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Re: [Thoughts_of_Pudding] Re: Stranger than Fanfiction - Chapter 2 teaser

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  • Ralph S.
    Kevin, you should know that I *agree* with you. Re: abusive relationships between Harry and Hermione... all I wanted to say is that there s some potential
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 8 3:49 AM
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      Kevin,

      you should know that I *agree* with you. Re: "abusive" relationships
      between Harry and Hermione... all I wanted to say is that there's some
      potential there for one, given the circumstances. Doesn't mean it HAS to
      happen, or that it's overly likely. In fact I just wanted to point out
      that, while it's POSSIBLE in a H/H, it is a GIVEN if she marries Ron, or
      Neville, or Cormac (which also supports the idea of Hermione
      being.../very/ susceptible... to an abusive relationship.) So, she
      *should* be with Harry. That's hardly the only reason either, not even
      the main one really; these two just...fit, right down being able to
      /understand/ not knowing about things every pureblood would. Neither Ron
      nor Ginny would be able to, nor do I think *willing* to, learn about
      their respective spouse's background; that is, the Muggle world.
      Ron blew it the moment he called her Mudblood. Ginny blew it when she
      was being a bully to Hermione, Luna, and Fleur, probably others.

      Re: whether we should ignore books 6 and 7, or not. You'll notice that I
      try to not dismiss them, even though it pains me to do so *grin*
      The major problem, as we both stated, is that NONE of the characters
      (##1-4) seem to have anything to do with their counterparts in ##5-7 (or
      thereabouts). Makes one wonder if they were written by the same author.
      But then, we should remember JK pretty much wrote ##1-4 in a single
      session (more or less), then went on hiatus for quite some time (that
      was when PS-the-movie came out, and with it much of the fame and the
      money and demands for more)... so perhaps it's not surprising this happened.

      Anyway. IF we are to dismiss books 5-7 then HMS Harmony sails without
      any problems, especially at the end of #4. Old Crow has quite believable
      fics that go from there, IIRC. And Harry/Ginny? That ship -as you
      rightly point out- hasn't even been built yet. There is no Ginny until
      the end of #4, so no Harry/Ginny except in the minds of "romantic" fic
      authors who want to see the damsel with the knight, or perhaps those who
      just wanted to put Harry with any girl (to show they could).
      The Ron/Hermione ship should have sunk by the end of #4, or rather, at
      Hallowe'en that year. By that point, I thought maybe Neville and Ginny
      should give it a try (assuming he wasn't as much of an idiot as Harry,
      never mind Ron, at the Ball). Didn't make sense for them not to,
      actually, especially considering their age.

      If we DO include books 5 to 7, however, things get difficult. Now,
      Hermione only has the earlier years to her name, when she supported
      Harry unconditionally. Because now she certainly doesn't. There are bits
      and pieces, moments when she reverts back to her earlier self, but the
      "unconditional" part just isn't there anymore. I won't speculate why
      that might be - simply growing up, thinking Harry doesn't want her (and
      he doesn't really show it either, not that I don't understand that- but
      in the end, he /doesn't/), or simply because of an authors manipulations ---
      at the end of #7, I myself wouldn't want to be with Hermione. That's
      also the potentialfor abusiveness I was talking about earlier, right there.
      Harry is broken from the start (of #5). A supportive girlfriend would
      have been a great help (such as Hermione at this point in time).
      Then, it only got worse. Ginny didn't make things better; if anything,
      she made things WORSE, if only Harry couldn't talk to her about
      /anything/. Again, Hermione would -probably should- have been a great
      help, but she had her own adolescent issues to deal with and Harry would
      NEVER have asked, so that ship literally sailed without them. I'd love
      to include the whole "Tent" situation here, but unfortunately, it
      doesn't make ANY sense. But perhaps it was simply a matter of Harry and
      Hermione being unable to step up to Ron- they are both without much
      self-confidence, never mind self-esteem,so that might be an explanation.
      Of course, discounting /anything else/, at THAT point any Ron/Hermione
      ship was doomed to either not sail at all or being VERY bad for Hermione.
      The Harry/Ginny ship on the other hand seems to have died somewhere
      along the way. I still wonder if Harry kept looking at the map in some
      sort of remembrance of what was, but never will be. He never even looked
      at the girl after the battle. So at this point I think, with Hermione
      being...unavailable, at least for the time being, he'd probably withdraw
      into himself, shutting people out.
      Barely any other ships seem to be canon-supported... perhaps Harry/Luna-
      and you're right, Kevin, the situation there is much like the one with
      Hermione. Harry/Cho.... I won't ever understand why he treated her the
      way he did, ignored her, even, so as a ship it cannot sail. Guess they
      were both unable to talk about it, and I guess Harry's crush didn't help
      matters any. (Of course, they were young, and I'm not saying they
      shouldn't have tried, or that I dislike anything about the idea in
      general... but given everything, it shouldn't have lasted. Fortunately,
      it didn't.)




      On 7/8/2009 10:21 AM, third_realm_guardian wrote:
      > Hidy hidy,
      >
      > @Ralph:
      >
      > I was reading this and, while I respect your views regarding Hermione and can certainly see them, they aren't mine, personally, but I admit them to be valid and possible.
      >
      > However, one thing you said struck me: "One question that definitely needs answering is "do we consider books ##6 and 7 or do we not?" We can't go arguing pro-Hermione discounting them, then argue contra-Ginny *based* on them. That just doesn't work."
      >
      > One MAJOR flaw in your conjecture here is that books five, six and seven are the ONLY stories we have where there is ANY Ginny development. Books one through four, there is NOTHING about her. She's nothing more than an extra character who shows herself as any standard girl with a crush, gets told about love potions by her mother with Hermione (and one must wonder why that tidbit was even added as it isn't endearing, it's illegal, immoral and plain out wrong,) and a dance partner with Neville to the Yule Ball.
      >
      > Book five, she pops out of nowhere and becomes this massive powerhouse in the DA, but mediocre in all other abilities before that, a fireball with a big temper like the other Weasleys, enjoys having a boyfriend to snog and fought at the Ministry.
      >
      > In books six and seven, we have the majority of her development and, truth be told, ANY development. We see her going from boyfriends (and, please note she broke up with Seamus and got together with Harry just a VERY short while later,) becoming this wonderful girl and such, but the sad fact is, this:
      >
      > By dismissing Hermione from the last two books to keep her more in character with the first five, by doing the same to and with Ginny, we actually have NOTHING to work with!
      >
      > The very nature of Hermione and Ginny in those books shows us Ginny came out of nowhere, played massive pick-up to become a worthy character to be on screen, and became another potential interest out of it. And honestly, by ignoring Hermione's persona in those last two books and, thereby doing the same with Ginny (doing just as your comment stated,) we realize that we DON'T bash her, we simply create an OFC based on the little we know. 1 - she grew up learning love potions were okay and that they led to a romantic and happy ending, 2 - she had a crush on Harry since before she met him for years and 3 - By comments from family and the very NATURE of family structures in good ones, she would be given things the others can't and would be rather spoiled in many cases (especially when you consider she is the first girl in generations) she would HAVE this "mine!" issue like many two-year olds have.
      >
      > All of the characters were OC from books six and seven when compared to the other five. Hermione was a shrew who belittled Harry and even CHEATED to give Ron a position on the Quidditch team he was very bad at and practically pissed his pants in out of fear, Ron was a better friend to Harry and Hermione (aside from walking out, which was very IN character,) Harry was pissy at everyone and seemed to only care about getting laid, Dumbledore actually paid attention to Harry, the Malfoys turned out to have regrets of their actions, Snape turned out to be a good guy when he NEVER WAS BEFORE, Luna was suddenly friends with everyone and trusted (though I admit to seeing that as a possibility after finally gaining friends during fifth year though it didn't seem to happen at all during that year, only after in book six.)
      >
      > And last, but certainly not least, the biggest OOC person was Ginny. She was suddenly more popular, strong, fiery, had a bond strong enough to insult Hermione to her face, kissed Harry out of nowhere when she knew it wasn't proper for their relationship at the time (unless she felt she had a reason to that may let it work to her favor?) and was suddenly important to the plot when we KNOW she was nowhere in the story until fifth year aside from a character mentioned in passing and the culprit at the end of the second book.
      >
      > Simply put, discounting Bitch!Hermione from books six and seven isn't a hypocrisy, it's simply pointing out that JKR was a damned fool women and did what she could to salvage the characters all so she could have one big, happy, Weasley family.
      >
      > Ron marries Hermione
      > Ginny marries Harry
      > George marries Angelina
      > Bill marries Fleur
      >
      > Every legal-age character of the proper gender married a Weasley. Fleur was introduced, was a wonderful, pretty girl, married a Weasley who she had no real way of meeting, by the way. Any character that was important became a bloody Weasley (though, Ginny became a Potter, but still.) And let's face it, Ginny and Harry are related pretty closely, if I remember right. Via marriage, yes, but people are commenting about interbreeding and seem to fail to realize that fact.
      >
      > It is my firm and sound belief that the life debt Hermione owed to Harry manifested itself in such a way that she resolved to do anything to help him in his life. If that meant marrying a Weasel to stay a part of his life and family (as he was obviously willing to give up on a date with Cho for Hermione, I can be sure Ginny, or others, would take offense with his relationship with Hermione going forward,) then she did it.
      >
      > I don't think they (Harry and Hermione) would have had any form of an abusive relationship. That point you mentioned I will say out right isn't something I can visualize, but I DO say your idea of her needing someone in her life holds merit. I would think the same thing about Luna, to be honest. I think that girl just needed a friend, which is why I will always do my best to write her with Harry and Hermione in my stories.
      >
      > Adieu,
      >
      > Kevin - Paladeus
      >
    • skarphedinn13
      ... You are right about it. I would mention leader, organizer and fighter Neville, imho he is the biggest OC of the last two books. This is one of the main
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 8 6:00 AM
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        > All of the characters were OC from books six and seven when compared to the other five. Hermione was a shrew who belittled Harry and even CHEATED to give Ron a position on the Quidditch team he was very bad at and practically pissed his pants in out of fear, Ron was a better friend to Harry and Hermione (aside from walking out, which was very IN character,) Harry was pissy at everyone and seemed to only care about getting laid, Dumbledore actually paid attention to Harry, the Malfoys turned out to have regrets of their actions, Snape turned out to be a good guy when he NEVER WAS BEFORE, Luna was suddenly friends with everyone and trusted (though I admit to seeing that as a possibility after finally gaining friends during fifth year though it didn't seem to happen at all during that year, only after in book six.)
        >

        You are right about it. I would mention leader, organizer and fighter Neville, imho he is the biggest OC of the last two books. This is one of the main reasons that the last two books have failed. I think the reason JKR created OC characters, because without it her original idea about the end of the story (one big, happy, Weasley family) could not really have worked after the 5th book...
        An another interesting thing is that JKR bashed almost all main characters at the end of the series (Marauders, Harry, Ron, Hermione etc.). Ron is unlucky, because everybody remember his "betrayal" (and his marriage with Hr...), therefore he became one of the most unpopular character of the series. In contrast, although Harry is an idiot, who did nothing to prepare himself for his destiny, remained a hero ( or a poor manipulated martyr) for almost everybody.
      • skarphedinn13
        ... I totally agree. Furthermore it is very difficult to like a such heroine , who has no major role in the story. Finally I would mention that character
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 8 7:19 AM
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          --- In Thoughts_of_Pudding@yahoogroups.com, "J B" <gphoenix51@...> wrote:
          >
          > For one thing, I can stand here and say "Oh, I hate Ginny because of the Potions she used on Harry". I can say this, that and the other. I'm well aware that lots of Fanon run Ginny into the ground because lots of people hate her. So, I'll say this right now. I don't hate Ginny.
          >
          > Because, I DON'T KNOW WHO GINNY WEASLEY IS!
          >
          > Do you? Because I sure as hell don't. What's Ginny's favorite class? What classes does she even take? What's her favorite book? What's her dream for the future? What are some of her Hobbies (besides Quidditch!)
          >
          > I don't like Ginny, because she is a cardboard box character that can be filled with anything and it will make sense, because there is no Cannon evidence that she is anything but a Quidditch Player, has long shiny red hair, and has dated a few guys. She wears a flowery perfume that Harry has never smelled before, and is apparently a smell that he's attracted to. Her favorite spell is that Bat Bogey Hex. What else do we know about her? We think she's fun, only because we're told this, we don't hang around her enough to know any different. Even though Harry's been around her for 5 years before he "suddenly" falls head over heels in love.
          >

          I totally agree. Furthermore it is very difficult to like a such "heroine", who has no major role in the story. Finally I would mention that character portrayal is not JKR strong point, there is about 6 or 7 characters in the series, who we really know.


          > The Love Potion Question. I can answer why it's so prevalent in Fannon. Up until 6th year, Ginny apparently wasn't worth the paper she was printed on. Harry paid absolutely zero attention to her and anything about her. And since the books are from his perspective, she wasn't anything important since he didn't pay any attention to her. Then suddenly, Harry turns into a jealous asshole, which he'd never been before. Not even with Cho. He suddenly hates Dean, who he'd had a pretty good relationship with before, and falls madly in love with Ginny. And all this happens the same year that Love Potions are properly introduced in Cannon? I say properly, because the only other mention of them is when GINNY'S MOTHER talked about making one and using it when she was a girl in a converstation during Harry's Third year. Not only that, but are sold in diluted doses by her own brothers? Coincidence or something more sinister?
          >
          > Sure, maybe it was a coincidence, and JKR just had all that happen at the same time. But since Ginny was something of a empty shell of a character until she became Super!Ginny in 6th year, the same year Love Potions show up and Harry falls in love with her.
          >

          I pretty sure that it is a coincidence, but it gave more than enough munition for Harmonians.


          > But let me nip this in the bud right now. I don't have near as much problem with Harry/Ginny that I do with Hermione/Ron. Had Ginny been a better developed character, it wouldn't have been so weird. Would I still want Harry with Hermione? Yes, because Hermione's the Heroine, and Harry's the Hero.
          >

          I am Harry/Luna or Harry/minor character shipper, but I admit, you are right in this point. It is the logic of the fairy-tales.
          Nevertheless the knowing the characters, none of the canon or popular fanon ships seem to be right for me. From the first group the worst is the Remus/Tonks pairing. In the real world Hermione and Ron relationship would not survive the first year, either. They are interested in totally different things and they are fighting too much for each other. Harmonian ship is only slightly better. Hermione needs an intellectual partner, who can handle her bossy nature (two negative points for Harry). Furthermore she does not know how to relax, have a fun, which is crucial for Harry. In the case of Harry/Ginny ship Ginny seems to be too temperamental and in general too "Weasley" to be an ideal partner. Luna is too eccentric. For Harry the best a Gryfflepuff would be. Somebody from the Hufflepuffs, who is brave enough and can cope with "Harry-type" problems. Or may be a more relaxed and less bossy Hermione or "saner" Luna. For Ron I would choose a Lavender type partner. In my concept Hermione would remain single for a while.
        • third_realm_guardian
          Hidy hidy, @Skarphedinn13, You make a good point, really. But, he is the only character who changed for the better. I would say Luna changed for the better,
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 8 2:15 PM
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            Hidy hidy,

            @Skarphedinn13,

            You make a good point, really. But, he is the only character who changed for the better. I would say Luna changed for the better, but she didn't so much as change, as her situation did, somewhat. Sadly, her situation getting better led to proof that it only got better enough so much that we were able to see how horrible her life had been, and how sad it still was when all was said and done.

            So, I can enjoy that version of Neville, especially since it was a role he would have been required to fill had Voldemort gone after him that Halloween instead of Harry (if we say the prophecy means anything.) Dumbledore would have ensured that Neville would have taken the role either by grooming him or magically inducing such behavior, I'm sure. "For the greater good", it would have been necessary, after all.

            Paladeus - Kevin

            --- In Thoughts_of_Pudding@yahoogroups.com, "skarphedinn13" <skarphedinn13@...> wrote:
            >
            > > All of the characters were OC from books six and seven when compared to the other five. Hermione was a shrew who belittled Harry and even CHEATED to give Ron a position on the Quidditch team he was very bad at and practically pissed his pants in out of fear, Ron was a better friend to Harry and Hermione (aside from walking out, which was very IN character,) Harry was pissy at everyone and seemed to only care about getting laid, Dumbledore actually paid attention to Harry, the Malfoys turned out to have regrets of their actions, Snape turned out to be a good guy when he NEVER WAS BEFORE, Luna was suddenly friends with everyone and trusted (though I admit to seeing that as a possibility after finally gaining friends during fifth year though it didn't seem to happen at all during that year, only after in book six.)
            > >
            >
            > You are right about it. I would mention leader, organizer and fighter Neville, imho he is the biggest OC of the last two books. This is one of the main reasons that the last two books have failed. I think the reason JKR created OC characters, because without it her original idea about the end of the story (one big, happy, Weasley family) could not really have worked after the 5th book...
            > An another interesting thing is that JKR bashed almost all main characters at the end of the series (Marauders, Harry, Ron, Hermione etc.). Ron is unlucky, because everybody remember his "betrayal" (and his marriage with Hr...), therefore he became one of the most unpopular character of the series. In contrast, although Harry is an idiot, who did nothing to prepare himself for his destiny, remained a hero ( or a poor manipulated martyr) for almost everybody.
            >
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