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Re: Typo?

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  • Arwen Undomiel
    Here are my thoughts on this: cats tend to own their masters as much as their masters own them. Cats think of themselves as better than us; we don t own them,
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 1, 2002
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      Here are my thoughts on this: cats tend to own their masters as much
      as their masters own them. Cats think of themselves as better than
      us; we don't own them, they own us. Maybe that's what Tolkien meant.
      Sauron would allow Shelob to guard it, but he wouldn't cater to her
      wishes.
      Arwen

      --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "kemdawn" <kemdawn@y...> wrote:
      > I think that Tolkien was trying to emphasize that though Sauron
      > referred to her as though she was his pet, she would not have
      claimed
      > him as her master.
      >
      > --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Lord Torlek" <rpacyna@y...> wrote:
      > > I THINK I found a typo in The Two Towers! This is from my 1982
      > Ballantine
      > > AUTHORIZED edition.
      > >
      > > Chapter: Shelob's Lair
      > >
      > > During the description of Shelob and how Sauron lets Shelob guard
      > the way:
      > >
      > > "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he
      > calls her, but she
      > > owns him not)...."
      > >
      > > Shouldn't it read, "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to
      his
      > cat (his cat he
      > > calls her, but HE owns HER not)...."
      > >
      > > !!!!!!
      > >
      > > Rob
    • Jack
      Dogs have owners. Cats have staff ... From: Anna [mailto:IdrilCelebrindal@aol.com] Sent: 02 November 2002 02:27 To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 1, 2002
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        Dogs have owners.  Cats have staff
        :o)
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Anna [mailto:IdrilCelebrindal@...]
        Sent: 02 November 2002 02:27
        To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Typo?

        Cat's own people, right? 

        Anyway, that's been in every edition I've seen (1973 Ballentine
        paperbacks, the hardcover redbook and the all-in-one Houghton-Mifflin
        with Sir Ian on the front.)

        Idril/Anna

        --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Lord Torlek" <rpacyna@y...> wrote:
        > I THINK I found a typo in The Two Towers!  This is from my 1982
        Ballantine
        > AUTHORIZED edition.
        >
        > Chapter: Shelob's Lair
        >
        > During the description of Shelob and how Sauron lets Shelob guard
        the way:
        >
        > "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he
        calls her, but she
        > owns him not)...."
        >
        > Shouldn't it read, "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his
        cat (his cat he
        > calls her, but HE owns HER not)...."
        >
        > !!!!!!
        >
        > Rob


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      • Kat
        ... Precisely! I ve also seen this in places, right now I m thinking both the KJV Bible and other places in JRRT s work. basically, own used to mean
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 2, 2002
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          > i think what you're seeing here is an archaic
          > speech form (snip)

          Precisely! I've also seen this in places, right now I'm thinking
          both the KJV Bible and other places in JRRT's work. basically, 'own'
          used to mean 'recognize' - it worked both ways.

          As a purely made up example = I could own you as my subject
          (recognize/admit that you belong to me) AND you could own me as your
          master (acknowledge that I control you)

          Now, though, it's become a signal for control and 'ownership,' a term
          of belonging, not acknowledging. So the older meaning, which worked
          slightly differently in sentences and speech, doesn't make much sense
          anymore.

          hope that helped!
          Kat
        • Nathan Adams
          I prefer a quote from some John Wayne film: You don t live with cats, much as room with them. Nate
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 2, 2002
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            I prefer a quote from some John Wayne film:

            "You don't live with cats, much as room with them."

            Nate

            On Sat, 2002-11-02 at 01:34, Jack wrote:
            > Dogs have owners. Cats have staff
            > :o)
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Anna [mailto:IdrilCelebrindal@...]
            > Sent: 02 November 2002 02:27
            > To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Typo?
            >
            >
            > Cat's own people, right?
            >
            > Anyway, that's been in every edition I've seen (1973 Ballentine
            > paperbacks, the hardcover redbook and the all-in-one Houghton-Mifflin
            > with Sir Ian on the front.)
            >
            > Idril/Anna
            >
            > --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Lord Torlek" <rpacyna@y...> wrote:
            > > I THINK I found a typo in The Two Towers! This is from my 1982
            > Ballantine
            > > AUTHORIZED edition.
            > >
            > > Chapter: Shelob's Lair
            > >
            > > During the description of Shelob and how Sauron lets Shelob guard
            > the way:
            > >
            > > "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he
            > calls her, but she
            > > owns him not)...."
            > >
            > > Shouldn't it read, "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his
            > cat (his cat he
            > > calls her, but HE owns HER not)...."
            > >
            > > !!!!!!
            > >
            > > Rob
            >
            >
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          • Anna
            That would be the sort of joke that Tolkien would really like. In the archaic sense of the word it would mean that she doesn t acknowledge him and in the
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 2, 2002
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              That would be the sort of joke that Tolkien would really like. In
              the archaic sense of the word it would mean that she doesn't
              acknowledge him and in the modern sense it means that when you have a
              cat as a pet it owns you more than you own it. It's probably just a
              little something to make his fellow professors chuckle.

              Idril/Anna
            • Sharon
              Those are both great! I also like this one (not sure of the origin): When you call a dog, he answers. When you call a cat, he takes a message and gets back to
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 2, 2002
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                Those are both great! I also like this one (not sure of the origin):

                "When you call a dog, he answers. When you call a cat, he takes a
                message and gets back to you later."

                Sharon

                --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., Nathan Adams <damfino@n...> wrote:
                > I prefer a quote from some John Wayne film:
                >
                > "You don't live with cats, much as room with them."
                >
                > Nate
                >
                > On Sat, 2002-11-02 at 01:34, Jack wrote:
                > > Dogs have owners. Cats have staff
                > > :o)
              • Isabel Cristina
                If you read more of Tolkien, you will see this expression used more than once. In older English, people used to say that you owned someone as your lord or
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 3, 2002
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                  If you read more of Tolkien, you will see this expression used more
                  than once. In older English, people used to say that you owned
                  someone as your lord or master, which is what Tolkien meant here.
                  Doesn't it occur to anyone that Tolkien did not write in early 21st
                  century language? You won't find words like wannabe and chick in the
                  books either. Why don't you all go back to comic books, which seems
                  to be the intellectual standard in here?


                  --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Lord Torlek" <rpacyna@y...> wrote:
                  > I THINK I found a typo in The Two Towers! This is from my 1982
                  Ballantine
                  > AUTHORIZED edition.
                  >
                  > Chapter: Shelob's Lair
                  >
                  > During the description of Shelob and how Sauron lets Shelob guard
                  the way:
                  >
                  > "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he
                  calls her, but she
                  > owns him not)...."
                  >
                  > Shouldn't it read, "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his
                  cat (his cat he
                  > calls her, but HE owns HER not)...."
                  >
                  > !!!!!!
                  >
                  > Rob
                • SanKni2313@aol.com
                  Even though I have not had much time to post lately, I find your comments to be very insultiing to the group and people that I have come to love. We do have
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 3, 2002
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                    Even though I have not had much time to post lately, I find your comments to be very insultiing to the group and people that I have come to love.  We do have posting rules here, and we do insist on courtesy and respect being shown between all members.  If you do not like this group, there is no reason why you should feel forced to stay here.  Anyway, there have been many, many intelligent discussions going on on this list, but most of us don't mind a little light hearted joking/teasing as well.  We are all very serious about Tolkien, and this list is full of very knowledgable members, as well as members that are new to the world of Tolkien and eager to learn (in the non-threatening/non-insulting environment that we have here).  But that doesn't mean that we don't enjoy sharing a laugh, and what is wrong with that?  And by the way, someone in this discussion had already pointed out the information that you shared.

                    Respectfully,
                    Elollyra

                    In a message dated 11/3/02 7:45:27 AM Central Standard Time, tinkerbelle778@... writes:


                    If you read more of Tolkien, you will see this expression used more
                    than once.  In older English, people used to say that you owned
                    someone as your lord or master, which is what Tolkien meant here. 
                    Doesn't it occur to anyone that Tolkien did not write in early 21st
                    century language?  You won't find words like wannabe and chick in the
                    books either.  Why don't you all go back to comic books, which seems
                    to be the intellectual standard in here?




                  • david schnyer
                    in addition to my comments about friends having fun i might add that we are quite familiar with the english language in spite of reports that it hasn t been
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 3, 2002
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                      in addition to my comments about "friends having
                      fun" i might add that we are quite familiar with
                      the english language in spite of reports that it
                      hasn't been spoken in america for years.
                      "gunner"

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                    • tobihlk@aol.com
                      hey now i spake bootiful english here in america.....lol j/k debbie
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 3, 2002
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                        hey now i spake bootiful english here in america.....lol  j/k

                        debbie
                      • Arwen Undomiel
                        I resent that! You re insulting everyone here! Not even just one person, but the group as a whole. You say that comic books are the intellectual standard here;
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 3, 2002
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                          I resent that! You're insulting everyone here! Not even just one
                          person, but the group as a whole. You say that comic books are the
                          intellectual standard here; you obviously haven't read most of the
                          posts in the archive. There have been some pretty good discussions
                          here!! And some of us, like me, are new to Tolkien, and might be
                          looking for help understanding his books, or just more information
                          about them. It's not right for you to insult everyone like you did.
                          Arwen

                          --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Isabel Cristina"
                          <tinkerbelle778@y...> wrote:
                          > If you read more of Tolkien, you will see this expression used more
                          > than once. In older English, people used to say that you owned
                          > someone as your lord or master, which is what Tolkien meant here.
                          > Doesn't it occur to anyone that Tolkien did not write in early 21st
                          > century language? You won't find words like wannabe and chick in
                          the
                          > books either. Why don't you all go back to comic books, which
                          seems
                          > to be the intellectual standard in here?
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Lord Torlek" <rpacyna@y...> wrote:
                          > > I THINK I found a typo in The Two Towers! This is from my 1982
                          > Ballantine
                          > > AUTHORIZED edition.
                          > >
                          > > Chapter: Shelob's Lair
                          > >
                          > > During the description of Shelob and how Sauron lets Shelob guard
                          > the way:
                          > >
                          > > "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he
                          > calls her, but she
                          > > owns him not)...."
                          > >
                          > > Shouldn't it read, "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to
                          his
                          > cat (his cat he
                          > > calls her, but HE owns HER not)...."
                          > >
                          > > !!!!!!
                          > >
                          > > Rob
                        • Tripleleo60@cs.com
                          In a message dated 11/3/02 8:07:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, ... Easy Grrl! She s already history. Take a few deep breaths. Sir Question of the Mark, K of T
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 3, 2002
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                            In a message dated 11/3/02 8:07:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, arwen1858@... writes:


                            I resent that! You're insulting everyone here


                            Easy Grrl! She's already history. Take a few deep breaths.

                            Sir Question of the Mark, K of T

                          • Arwen Undomiel
                            Allright :) I had to catch up on reading the last 3 days worth of posts, so I replied to some before I read all the others. Therefore, I didn t know she was
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 3, 2002
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                              Allright :) I had to catch up on reading the last 3 days worth of
                              posts, so I replied to some before I read all the others. Therefore,
                              I didn't know she was gone til after I posted.
                              Arwen

                              --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., Tripleleo60@c... wrote:
                              > In a message dated 11/3/02 8:07:53 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                              > arwen1858@y... writes:
                              >
                              >
                              > > I resent that! You're insulting everyone here
                              >
                              > Easy Grrl! She's already history. Take a few deep breaths.
                              >
                              > Sir Question of the Mark, K of T
                            • Jack
                              Has Isabel left us? Or has she just gone back to lurking? And if she has gone, can we stop being intellectual now? ... Jack ... From: Arwen Undomiel
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 3, 2002
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                                Has Isabel left us?  Or has she just gone back to lurking?
                                 
                                And if she has gone, can we stop being intellectual now?
                                :o)
                                Jack
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Arwen Undomiel [mailto:arwen1858@...]
                                Sent: 04 November 2002 06:03
                                To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Typo?

                                Allright :) I had to catch up on reading the last 3 days worth of
                                posts, so I replied to some before I read all the others. Therefore,
                                I didn't know she was gone til after I posted.
                                Arwen

                                --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., Tripleleo60@c... wrote:
                                > In a message dated 11/3/02 8:07:53 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                                > arwen1858@y... writes:
                                >
                                >
                                > > I resent that! You're insulting everyone here
                                >
                                > Easy Grrl! She's already history. Take a few deep breaths.
                                >
                                > Sir Question of the Mark, K of T


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                              • Tengu Master
                                In the matter of correct English the English are slightly confused. Their English has been corrupted by French and Scots or North American is often closer
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 4, 2002
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                                  In the matter of "correct" English the English are slightly confused. Their "English" has been corrupted by French and Scots or North American is often closer to root Anglo-Saxon than "English".

                                  For example "gray" is as correct or more correct than "grey". The examples fill books.

                                  Oh and there is the little matter that Celtic scholars encouraged the English to write their native tongue when Norman French was in danger of taking over.

                                  Sorry for the history lecture ;)

                                  Before anyone takes offense neither spelling bothers me they are both equally "correct" :)

                                  Tengumaster (Antique Tolkien fan who loves the books and appreciates the film(s))

                                   

                                   david schnyer <gunnera4@...> wrote:

                                  in addition to my comments about "friends having
                                  fun" i might add that we are quite familiar with
                                  the english language in spite of reports that it
                                  hasn't been spoken in america for years.
                                  "gunner"

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                                • Bruce Alan Wilson
                                  Also, an archaic meaning of owns is acknowledges, recognizes . ... From: Anna To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:27 PM
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 4, 2002
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                                    Also, an archaic meaning of "owns" is "acknowledges, recognizes".
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Anna
                                    Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:27 PM
                                    Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Typo?

                                    Cat's own people, right? 

                                    Anyway, that's been in every edition I've seen (1973 Ballentine
                                    paperbacks, the hardcover redbook and the all-in-one Houghton-Mifflin
                                    with Sir Ian on the front.)

                                    Idril/Anna

                                    --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Lord Torlek" <rpacyna@y...> wrote:
                                    > I THINK I found a typo in The Two Towers!  This is from my 1982
                                    Ballantine
                                    > AUTHORIZED edition.
                                    >
                                    > Chapter: Shelob's Lair
                                    >
                                    > During the description of Shelob and how Sauron lets Shelob guard
                                    the way:
                                    >
                                    > "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he
                                    calls her, but she
                                    > owns him not)...."
                                    >
                                    > Shouldn't it read, "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his
                                    cat (his cat he
                                    > calls her, but HE owns HER not)...."
                                    >
                                    > !!!!!!
                                    >
                                    > Rob


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                                  • david schnyer
                                    no offense intended and none taken, my remark was meant soley to slip another burr under isabel s saddle as she went out the door to leave in a huff, (a 6
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 4, 2002
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                                      no offense intended and none taken, my remark was
                                      meant soley to slip another burr under "isabel's"
                                      saddle as she went out the door to leave in a
                                      huff, (a 6 cylinder huff i think.) and not to
                                      twit our british friends about the differences in
                                      our dialects of english. isabel was, i think,
                                      likely suffering from having trollish blood in
                                      her family line.
                                      "gunner"

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                                    • Tengu Master
                                      Still valid in some dialects today( if it doesn t get educated out that is) lol Tengu Sorry I have a bee in my bonnet about generations of kids being
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 4, 2002
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                                        Still valid in some dialects today( if it doesn't get "educated" out that is) lol

                                        Tengu

                                        Sorry I have a bee in my bonnet about generations of kids being humilated for getting it "wrong".

                                         Bruce Alan Wilson <brucewilson@...> wrote:

                                        Also, an archaic meaning of "owns" is "acknowledges, recognizes".
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Anna
                                        Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:27 PM
                                        Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Typo?

                                        Cat's own people, right? 

                                        Anyway, that's been in every edition I've seen (1973 Ballentine
                                        paperbacks, the hardcover redbook and the all-in-one Houghton-Mifflin
                                        with Sir Ian on the front.)

                                        Idril/Anna

                                        --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Lord Torlek" <rpacyna@y...> wrote:
                                        > I THINK I found a typo in The Two Towers!  This is from my 1982
                                        Ballantine
                                        > AUTHORIZED edition.
                                        >
                                        > Chapter: Shelob's Lair
                                        >
                                        > During the description of Shelob and how Sauron lets Shelob guard
                                        the way:
                                        >
                                        > "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he
                                        calls her, but she
                                        > owns him not)...."
                                        >
                                        > Shouldn't it read, "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his
                                        cat (his cat he
                                        > calls her, but HE owns HER not)...."
                                        >
                                        > !!!!!!
                                        >
                                        > Rob


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                                      • Jack
                                        Gotten, so alien to the British ear today, would have been very familiar to Shakespeare ... From: Tengu Master [mailto:tengumaster@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 04
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 4, 2002
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                                          Gotten, so alien to the British ear today, would have been very familiar to Shakespeare
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Tengu Master [mailto:tengumaster@...]
                                          Sent: 04 November 2002 10:29
                                          To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Typo?

                                          In the matter of "correct" English the English are slightly confused. Their "English" has been corrupted by French and Scots or North American is often closer to root Anglo-Saxon than "English".

                                          For example "gray" is as correct or more correct than "grey". The examples fill books.

                                          Oh and there is the little matter that Celtic scholars encouraged the English to write their native tongue when Norman French was in danger of taking over.

                                          Sorry for the history lecture ;)

                                          Before anyone takes offense neither spelling bothers me they are both equally "correct" :)

                                          Tengumaster (Antique Tolkien fan who loves the books and appreciates the film(s))

                                           david schnyer <gunnera4@...> wrote:

                                          in addition to my comments about "friends having
                                          fun" i might add that we are quite familiar with
                                          the english language in spite of reports that it
                                          hasn't been spoken in america for years.
                                          "gunner"

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                                        • bungo_burrows
                                          I find it interesteing the parallels between the relationship between Sauron and Shelob and the relationship between Morgoth and Ungoliant. Sauron was
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                            I find it interesteing the parallels between the relationship between
                                            Sauron and Shelob and the relationship between Morgoth and Ungoliant.
                                            Sauron was Morgoth's main lieutenant while Shelob is the last great
                                            offspring of Ungoliant and they all loved to suck the light out of
                                            the world. Yet in both cases, the two couldn't stand one another but
                                            were content to aid each other to get what they desired.

                                            --- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Anna"
                                            <IdrilCelebrindal@a...> wrote:
                                            > Cat's own people, right?
                                            >
                                            > Anyway, that's been in every edition I've seen (1973 Ballentine
                                            > paperbacks, the hardcover redbook and the all-in-one Houghton-
                                            Mifflin
                                            > with Sir Ian on the front.)
                                            >
                                            > Idril/Anna
                                            >
                                            > --- In TolkienDiscussions@y..., "Lord Torlek" <rpacyna@y...> wrote:
                                            > > I THINK I found a typo in The Two Towers! This is from my 1982
                                            > Ballantine
                                            > > AUTHORIZED edition.
                                            > >
                                            > > Chapter: Shelob's Lair
                                            > >
                                            > > During the description of Shelob and how Sauron lets Shelob guard
                                            > the way:
                                            > >
                                            > > "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he
                                            > calls her, but she
                                            > > owns him not)...."
                                            > >
                                            > > Shouldn't it read, "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to
                                            his
                                            > cat (his cat he
                                            > > calls her, but HE owns HER not)...."
                                            > >
                                            > > !!!!!!
                                            > >
                                            > > Rob
                                          • Bruce A. Wilson
                                            It is obvious that you haven t had much experience with cats. ... From: bungo_burrows [mailto:yesgaz@itcanada.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:05 PM
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                              It is obvious that you haven't had much experience with cats.

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                              From: bungo_burrows [mailto:yesgaz@...]
                                              Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:05 PM
                                              To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Re: Typo?

                                              > > "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he
                                              > calls her, but she
                                              > > owns him not)...."
                                              > >
                                              > > Shouldn't it read, "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to
                                              his
                                              > cat (his cat he
                                              > > calls her, but HE owns HER not)...."
                                              > >
                                              > > !!!!!!
                                              > >
                                              > > Rob



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                                            • david schnyer
                                              During the description of Shelob and how Sauron lets Shelob guard ... And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he calls her, but she owns
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                                "During the description of Shelob and how Sauron
                                                lets Shelob guard
                                                > the way:
                                                > >
                                                "And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his
                                                cat (his cat he calls her, but she owns him
                                                not)...."
                                                Shouldn't it read, "And sometimes as a man may
                                                cast a dainty to
                                                his cat (his cat he calls her, but HE owns HER
                                                not)...."
                                                !!!!!!
                                                Rob"
                                                -------------------------------
                                                i think we had this discussion a while back, the
                                                key is in an archaic turn of the english
                                                language. "she owns him not", read as "does not
                                                recognize/accept him as her owner/master". shelob
                                                exists as an independent creature owing
                                                allegiance to no-one, whatever sauron might
                                                think.
                                                "gunner"


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