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Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?

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  • Brother Arnold
    Simple way of putting it   With the traditional cycle when someone migrates east from Jerusalem they will keep the weekly Sabbath before someone that stays
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 11, 2009
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      Simple way of putting it
       
      With the traditional cycle when someone migrates east from Jerusalem they will keep the weekly Sabbath before someone that stays put in Jerusalem because they will meet the day first and keep the Sabbath and then it will be kept in Jerusalem when it gets to them. When the traveler travels halfway around the Earth he will be 12 hours ahead of Jerusalem in keeping of the Sabbath therefore Jerusalem will keep it 12 hours later when it comes around to them because they stayed put. So far there is no problem and when a man travels west from Jerusalem to the opposite side of the Earth he will be keeping the weekly Sabbath 12 hours AFTER Jerusalem and there is no problem here either. The problem comes in when the two travelers meet five or 10 years later and they are in the same house and they are 24 hours apart in their Sabbath keeping. In other words the Eastern traveler will still keep the Sabbath first and then the Western traveler will keep it 24 hours later which would be Sunday on the Roman calendar that is hanging on the wall. This would be against Scripture because the Scripture only teaches one Seventh day cycle for everyone and with a system that causes two people in the same house to be a day apart is confusion and the Heavenly Father is not the author confusion or such a system.
       
      SIDE NOTE: no matter where Man puts an imaginary date line the traveler will have to add or subtract a full 24 hour day when crossing it. This will affect his cycle when crossing the date line, i.e. if he just gets through with preparation day on Friday and crosses the date line he will have to keep Friday preparation day again instead of keeping the seventh day cycle on Saturday. In other words he breaks this cycle which is a no-no with the traditional cycle. He will be keeping an eight day cycle with two preparations days. If he crosses the man-made date line in the other direction it will have the opposite effect and he will be breaking the cycle by subtracting a 24-hour day and observing a six-day week. Julius Caesar obviously did not see this coming when he created the solar only months and dates but the Heavenly Father certainly would have saw it coming.
       
      There is no such thing as an uninterrupted cycle because you have to either add or should try a full 24 hour day at the International Date Line when traveling around the Earth in order to get back on the same DATE as the people in the immediate Area therefore the cycle is INTERRUPTED proving an uninterrupted cycle is impossible and should be dropped like a hot potato.
       
      With lunar months and lunar Sabbaths this problem goes away because when they meet they will be in the same moon/month even though they will still be in different day cycles because of the traveling and even if they were not the very next new moon that comes round will put them back on the same dates and days.


       Brother Arnold www.lunarsabbath.info


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Yehochanan Bey <yehochanan@...>
      To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 10:35 pm
      Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?

       
      Bro. Arnold,
      Your scenario is completely extreme.  I will give you an extreme scenario.  How would you keep Sabbath is you were an astronaut and moved to Mars for a year?  You could not because you could not view the lunar phases and we could not because a day on Mars is not the same as a day on earth.  So, what this tells us is that it is completely unreasonable scenarios have not place in a serious discussion. 
      All sabbatarians (lunar or seventh day) keep the Sabbath over a 24-hour period.  Most people keep the Sabbath at the beginning of the evening. Well, given you same scenario where a person travels east for two weeks around the world for two week.  L et assume we are at the dateline as a reference point.  Well, the lunar sabbatarians counts the days of the month with sunrises and sunsets just like everyone else.  This means that if he crosses that line, we will be a day ahead of those who did not leave. That means, for him, the new moon will occur on the 16th—not the 15th as he expected.  He will have already experienced 15 sunrises and sunset and looked up at the night sky on the 15th and NOT see a full moon! 
      That is why I said you will have the same problem!  Your monthly dates will be off.  Instead of keeping Sabbath on the 15th, you will be keeping on the 16th.  So,  you will be forced to make a choice:  keep the Sabbath on the 7th day on the 15th as you do every month even though it is not a full moon OR you will have to wait until the 8th day and keep it on the 16th which is out of order according to you normal reckoning.  You and your lunar sabbatarian brethren will be day apart.
      I am a math teacher myself!  (Wink...Wink)
      So, in both cases, it is=2 0not assumed that people will be circling the globe!  That will cause problems with dating on any almanac—including your own.  The Torah is kept on a group level.  Torah is not a personal religion like Christianity.  It is congregational. 
      And the bottom line is that people have been keeping the Sabbath in Israel and Mediterranean area since the time of the Prophets.  The Sabbath is Yah’s covenant with Israel.  This is why the count will never be lost or broken. 
      Shalom,
      Yehochanan

      --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Brother Arnold <YHWHPeople@aol. com> wrote:

      From: Brother Arnold <YHWHPeople@aol. com>
      Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?
      To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 7:36 AM

       
      Shalom All,
       
      The sun and moon was not created on day 4.
       
      In the beginning, YHWH indeed did create, and lay out, the heavens and the earth.  In this creation the moon had to exist, seeing Scripture defines the moon as a part of the heavens.
       
      When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; [Psalms 8:3]
       
      Therefore the moon was in existence before the fourth day of making heaven and earth, and specifically, before the first day of making heaven and earth.  The earth was advanced upon or made in six days, but the heavens and the earth were created in the beginning.  We memorialize creation on the seventh new moon, because YHWH laid His heavenly tabernacle on the day of the new moon, in the beginning.  This is parallel to memorializing other events in Israel’s history, such as the deliverance of Egypt, and dwelling in temporary shelters.
           This shows that the count for the Sabbath occurred after “in the beginning”, i.e. the new moon.  The seventh day was truly the Sabbath, but it was the seventh day after advancing upon the creation for six days.  In six days, YHWH did make or advance upon the heavens and the earth, but He set them out, or laid their foundation in the beginning, when the sons of Elohim shouted for joy. (Job 38:7)  The Sabbath, being a day (Gen. 2:2-3) and a season (Lev. 23:2-3), was regulated by the great lights in the heavens which were to be for signs, seasons, days, and years (Gen. 1:14-18).
       
       The moon was appointed for a purpose on d ay four, but already had existence as part of the heavens at the creation (In the beginning) along with the sun, stars, and all the planets in outer space.
       
           We might also add that for those who hold to the moon being created on the fourth day, and for those who think this proves the week cannot be regulated by the moon, seeing it began before the moon, please parallel this with the sun.  By the same logic, I could say that the sun could not regulate the year or the day, seeing both the year and the day began before the sun’s existence on day four.  This would not be sound logic.  It does not make a difference what day the sun and moon were appointed, they were still appointed for their purpose, and that purpose is to be a measurement of time or a calendar, as Genesis 1:14-18 eloquently proves.  This would include the timing of the weekly Sabbath day, which was the only appointment at that time.
       
       
           Everywhere in the Scriptures where a new moon is found or pinpointed, the next day after the new moon worship day is the first day of the week, and this is no coincidence.  The new moon can never be the first day of the week no more than t he Sabbath can be.  We are to worship on the beginning day (most specifically the 7th new moon - Lev. 23:24) and shout / blow the trumpets to commemorate the creation at each new moon, and on the Sabbath we are to blow the trumpets and worship to commemorate His rest after working on His creation for six days.
       
      On the fourth day of making heaven and earth, the moon was advanced upon.  Would it not make logical sense for this portion of YHWH’s calendar to reflect the previous three or four days that happened prior?  An example lies in the heavenly body of the sun.  The sun would reflect the fourth working day of the year, instead of day four being the first day of the year.  Likewise, the moon would reflect the previous allotted days of the month, instead of being a new=2 0moon on day four. 
       
      The appointing on day four does not mean that it was the first day of the month, or that the moon was in a new moon phase at all.  It makes logical sense for the sun and moon to reflect the days gone by.  The first year in creation would have been 365 ¼ days, just the same as all the other years in Scripture.  This would be in lieu of the first year in creation having 361 ¼ days, which would be the sum of the regular yearly length, minus four days.
       
           We believe that the sun would be in a fourth working day position in the sky on day four.  The moon would also reflect the fourth working day of the month, especially if it was to be for appointments (Ps. 104:19).  It would be a moon four working days old, just between a sliver and a half moon.  In other words,=2 0the very first work day in creation could have been the first work day of the year, the first work day of the month/moon, and the first work day of the week, and not only the first work day of the week as many teach.
       
           Would it not make more sense for the first workday to be the first workday of the year, month, and week ins tead of the first day of the week only?  Why cannot the first day be the first day of everything?
       
           If the fourth workday of the week was also the fourth workday of the month, then the seventh day of the week would be after the six workdays and would be the eighth day of the month, by accepting that there was a space of time before the first workday - in the beginning when He created the heavens and earth, before He worked on them for 6 days.  Even if there were not a dark new moon before the first workday, there would indeed be one in the second month in Genesis.
      < div style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class=MsoNormal> 
           Nowhere in Scripture does it say YHWH created the heaven and earth in six days.  It does say “…for in six days YHWH made heaven and earth (Ex. 20:11).”  The word made has the meaning of advanced upon and not created.  He worked or advanced upon His creation for six days, and rested the seventh day.  This would be the eighth event happening from the creation, i.e. the dark moon in the beginning; the day of shoutings.
       
      1. He created heaven and earth. (The Day of Shoutings)
      2. He worked on them for six days and the sixth workday would have been the seventh event accomplished, seeing the first thing YHWH did was create heaven and earth. 1 + 6 = 7.
      3. The eighth event in sequence was the rest on the seventh day, after six days of working on His creation.
       
           In studying this aspect of the Sabbath, keep in mind that there are two different underlying Hebrew words for the English translations of created and made in Genesis one.
       
      CREATED H1254 bara’ baw-raw' A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
       
      MADE H6213 ‛aśah aw-saw' A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application:—accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fight-] ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfil, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, practise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.
       
           For those who believe the sun and the moon were created on day four, here is something to consider.  The word appointed in Psalms 104:19 is the same word in Genesis 1:14 where it states that Elohim “…made two great lights”.  The word made, could have been translated as appointed, same as in Psm-104:19.  The question is, when did He appoint the moon for seasons? 
       
      Was it not in Genesis 1:14 where it says that He made/appointed the great lights for seasons?  When you make someone a captain of a team, or appoint them captain, it means that they were already there standing, waiting for you to appoint them.  Remember, you had evening and morning three times before day four.  You also had light, green organisms, night and day, creation of heaven and earth, etc. before He made/appointed the sun and moon to rule day and night.   
       
      Where do you think the heavenly bodies were before He appointed them?  At least one ancient Hebrew scholar would agree that they were already in existence.
       
      “The luminaries, which had been created on the first day, were set in place on the fourth”. The Tanach, Stone Edition, commentary of Rashi on Genesis 1:14.
       
           There is no evidence to support the theory that the great lights were created, brand new, on day four, but rather they were appointed on the fourth day or advanced upon for His calendar, to beacon His appointments.  Even if someone insists that the sun and moon were created on day four they would still be there in plenty of time to do what they were created, made, and appointed to do, and that is to be a beacon for YHWH’s appointments, including the weekly appointment.  That way you will know that it is YHWH that sanctifies/set you apart instead of man with his man-made calendar, with the man-made calendar you don't know who it is that set you part by dictating to you when to begin the count for the seventh day. (see Exodus 31:13 and Ezekiel 20:12).
       


      0D
       Brother Arnold www.lunarsabbath. info


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Yehochanan Bey <yehochanan@yahoo. com>
      To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
      Sent: Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:17 pm
      Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?

       
      Shalom John,
      You asked, Can you please provide the references to the sages that say "the night does not exist" or that it is "an illusion", etc.?
      Well, I think that I oversimplified the Sages position just a tad bit! /I>
      I have no idea if there will continue to be days and nights in the World to Come.  We definitely know that the will be evenings during the Millennial Reign (Ezekiel 46:2), which implies that there will be night. Many times, those terms are using in metaphoric sense.  We cannot take verse literally.  The most important thing is to understand them at the spiritual level.
      My point about night being an illusion is that, if the sun and moon were not created until the fourth day, then how could there be a literal day and night before that time given the days are determined by the sun?
      Well if the days, prior to that time, were not governed by the sun, then the original order is not based on the sun.  In that sense, we can say that the night is an illusion in the sense that it will not determine days in the End.  Yet, we will always keep Torah (as far as I know).  Therefore, in the sense that I do not believe it will signal the Sabbath in the=2 0end since it did not signal the next day in the beginning.  Since the Bible says that the Creator will be our light, we will not need night and day to determine new days.
      As for your question about the covenant of day an d night, it is explained by the Sages that Day is Right and Night is Left.  The right is always associated with mercy and faith while the left is associated with justice and merit.  Hence, the covenant of day and night is the perfect unison of judgment/merit within mercy/faith, which is Truth (Love/Compassion) and the Torah.  Truly, the Torah is the perfect balance of mercy and justice and the embodiment of Love.  The Covenant represents the Righteousness.  So, stated another way, the Creator is saying, My Righteousness is the perfect balance and unification of mercy and justice (Truth/Torah) .  There is a lot more to it. Traditionally, justice is attributed to Isaac, mercy to Abraham and truth to Jacob.  Hence, we usually see hear Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, all together.  That is just the short version.  Here is a sample verse.
      Micah 7:20  Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.
      Shalom,
      Yehochanan


      --- On Sat, 8/15/09, John Cordaro <jvcordaro@intergate .com> wrote:

      From: John Cordaro <jvcordaro@intergate .com>
      Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?
      To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:18 AM

       
      Shalom Yehochanan,

      Can you please provide the references to the sages that say "the night does not exist" or that it is "an illusion", etc.?

      Also, please harmonize your statement that there will be "no night" with the following passage (Jer 33:20-26):

      20 * Thus saith YHWH; If you can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
       21* Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
       22* As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
       23*=2 0Moreover the word of YHWH came to Jeremiah, saying,
       24* Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which YHWH hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
       25* Thus saith YHWH; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
       26* Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I wil l not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

      I understand that there will be no need of the sun or moon in New Jerusalem (within the city), but outside where the nations dwell day and night will continue as long as Messiah Yahshua reigns on the throne of David.

      Shabbat Shalom,
      John



      On Aug 14, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Yehochanan Bey wrote:


      Shalom Voixderaison,
      You said, The old claim that Jews changed the reckoning of a day changed from dawn to dusk to conform with the supposed Babylonian evening to evening day is still making its rounds on this forum.
      Then you ask, To those who repeat this claim, what is your primary source?
      There are three definitions of the word, day, in the Bible: daylight hours, the time it take the earth to revolve around sun or an age (generally 1000 years).
      If we stud y the instructions governing the observance of the Holy Seasons (Moediym), a distinction is made between day/night and often times between morning, noon and night.  So, the context of the concept of  day is not an approximately 24-hour period.  In the case of the Moediym, the definition of day as meaning the daylight hours is applied.  Therefore, some believe that the rabbinical Jews changed the meaning of the concept of a day to fit their doctrine.  This is not true.
      In the beginning, there was no night and, in the end, there will be no night.  Therefore, the Jews keep the Torah as though the night does not exist.  The night merely signals when the next day would truly begin. Most agree that the day ends in the evening.   When Mashiach comes, the Moediym will continue.  So, if the night is abolished, then the day will begin at the time we now consider nightfall.  Stated another way, the time will call, Night, will be a time of Light in the World to Come. 
      Rabbinical Judaism does not believe that we can keep the Torah in captivity.  / SPAN>So, they keep the Commandments and Moediym in preparation for the Redemption of Israel—the Messianic age.  In other words, they do not acknowledge the night.  The night is an illusion.  Day will replace the time period we consider night.  So, this is why they do the Holy Days beginning in the evening.  It has nothing to do with them believing that the day begins at night.  Again, they do not believe the night exists.  In Genesis 1, we learned that three days elapsed before the creation of the sun and moon.  So, the sun and moon do not determine the days.  They do so, now, only temporarily.  When Mashiach comes, the days will not be determined by the sun in the sky.  The Creator will be our light.   The original order of things is perpetual day.  So, they keep the Moediym at the appointed time regardless of the fact that the daylightappears late or is interrupted by night.  This is a verse that is representative of this belief.
      Isaiah 60:19  The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but YHWH shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy Elohiym thy glory.
      Revelation 21:22  And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb  is the light thereof.
       
      So, they begin the Holy Days in the evening because this is the original and final order of things.  The sun did not originally determine the day. This is only a temporary situation.
      So, IN TRUTH, the distinction is that the rabbinical Jews deal with the original/final order of a day while others believe that the day is strictly determined by the appearance of the sun.  Those of the latter opinion will not begin doing 24-hours Sabbaths when Mashiach comes since Yeshau says that there are only (at present) 12 hours in a day (John 11:9).  On the contrary, the rabbinical Jews are keeping 24-hours Sabbaths because thi s is the original and final order of things.  In the end, all will be doing 24-hours Sabbaths since the concept of day and night will vanish.
      If we read the actual words of the Jewish sages, we will see that they arefar from confused on this issue.  It just so happens that modern Jews (even the rabbis) only know the tradition with no knowledge of WHY the sages set things up the way they have.   So, they obey the instructions of the sages as given in the Talmud and Midrashiym without the benefit of having the explanations.
      So, in my opinion, if we keep the Moediym with the proper intention and knowledge, then he is fine.  Again, the rabbinical sages do not teach that the Sabbath is at night since they do not acknowledge the night. &n bsp;I can explain this better with an allegory.
      Say, for example, a person believes that a day is during the daylight hours and that it is the Sabbath.  Then he will wait for sunrise to keep the Sabbath since the bible does say that the day is when the sun dominates (Genesis 1:16). 
      All RIGHT!  Now, let us imagine that there is a total solar eclipse at high noon on the Sabbath.  Keep in mind, the definition of day is not based on the position of the sun.  It is based on when the sun dominates.  Since the sun is covered by the moon and cannot shed any light, does this mean that the Sabbath is su spended.  Of course not.  Because we know that, even though an eclipse is occurring, it is still the normal time of the sun’s dominance.  So, the Sabbath will continue.   Similarly, no one will consider the dark state of the earth to be night, the end of the day or the end of the Sabbath even though there is a break in daylight.&nbs p; In both cases, everyone will deal with the normal cycle.  So, the Sabbath will end at evening as it always does.
      So, the Jews see the night the same way as the dawn-to-dusk people would interpret a solar eclipse.  It does not matter if it is pitch black outside.  Both will observe the Moediym at the appointed time.  So, again, the rabbinical Jews see the night as an anomaly and temporary situation. Since the Truth and the Torah does not change and is eternal, they believe that there should be no change in the times that we keep the Moediym. Given that the 24-hours Sabbath is the one that will be kept in the Millennial Age and beyond, it must be the real one.  That is why they do it.
      Personally, I keep the Holy Days with respect to the day and night cycle. For me, Yom Kippur is observed on the 10th DAY SEASON of the Seventh month.  But, I do understand why the Jews do it why they do and I do not disagree.  I know from their20words why they do it that way and it has nothing to do with the Babylonians.  The issue is whether or not one will keep the Moediym with respect to the current sun-moon cycle  orin accordance to the way it will be done from the time Mashiach returns and beyond. At that time, all days will be approximately 24-hours.
      If we would actually read the interpretations of the rabbinical Jews instead of listening to the Christian Sacred-Namers who hate Jews and have never laid an eye on one explanation of the Sages, we would understand that their beliefs are not based on Babylonian or any other influence.  Such people claim the Bible is corrupted so that they can insert their own doctrine.  Instead of relying on the Bible (because they believe it is corrupted), you have rely on their interpretations of it.  I have not seen anyone match the wisdom of the Jewish sages.  NO ONE!  Instead of looking at the external observances, we must read the reasons from theminstead of listening to lies and false teachings based in misinformation and bigotry.  The ex-Christian Sacred-Namers already hated the Jews from their indoctrination in the Church.  When the left the church, they keep the hatred from Jews.  That is all I have.
      Shalom,
      Yehochanan

      --- On Fri, 8/14/09, voixderaison@ rocketmail. com <voixderaison@ rocketmail. com> wrote:

      From: voixderaison@ rocketmail. com <voixderaison@ rocketmail. com>
      Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?
      To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 11:39 AM

       
      The old claim that Jews changed the reckoning of a day changed from dawn to dusk to conform with the supposed Babylonian evening to evening day is still making its rounds on this forum. 

      1. To those who repeat this claim, what is your primary source?

      2. How do you figure that Judaism is precisely the opposite of Babylonians religion? Is that the standard by which Judaism is to be measured?

      3. Who has the authority to decide such a matter for Israel?






    • tracy6005
      This would be against Scripture because the Scripture only teaches one Seventh day cycle for everyone and with a system that causes two people in the same
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 12, 2009
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         "This would be against Scripture because the Scripture only teaches one Seventh day cycle for everyone and with a system that causes two people in the same house to be a day apart is confusion" -- Arnold

        According to your reasoning, there would be still be confusion because if one man keep shabbath twelve hours later in the day; then the other man would be keeping shabbath at night.  So how can these two men keep shabbath during the DAY light when twelve hours would put one of them in the dark?


        The fact is that YAHWEH knows that our round earth has twelve hours of darkness on one side of the earth.  And that those people would be sleeping and not observing a holy day until that DAY arrives.  And since the earth rotates counter-clockwise, that means Yum Shabbath would arrive at their land at sunrise 12 hours later. 

        Also, YAHWEH is aware of an world date line.  He knows that four dividing lines existing dividing the earth:

        1. Dividing Line for Day
        2. Dividing Line for Evening
        3. Dividing Line for Night
        4. Dividing Line for Morning

        The beginning of the day counting is in Aeretz Yishrael.  Any land to the west of her borders is considered one day behind:  Hence, Sunday would be the seventh-day Shabbath in those lands until you reach twelve parts eastward from the border of Yishrael.

        So even if you travel 24 hours in either direction; the people of the land will tell you which longitidue and latitude you are so that you can see on the map where you are located in relation to the land of Yishrael.  In other words, the people of that (and not the traveler) is the keeper of day of the week and months.  The same concept applies if you were blind folded and shipped all over the world with no reference to as where you are.  You would have to rely on the people to tell you where you are in the land if you have no map or GPS.

      • Gilbert Ventura
        Shalom Everybody,       The Father of Lights is the REAL SCIENTIST OF THE WHOLE CREATION...Universes, Galaxies etc.        This means The Father is
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 12, 2009
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          Shalom Everybody,
                The Father of Lights is the REAL SCIENTIST OF THE WHOLE CREATION...Universes, Galaxies etc.
                 This means The Father is the real Geneticist, Astronomist, Physicist etc...

          Bro.Gilberto



          --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Brother Arnold <YHWHPeople@...> wrote:

          From: Brother Arnold <YHWHPeople@...>
          Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?
          To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, 11 September, 2009, 10:02 PM

           


          Simple way of putting it
           
          With the traditional cycle when someone migrates east from Jerusalem they will keep the weekly Sabbath before someone that stays put in Jerusalem because they will meet the day first and keep the Sabbath and then it will be kept in Jerusalem when it gets to them. When the traveler travels halfway around the Earth he will be 12 hours ahead of Jerusalem in keeping of the Sabbath therefore Jerusalem will keep it 12 hours later when it comes around to them because they stayed put. So far there is no problem and when a man travels west from Jerusalem to the opposite side of the Earth he will be keeping the weekly Sabbath 12 hours AFTER Jerusalem and there is no problem here either. The problem comes in when the two travelers meet five or 10 years later and they are in the same house and they are 24 hours apart in their Sabbath keeping. In other words the Eastern traveler will still keep the Sabbath first and then the Western traveler will keep it 24 hours later which would be Sunday on the Roman calendar that is hanging on the wall. This would be against Scripture because the Scripture only teaches one Seventh day cycle for everyone and with a system that causes two people in the same house to be a day apart is confusion and the Heavenly Father is not the author confusion or such a system.
           
          SIDE NOTE: no matter where Man puts an imaginary date line the traveler will have to add or subtract a full 24 hour day when crossing it. This will affect his cycle when crossing the date line, i.e. if he just gets through with preparation day on Friday and crosses the date line he will have to keep Friday preparation day again instead of keeping the seventh day cycle on Saturday. In other words he breaks this cycle which is a no-no with the traditional cycle. He will be keeping an eight day cycle with two preparations days. If he crosses the man-made date line in the other direction it will have the opposite effect and he will be breaking the cycle by subtracting a 24-hour day and observing a six-day week. Julius Caesar obviously did not see this coming when he created the solar only months and dates but the Heavenly Father certainly would have saw it coming.
           
          There is no such thing as an uninterrupted cycle because you have to either add or should try a full 24 hour day at the International Date Line when traveling around the Earth in order to get back on the same DATE as the people in the immediate Area therefore the cycle is INTERRUPTED proving an uninterrupted cycle is impossible and should be dropped like a hot potato.
           
          With lunar months and lunar Sabbaths this problem goes away because when they meet they will be in the same moon/month even though they will still be in different day cycles because of the traveling and even if they were not the very next new moon that comes round will put them back on the same dates and days.


           Brother Arnold www.lunarsabbath. info


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Yehochanan Bey <yehochanan@yahoo. com>
          To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
          Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 10:35 pm
          Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?

           
          Bro. Arnold,
          Your scenario is completely extreme.  I will give you an extreme scenario.  How would you keep Sabbath is you were an astronaut and moved to Mars for a year?  You could not because you could not view the lunar phases and we could not because a day on Mars is not the same as a day on earth.  So, what this tells us is that it is completely unreasonable scenarios have not place in a serious discussion. 
          All sabbatarians (lunar or seventh day) keep the Sabbath over a 24-hour period.  Most people keep the Sabbath at the beginning of the evening. Well, given you same scenario where a person travels east for two weeks around the world for two week.  L et assume we are at the dateline as a reference point.  Well, the lunar sabbatarians counts the days of the month with sunrises and sunsets just like everyone else.  This means that if he crosses that line, we will be a day ahead of those who did not leave. That means, for him, the new moon will occur on the 16th—not the 15th as he expected.  He will have already experienced 15 sunrises and sunset and looked up at the night sky on the 15th and NOT see a full moon! 
          That is why I said you will have the same problem!  Your monthly dates will be off.  Instead of keeping Sabbath on the 15th, you will be keeping on the 16th.  So,  you will be forced to make a choice:  keep the Sabbath on the 7th day on the 15th as you do every month even though it is not a full moon OR you will have to wait until the 8th day and keep it on the 16th which is out of order according to you normal reckoning.  You and your lunar sabbatarian brethren will be day apart.
          I am a math teacher myself!  (Wink...Wink)
          So, in both cases, it is=2 0not assumed that people will be circling the globe!  That will cause problems with dating on any almanac—including your own.  The Torah is kept on a group level.  Torah is not a personal religion like Christianity.  It is congregational. 
          And the bottom line is that people have been keeping the Sabbath in Israel and Mediterranean area since the time of the Prophets.  The Sabbath is Yah’s covenant with Israel.  This is why the count will never be lost or broken. 
          Shalom,
          Yehochanan

          --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Brother Arnold <YHWHPeople@aol. com> wrote:

          From: Brother Arnold <YHWHPeople@aol. com>
          Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?
          To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
          Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 7:36 AM

           
          Shalom All,
           
          The sun and moon was not created on day 4.
           
          In the beginning, YHWH indeed did create, and lay out, the heavens and the earth.  In this creation the moon had to exist, seeing Scripture defines the moon as a part of the heavens.
           
          When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; [Psalms 8:3]
           
          Therefore the moon was in existence before the fourth day of making heaven and earth, and specifically, before the first day of making heaven and earth.  The earth was advanced upon or made in six days, but the heavens and the earth were created in the beginning.  We memorialize creation on the seventh new moon, because YHWH laid His heavenly tabernacle on the day of the new moon, in the beginning.  This is parallel to memorializing other events in Israel’s history, such as the deliverance of Egypt, and dwelling in temporary shelters.
               This shows that the count for the Sabbath occurred after “in the beginning”, i.e. the new moon.  The seventh day was truly the Sabbath, but it was the seventh day after advancing upon the creation for six days.  In six days, YHWH did make or advance upon the heavens and the earth, but He set them out, or laid their foundation in the beginning, when the sons of Elohim shouted for joy. (Job 38:7)  The Sabbath, being a day (Gen. 2:2-3) and a season (Lev. 23:2-3), was regulated by the great lights in the heavens which were to be for signs, seasons, days, and years (Gen. 1:14-18).
           
           The moon was appointed for a purpose on d ay four, but already had existence as part of the heavens at the creation (In the beginning) along with the sun, stars, and all the planets in outer space.
           
               We might also add that for those who hold to the moon being created on the fourth day, and for those who think this proves the week cannot be regulated by the moon, seeing it began before the moon, please parallel this with the sun.  By the same logic, I could say that the sun could not regulate the year or the day, seeing both the year and the day began before the sun’s existence on day four.  This would not be sound logic.  It does not make a difference what day the sun and moon were appointed, they were still appointed for their purpose, and that purpose is to be a measurement of time or a calendar, as Genesis 1:14-18 eloquently proves.  This would include the timing of the weekly Sabbath day, which was the only appointment at that time.
           
           
               Everywhere in the Scriptures where a new moon is found or pinpointed, the next day after the new moon worship day is the first day of the week, and this is no coincidence.  The new moon can never be the first day of the week no more than t he Sabbath can be.  We are to worship on the beginning day (most specifically the 7th new moon - Lev. 23:24) and shout / blow the trumpets to commemorate the creation at each new moon, and on the Sabbath we are to blow the trumpets and worship to commemorate His rest after working on His creation for six days.
           
          On the fourth day of making heaven and earth, the moon was advanced upon.  Would it not make logical sense for this portion of YHWH’s calendar to reflect the previous three or four days that happened prior?  An example lies in the heavenly body of the sun.  The sun would reflect the fourth working day of the year, instead of day four being the first day of the year.  Likewise, the moon would reflect the previous allotted days of the month, instead of being a new=2 0moon on day four. 
           
          The appointing on day four does not mean that it was the first day of the month, or that the moon was in a new moon phase at all.  It makes logical sense for the sun and moon to reflect the days gone by.  The first year in creation would have been 365 ¼ days, just the same as all the other years in Scripture.  This would be in lieu of the first year in creation having 361 ¼ days, which would be the sum of the regular yearly length, minus four days.
           
               We believe that the sun would be in a fourth working day position in the sky on day four.  The moon would also reflect the fourth working day of the month, especially if it was to be for appointments (Ps. 104:19).  It would be a moon four working days old, just between a sliver and a half moon.  In other words,=2 0the very first work day in creation could have been the first work day of the year, the first work day of the month/moon, and the first work day of the week, and not only the first work day of the week as many teach.
           
               Would it not make more sense for the first workday to be the first workday of the year, month, and week ins tead of the first day of the week only?  Why cannot the first day be the first day of everything?
           
               If the fourth workday of the week was also the fourth workday of the month, then the seventh day of the week would be after the six workdays and would be the eighth day of the month, by accepting that there was a space of time before the first workday - in the beginning when He created the heavens and earth, before He worked on them for 6 days.  Even if there were not a dark new moon before the first workday, there would indeed be one in the second month in Genesis.
          div style="TEXT- ALIGN: justify" class=MsoNormal> 
               Nowhere in Scripture does it say YHWH created the heaven and earth in six days.  It does say “…for in six days YHWH made heaven and earth (Ex. 20:11).”  The word made has the meaning of advanced upon and not created.  He worked or advanced upon His creation for six days, and rested the seventh day.  This would be the eighth event happening from the creation, i.e. the dark moon in the beginning; the day of shoutings.
           
          1. He created heaven and earth. (The Day of Shoutings)
          2. He worked on them for six days and the sixth workday would have been the seventh event accomplished, seeing the first thing YHWH did was create heaven and earth. 1 + 6 = 7.
          3. The eighth event in sequence was the rest on the seventh day, after six days of working on His creation.
           
               In studying this aspect of the Sabbath, keep in mind that there are two different underlying Hebrew words for the English translations of created and made in Genesis one.
           
          CREATED H1254 bara’ baw-raw' A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
           
          MADE H6213 ‛aśah aw-saw' A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application:—accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fight-] ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfil, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, practise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.
           
               For those who believe the sun and the moon were created on day four, here is something to consider.  The word appointed in Psalms 104:19 is the same word in Genesis 1:14 where it states that Elohim “…made two great lights”.  The word made, could have been translated as appointed, same as in Psm-104:19.  The question is, when did He appoint the moon for seasons? 
           
          Was it not in Genesis 1:14 where it says that He made/appointed the great lights for seasons?  When you make someone a captain of a team, or appoint them captain, it means that they were already there standing, waiting for you to appoint them.  Remember, you had evening and morning three times before day four.  You also had light, green organisms, night and day, creation of heaven and earth, etc. before He made/appointed the sun and moon to rule day and night.   
           
          Where do you think the heavenly bodies were before He appointed them?  At least one ancient Hebrew scholar would agree that they were already in existence.
           
          “The luminaries, which had been created on the first day, were set in place on the fourth”. The Tanach, Stone Edition, commentary of Rashi on Genesis 1:14.
           
               There is no evidence to support the theory that the great lights were created, brand new, on day four, but rather they were appointed on the fourth day or advanced upon for His calendar, to beacon His appointments.  Even if someone insists that the sun and moon were created on day four they would still be there in plenty of time to do what they were created, made, and appointed to do, and that is to be a beacon for YHWH’s appointments, including the weekly appointment.  That way you will know that it is YHWH that sanctifies/set you apart instead of man with his man-made calendar, with the man-made calendar you don't know who it is that set you part by dictating to you when to begin the count for the seventh day. (see Exodus 31:13 and Ezekiel 20:12).
           


          0D
           Brother Arnold www.lunarsabbath. info


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Yehochanan Bey <yehochanan@yahoo. com>
          To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
          Sent: Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:17 pm
          Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?

           
          Shalom John,
          You asked, Can you please provide the references to the sages that say "the night does not exist" or that it is "an illusion", etc.?
          Well, I think that I oversimplified the Sages position just a tad bit! /I>
          I have no idea if there will continue to be days and nights in the World to Come.  We definitely know that the will be evenings during the Millennial Reign (Ezekiel 46:2), which implies that there will be night. Many times, those terms are using in metaphoric sense.  We cannot take verse literally.  The most important thing is to understand them at the spiritual level.
          My point about night being an illusion is that, if the sun and moon were not created until the fourth day, then how could there be a literal day and night before that time given the days are determined by the sun?
          Well if the days, prior to that time, were not governed by the sun, then the original order is not based on the sun.  In that sense, we can say that the night is an illusion in the sense that it will not determine days in the End.  Yet, we will always keep Torah (as far as I know).  Therefore, in the sense that I do not believe it will signal the Sabbath in the=2 0end since it did not signal the next day in the beginning.  Since the Bible says that the Creator will be our light, we will not need night and day to determine new days.
          As for your question about the covenant of day an d night, it is explained by the Sages that Day is Right and Night is Left.  The right is always associated with mercy and faith while the left is associated with justice and merit.  Hence, the covenant of day and night is the perfect unison of judgment/merit within mercy/faith, which is Truth (Love/Compassion) and the Torah.  Truly, the Torah is the perfect balance of mercy and justice and the embodiment of Love.  The Covenant represents the Righteousness.  So, stated another way, the Creator is saying, My Righteousness is the perfect balance and unification of mercy and justice (Truth/Torah) .  There is a lot more to it. Traditionally, justice is attributed to Isaac, mercy to Abraham and truth to Jacob.  Hence, we usually see hear Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, all together.  That is just the short version.  Here is a sample verse.
          Micah 7:20  Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.
          Shalom,
          Yehochanan


          --- On Sat, 8/15/09, John Cordaro <jvcordaro@intergate .com> wrote:

          From: John Cordaro <jvcordaro@intergate .com>
          Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?
          To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
          Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:18 AM

           
          Shalom Yehochanan,

          Can you please provide the references to the sages that say "the night does not exist" or that it is "an illusion", etc.?

          Also, please harmonize your statement that there will be "no night" with the following passage (Jer 33:20-26):

          20 * Thus saith YHWH; If you can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
           21* Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
           22* As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
           23*=2 0Moreover the word of YHWH came to Jeremiah, saying,
           24* Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which YHWH hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
           25* Thus saith YHWH; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
           26* Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I wil l not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

          I understand that there will be no need of the sun or moon in New Jerusalem (within the city), but outside where the nations dwell day and night will continue as long as Messiah Yahshua reigns on the throne of David.

          Shabbat Shalom,
          John



          On Aug 14, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Yehochanan Bey wrote:


          Shalom Voixderaison,
          You said, The old claim that Jews changed the reckoning of a day changed from dawn to dusk to conform with the supposed Babylonian evening to evening day is still making its rounds on this forum.
          Then you ask, To those who repeat this claim, what is your primary source?
          There are three definitions of the word, day, in the Bible: daylight hours, the time it take the earth to revolve around sun or an age (generally 1000 years).
          If we stud y the instructions governing the observance of the Holy Seasons (Moediym), a distinction is made between day/night and often times between morning, noon and night.  So, the context of the concept of  day is not an approximately 24-hour period.  In the case of the Moediym, the definition of day as meaning the daylight hours is applied.  Therefore, some believe that the rabbinical Jews changed the meaning of the concept of a day to fit their doctrine.  This is not true.
          In the beginning, there was no night and, in the end, there will be no night.  Therefore, the Jews keep the Torah as though the night does not exist.  The night merely signals when the next day would truly begin. Most agree that the day ends in the evening.   When Mashiach comes, the Moediym will continue.  So, if the night is abolished, then the day will begin at the time we now consider nightfall.  Stated another way, the time will call, Night, will be a time of Light in the World to Come. 
          Rabbinical Judaism does not believe that we can keep the Torah in captivity.  / SPAN>So, they keep the Commandments and Moediym in preparation for the Redemption of Israel—the Messianic age.  In other words, they do not acknowledge the night.  The night is an illusion.  Day will replace the time period we consider night.  So, this is why they do the Holy Days beginning in the evening.  It has nothing to do with them believing that the day begins at night.  Again, they do not believe the night exists.  In Genesis 1, we learned that three days elapsed before the creation of the sun and moon.  So, the sun and moon do not determine the days.  They do so, now, only temporarily.  When Mashiach comes, the days will not be determined by the sun in the sky.  The Creator will be our light.   The original order of things is perpetual day.  So, they keep the Moediym at the appointed time regardless of the fact that the daylightappears late or is interrupted by night.  This is a verse that is representative of this belief.
          Isaiah 60:19  The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but YHWH shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy Elohiym thy glory.
          Revelation 21:22  And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb  is the light thereof.
           
          So, they begin the Holy Days in the evening because this is the original and final order of things.  The sun did not originally determine the day. This is only a temporary situation.
          So, IN TRUTH, the distinction is that the rabbinical Jews deal with the original/final order of a day while others believe that the day is strictly determined by the appearance of the sun.  Those of the latter opinion will not begin doing 24-hours Sabbaths when Mashiach comes since Yeshau says that there are only (at present) 12 hours in a day (John 11:9).  On the contrary, the rabbinical Jews are keeping 24-hours Sabbaths because thi s is the original and final order of things.  In the end, all will be doing 24-hours Sabbaths since the concept of day and night will vanish.
          If we read the actual words of the Jewish sages, we will see that they arefar from confused on this issue.  It just so happens that modern Jews (even the rabbis) only know the tradition with no knowledge of WHY the sages set things up the way they have.   So, they obey the instructions of the sages as given in the Talmud and Midrashiym without the benefit of having the explanations.
          So, in my opinion, if we keep the Moediym with the proper intention and knowledge, then he is fine.  Again, the rabbinical sages do not teach that the Sabbath is at night since they do not acknowledge the night. &n bsp;I can explain this better with an allegory.
          Say, for example, a person believes that a day is during the daylight hours and that it is the Sabbath.  Then he will wait for sunrise to keep the Sabbath since the bible does say that the day is when the sun dominates (Genesis 1:16). 
          All RIGHT!  Now, let us imagine that there is a total solar eclipse at high noon on the Sabbath.  Keep in mind, the definition of day is not based on the position of the sun.  It is based on when the sun dominates.  Since the sun is covered by the moon and cannot shed any light, does this mean that the Sabbath is su spended.  Of course not.  Because we know that, even though an eclipse is occurring, it is still the normal time of the sun’s dominance.  So, the Sabbath will continue.   Similarly, no one will consider the dark state of the earth to be night, the end of the day or the end of the Sabbath even though there is a break in daylight.&nbs p; In both cases, everyone will deal with the normal cycle.  So, the Sabbath will end at evening as it always does.
          So, the Jews see the night the same way as the dawn-to-dusk people would interpret a solar eclipse.  It does not matter if it is pitch black outside.  Both will observe the Moediym at the appointed time.  So, again, the rabbinical Jews see the night as an anomaly and temporary situation. Since the Truth and the Torah does not change and is eternal, they believe that there should be no change in the times that we keep the Moediym. Given that the 24-hours Sabbath is the one that will be kept in the Millennial Age and beyond, it must be the real one.  That is why they do it.
          Personally, I keep the Holy Days with respect to the day and night cycle. For me, Yom Kippur is observed on the 10th DAY SEASON of the Seventh month.  But, I do understand why the Jews do it why they do and I do not disagree.  I know from their20words why they do it that way and it has nothing to do with the Babylonians.  The issue is whether or not one will keep the Moediym with respect to the current sun-moon cycle  orin accordance to the way it will be done from the time Mashiach returns and beyond. At that time, all days will be approximately 24-hours.
          If we would actually read the interpretations of the rabbinical Jews instead of listening to the Christian Sacred-Namers who hate Jews and have never laid an eye on one explanation of the Sages, we would understand that their beliefs are not based on Babylonian or any other influence.  Such people claim the Bible is corrupted so that they can insert their own doctrine.  Instead of relying on the Bible (because they believe it is corrupted), you have rely on their interpretations of it.  I have not seen anyone match the wisdom of the Jewish sages.  NO ONE!  Instead of looking at the external observances, we must read the reasons from theminstead of listening to lies and false teachings based in misinformation and bigotry.  The ex-Christian Sacred-Namers already hated the Jews from their indoctrination in the Church.  When the left the church, they keep the hatred from Jews.  That is all I have.
          Shalom,
          Yehochanan

          --- On Fri, 8/14/09, voixderaison@ rocketmail. com <voixderaison@ rocketmail. com> wrote:

          From: voixderaison@ rocketmail. com <voixderaison@ rocketmail. com>
          Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Babylonian Evening to Evening Day - Says Who Exactly?
          To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
          Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 11:39 AM

           
          The old claim that Jews changed the reckoning of a day changed from dawn to dusk to conform with the supposed Babylonian evening to evening day is still making its rounds on this forum. 

          1. To those who repeat this claim, what is your primary source?

          2. How do you figure that Judaism is precisely the opposite of Babylonians religion? Is that the standard by which Judaism is to be measured?

          3. Who has the authority to decide such a matter for Israel?








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        • Herb Crow
          Forgive me, if you can, but I tend to smile and chuckle a bit when I read of folks wrestling over how to mark a sabbath (day of rest) as if one of the
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 23, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Forgive me, if you can, but I tend to smile and chuckle a bit when I read of folks wrestling over how to mark a "sabbath" (day of rest) as if one of the ancients with questions only possible after travel over the speed of 10 miles an hour became possible.  Keep your focus on the obvious - one detail to remember is we speed about and can fly over a "date line".  Our ancestors didn't have this option, nor was it an issue.  They simply noticed what "phase", or "face" was upon the moon where they were.  Their "common" travel speed rarely passed 10 mph, and then only for a short time.  They never did see how they could "out-race" the sun, or the moon, therefore a "date-line" conflict wasn't possible for them.  Also keep in mind the "date-line" was an invention of man long after the "rest day" became a rule to observe for health reasons.  If you observe a "sabbath" for any other reason you are doing more harm then good to yourself and others.  I do realize too many don't see why the "day of rest" became a rule to observe and think taking a day of rest will do more then help preserve health, but do take the time to notice the "original" purpose of the rule.
             
            That doesn't mean the rule didn't become more later among Israelites seeking to divide the "observant" from the "gentiles".  The old testament books are full of contests to divide the keepers of the old ways from those with newer viewpoints and attitudes seeking to be more gentile.  The issue hasn't changed and is part of the reason so many talk about being "saved" from among unbelievers.  Both sides use the same phrases to condemn others for not being more like themselves to their own harm.  The purpose of the rules for life is to not make your life more complicated and troubled, but to bring peace and tranquility.  If your lifestyle doesn't bring "rest", you are stressing yourself to an early death.  The Gentile way of life is full of early death rules, or laws to obey, but they just don't get it.  They think their way of life brings a longer, better life while saying peace, peace, but cannot find any.
             
            It isn't my duty to change your way of life, but I do want to ask you to ponder if your lifestyle and ideas bring rest, or something less.  What was the original intention of the rules of life?  Hint, hint - notice the message in the phrase; rules of life.  One can also say in English; rules for life.
             
            Tsavah
             


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