you should know that I *agree* with you. Re: "abusive" relationships
between Harry and Hermione... all I wanted to say is that there's some
potential there for one, given the circumstances. Doesn't mean it HAS to
happen, or that it's overly likely. In fact I just wanted to point out
that, while it's POSSIBLE in a H/H, it is a GIVEN if she marries Ron, or
Neville, or Cormac (which also supports the idea of Hermione
being.../very/ susceptible... to an abusive relationship.) So, she
*should* be with Harry. That's hardly the only reason either, not even
the main one really; these two just...fit, right down being able to
/understand/ not knowing about things every pureblood would. Neither Ron
nor Ginny would be able to, nor do I think *willing* to, learn about
their respective spouse's background; that is, the Muggle world.
Ron blew it the moment he called her Mudblood. Ginny blew it when she
was being a bully to Hermione, Luna, and Fleur, probably others.
Re: whether we should ignore books 6 and 7, or not. You'll notice that I
try to not dismiss them, even though it pains me to do so *grin*
The major problem, as we both stated, is that NONE of the characters
(##1-4) seem to have anything to do with their counterparts in ##5-7 (or
thereabouts). Makes one wonder if they were written by the same author.
But then, we should remember JK pretty much wrote ##1-4 in a single
session (more or less), then went on hiatus for quite some time (that
was when PS-the-movie came out, and with it much of the fame and the
money and demands for more)... so perhaps it's not surprising this happened.
Anyway. IF we are to dismiss books 5-7 then HMS Harmony sails without
any problems, especially at the end of #4. Old Crow has quite believable
fics that go from there, IIRC. And Harry/Ginny? That ship -as you
rightly point out- hasn't even been built yet. There is no Ginny until
the end of #4, so no Harry/Ginny except in the minds of "romantic" fic
authors who want to see the damsel with the knight, or perhaps those who
just wanted to put Harry with any girl (to show they could).
The Ron/Hermione ship should have sunk by the end of #4, or rather, at
Hallowe'en that year. By that point, I thought maybe Neville and Ginny
should give it a try (assuming he wasn't as much of an idiot as Harry,
never mind Ron, at the Ball). Didn't make sense for them not to,
actually, especially considering their age.
If we DO include books 5 to 7, however, things get difficult. Now,
Hermione only has the earlier years to her name, when she supported
Harry unconditionally. Because now she certainly doesn't. There are bits
and pieces, moments when she reverts back to her earlier self, but the
"unconditional" part just isn't there anymore. I won't speculate why
that might be - simply growing up, thinking Harry doesn't want her (and
he doesn't really show it either, not that I don't understand that- but
in the end, he /doesn't/), or simply because of an authors manipulations ---
at the end of #7, I myself wouldn't want to be with Hermione. That's
also the potentialfor abusiveness I was talking about earlier, right there.
Harry is broken from the start (of #5). A supportive girlfriend would
have been a great help (such as Hermione at this point in time).
Then, it only got worse. Ginny didn't make things better; if anything,
she made things WORSE, if only Harry couldn't talk to her about
/anything/. Again, Hermione would -probably should- have been a great
help, but she had her own adolescent issues to deal with and Harry would
NEVER have asked, so that ship literally sailed without them. I'd love
to include the whole "Tent" situation here, but unfortunately, it
doesn't make ANY sense. But perhaps it was simply a matter of Harry and
Hermione being unable to step up to Ron- they are both without much
self-confidence, never mind self-esteem,so that might be an explanation.
Of course, discounting /anything else/, at THAT point any Ron/Hermione
ship was doomed to either not sail at all or being VERY bad for Hermione.
The Harry/Ginny ship on the other hand seems to have died somewhere
along the way. I still wonder if Harry kept looking at the map in some
sort of remembrance of what was, but never will be. He never even looked
at the girl after the battle. So at this point I think, with Hermione
being...unavailable, at least for the time being, he'd probably withdraw
into himself, shutting people out.
Barely any other ships seem to be canon-supported... perhaps Harry/Luna-
and you're right, Kevin, the situation there is much like the one with
Hermione. Harry/Cho.... I won't ever understand why he treated her the
way he did, ignored her, even, so as a ship it cannot sail. Guess they
were both unable to talk about it, and I guess Harry's crush didn't help
matters any. (Of course, they were young, and I'm not saying they
shouldn't have tried, or that I dislike anything about the idea in
general... but given everything, it shouldn't have lasted. Fortunately,
On 7/8/2009 10:21 AM, third_realm_guardian wrote:
> Hidy hidy,
> I was reading this and, while I respect your views regarding Hermione and can certainly see them, they aren't mine, personally, but I admit them to be valid and possible.
> However, one thing you said struck me: "One question that definitely needs answering is "do we consider books ##6 and 7 or do we not?" We can't go arguing pro-Hermione discounting them, then argue contra-Ginny *based* on them. That just doesn't work."
> One MAJOR flaw in your conjecture here is that books five, six and seven are the ONLY stories we have where there is ANY Ginny development. Books one through four, there is NOTHING about her. She's nothing more than an extra character who shows herself as any standard girl with a crush, gets told about love potions by her mother with Hermione (and one must wonder why that tidbit was even added as it isn't endearing, it's illegal, immoral and plain out wrong,) and a dance partner with Neville to the Yule Ball.
> Book five, she pops out of nowhere and becomes this massive powerhouse in the DA, but mediocre in all other abilities before that, a fireball with a big temper like the other Weasleys, enjoys having a boyfriend to snog and fought at the Ministry.
> In books six and seven, we have the majority of her development and, truth be told, ANY development. We see her going from boyfriends (and, please note she broke up with Seamus and got together with Harry just a VERY short while later,) becoming this wonderful girl and such, but the sad fact is, this:
> By dismissing Hermione from the last two books to keep her more in character with the first five, by doing the same to and with Ginny, we actually have NOTHING to work with!
> The very nature of Hermione and Ginny in those books shows us Ginny came out of nowhere, played massive pick-up to become a worthy character to be on screen, and became another potential interest out of it. And honestly, by ignoring Hermione's persona in those last two books and, thereby doing the same with Ginny (doing just as your comment stated,) we realize that we DON'T bash her, we simply create an OFC based on the little we know. 1 - she grew up learning love potions were okay and that they led to a romantic and happy ending, 2 - she had a crush on Harry since before she met him for years and 3 - By comments from family and the very NATURE of family structures in good ones, she would be given things the others can't and would be rather spoiled in many cases (especially when you consider she is the first girl in generations) she would HAVE this "mine!" issue like many two-year olds have.
> All of the characters were OC from books six and seven when compared to the other five. Hermione was a shrew who belittled Harry and even CHEATED to give Ron a position on the Quidditch team he was very bad at and practically pissed his pants in out of fear, Ron was a better friend to Harry and Hermione (aside from walking out, which was very IN character,) Harry was pissy at everyone and seemed to only care about getting laid, Dumbledore actually paid attention to Harry, the Malfoys turned out to have regrets of their actions, Snape turned out to be a good guy when he NEVER WAS BEFORE, Luna was suddenly friends with everyone and trusted (though I admit to seeing that as a possibility after finally gaining friends during fifth year though it didn't seem to happen at all during that year, only after in book six.)
> And last, but certainly not least, the biggest OOC person was Ginny. She was suddenly more popular, strong, fiery, had a bond strong enough to insult Hermione to her face, kissed Harry out of nowhere when she knew it wasn't proper for their relationship at the time (unless she felt she had a reason to that may let it work to her favor?) and was suddenly important to the plot when we KNOW she was nowhere in the story until fifth year aside from a character mentioned in passing and the culprit at the end of the second book.
> Simply put, discounting Bitch!Hermione from books six and seven isn't a hypocrisy, it's simply pointing out that JKR was a damned fool women and did what she could to salvage the characters all so she could have one big, happy, Weasley family.
> Ron marries Hermione
> Ginny marries Harry
> George marries Angelina
> Bill marries Fleur
> Every legal-age character of the proper gender married a Weasley. Fleur was introduced, was a wonderful, pretty girl, married a Weasley who she had no real way of meeting, by the way. Any character that was important became a bloody Weasley (though, Ginny became a Potter, but still.) And let's face it, Ginny and Harry are related pretty closely, if I remember right. Via marriage, yes, but people are commenting about interbreeding and seem to fail to realize that fact.
> It is my firm and sound belief that the life debt Hermione owed to Harry manifested itself in such a way that she resolved to do anything to help him in his life. If that meant marrying a Weasel to stay a part of his life and family (as he was obviously willing to give up on a date with Cho for Hermione, I can be sure Ginny, or others, would take offense with his relationship with Hermione going forward,) then she did it.
> I don't think they (Harry and Hermione) would have had any form of an abusive relationship. That point you mentioned I will say out right isn't something I can visualize, but I DO say your idea of her needing someone in her life holds merit. I would think the same thing about Luna, to be honest. I think that girl just needed a friend, which is why I will always do my best to write her with Harry and Hermione in my stories.
> Kevin - Paladeus