Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Ger and moisture problems

Expand Messages
  • srphgn
    Hello everyone, After searching quite a bit on the internet about yurts/gers, there are still some things I m not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 1 2:35 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello everyone,

      After searching quite a bit on the internet about yurts/gers, there are still some things I'm
      not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a traditional one) soon, with the intention to live in
      it.
      I live in the Netherlands, so I'm a bit afraid of the moisture problems. Is it enough to fire it up
      to keep moisture away?
      And any tips for buying a good ger? I have a secondhand one on my eye, and I'm going to
      look at it soon.

      Thank you very much for your advice.
    • froit1
      Hee, www.yurt.nl, www.nooitmeerhaast.nl? ... are still some things I m ... with the intention to live in ... problems. Is it enough to fire it up ... eye, and
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 2 5:02 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Hee, www.yurt.nl,
        www.nooitmeerhaast.nl?

        --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "srphgn" <srphgn@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello everyone,
        >
        > After searching quite a bit on the internet about yurts/gers, there
        are still some things I'm
        > not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a traditional one) soon,
        with the intention to live in
        > it.
        > I live in the Netherlands, so I'm a bit afraid of the moisture
        problems. Is it enough to fire it up
        > to keep moisture away?
        > And any tips for buying a good ger? I have a secondhand one on my
        eye, and I'm going to
        > look at it soon.
        >
        > Thank you very much for your advice.
        >
      • Chris Fuhr
        One start with books on Mold and moisture issues I recommend The Home owner s Guide to MOLD   Author Michael Puglies   Moisture for you falls into Summer
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 2 6:01 PM
        • 0 Attachment

          One start with books on Mold and moisture issues I recommend "The Home owner's Guide to MOLD"  Author Michael Puglies

           

          Moisture for you falls into Summer moisture, Fall/spring moisture, and winter moisture. 

           

          First let us say that for the Mongols Summer moisture is a blessing it's on average a dry place.

           

          Now for you.  Probably you have things like books and clothes and such ask yourself if there are things you would do without in order to make this work.  I for one will not risk my book collection and thus the library will be in a more traditional structure.  Also if you do things like hot kettle cooking and water heating, drying clothes on an indoor clothes line, and excessive bathing  is in the winter is potentially bad.  Moisture is going to condense against the walls a lot it can even drip.  Your going to want an insulation layer and when condensation is frozen it's not as much a problem but when it thaws then it's a problem.  Long term condensation will lead to a mold problem.  Lack of insulation will lead to high bills to fight the condensation problem.  Improperly applied and or maintained insulation leads to uncorrected insulation problems lead to moisture leading to mold and health issues.

           

          Speaking of which I am moving this week from a project that my friend got a free mobile home complete with mold and other organic toxins, and cannot come up with the money to properly fix it in time before the September rainy season if at all.  I'm not waisting any more time trying to fix something that's not done right when it's done.  I've all ready been sick from this work site and am not risking a problem over and over.

           

          Happy 4th

           

          For those of you not American this is a holiday where we buy hongkong fireworks and try not to burn down each others homes, celebrating the creation of our government who has made same such fireworks against the law?

          --- On Wed, 7/2/08, froit1 <froit1@...> wrote:

          From: froit1 <froit1@...>
          Subject: [The_Yurt_Community] Re: Ger and moisture problems
          To: The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 5:02 PM

          Hee, www.yurt.nl,
          www.nooitmeerhaast. nl?

          --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, "srphgn" <srphgn@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello everyone,
          >
          > After searching quite a bit on the internet about yurts/gers, there
          are still some things I'm
          > not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a traditional one) soon,
          with the intention to live in
          > it.
          > I live in the Netherlands, so I'm a bit afraid of the moisture
          problems. Is it enough to fire it up
          > to keep moisture away?
          > And any tips for buying a good ger? I have a secondhand one on my
          eye, and I'm going to
          > look at it soon.
          >
          > Thank you very much for your advice.
          >


        • srphgn
          Thanks for your replies. Froit, I have read your (you made it, not?) site for quite a few times I think... It has been very helpful, but I m not completely
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 3 1:50 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for your replies.
            Froit, I have read your (you made it, not?) site for quite a few times I think... It has been
            very helpful, but I'm not completely sure about some points. For example, on the "the
            others" page, you say that you shouldn't buy an import ger "Unless you are very
            experienced at pitching GER, and use them continiously when standing, or you don't give
            a damn about throwing away a precious and rare piece of Mongolian forest for your
            pleasure only"
            Does this mean that it will also be a bad choice to use an import ger when used and fired
            continiously?

            Chris, I think it will go with the books and clothes, but I'm mostly concerned what will
            happen to the ger itself. I don't want it to rot away in a year or so.
            Good point about the freezing and thawing of the insulation, it didn't came to my mind
            yet.
            If there is waterproof fabric on top of the felt, will the felt be able to lose its moisture?
            Otherwise heating the ger won't make any sense.

            Thank you!



            --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, Chris Fuhr
            <instructorhasgonedigital@...> wrote:
            >
            > One start with books on Mold and moisture issues I recommend "The Home owner's
            Guide to MOLD"  Author Michael Puglies
            >  
            > Moisture for you falls into Summer moisture, Fall/spring moisture, and winter moisture. 
            >  
            > First let us say that for the Mongols Summer moisture is a blessing it's on average a dry
            place.
            >  
            > Now for you.  Probably you have things like books and clothes and such ask yourself if
            there are things you would do without in order to make this work.  I for one will not risk
            my book collection and thus the library will be in a more traditional structure.  Also if you
            do things like hot kettle cooking and water heating, drying clothes on an indoor clothes
            line, and excessive bathing  is in the winter is potentially bad.  Moisture is going to
            condense against the walls a lot it can even drip.  Your going to want an insulation layer
            and when condensation is frozen it's not as much a problem but when it thaws then it's a
            problem.  Long term condensation will lead to a mold problem.  Lack of insulation will
            lead to high bills to fight the condensation problem.  Improperly applied and or
            maintained insulation leads to uncorrected insulation problems lead to moisture leading to
            mold and health issues.
            >  
            > Speaking of which I am moving this week from a project that my friend got a free
            mobile home complete with mold and other organic toxins, and cannot come up with the
            money to properly fix it in time before the September rainy season if at all.  I'm not
            waisting any more time trying to fix something that's not done right when it's done.  I've
            all ready been sick from this work site and am not risking a problem over and over.
            >  
            > Happy 4th
            >  
            > For those of you not American this is a holiday where we buy hongkong fireworks and
            try not to burn down each others homes, celebrating the creation of our government who
            has made same such fireworks against the law?
            >
            > --- On Wed, 7/2/08, froit1 <froit1@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: froit1 <froit1@...>
            > Subject: [The_Yurt_Community] Re: Ger and moisture problems
            > To: The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 5:02 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hee, www.yurt.nl,
            > www.nooitmeerhaast. nl?
            >
            > --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, "srphgn" <srphgn@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello everyone,
            > >
            > > After searching quite a bit on the internet about yurts/gers, there
            > are still some things I'm
            > > not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a traditional one) soon,
            > with the intention to live in
            > > it.
            > > I live in the Netherlands, so I'm a bit afraid of the moisture
            > problems. Is it enough to fire it up
            > > to keep moisture away?
            > > And any tips for buying a good ger? I have a secondhand one on my
            > eye, and I'm going to
            > > look at it soon.
            > >
            > > Thank you very much for your advice.
            > >
            >
          • Chris Fuhr
            I could recommend sandwiching the felt between layers of plastic the higher tec and thicker the better but that looses all natural feel.  (Sandwich literally
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 3 8:33 PM
            • 0 Attachment

              I could recommend sandwiching the felt between layers of plastic the higher tec and thicker the better but that looses all natural feel.  (Sandwich literally meaning sew or melt the edges of the plastic together so that no air gets in.  At that point other have opted to use bubble rap between layers.

               

              The only other method would be you  need about a foot between the felt and the plastic that way the felt can still breath.  Warning a 16 foot yurt suddenly has the living space of a 14 foot.  Condensation would happen on the cool or coolest surfaces that might be the plastic on most days.  On days that both the outside layer of felt and the plastic are cool condensation would gather on both equally, and the moment that sun hits the plastic the coolest surface becomes the outer layer of felt and condensation will travel off the plastic travel 1 foot in it's attempt to leave and condense on the side of the felt you don't see.  I could explain it better with a chalk board.

               

              O lets skip the dehumidifiers unless your trying to dry out water dammage before mold forms.  They need something like 50 degrees minimum and still lower the temp so your trying to heat and cool it at the same time.

               

              And were all clear propain indoors is bad it's a wet heat it leaves more water in the air so you get things more damp by trying to boil a kettle with a propain burner.  Trying to heat a yurt with just a propain burner in the yurt can kill.

              --- On Thu, 7/3/08, srphgn <srphgn@...> wrote:

              From: srphgn <srphgn@...>
              Subject: [The_Yurt_Community] Re: Ger and moisture problems
              To: The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 1:50 PM

              Thanks for your replies.
              Froit, I have read your (you made it, not?) site for quite a few times I think... It has been
              very helpful, but I'm not completely sure about some points. For example, on the "the
              others" page, you say that you shouldn't buy an import ger "Unless you are very
              experienced at pitching GER, and use them continiously when standing, or you don't give
              a damn about throwing away a precious and rare piece of Mongolian forest for your
              pleasure only"
              Does this mean that it will also be a bad choice to use an import ger when used and fired
              continiously?

              Chris, I think it will go with the books and clothes, but I'm mostly concerned what will
              happen to the ger itself. I don't want it to rot away in a year or so.
              Good point about the freezing and thawing of the insulation, it didn't came to my mind
              yet.
              If there is waterproof fabric on top of the felt, will the felt be able to lose its moisture?
              Otherwise heating the ger won't make any sense.

              Thank you!

              --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, Chris Fuhr
              <instructorhasgoned igital@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > One start with books on Mold and moisture issues I recommend "The Home owner's
              Guide to MOLD"  Author Michael Puglies
              >  
              > Moisture for you falls into Summer moisture, Fall/spring moisture, and winter moisture. 
              >  
              > First let us say that for the Mongols Summer moisture is a blessing it's on average a dry
              place.
              >  
              > Now for you.  Probably you have things like books and clothes and such ask yourself if
              there are things you would do without in order to make this work.  I for one will not risk
              my book collection and thus the library will be in a more traditional structure.  Also if you
              do things like hot kettle cooking and water heating, drying clothes on an indoor clothes
              line, and excessive bathing  is in the winter is potentially bad.  Moisture is going to
              condense against the walls a lot it can even drip.  Your going to want an insulation layer
              and when condensation is frozen it's not as much a problem but when it thaws then it's a
              problem.  Long term condensation will lead to a mold problem.  Lack of insulation will
              lead to high bills to fight the condensation problem.  Improperly applied and or
              maintained insulation leads to uncorrected insulation problems lead to moisture leading to
              mold and health issues.
              >  
              > Speaking of which I am moving this week from a project that my friend got a free
              mobile home complete with mold and other organic toxins, and cannot come up with the
              money to properly fix it in time before the September rainy season if at all.  I'm not
              waisting any more time trying to fix something that's not done right when it's done.  I've
              all ready been sick from this work site and am not risking a problem over and over.
              >  
              > Happy 4th
              >  
              > For those of you not American this is a holiday where we buy hongkong fireworks and
              try not to burn down each others homes, celebrating the creation of our government who
              has made same such fireworks against the law?
              >
              > --- On Wed, 7/2/08, froit1 <froit1@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: froit1 <froit1@...>
              > Subject: [The_Yurt_Community ] Re: Ger and moisture problems
              > To: The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com
              > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 5:02 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hee, www.yurt.nl,
              > www.nooitmeerhaast. nl?
              >
              > --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, "srphgn" <srphgn@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello everyone,
              > >
              > > After searching quite a bit on the internet about yurts/gers, there
              > are still some things I'm
              > > not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a traditional one) soon,
              > with the intention to live in
              > > it.
              > > I live in the Netherlands, so I'm a bit afraid of the moisture
              > problems. Is it enough to fire it up
              > > to keep moisture away?
              > > And any tips for buying a good ger? I have a secondhand one on my
              > eye, and I'm going to
              > > look at it soon.
              > >
              > > Thank you very much for your advice.
              > >
              >


            • froit1
              No, imported ger could work for you, but: Fire and air constantly, and move regularly, and still after a year it looks like some old soddy piece of gook. And
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 5 8:27 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                No, imported ger could work for you, but:
                Fire and air constantly, and move regularly, and still after a year it
                looks like some old soddy piece of gook.
                And no amount of money and materials spent will change that.
                Get your ass over to Baarle Nassau, and go see for yourself!
                There is, or at least was the last time I was there, the difference
                clearly visible.
                Five or six made-in-Holand-yurts, and one made-in Mongolia, but
                repaired and fixed by us.
                Go see the difference!
                Froit

                --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "srphgn" <srphgn@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks for your replies.
                > Froit, I have read your (you made it, not?) site for quite a few
                times I think... It has been
                > very helpful, but I'm not completely sure about some points. For
                example, on the "the
                > others" page, you say that you shouldn't buy an import ger "Unless
                you are very
                > experienced at pitching GER, and use them continiously when
                standing, or you don't give
                > a damn about throwing away a precious and rare piece of Mongolian
                forest for your
                > pleasure only"
                > Does this mean that it will also be a bad choice to use an import
                ger when used and fired
                > continiously?
                >
                > Chris, I think it will go with the books and clothes, but I'm mostly
                concerned what will
                > happen to the ger itself. I don't want it to rot away in a year or so.
                > Good point about the freezing and thawing of the insulation, it
                didn't came to my mind
                > yet.
                > If there is waterproof fabric on top of the felt, will the felt be
                able to lose its moisture?
                > Otherwise heating the ger won't make any sense.
                >
                > Thank you!
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, Chris Fuhr
                > <instructorhasgonedigital@> wrote:
                > >
                > > One start with books on Mold and moisture issues I recommend "The
                Home owner's
                > Guide to MOLD"  Author Michael Puglies
                > >  
                > > Moisture for you falls into Summer moisture, Fall/spring moisture,
                and winter moisture. 
                > >  
                > > First let us say that for the Mongols Summer moisture is a
                blessing it's on average a dry
                > place.
                > >  
                > > Now for you.  Probably you have things like books and clothes and
                such ask yourself if
                > there are things you would do without in order to make this work.  I
                for one will not risk
                > my book collection and thus the library will be in a more
                traditional structure.  Also if you
                > do things like hot kettle cooking and water heating, drying clothes
                on an indoor clothes
                > line, and excessive bathing  is in the winter is potentially bad. 
                Moisture is going to
                > condense against the walls a lot it can even drip.  Your going to
                want an insulation layer
                > and when condensation is frozen it's not as much a problem but when
                it thaws then it's a
                > problem.  Long term condensation will lead to a mold problem.  Lack
                of insulation will
                > lead to high bills to fight the condensation problem.  Improperly
                applied and or
                > maintained insulation leads to uncorrected insulation problems lead
                to moisture leading to
                > mold and health issues.
                > >  
                > > Speaking of which I am moving this week from a project that my
                friend got a free
                > mobile home complete with mold and other organic toxins, and cannot
                come up with the
                > money to properly fix it in time before the September rainy season
                if at all.  I'm not
                > waisting any more time trying to fix something that's not done right
                when it's done.  I've
                > all ready been sick from this work site and am not risking a problem
                over and over.
                > >  
                > > Happy 4th
                > >  
                > > For those of you not American this is a holiday where we buy
                hongkong fireworks and
                > try not to burn down each others homes, celebrating the creation of
                our government who
                > has made same such fireworks against the law?
                > >
                > > --- On Wed, 7/2/08, froit1 <froit1@> wrote:
                > >
                > > From: froit1 <froit1@>
                > > Subject: [The_Yurt_Community] Re: Ger and moisture problems
                > > To: The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com
                > > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 5:02 PM
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hee, www.yurt.nl,
                > > www.nooitmeerhaast. nl?
                > >
                > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, "srphgn" <srphgn@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello everyone,
                > > >
                > > > After searching quite a bit on the internet about yurts/gers, there
                > > are still some things I'm
                > > > not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a traditional one) soon,
                > > with the intention to live in
                > > > it.
                > > > I live in the Netherlands, so I'm a bit afraid of the moisture
                > > problems. Is it enough to fire it up
                > > > to keep moisture away?
                > > > And any tips for buying a good ger? I have a secondhand one on my
                > > eye, and I'm going to
                > > > look at it soon.
                > > >
                > > > Thank you very much for your advice.
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • srphgn
                Froit, you give me quite some points to think about! I would like to take a look in Baarle, do I have to make an appointment? Can you tell why imported gers
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 7 3:56 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Froit, you give me quite some points to think about!
                  I would like to take a look in Baarle, do I have to make an appointment?
                  Can you tell why imported gers get bad so quickly, is it the material (wood/felt/cottons,
                  lack of impregnation), or are they just too quickly and poorly made?
                  Some importers state their gers are made suitable for the European climate, by
                  impregnating the wood, and waterproof covers. Can you please tell me how you think
                  about them?

                  Chris, thanks for explaining, but I'm afraid all that plastic will give less ventilation, so more
                  sweat and "old" air getting trapped in, and less fresh air coming in.
                  Is it also bad to cook with propane? I want a wood burner for warmth in the ger.


                  --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "froit1" <froit1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > No, imported ger could work for you, but:
                  > Fire and air constantly, and move regularly, and still after a year it
                  > looks like some old soddy piece of gook.
                  > And no amount of money and materials spent will change that.
                  > Get your ass over to Baarle Nassau, and go see for yourself!
                  > There is, or at least was the last time I was there, the difference
                  > clearly visible.
                  > Five or six made-in-Holand-yurts, and one made-in Mongolia, but
                  > repaired and fixed by us.
                  > Go see the difference!
                  > Froit
                  >
                  > --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "srphgn" <srphgn@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for your replies.
                  > > Froit, I have read your (you made it, not?) site for quite a few
                  > times I think... It has been
                  > > very helpful, but I'm not completely sure about some points. For
                  > example, on the "the
                  > > others" page, you say that you shouldn't buy an import ger "Unless
                  > you are very
                  > > experienced at pitching GER, and use them continiously when
                  > standing, or you don't give
                  > > a damn about throwing away a precious and rare piece of Mongolian
                  > forest for your
                  > > pleasure only"
                  > > Does this mean that it will also be a bad choice to use an import
                  > ger when used and fired
                  > > continiously?
                  > >
                  > > Chris, I think it will go with the books and clothes, but I'm mostly
                  > concerned what will
                  > > happen to the ger itself. I don't want it to rot away in a year or so.
                  > > Good point about the freezing and thawing of the insulation, it
                  > didn't came to my mind
                  > > yet.
                  > > If there is waterproof fabric on top of the felt, will the felt be
                  > able to lose its moisture?
                  > > Otherwise heating the ger won't make any sense.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, Chris Fuhr
                  > > <instructorhasgonedigital@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > One start with books on Mold and moisture issues I recommend "The
                  > Home owner's
                  > > Guide to MOLD"  Author Michael Puglies
                  > > >  
                  > > > Moisture for you falls into Summer moisture, Fall/spring moisture,
                  > and winter moisture. 
                  > > >  
                  > > > First let us say that for the Mongols Summer moisture is a
                  > blessing it's on average a dry
                  > > place.
                  > > >  
                  > > > Now for you.  Probably you have things like books and clothes and
                  > such ask yourself if
                  > > there are things you would do without in order to make this work.  I
                  > for one will not risk
                  > > my book collection and thus the library will be in a more
                  > traditional structure.  Also if you
                  > > do things like hot kettle cooking and water heating, drying clothes
                  > on an indoor clothes
                  > > line, and excessive bathing  is in the winter is potentially bad. 
                  > Moisture is going to
                  > > condense against the walls a lot it can even drip.  Your going to
                  > want an insulation layer
                  > > and when condensation is frozen it's not as much a problem but when
                  > it thaws then it's a
                  > > problem.  Long term condensation will lead to a mold problem.  Lack
                  > of insulation will
                  > > lead to high bills to fight the condensation problem.  Improperly
                  > applied and or
                  > > maintained insulation leads to uncorrected insulation problems lead
                  > to moisture leading to
                  > > mold and health issues.
                  > > >  
                  > > > Speaking of which I am moving this week from a project that my
                  > friend got a free
                  > > mobile home complete with mold and other organic toxins, and cannot
                  > come up with the
                  > > money to properly fix it in time before the September rainy season
                  > if at all.  I'm not
                  > > waisting any more time trying to fix something that's not done right
                  > when it's done.  I've
                  > > all ready been sick from this work site and am not risking a problem
                  > over and over.
                  > > >  
                  > > > Happy 4th
                  > > >  
                  > > > For those of you not American this is a holiday where we buy
                  > hongkong fireworks and
                  > > try not to burn down each others homes, celebrating the creation of
                  > our government who
                  > > has made same such fireworks against the law?
                  > > >
                  > > > --- On Wed, 7/2/08, froit1 <froit1@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > From: froit1 <froit1@>
                  > > > Subject: [The_Yurt_Community] Re: Ger and moisture problems
                  > > > To: The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 5:02 PM
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hee, www.yurt.nl,
                  > > > www.nooitmeerhaast. nl?
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, "srphgn" <srphgn@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hello everyone,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > After searching quite a bit on the internet about yurts/gers, there
                  > > > are still some things I'm
                  > > > > not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a traditional one) soon,
                  > > > with the intention to live in
                  > > > > it.
                  > > > > I live in the Netherlands, so I'm a bit afraid of the moisture
                  > > > problems. Is it enough to fire it up
                  > > > > to keep moisture away?
                  > > > > And any tips for buying a good ger? I have a secondhand one on my
                  > > > eye, and I'm going to
                  > > > > look at it soon.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thank you very much for your advice.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Chris Fuhr
                  Cooking with propane by itself is not that bad.  What you cook can add to the problem.  I nearly killed (axfixication no joking terms here) myself trying to
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 7 4:38 AM
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Cooking with propane by itself is not that bad.  What you cook can add to the problem.  I nearly killed (axfixication no joking terms here) myself trying to make a hot bath for a 100 gallon tub that was 70/100 too fill it.  The best bath of my life, too bad I was throwing up too much too enjoy it from the propane fumes.  Boiling water adds humidity, boiling water to sterilize it adds, drying your clothes indoors adds etc...  At the location that I'm staying at I dry my gym towels on a clothes line in the shed thus not adding to the smells of the old RV.  If your heating the place with a dry heat and cooking with propane they should for the most part balance each other out.  If for example your cooking a big thing of pasta and trying to dry all your clothes by stringing clothes lines here and there at the same time you may wonder why it's taking forever in a small yurt. 

                     

                    A propane heater that is not built to move it's exhaust outside (there not that hard to make) I cannot approve of on this site.  If I say yes if you use extreme caution somebody would the first time use some caution and after a while (because it did not kill me last night) use no caution.  Often it's something like snow covering enough of the air passages in and out of the tent and there is not enough air to keep the propane running.  Some cases when the door was opened it adds enough oxygen back into the mix that it explodes, most times they just find dead people. I hate to say NO but in this case if I say mostly no it gets turned into what they heard was mostly YES, and in a few extreem cases "you told us too do it" and we quote you as extreemly YES.

                     

                    You are correct plastic dose not give ventilation that's why you install vents.  I created a 1/4ton camper that was super insulated

                    1:smells did not go away. 

                     2: I had a guest (that is a PC word for it after he made it clear he had no intentions of ever leaving) who smoked cheap Rollie's and I requested that he not smoke in the tiny camper.  He thought that after I was asleep the rules didn't apply.  With two men and a dog in that small an area we almost ran out of air because of his cigarettes.  A small vent at the top of your yurt moves the most moisture out of it.

                     

                    I can tell you what I think of impregnating wool you now are on a every 6 month scedual of reimpregnating the wool.  If you plan on having a large yurt also plan on making a way to get yourself in position to brush on water repellent.  Second most reppelents that are not heavyly into chemecals are mostly a wax and those are attractive too some forms of wasps and bugs they like it for nest making and others like too hang around waiting for the ones that like the wax.  I've tried the 3m spray on stuff just skip it it's OK for about a month plus you need to put it on when the canvas is dry.

                    --- On Mon, 7/7/08, srphgn <srphgn@...> wrote:

                    From: srphgn <srphgn@...>
                    Subject: [The_Yurt_Community] Re: Ger and moisture problems
                    To: The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 3:56 AM

                    Froit, you give me quite some points to think about!
                    I would like to take a look in Baarle, do I have to make an appointment?
                    Can you tell why imported gers get bad so quickly, is it the material (wood/felt/cottons,
                    lack of impregnation) , or are they just too quickly and poorly made?
                    Some importers state their gers are made suitable for the European climate, by
                    impregnating the wood, and waterproof covers. Can you please tell me how you think
                    about them?

                    Chris, thanks for explaining, but I'm afraid all that plastic will give less ventilation, so more
                    sweat and "old" air getting trapped in, and less fresh air coming in.
                    Is it also bad to cook with propane? I want a wood burner for warmth in the ger.

                    --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, "froit1" <froit1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > No, imported ger could work for you, but:
                    > Fire and air constantly, and move regularly, and still after a year it
                    > looks like some old soddy piece of gook.
                    > And no amount of money and materials spent will change that.
                    > Get your ass over to Baarle Nassau, and go see for yourself!
                    > There is, or at least was the last time I was there, the difference
                    > clearly visible.
                    > Five or six made-in-Holand- yurts, and one made-in Mongolia, but
                    > repaired and fixed by us.
                    > Go see the difference!
                    > Froit
                    >
                    > --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, "srphgn" <srphgn@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for your replies.
                    > > Froit, I have read your (you made it, not?) site for quite a few
                    > times I think... It has been
                    > > very helpful, but I'm not completely sure about some points. For
                    > example, on the "the
                    > > others" page, you say that you shouldn't buy an import ger "Unless
                    > you are very
                    > > experienced at pitching GER, and use them continiously when
                    > standing, or you don't give
                    > > a damn about throwing away a precious and rare piece of Mongolian
                    > forest for your
                    > > pleasure only"
                    > > Does this mean that it will also be a bad choice to use an import
                    > ger when used and fired
                    > > continiously?
                    > >
                    > > Chris, I think it will go with the books and clothes, but I'm mostly
                    > concerned what will
                    > > happen to the ger itself. I don't want it to rot away in a year or so.
                    > > Good point about the freezing and thawing of the insulation, it
                    > didn't came to my mind
                    > > yet.
                    > > If there is waterproof fabric on top of the felt, will the felt be
                    > able to lose its moisture?
                    > > Otherwise heating the ger won't make any sense.
                    > >
                    > > Thank you!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, Chris Fuhr
                    > > <instructorhasgoned igital@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > One start with books on Mold and moisture issues I recommend "The
                    > Home owner's
                    > > Guide to MOLD"  Author Michael Puglies
                    > > >  
                    > > > Moisture for you falls into Summer moisture, Fall/spring moisture,
                    > and winter moisture. 
                    > > >  
                    > > > First let us say that for the Mongols Summer moisture is a
                    > blessing it's on average a dry
                    > > place.
                    > > >  
                    > > > Now for you.  Probably you have things like books and clothes and
                    > such ask yourself if
                    > > there are things you would do without in order to make this work.  I
                    > for one will not risk
                    > > my book collection and thus the library will be in a more
                    > traditional structure.  Also if you
                    > > do things like hot kettle cooking and water heating, drying clothes
                    > on an indoor clothes
                    > > line, and excessive bathing  is in the winter is potentially bad. 
                    > Moisture is going to
                    > > condense against the walls a lot it can even drip.  Your going to
                    > want an insulation layer
                    > > and when condensation is frozen it's not as much a problem but when
                    > it thaws then it's a
                    > > problem.  Long term condensation will lead to a mold problem.  Lack
                    > of insulation will
                    > > lead to high bills to fight the condensation problem.  Improperly
                    > applied and or
                    > > maintained insulation leads to uncorrected insulation problems lead
                    > to moisture leading to
                    > > mold and health issues.
                    > > >  
                    > > > Speaking of which I am moving this week from a project that my
                    > friend got a free
                    > > mobile home complete with mold and other organic toxins, and cannot
                    > come up with the
                    > > money to properly fix it in time before the September rainy season
                    > if at all.  I'm not
                    > > waisting any more time trying to fix something that's not done right
                    > when it's done.  I've
                    > > all ready been sick from this work site and am not risking a problem
                    > over and over.
                    > > >  
                    > > > Happy 4th
                    > > >  
                    > > > For those of you not American this is a holiday where we buy
                    > hongkong fireworks and
                    > > try not to burn down each others homes, celebrating the creation of
                    > our government who
                    > > has made same such fireworks against the law?
                    > > >
                    > > > --- On Wed, 7/2/08, froit1 <froit1@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > From: froit1 <froit1@>
                    > > > Subject: [The_Yurt_Community ] Re: Ger and moisture problems
                    > > > To: The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 5:02 PM
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hee, www.yurt.nl,
                    > > > www.nooitmeerhaast. nl?
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, "srphgn" <srphgn@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hello everyone,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > After searching quite a bit on the internet about yurts/gers, there
                    > > > are still some things I'm
                    > > > > not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a traditional one) soon,
                    > > > with the intention to live in
                    > > > > it.
                    > > > > I live in the Netherlands, so I'm a bit afraid of the moisture
                    > > > problems. Is it enough to fire it up
                    > > > > to keep moisture away?
                    > > > > And any tips for buying a good ger? I have a secondhand one on my
                    > > > eye, and I'm going to
                    > > > > look at it soon.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thank you very much for your advice.
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >


                  • froit1
                    I coud tell you about all, but I don t want to get to close to the commercial nono in this forum. But: No manufacturer or exporter from Mongolia has a clue, or
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 8 7:33 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I coud tell you about all, but I don't want to get to close to the
                      commercial nono in this forum.
                      But: No manufacturer or exporter from Mongolia has a clue, or 1%
                      interest in, what happens after the container is paid for and on the way.
                      And some, if not most of them, ship what falls cheapest this side,
                      shoddy work, inadequate materials.
                      Some exporters do know, and do seem to care.
                      Now you found a yurt on eBay or somewhere, then how you gonna know who
                      made it, sent it, packed it?
                      All I know is, I/we are the only ones crazy enough to demand from our
                      woodworkers that they make THE WHOLE FRAME out of larch, not only
                      walls and rofsticks, because only Mongolian Larch does not rot in
                      dutch climate.
                      Nice to know your wheel and door are gonna outlast the felts...
                      You see, the average yurt-builder here does not have the machines
                      needed to cut, shape and plane Mongolian Larch, which can be hard as
                      stone.
                      No need for impreg, no need to paint, unless you want colours..
                      So, call them guys in Baarle, make an appymnt, and lok and listen.
                      I myself wil be available for talks later, beginning august, first in
                      Ruigoord, later also in Baarle.

                      Froit


                      --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "srphgn" <srphgn@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Froit, you give me quite some points to think about!
                      > I would like to take a look in Baarle, do I have to make an appointment?
                      > Can you tell why imported gers get bad so quickly, is it the
                      material (wood/felt/cottons,
                      > lack of impregnation), or are they just too quickly and poorly made?
                      > Some importers state their gers are made suitable for the European
                      climate, by
                      > impregnating the wood, and waterproof covers. Can you please tell me
                      how you think
                      > about them?
                      >
                      > Chris, thanks for explaining, but I'm afraid all that plastic will
                      give less ventilation, so more
                      > sweat and "old" air getting trapped in, and less fresh air coming in.
                      > Is it also bad to cook with propane? I want a wood burner for warmth
                      in the ger.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "froit1" <froit1@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > No, imported ger could work for you, but:
                      > > Fire and air constantly, and move regularly, and still after a year it
                      > > looks like some old soddy piece of gook.
                      > > And no amount of money and materials spent will change that.
                      > > Get your ass over to Baarle Nassau, and go see for yourself!
                      > > There is, or at least was the last time I was there, the difference
                      > > clearly visible.
                      > > Five or six made-in-Holand-yurts, and one made-in Mongolia, but
                      > > repaired and fixed by us.
                      > > Go see the difference!
                      > > Froit
                      > >
                      > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "srphgn" <srphgn@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks for your replies.
                      > > > Froit, I have read your (you made it, not?) site for quite a few
                      > > times I think... It has been
                      > > > very helpful, but I'm not completely sure about some points. For
                      > > example, on the "the
                      > > > others" page, you say that you shouldn't buy an import ger "Unless
                      > > you are very
                      > > > experienced at pitching GER, and use them continiously when
                      > > standing, or you don't give
                      > > > a damn about throwing away a precious and rare piece of Mongolian
                      > > forest for your
                      > > > pleasure only"
                      > > > Does this mean that it will also be a bad choice to use an import
                      > > ger when used and fired
                      > > > continiously?
                      > > >
                      > > > Chris, I think it will go with the books and clothes, but I'm mostly
                      > > concerned what will
                      > > > happen to the ger itself. I don't want it to rot away in a year
                      or so.
                      > > > Good point about the freezing and thawing of the insulation, it
                      > > didn't came to my mind
                      > > > yet.
                      > > > If there is waterproof fabric on top of the felt, will the felt be
                      > > able to lose its moisture?
                      > > > Otherwise heating the ger won't make any sense.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thank you!
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, Chris Fuhr
                      > > > <instructorhasgonedigital@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > One start with books on Mold and moisture issues I recommend "The
                      > > Home owner's
                      > > > Guide to MOLD"  Author Michael Puglies
                      > > > >  
                      > > > > Moisture for you falls into Summer moisture, Fall/spring moisture,
                      > > and winter moisture. 
                      > > > >  
                      > > > > First let us say that for the Mongols Summer moisture is a
                      > > blessing it's on average a dry
                      > > > place.
                      > > > >  
                      > > > > Now for you.  Probably you have things like books and clothes and
                      > > such ask yourself if
                      > > > there are things you would do without in order to make this work.  I
                      > > for one will not risk
                      > > > my book collection and thus the library will be in a more
                      > > traditional structure.  Also if you
                      > > > do things like hot kettle cooking and water heating, drying clothes
                      > > on an indoor clothes
                      > > > line, and excessive bathing  is in the winter is potentially bad. 
                      > > Moisture is going to
                      > > > condense against the walls a lot it can even drip.  Your going to
                      > > want an insulation layer
                      > > > and when condensation is frozen it's not as much a problem but when
                      > > it thaws then it's a
                      > > > problem.  Long term condensation will lead to a mold problem.  Lack
                      > > of insulation will
                      > > > lead to high bills to fight the condensation problem.  Improperly
                      > > applied and or
                      > > > maintained insulation leads to uncorrected insulation problems lead
                      > > to moisture leading to
                      > > > mold and health issues.
                      > > > >  
                      > > > > Speaking of which I am moving this week from a project that my
                      > > friend got a free
                      > > > mobile home complete with mold and other organic toxins, and cannot
                      > > come up with the
                      > > > money to properly fix it in time before the September rainy season
                      > > if at all.  I'm not
                      > > > waisting any more time trying to fix something that's not done right
                      > > when it's done.  I've
                      > > > all ready been sick from this work site and am not risking a problem
                      > > over and over.
                      > > > >  
                      > > > > Happy 4th
                      > > > >  
                      > > > > For those of you not American this is a holiday where we buy
                      > > hongkong fireworks and
                      > > > try not to burn down each others homes, celebrating the creation of
                      > > our government who
                      > > > has made same such fireworks against the law?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- On Wed, 7/2/08, froit1 <froit1@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > From: froit1 <froit1@>
                      > > > > Subject: [The_Yurt_Community] Re: Ger and moisture problems
                      > > > > To: The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 5:02 PM
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hee, www.yurt.nl,
                      > > > > www.nooitmeerhaast. nl?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, "srphgn"
                      <srphgn@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hello everyone,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > After searching quite a bit on the internet about
                      yurts/gers, there
                      > > > > are still some things I'm
                      > > > > > not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a traditional one)
                      soon,
                      > > > > with the intention to live in
                      > > > > > it.
                      > > > > > I live in the Netherlands, so I'm a bit afraid of the moisture
                      > > > > problems. Is it enough to fire it up
                      > > > > > to keep moisture away?
                      > > > > > And any tips for buying a good ger? I have a secondhand one
                      on my
                      > > > > eye, and I'm going to
                      > > > > > look at it soon.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thank you very much for your advice.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • srphgn
                      Thanks for your effort to answer my questions. I will probably go to Baarle soon, and perhaps I will talk with you in NL. Greetings
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 11 3:54 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks for your effort to answer my questions.
                        I will probably go to Baarle soon, and perhaps I will talk with you in NL.
                        Greetings


                        --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "froit1" <froit1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I coud tell you about all, but I don't want to get to close to the
                        > commercial nono in this forum.
                        > But: No manufacturer or exporter from Mongolia has a clue, or 1%
                        > interest in, what happens after the container is paid for and on the way.
                        > And some, if not most of them, ship what falls cheapest this side,
                        > shoddy work, inadequate materials.
                        > Some exporters do know, and do seem to care.
                        > Now you found a yurt on eBay or somewhere, then how you gonna know who
                        > made it, sent it, packed it?
                        > All I know is, I/we are the only ones crazy enough to demand from our
                        > woodworkers that they make THE WHOLE FRAME out of larch, not only
                        > walls and rofsticks, because only Mongolian Larch does not rot in
                        > dutch climate.
                        > Nice to know your wheel and door are gonna outlast the felts...
                        > You see, the average yurt-builder here does not have the machines
                        > needed to cut, shape and plane Mongolian Larch, which can be hard as
                        > stone.
                        > No need for impreg, no need to paint, unless you want colours..
                        > So, call them guys in Baarle, make an appymnt, and lok and listen.
                        > I myself wil be available for talks later, beginning august, first in
                        > Ruigoord, later also in Baarle.
                        >
                        > Froit
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "srphgn" <srphgn@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Froit, you give me quite some points to think about!
                        > > I would like to take a look in Baarle, do I have to make an appointment?
                        > > Can you tell why imported gers get bad so quickly, is it the
                        > material (wood/felt/cottons,
                        > > lack of impregnation), or are they just too quickly and poorly made?
                        > > Some importers state their gers are made suitable for the European
                        > climate, by
                        > > impregnating the wood, and waterproof covers. Can you please tell me
                        > how you think
                        > > about them?
                        > >
                        > > Chris, thanks for explaining, but I'm afraid all that plastic will
                        > give less ventilation, so more
                        > > sweat and "old" air getting trapped in, and less fresh air coming in.
                        > > Is it also bad to cook with propane? I want a wood burner for warmth
                        > in the ger.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "froit1" <froit1@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > No, imported ger could work for you, but:
                        > > > Fire and air constantly, and move regularly, and still after a year it
                        > > > looks like some old soddy piece of gook.
                        > > > And no amount of money and materials spent will change that.
                        > > > Get your ass over to Baarle Nassau, and go see for yourself!
                        > > > There is, or at least was the last time I was there, the difference
                        > > > clearly visible.
                        > > > Five or six made-in-Holand-yurts, and one made-in Mongolia, but
                        > > > repaired and fixed by us.
                        > > > Go see the difference!
                        > > > Froit
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, "srphgn" <srphgn@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks for your replies.
                        > > > > Froit, I have read your (you made it, not?) site for quite a few
                        > > > times I think... It has been
                        > > > > very helpful, but I'm not completely sure about some points. For
                        > > > example, on the "the
                        > > > > others" page, you say that you shouldn't buy an import ger "Unless
                        > > > you are very
                        > > > > experienced at pitching GER, and use them continiously when
                        > > > standing, or you don't give
                        > > > > a damn about throwing away a precious and rare piece of Mongolian
                        > > > forest for your
                        > > > > pleasure only"
                        > > > > Does this mean that it will also be a bad choice to use an import
                        > > > ger when used and fired
                        > > > > continiously?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Chris, I think it will go with the books and clothes, but I'm mostly
                        > > > concerned what will
                        > > > > happen to the ger itself. I don't want it to rot away in a year
                        > or so.
                        > > > > Good point about the freezing and thawing of the insulation, it
                        > > > didn't came to my mind
                        > > > > yet.
                        > > > > If there is waterproof fabric on top of the felt, will the felt be
                        > > > able to lose its moisture?
                        > > > > Otherwise heating the ger won't make any sense.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thank you!
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com, Chris Fuhr
                        > > > > <instructorhasgonedigital@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > One start with books on Mold and moisture issues I recommend "The
                        > > > Home owner's
                        > > > > Guide to MOLD"  Author Michael Puglies
                        > > > > >  
                        > > > > > Moisture for you falls into Summer moisture, Fall/spring moisture,
                        > > > and winter moisture. 
                        > > > > >  
                        > > > > > First let us say that for the Mongols Summer moisture is a
                        > > > blessing it's on average a dry
                        > > > > place.
                        > > > > >  
                        > > > > > Now for you.  Probably you have things like books and clothes and
                        > > > such ask yourself if
                        > > > > there are things you would do without in order to make this work.  I
                        > > > for one will not risk
                        > > > > my book collection and thus the library will be in a more
                        > > > traditional structure.  Also if you
                        > > > > do things like hot kettle cooking and water heating, drying clothes
                        > > > on an indoor clothes
                        > > > > line, and excessive bathing  is in the winter is potentially bad. 
                        > > > Moisture is going to
                        > > > > condense against the walls a lot it can even drip.  Your going to
                        > > > want an insulation layer
                        > > > > and when condensation is frozen it's not as much a problem but when
                        > > > it thaws then it's a
                        > > > > problem.  Long term condensation will lead to a mold problem.  Lack
                        > > > of insulation will
                        > > > > lead to high bills to fight the condensation problem.  Improperly
                        > > > applied and or
                        > > > > maintained insulation leads to uncorrected insulation problems lead
                        > > > to moisture leading to
                        > > > > mold and health issues.
                        > > > > >  
                        > > > > > Speaking of which I am moving this week from a project that my
                        > > > friend got a free
                        > > > > mobile home complete with mold and other organic toxins, and cannot
                        > > > come up with the
                        > > > > money to properly fix it in time before the September rainy season
                        > > > if at all.  I'm not
                        > > > > waisting any more time trying to fix something that's not done right
                        > > > when it's done.  I've
                        > > > > all ready been sick from this work site and am not risking a problem
                        > > > over and over.
                        > > > > >  
                        > > > > > Happy 4th
                        > > > > >  
                        > > > > > For those of you not American this is a holiday where we buy
                        > > > hongkong fireworks and
                        > > > > try not to burn down each others homes, celebrating the creation of
                        > > > our government who
                        > > > > has made same such fireworks against the law?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- On Wed, 7/2/08, froit1 <froit1@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > From: froit1 <froit1@>
                        > > > > > Subject: [The_Yurt_Community] Re: Ger and moisture problems
                        > > > > > To: The_Yurt_Community@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 5:02 PM
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hee, www.yurt.nl,
                        > > > > > www.nooitmeerhaast. nl?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In The_Yurt_Community@ yahoogroups. com, "srphgn"
                        > <srphgn@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Hello everyone,
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > After searching quite a bit on the internet about
                        > yurts/gers, there
                        > > > > > are still some things I'm
                        > > > > > > not sure about. I am going to buy a ger (a traditional one)
                        > soon,
                        > > > > > with the intention to live in
                        > > > > > > it.
                        > > > > > > I live in the Netherlands, so I'm a bit afraid of the moisture
                        > > > > > problems. Is it enough to fire it up
                        > > > > > > to keep moisture away?
                        > > > > > > And any tips for buying a good ger? I have a secondhand one
                        > on my
                        > > > > > eye, and I'm going to
                        > > > > > > look at it soon.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Thank you very much for your advice.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.