      > professional writer. Because
                      > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                      > "Translations from the Elvish"
                      > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                      > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                      > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because people
                      > whose opinion he valued
                      > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                      > hope that it would be
                      > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                      > never finished those
                      > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                      > edited by his son after his
                      > death.
                      >
                      > Regards
                      > Jack
                      I wrote:
                      and again, use of the word professional to me means
                      that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
                      or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                      Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                      Bookstores

                      That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                      Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part of
                      his life from royalties from his books than in the
                      meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the professors
                      often complained about it). Also, he published
                      articles throughout his life having to do with
                      philology, that is why I included "college bookstore."
                      My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                      condider them prof writers because even though they
                      still teach, they have written most of the modern
                      "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                      fine line. My definition is more for people who do not
                      publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I have
                      read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                      from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                      to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                      david

                      =====
                      Have a wonderful day,
                      David Kaufman
                    • Jack
                      Hmm, perhaps. I m sure you re right that he made more from his books than he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I don t think that Prof T would
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made more from his books than
                        he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I don't think that Prof T
                        would have written "professional writer" on his passport application!

                        Never mind all that! Tell us more about your thesis!
                        :o)
                        Jack

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                        I wrote:
                        and again, use of the word professional to me means
                        that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
                        or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                        Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                        Bookstores

                        That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                        Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part of
                        his life from royalties from his books than in the
                        meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the professors
                        often complained about it). Also, he published
                        articles throughout his life having to do with
                        philology, that is why I included "college bookstore."
                        My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                        condider them prof writers because even though they
                        still teach, they have written most of the modern
                        "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                        fine line. My definition is more for people who do not
                        publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I have
                        read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                        from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                        to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                        david

                        --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                        > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                        > of the Century for your
                        > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                        >
                        > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                        > professional writer. Because
                        > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                        > "Translations from the Elvish"
                        > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                        > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                        > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because people
                        > whose opinion he valued
                        > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                        > hope that it would be
                        > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                        > never finished those
                        > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                        > edited by his son after his
                        > death.
                        >
                        > Regards
                        > Jack

                        =====
                        Have a wonderful day,
                        David Kaufman

                        Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                        of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                        and Calendar sections.
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions


                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/

                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • bungo_burrows
                        Never said they weren t great films . You re point is moot. ... were great ... advantage ... Members,
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Never said they weren't "great films". You're point is moot.

                          --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jack@t...> wrote:
                          > Yet I think in 10 years time people will look back and say "Those
                          were great
                          > films".
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: bungo_burrows [mailto:yesgaz@i...]
                          > As well done as the movies were done, they will never be able to
                          > stand alongside the books. Due to the very nature of the movies,
                          > there were many nuances in the book that were of necessity passed
                          > over. There are so many intricacies in the book that you can read
                          > over and feel the thoughts of the professor. The movies were great,
                          > but the books are superior.
                          >
                          > bungo burrows,
                          > #16 Hedgewood Close, Crickhollow
                          >
                          > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                          > <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                          > > How can you disagree if you have read the books? The
                          > > films will always hold the place for Best Pictures in
                          > > my heart, but nothing can overtake the feeling of
                          > > reading the books, can they? Good posts, both of them
                          > > here.
                          > > david
                          > > --- Cat <webmaster@r...> wrote:
                          > > > I would agree. I loved the movies and I do hope ROTK
                          > > > wins best
                          > > > picture/director, however the books will always be
                          > > > best as far as I
                          > > > am concerned. Speaking of awards, Peter Jackson is
                          > > > here in Santa
                          > > > Barbara at the International Film Festival. He is
                          > > > going to be at the
                          > > > Arlington Theatre at 730 getting the Modern Masters
                          > > > award. I really
                          > > > want to go but can't get a ticket :(
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Cat
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                          > > > "bungo_burrows"
                          > > > <yesgaz@i...> wrote:
                          > > > > I think the oscars matter only to people who are
                          > > > more fans of the
                          > > > > LOTR movies and had not read the books previously.
                          > > > No doubt, the
                          > > > > movies were a huge boost to LOTR and the "Tolkien
                          > > > franchise" but
                          > > > for
                          > > > > me it will always be the professor's work first
                          > > > and the movies are
                          > > > > secondary. PJ was just the latest to use his brush
                          > > > and put his
                          > > > vision
                          > > > > of the Professor's work on a canvas.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                          > > > "riddermarkmick"
                          > > > > <riddermarkmick@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > > the only award that matters is how many more
                          > > > people have read the
                          > > > > > books because of the terrific movie. i do not
                          > > > gain anything
                          > > > from
                          > > > > > these people winning, so i see no reason why it
                          > > > matters. Even if
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > movie was terrible, the books would still be
                          > > > legendary.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Mickey of The Mark
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                          > > > "Melanie"
                          > > > > > <arafel1962@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > The return of the king recieved 11 nomination
                          > > > > wwwoooooooohoooooooooo
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > =====
                          > > Have a wonderful day,
                          > > David Kaufman
                          >
                          >
                          > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take
                          advantage
                          > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls,
                          Members,
                          > and Calendar sections.
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • david kaufman
                          You might want to email me privately with some questions, as my answers might prove boring to anyone on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            You might want to email me privately with some
                            questions, as my answers might prove boring to anyone
                            on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of the
                            other Tolkien scholars here. It really has little to
                            do with Lord of the Rings and much more to do with his
                            lectures in philology and books such as his "Lays of
                            Beleriand" and "Sir Gawain..." and his (correct vs
                            other scholars) interpretation of "The Homecoming of
                            Beorhtnoth", and how the names in Olde English
                            (believe it or not everyone, out of Olde, Middle and
                            Modern English, Shakespeare is MODERN, not old or
                            middle!) were the basis for all the Elves languages in
                            the Sil and LOTR, and how the words of all the
                            Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc., including all of his forms
                            of Elvish were never made up by Tolkien, but in fact
                            an attempt to reintroduce a little taste of Old
                            English into the world. Fascinating to some, boring to
                            others. If enough people want me to post my
                            dissertation piece by piece here, I will. I figure if
                            20 people respond to this I will, if not, why don't
                            you and I email privately about this stuff, as I bet
                            you know things (lots on this list do, actually!) that
                            I would benefit greatly from, as my study has been
                            very one-tracked--as a dissertation must be, of
                            course. Hopefully it will turn me into Dr.Kaufman
                            soon!!Thanks for your emails Jack. I look forward to
                            emailing back and forth with either you or everyone on
                            this fascinating--at least to me--matter of languages
                            in Olde England (B.C. to 991 A.D.) and Toklkien's
                            England.
                            david
                            --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                            > Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made
                            > more from his books than
                            > he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I
                            > don't think that Prof T
                            > would have written "professional writer" on his
                            > passport application!
                            >
                            > Never mind all that! Tell us more about your
                            > thesis!
                            > :o)
                            > Jack
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                            > I wrote:
                            > and again, use of the word professional to me means
                            > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                            > money,
                            > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                            > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                            > Bookstores
                            >
                            > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                            > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                            > of
                            > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                            > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                            > professors
                            > often complained about it). Also, he published
                            > articles throughout his life having to do with
                            > philology, that is why I included "college
                            > bookstore."
                            > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                            > condider them prof writers because even though they
                            > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                            > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                            > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                            > not
                            > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                            > have
                            > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                            > from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                            > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                            > david
                            >
                            > --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                            > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                            > > of the Century for your
                            > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                            > >
                            > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                            > > professional writer. Because
                            > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                            > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                            > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                            > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                            > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                            > people
                            > > whose opinion he valued
                            > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                            > > hope that it would be
                            > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                            > > never finished those
                            > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                            > > edited by his son after his
                            > > death.
                            > >
                            > > Regards
                            > > Jack
                            >
                            > =====
                            > Have a wonderful day,
                            > David Kaufman
                            >
                            > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online
                            > and take advantage
                            > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                            > Database, Polls, Members,
                            > and Calendar sections.
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            =====
                            Have a wonderful day,
                            David Kaufman
                          • bungo_burrows
                            I for one would love to read your dissertations. I have always enjoyed reading such thoughts and ideas about the professor s writings.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I for one would love to read your dissertations. I have always
                              enjoyed reading such thoughts and ideas about the professor's
                              writings.

                              --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                              <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                              > You might want to email me privately with some
                              > questions, as my answers might prove boring to anyone
                              > on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of the
                              > other Tolkien scholars here. It really has little to
                              > do with Lord of the Rings and much more to do with his
                              > lectures in philology and books such as his "Lays of
                              > Beleriand" and "Sir Gawain..." and his (correct vs
                              > other scholars) interpretation of "The Homecoming of
                              > Beorhtnoth", and how the names in Olde English
                              > (believe it or not everyone, out of Olde, Middle and
                              > Modern English, Shakespeare is MODERN, not old or
                              > middle!) were the basis for all the Elves languages in
                              > the Sil and LOTR, and how the words of all the
                              > Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc., including all of his forms
                              > of Elvish were never made up by Tolkien, but in fact
                              > an attempt to reintroduce a little taste of Old
                              > English into the world. Fascinating to some, boring to
                              > others. If enough people want me to post my
                              > dissertation piece by piece here, I will. I figure if
                              > 20 people respond to this I will, if not, why don't
                              > you and I email privately about this stuff, as I bet
                              > you know things (lots on this list do, actually!) that
                              > I would benefit greatly from, as my study has been
                              > very one-tracked--as a dissertation must be, of
                              > course. Hopefully it will turn me into Dr.Kaufman
                              > soon!!Thanks for your emails Jack. I look forward to
                              > emailing back and forth with either you or everyone on
                              > this fascinating--at least to me--matter of languages
                              > in Olde England (B.C. to 991 A.D.) and Toklkien's
                              > England.
                              > david
                              > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                              > > Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made
                              > > more from his books than
                              > > he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I
                              > > don't think that Prof T
                              > > would have written "professional writer" on his
                              > > passport application!
                              > >
                              > > Never mind all that! Tell us more about your
                              > > thesis!
                              > > :o)
                              > > Jack
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@y...]
                              > > I wrote:
                              > > and again, use of the word professional to me means
                              > > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                              > > money,
                              > > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                              > > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                              > > Bookstores
                              > >
                              > > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                              > > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                              > > of
                              > > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                              > > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                              > > professors
                              > > often complained about it). Also, he published
                              > > articles throughout his life having to do with
                              > > philology, that is why I included "college
                              > > bookstore."
                              > > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                              > > condider them prof writers because even though they
                              > > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                              > > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                              > > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                              > > not
                              > > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                              > > have
                              > > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                              > > from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                              > > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                              > > david
                              > >
                              > > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                              > > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                              > > > of the Century for your
                              > > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                              > > >
                              > > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                              > > > professional writer. Because
                              > > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                              > > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                              > > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                              > > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                              > > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                              > > people
                              > > > whose opinion he valued
                              > > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                              > > > hope that it would be
                              > > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                              > > > never finished those
                              > > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                              > > > edited by his son after his
                              > > > death.
                              > > >
                              > > > Regards
                              > > > Jack
                              > >
                              > > =====
                              > > Have a wonderful day,
                              > > David Kaufman
                              > >
                              > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online
                              > > and take advantage
                              > > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                              > > Database, Polls, Members,
                              > > and Calendar sections.
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                              > >
                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > =====
                              > Have a wonderful day,
                              > David Kaufman
                            • Jack
                              Just because we mostly have been talking about the films recently doesn t mean that the list wouldn t be interested in something a bit more intellectually
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Just because we mostly have been talking about the films recently doesn't
                                mean that the list wouldn't be interested in something a bit more
                                intellectually rigorous!

                                Every now and again someone unsubscribes because the posts are too trivial
                                (usually someone who hasn't posted themselves) so it would be nice to zap
                                them with a bit of Beowulf in the original...

                                And don't expect me to be able to translate, but I would still be
                                interested!
                                :o)
                                Jack

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                                You might want to email me privately with some
                                questions, as my answers might prove boring to anyone
                                on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of the
                                other Tolkien scholars here. It really has little to
                                do with Lord of the Rings and much more to do with his
                                lectures in philology and books such as his "Lays of
                                Beleriand" and "Sir Gawain..." and his (correct vs
                                other scholars) interpretation of "The Homecoming of
                                Beorhtnoth", and how the names in Olde English
                                (believe it or not everyone, out of Olde, Middle and
                                Modern English, Shakespeare is MODERN, not old or
                                middle!) were the basis for all the Elves languages in
                                the Sil and LOTR, and how the words of all the
                                Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc., including all of his forms
                                of Elvish were never made up by Tolkien, but in fact
                                an attempt to reintroduce a little taste of Old
                                English into the world. Fascinating to some, boring to
                                others. If enough people want me to post my
                                dissertation piece by piece here, I will. I figure if
                                20 people respond to this I will, if not, why don't
                                you and I email privately about this stuff, as I bet
                                you know things (lots on this list do, actually!) that
                                I would benefit greatly from, as my study has been
                                very one-tracked--as a dissertation must be, of
                                course. Hopefully it will turn me into Dr.Kaufman
                                soon!!Thanks for your emails Jack. I look forward to
                                emailing back and forth with either you or everyone on
                                this fascinating--at least to me--matter of languages
                                in Olde England (B.C. to 991 A.D.) and Toklkien's
                                England.
                                david
                                --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                                > Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made
                                > more from his books than
                                > he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I
                                > don't think that Prof T
                                > would have written "professional writer" on his
                                > passport application!
                                >
                                > Never mind all that! Tell us more about your
                                > thesis!
                                > :o)
                                > Jack
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                                > I wrote:
                                > and again, use of the word professional to me means
                                > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                                > money,
                                > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                                > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                                > Bookstores
                                >
                                > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                                > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                                > of
                                > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                                > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                                > professors
                                > often complained about it). Also, he published
                                > articles throughout his life having to do with
                                > philology, that is why I included "college
                                > bookstore."
                                > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                                > condider them prof writers because even though they
                                > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                                > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                                > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                                > not
                                > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                                > have
                                > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                                > from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                                > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                                > david
                                >
                                > --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                                > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                                > > of the Century for your
                                > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                                > >
                                > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                                > > professional writer. Because
                                > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                                > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                                > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                                > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                                > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                                > people
                                > > whose opinion he valued
                                > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                                > > hope that it would be
                                > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                                > > never finished those
                                > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                                > > edited by his son after his
                                > > death.
                                > >
                                > > Regards
                                > > Jack
                                >
                                > =====
                                > Have a wonderful day,
                                > David Kaufman
                                >
                                > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online
                                > and take advantage
                                > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                                > Database, Polls, Members,
                                > and Calendar sections.
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                =====
                                Have a wonderful day,
                                David Kaufman

                                Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online and take advantage
                                of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Members,
                                and Calendar sections.
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions



                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/

                                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • david kaufman
                                well, only 2 people so far want it...including you! but I ll wait a few days, post something, and if people like it, then I ll continue! david ... ===== Have a
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  well, only 2 people so far want it...including you!
                                  but I'll wait a few days, post something, and if
                                  people like it, then I'll continue!
                                  david
                                  --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                                  > Just because we mostly have been talking about the
                                  > films recently doesn't
                                  > mean that the list wouldn't be interested in
                                  > something a bit more
                                  > intellectually rigorous!
                                  >
                                  > Every now and again someone unsubscribes because the
                                  > posts are too trivial
                                  > (usually someone who hasn't posted themselves) so it
                                  > would be nice to zap
                                  > them with a bit of Beowulf in the original...
                                  >
                                  > And don't expect me to be able to translate, but I
                                  > would still be
                                  > interested!
                                  > :o)
                                  > Jack
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                                  > You might want to email me privately with some
                                  > questions, as my answers might prove boring to
                                  > anyone
                                  > on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of
                                  > the
                                  > other Tolkien scholars here. It really has little to
                                  > do with Lord of the Rings and much more to do with
                                  > his
                                  > lectures in philology and books such as his "Lays of
                                  > Beleriand" and "Sir Gawain..." and his (correct vs
                                  > other scholars) interpretation of "The Homecoming of
                                  > Beorhtnoth", and how the names in Olde English
                                  > (believe it or not everyone, out of Olde, Middle and
                                  > Modern English, Shakespeare is MODERN, not old or
                                  > middle!) were the basis for all the Elves languages
                                  > in
                                  > the Sil and LOTR, and how the words of all the
                                  > Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc., including all of his
                                  > forms
                                  > of Elvish were never made up by Tolkien, but in fact
                                  > an attempt to reintroduce a little taste of Old
                                  > English into the world. Fascinating to some, boring
                                  > to
                                  > others. If enough people want me to post my
                                  > dissertation piece by piece here, I will. I figure
                                  > if
                                  > 20 people respond to this I will, if not, why don't
                                  > you and I email privately about this stuff, as I bet
                                  > you know things (lots on this list do, actually!)
                                  > that
                                  > I would benefit greatly from, as my study has been
                                  > very one-tracked--as a dissertation must be, of
                                  > course. Hopefully it will turn me into Dr.Kaufman
                                  > soon!!Thanks for your emails Jack. I look forward to
                                  > emailing back and forth with either you or everyone
                                  > on
                                  > this fascinating--at least to me--matter of
                                  > languages
                                  > in Olde England (B.C. to 991 A.D.) and Toklkien's
                                  > England.
                                  > david
                                  > --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                                  > > Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made
                                  > > more from his books than
                                  > > he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I
                                  > > don't think that Prof T
                                  > > would have written "professional writer" on his
                                  > > passport application!
                                  > >
                                  > > Never mind all that! Tell us more about your
                                  > > thesis!
                                  > > :o)
                                  > > Jack
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@...]
                                  > > I wrote:
                                  > > and again, use of the word professional to me
                                  > means
                                  > > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                                  > > money,
                                  > > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                                  > > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                                  > > Bookstores
                                  > >
                                  > > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                                  > > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                                  > > of
                                  > > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                                  > > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                                  > > professors
                                  > > often complained about it). Also, he published
                                  > > articles throughout his life having to do with
                                  > > philology, that is why I included "college
                                  > > bookstore."
                                  > > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but
                                  > I
                                  > > condider them prof writers because even though
                                  > they
                                  > > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                                  > > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's
                                  > a
                                  > > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                                  > > not
                                  > > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                                  > > have
                                  > > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my
                                  > writing
                                  > > from a much different viewpoint, only how it
                                  > relates
                                  > > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                                  > > david
                                  > >
                                  > > --- Jack <jack@...> wrote:
                                  > > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book
                                  > Writer
                                  > > > of the Century for your
                                  > > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                                  > > > professional writer. Because
                                  > > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                                  > > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                                  > > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                                  > > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                                  > > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                                  > > people
                                  > > > whose opinion he valued
                                  > > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                                  > > > hope that it would be
                                  > > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR,
                                  > he
                                  > > > never finished those
                                  > > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                                  > > > edited by his son after his
                                  > > > death.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Regards
                                  > > > Jack
                                  > >
                                  > > =====
                                  > > Have a wonderful day,
                                  > > David Kaufman
                                  > >
                                  > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group
                                  > online
                                  > > and take advantage
                                  > > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                                  > > Database, Polls, Members,
                                  > > and Calendar sections.
                                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                                  > >
                                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > =====
                                  > Have a wonderful day,
                                  > David Kaufman
                                  >
                                  > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online
                                  > and take advantage
                                  > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                                  > Database, Polls, Members,
                                  > and Calendar sections.
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  =====
                                  Have a wonderful day,
                                  David Kaufman
                                • ethiercn@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 2/2/2004 6:27:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, jack@telaservices.co.uk writes: Interesting that you classify yourself as a professional writer.
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In a message dated 2/2/2004 6:27:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, jack@... writes:
                                    Interesting that you classify yourself as a professional writer.  Because
                                    Prof T was NOT.  He was an academic writing "Translations from the Elvish"
                                    in his spare time from teaching and research in Anglo-Saxon.  He didn't
                                    finish the Unfinished Tales initially because people whose opinion he valued
                                    (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no hope that it would be
                                    published.  He wrote LOTR instead.  After LOTR, he never finished those
                                    Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was edited by his son after his
                                    death.
                                    Right.  And I think Prof T's critical works tend to be better written then his fiction.  His fiction, esp. LOTR reads like the Icelandic sagas etc {ie the Anglo-Saxon, Norse stuff he was familiar with}.  I think this why some people have problems with the books {tech. one book.}
                                        And descriptive doesn't always mean good.  I hate RObert Jordan and Terry Brooks, though I did like them at some point.  But Terry Pratchett writes short books and he is great.  Dickens, Austen, Trollope did good description because they had to.  Modern writers think they have to, so they can reach the page count, but by and age they don't have the art.
                                     
                                     
                                    Chris
                                  • geltharin2003
                                    Yes, very true. But, also as you said, they can t really be compared. Robert/Eol ... great,
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Yes, very true. But, also as you said, they can't really be
                                      compared.

                                      Robert/Eol

                                      --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "bungo_burrows"
                                      <yesgaz@i...> wrote:
                                      > As well done as the movies were done, they will never be able to
                                      > stand alongside the books. Due to the very nature of the movies,
                                      > there were many nuances in the book that were of necessity passed
                                      > over. There are so many intricacies in the book that you can read
                                      > over and feel the thoughts of the professor. The movies were
                                      great,
                                      > but the books are superior.
                                      >
                                      > bungo burrows,
                                      > #16 Hedgewood Close, Crickhollow
                                      >
                                      > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                                      > <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                      > > How can you disagree if you have read the books? The
                                      > > films will always hold the place for Best Pictures in
                                      > > my heart, but nothing can overtake the feeling of
                                      > > reading the books, can they? Good posts, both of them
                                      > > here.
                                      > > david
                                      > > --- Cat <webmaster@r...> wrote:
                                      > > > I would agree. I loved the movies and I do hope ROTK
                                      > > > wins best
                                      > > > picture/director, however the books will always be
                                      > > > best as far as I
                                      > > > am concerned. Speaking of awards, Peter Jackson is
                                      > > > here in Santa
                                      > > > Barbara at the International Film Festival. He is
                                      > > > going to be at the
                                      > > > Arlington Theatre at 730 getting the Modern Masters
                                      > > > award. I really
                                      > > > want to go but can't get a ticket :(
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Cat
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                                      > > > "bungo_burrows"
                                      > > > <yesgaz@i...> wrote:
                                      > > > > I think the oscars matter only to people who are
                                      > > > more fans of the
                                      > > > > LOTR movies and had not read the books previously.
                                      > > > No doubt, the
                                      > > > > movies were a huge boost to LOTR and the "Tolkien
                                      > > > franchise" but
                                      > > > for
                                      > > > > me it will always be the professor's work first
                                      > > > and the movies are
                                      > > > > secondary. PJ was just the latest to use his brush
                                      > > > and put his
                                      > > > vision
                                      > > > > of the Professor's work on a canvas.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                                      > > > "riddermarkmick"
                                      > > > > <riddermarkmick@y...> wrote:
                                      > > > > > the only award that matters is how many more
                                      > > > people have read the
                                      > > > > > books because of the terrific movie. i do not
                                      > > > gain anything
                                      > > > from
                                      > > > > > these people winning, so i see no reason why it
                                      > > > matters. Even if
                                      > > > > the
                                      > > > > > movie was terrible, the books would still be
                                      > > > legendary.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Mickey of The Mark
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com,
                                      > > > "Melanie"
                                      > > > > > <arafel1962@y...> wrote:
                                      > > > > > > The return of the king recieved 11 nomination
                                      > > > > wwwoooooooohoooooooooo
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > =====
                                      > > Have a wonderful day,
                                      > > David Kaufman
                                    • geltharin2003
                                      True, the way it was published as three books, it is way too short. Personally I agree, and would have loved for Tolkien to go into a lot more detail on a lot
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        True, the way it was published as three books, it is way too short.
                                        Personally I agree, and would have loved for Tolkien to go into a
                                        lot more detail on a lot of things. Still, they are wonderful
                                        books. I think that when the publisher told him that it would have
                                        to be divided into three books, he should have gone back and added a
                                        lot more detail, at least to TTT and RoTK. And since it was going
                                        to be divided like that anyway, it would have given him lots of room
                                        to do this, with out the publisher trying to say that it was now too
                                        long again. I myself would not mind reading your disertation.

                                        Robert/Eol

                                        --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                                        <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                        > As a professional writer (i.e., that is how I make
                                        > 100% of my money), I disagree (nicely)with the quote
                                        > you made. So, for the sake of not being mean, I'm
                                        > going to take the author out of it, and address the
                                        > issue only:
                                        > I understand that in the first 100 pages of FOTR there
                                        > is a lot of description, but I found the other 2 books
                                        > lacking enough description if anything. I mean, look
                                        > how horribly short they are! TTT and ROTK are both
                                        > well under 400 pages, which for that time was way to
                                        > short for a book; in fact, it falls in with today's
                                        > guidelines, which is that a novel should be 80,000 to
                                        > 100,000 words, which equals 325-400 pages to get
                                        > published. All of Tolkien's fiction falls into that
                                        > category except for FOTR, which only misses the mark
                                        > by 56 pages! And, if you look at the state of fantasy
                                        > writing today, you'll see that the average book is
                                        > around 600 pages (all the Robert Jordan and Terry
                                        > Brooks types), with descriptions that make Tolkien
                                        > seem downright non-descriptive. In the prefaces of TTT
                                        > and ROTK, Tolkien himself admits that the main problem
                                        > with the trilogy that he has been told is that it is
                                        > way too short, and even by us "modern" writers, who
                                        > have too low of a threshold for description (that is
                                        > our own fault, and our generation's readers fault)
                                        > LOTR is WAY too short and non-descriptive, even for my
                                        > favourite books of all time. On a literary analysis,
                                        > however, I cannot simply forget that they are my
                                        > favourite books to make Tolkien seem like a more
                                        > descriptive author than he was: he should have put
                                        > MUCH more of the history and short stories behind the
                                        > truth of LOTR and incorporated it into the bulk of the
                                        > work (i.e., nearly everything in the "Unfinished
                                        > Tales" book should have been FINISHED, re-edited for
                                        > the mass-market of the day to read, and put in their
                                        > respective places in LOTR to make it a complete book,
                                        > instead of such short (but amazing) pieces of work. If
                                        > there is even one professional writer out there today
                                        > (and again, use of the word professional to me means
                                        > that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
                                        > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                                        > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                                        > Bookstores)who says that Tolkien is too descriptive in
                                        > the works that he published during his own lifetime
                                        > (or the Sil for that matter, also) than it is someone
                                        > who has simply heard comments like the one made below,
                                        > and believed it, or has picked up the first volume of
                                        > LOTR and started reading, found it wasn't for him/her,
                                        > thus branding Tolkien too descriptive. I should
                                        > know--I did this for many years. I was very ignorant
                                        > and now I beat myself for it <lol>. Can you believe I
                                        > tried to read the Sil before LOTR when I was 14, got
                                        > bored, and decided that Tolkien sucked. It wasn't
                                        > until I was a published author that someone highly
                                        > recommended LOTR to me, and begrudgingly, I started
                                        > FOTR for the 2nd or 3rd time in my life, too. After
                                        > the initial, "I, I understand this world," Tolkien has
                                        > the gall to come to landscapes, wars, and battles, and
                                        > instead of describing them, he will say that it was
                                        > "nice" and that "many poeople died!" No, take out the
                                        > first 100 pages of FOTR and there is simply not enough
                                        > detail and description even by today's standards. In a
                                        > way, that is why the LOTR books were the most read
                                        > books of the last century besides the Bible; because
                                        > they are so readable and accessable. And that is part
                                        > of what makes Tolkien great. I am doing my
                                        > dissertation on Tolkien's writing style as it relates
                                        > to the Olde English and Middle English, and the form
                                        > of the English Lay (no one laugh there or I'll smite
                                        > you), so anyone who wants to argue this point (nicely
                                        > of course, I hate mean, biting, correcting on petty
                                        > issue-type people more than anything) I would love to
                                        > talk about it and prove my point. :-)
                                        > david
                                        >
                                        > > Tolkien put in more description of landscapes and
                                        > > such than a modern professional writer would say is
                                        > > good for a book, and I have to agree. At parts the
                                        > > books seem to drag a bit,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > =====
                                        > Have a wonderful day,
                                        > David Kaufman
                                      • geltharin2003
                                        Ummm, I know this is off topic...but why would your definition of a professional writer include them making the majority of their money from their writing? I
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Ummm, I know this is off topic...but why would your definition of a
                                          professional writer include them making the majority of their money
                                          from their writing? I mean, what if say a writer made a decent
                                          amount of money from their writing, but made more at another job
                                          that they held? Plus, I think that writers that only sell a few
                                          things are still professional writers. Not to take anything away
                                          from those that do make the majority, or all of their living from
                                          writing, just to say that those who don't, also deserve recognition.

                                          Robert/Eol

                                          --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                                          <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                                          > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                                          > > of the Century for your
                                          > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                                          > >
                                          > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                                          > > professional writer. Because
                                          > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                                          > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                                          > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                                          > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                                          > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because people
                                          > > whose opinion he valued
                                          > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                                          > > hope that it would be
                                          > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                                          > > never finished those
                                          > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                                          > > edited by his son after his
                                          > > death.
                                          > >
                                          > > Regards
                                          > > Jack
                                          > I wrote:
                                          > and again, use of the word professional to me means
                                          > that is how you make at least the bulk of your money,
                                          > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                                          > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                                          > Bookstores
                                          >
                                          > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                                          > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part of
                                          > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                                          > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the professors
                                          > often complained about it). Also, he published
                                          > articles throughout his life having to do with
                                          > philology, that is why I included "college bookstore."
                                          > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                                          > condider them prof writers because even though they
                                          > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                                          > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                                          > fine line. My definition is more for people who do not
                                          > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I have
                                          > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                                          > from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                                          > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                                          > david
                                          >
                                          > =====
                                          > Have a wonderful day,
                                          > David Kaufman
                                        • *Alconnwiel* Dana
                                          yeah i agree, fotr was very descriptive and long and everything...not that i dont like TTT and ROTK (ROTK is my fave book) but i think they could of done
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            yeah i agree, fotr was very descriptive and long and
                                            everything...not that i dont like TTT and ROTK (ROTK is my fave
                                            book) but i think they could of done better with more background
                                            info, or some more songs! but they are still great the way that they
                                            are!
                                            Dana

                                            --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "geltharin2003"
                                            <geltharin2003@y...> wrote:
                                            > True, the way it was published as three books, it is way too
                                            short.
                                            > Personally I agree, and would have loved for Tolkien to go into a
                                            > lot more detail on a lot of things. Still, they are wonderful
                                            > books. I think that when the publisher told him that it would
                                            have
                                            > to be divided into three books, he should have gone back and added
                                            a
                                            > lot more detail, at least to TTT and RoTK. And since it was going
                                            > to be divided like that anyway, it would have given him lots of
                                            room
                                            > to do this, with out the publisher trying to say that it was now
                                            too
                                            > long again. I myself would not mind reading your disertation.
                                            >
                                            > Robert/Eol
                                            >
                                          • geltharin2003
                                            I for one would love to see what you have to say about it. I don t know how much input I would have...hehe but I am sure I might have a word or two to say.
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I for one would love to see what you have to say about it. I don't
                                              know how much input I would have...hehe but I am sure I might have
                                              a word or two to say. Of course, I am no linguist as such, but I am
                                              very interested in languages.

                                              Robert

                                              --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                                              <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                              > You might want to email me privately with some
                                              > questions, as my answers might prove boring to anyone
                                              > on the list except for you, Ross, Bob, and some of the
                                              > other Tolkien scholars here. It really has little to
                                              > do with Lord of the Rings and much more to do with his
                                              > lectures in philology and books such as his "Lays of
                                              > Beleriand" and "Sir Gawain..." and his (correct vs
                                              > other scholars) interpretation of "The Homecoming of
                                              > Beorhtnoth", and how the names in Olde English
                                              > (believe it or not everyone, out of Olde, Middle and
                                              > Modern English, Shakespeare is MODERN, not old or
                                              > middle!) were the basis for all the Elves languages in
                                              > the Sil and LOTR, and how the words of all the
                                              > Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc., including all of his forms
                                              > of Elvish were never made up by Tolkien, but in fact
                                              > an attempt to reintroduce a little taste of Old
                                              > English into the world. Fascinating to some, boring to
                                              > others. If enough people want me to post my
                                              > dissertation piece by piece here, I will. I figure if
                                              > 20 people respond to this I will, if not, why don't
                                              > you and I email privately about this stuff, as I bet
                                              > you know things (lots on this list do, actually!) that
                                              > I would benefit greatly from, as my study has been
                                              > very one-tracked--as a dissertation must be, of
                                              > course. Hopefully it will turn me into Dr.Kaufman
                                              > soon!!Thanks for your emails Jack. I look forward to
                                              > emailing back and forth with either you or everyone on
                                              > this fascinating--at least to me--matter of languages
                                              > in Olde England (B.C. to 991 A.D.) and Toklkien's
                                              > England.
                                              > david
                                              > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                                              > > Hmm, perhaps. I'm sure you're right that he made
                                              > > more from his books than
                                              > > he ever did from his work as an Oxford don! But I
                                              > > don't think that Prof T
                                              > > would have written "professional writer" on his
                                              > > passport application!
                                              > >
                                              > > Never mind all that! Tell us more about your
                                              > > thesis!
                                              > > :o)
                                              > > Jack
                                              > >
                                              > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > From: david kaufman [mailto:davidjane42@y...]
                                              > > I wrote:
                                              > > and again, use of the word professional to me means
                                              > > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                                              > > money,
                                              > > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                                              > > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                                              > > Bookstores
                                              > >
                                              > > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                                              > > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                                              > > of
                                              > > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                                              > > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                                              > > professors
                                              > > often complained about it). Also, he published
                                              > > articles throughout his life having to do with
                                              > > philology, that is why I included "college
                                              > > bookstore."
                                              > > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but I
                                              > > condider them prof writers because even though they
                                              > > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                                              > > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's a
                                              > > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                                              > > not
                                              > > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                                              > > have
                                              > > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my writing
                                              > > from a much different viewpoint, only how it relates
                                              > > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                                              > > david
                                              > >
                                              > > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                                              > > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book Writer
                                              > > > of the Century for your
                                              > > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                                              > > > professional writer. Because
                                              > > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                                              > > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                                              > > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                                              > > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                                              > > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                                              > > people
                                              > > > whose opinion he valued
                                              > > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                                              > > > hope that it would be
                                              > > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR, he
                                              > > > never finished those
                                              > > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                                              > > > edited by his son after his
                                              > > > death.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Regards
                                              > > > Jack
                                              > >
                                              > > =====
                                              > > Have a wonderful day,
                                              > > David Kaufman
                                              > >
                                              > > Come and visit our Tolkien Discussions group online
                                              > > and take advantage
                                              > > of our Messages, Chat, Files, Photos, Links,
                                              > > Database, Polls, Members,
                                              > > and Calendar sections.
                                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >
                                              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TolkienDiscussions/
                                              > >
                                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > TolkienDiscussions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >
                                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > =====
                                              > Have a wonderful day,
                                              > David Kaufman
                                            • david kaufman
                                              I was only speaking in generalities...people like Scott Turow (Presumed Innocent, etc) still practices law full time, and even Grisham still takes
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Feb 2, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I was only speaking in generalities...people like
                                                Scott Turow (Presumed Innocent, etc) still practices
                                                law full time, and even Grisham still takes
                                                cases.....just talking in generalities, comparing this
                                                to all the people who write for fun rather than for
                                                any part of a profession, i.e.
                                                david
                                                --- geltharin2003 <geltharin2003@...> wrote:
                                                > Ummm, I know this is off topic...but why would your
                                                > definition of a
                                                > professional writer include them making the majority
                                                > of their money
                                                > from their writing? I mean, what if say a writer
                                                > made a decent
                                                > amount of money from their writing, but made more at
                                                > another job
                                                > that they held? Plus, I think that writers that
                                                > only sell a few
                                                > things are still professional writers. Not to take
                                                > anything away
                                                > from those that do make the majority, or all of
                                                > their living from
                                                > writing, just to say that those who don't, also
                                                > deserve recognition.
                                                >
                                                > Robert/Eol
                                                >
                                                > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david
                                                > kaufman
                                                > <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                                                > > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book
                                                > Writer
                                                > > > of the Century for your
                                                > > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                                                > > > professional writer. Because
                                                > > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                                                > > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                                                > > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                                                > > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                                                > > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                                                > people
                                                > > > whose opinion he valued
                                                > > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                                                > > > hope that it would be
                                                > > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR,
                                                > he
                                                > > > never finished those
                                                > > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                                                > > > edited by his son after his
                                                > > > death.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Regards
                                                > > > Jack
                                                > > I wrote:
                                                > > and again, use of the word professional to me
                                                > means
                                                > > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                                                > money,
                                                > > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                                                > > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                                                > > Bookstores
                                                > >
                                                > > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                                                > > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                                                > of
                                                > > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                                                > > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                                                > professors
                                                > > often complained about it). Also, he published
                                                > > articles throughout his life having to do with
                                                > > philology, that is why I included "college
                                                > bookstore."
                                                > > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but
                                                > I
                                                > > condider them prof writers because even though
                                                > they
                                                > > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                                                > > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's
                                                > a
                                                > > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                                                > not
                                                > > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                                                > have
                                                > > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my
                                                > writing
                                                > > from a much different viewpoint, only how it
                                                > relates
                                                > > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                                                > > david
                                                > >
                                                > > =====
                                                > > Have a wonderful day,
                                                > > David Kaufman
                                                >
                                                >


                                                =====
                                                Have a wonderful day,
                                                David Kaufman
                                              • geltharin2003
                                                Ah, ok, got ya. That makes sense now. :) Robert
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Feb 3, 2004
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Ah, ok, got ya. That makes sense now. :)

                                                  Robert

                                                  --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                                                  <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                                  > I was only speaking in generalities...people like
                                                  > Scott Turow (Presumed Innocent, etc) still practices
                                                  > law full time, and even Grisham still takes
                                                  > cases.....just talking in generalities, comparing this
                                                  > to all the people who write for fun rather than for
                                                  > any part of a profession, i.e.
                                                  > david
                                                  > --- geltharin2003 <geltharin2003@y...> wrote:
                                                  > > Ummm, I know this is off topic...but why would your
                                                  > > definition of a
                                                  > > professional writer include them making the majority
                                                  > > of their money
                                                  > > from their writing? I mean, what if say a writer
                                                  > > made a decent
                                                  > > amount of money from their writing, but made more at
                                                  > > another job
                                                  > > that they held? Plus, I think that writers that
                                                  > > only sell a few
                                                  > > things are still professional writers. Not to take
                                                  > > anything away
                                                  > > from those that do make the majority, or all of
                                                  > > their living from
                                                  > > writing, just to say that those who don't, also
                                                  > > deserve recognition.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Robert/Eol
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david
                                                  > > kaufman
                                                  > > <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- Jack <jack@t...> wrote:
                                                  > > > > You have, I'm sure, read Tom Shippey's book
                                                  > > Writer
                                                  > > > > of the Century for your
                                                  > > > > thesis? I would like to hear more about this...
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Interesting that you classify yourself as a
                                                  > > > > professional writer. Because
                                                  > > > > Prof T was NOT. He was an academic writing
                                                  > > > > "Translations from the Elvish"
                                                  > > > > in his spare time from teaching and research in
                                                  > > > > Anglo-Saxon. He didn't
                                                  > > > > finish the Unfinished Tales initially because
                                                  > > people
                                                  > > > > whose opinion he valued
                                                  > > > > (one assumes he meant his publisher) gave him no
                                                  > > > > hope that it would be
                                                  > > > > published. He wrote LOTR instead. After LOTR,
                                                  > > he
                                                  > > > > never finished those
                                                  > > > > Tales to his satisfaction - the Silmarillion was
                                                  > > > > edited by his son after his
                                                  > > > > death.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Regards
                                                  > > > > Jack
                                                  > > > I wrote:
                                                  > > > and again, use of the word professional to me
                                                  > > means
                                                  > > > that is how you make at least the bulk of your
                                                  > > money,
                                                  > > > or have magazine articles/stories and/or books at
                                                  > > > Borders and Barnes and Noble and/or College
                                                  > > > Bookstores
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > That is my definition of "today's" prof. writer.
                                                  > > > Tolkien certainly made more money in the last part
                                                  > > of
                                                  > > > his life from royalties from his books than in the
                                                  > > > meager Oxford salary (I went there, and the
                                                  > > professors
                                                  > > > often complained about it). Also, he published
                                                  > > > articles throughout his life having to do with
                                                  > > > philology, that is why I included "college
                                                  > > bookstore."
                                                  > > > My parents run the Child Study Center at Yale, but
                                                  > > I
                                                  > > > condider them prof writers because even though
                                                  > > they
                                                  > > > still teach, they have written most of the modern
                                                  > > > "accepted" texts on intelligence testing. So it's
                                                  > > a
                                                  > > > fine line. My definition is more for people who do
                                                  > > not
                                                  > > > publish--that is really the line, I guess. BTW, I
                                                  > > have
                                                  > > > read Shippey's book(s), but am coming at my
                                                  > > writing
                                                  > > > from a much different viewpoint, only how it
                                                  > > relates
                                                  > > > to the ancient Lays and Epic poems.
                                                  > > > david
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > =====
                                                  > > > Have a wonderful day,
                                                  > > > David Kaufman
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > =====
                                                  > Have a wonderful day,
                                                  > David Kaufman
                                                • Terry Fowler
                                                  ... Do post away! I d love to read some real scholarship on JRRT. Terry Fowler
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Feb 3, 2004
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, david kaufman
                                                    <davidjane42@y...> wrote:
                                                    > well, only 2 people so far want it...including you!
                                                    > but I'll wait a few days, post something, and if
                                                    > people like it, then I'll continue!

                                                    Do post away! I'd love to read some real scholarship on JRRT.

                                                    Terry Fowler
                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.