Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Re Twilight

Expand Messages
  • Yehochanan Ben-YisraEl
    Shalom Carlo,   You did not address my contention directly. All you did is restate why you belief that the date changes in the morning instead of the evening.
    Message 1 of 78 , Aug 31 10:40 PM
      Shalom Carlo,
       
      You did not address my contention directly. All you did is restate why you belief that the date changes in the morning instead of the evening.
       
      The general understanding of the concept of beyn ha’arbayim is what you call dusk twilight and dawn twilight. It does not mean the period of time between noon to dusk. Again, definitions. Did you get your definitions from your own reasoning, Christian/secular sources or from the sages?
       
      Let’s take look at part of your explanations. I will point out two assumptions.
       
      The Passover Lamb had to be kept up until the 14th Day (
      CORRECT), and to be killed between the two evenings (an Hebrew expression meaning from noon to dusk) (BAD DEFINITION), and eaten at the even (Hebrew "Ereb", dusk twilight) (WRONG), and during the SAME Night (Hebrew "Layil") of the 14th
       
      This is not all happening on the same. If you notice, the transition is from yom to beyn ha’arbayim to laylah. This is not all on the same date.
       
      Pesach is killed at the end of the 14th day at beyn ha’arbayim. Beyn ha’arbayim is considered the end of the previous night-day and the beginning of the next night-day cycle. The night-day cycle represent the cycle of ignorance/darkness being overcome by revelation/light. I will explain more on that later.
       
      This issue is clarified by looking at Hag HaMatzoth in the same chapter. Let us look at the verse and see if my explanation above takes out of Torah observance. By your reckoning, you will keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread for 8 days instead of 7.
       
      Exodus 12:
      18
      In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
      Exodus 12:
      19
      Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses; for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a sojourner, or one that is born in the land.
      Hag HaMazoth is only supposed to last 7 days. This is because if you look at the same graphic, Nissan 20th AT EVEN is considered the 21st.
       
       
      DATE
      NIGHT SEASON
      DAY SEASON
       
      Nissan 14
      First day Chametz cleared from house
      Nissan 15
      *Evening following day-season of Nissan 14
      *first eating of Matzah
      Second day Chametz cleared from house
      Nissan 16
      *second eating of Matzah
      Third day Chametz cleared from house
      Nissan 17
      *third eating of Matzah
      Fourth day Chametz cleared from house
      Nissan 18
      *fourth eating of Matzah
      Fifth day Chametz cleared from house
      Nissan 19
      *fifth eating of Matzah
      Sixth day Chametz cleared from house
      Nissan 20
      *sixth eating of Matzah
      Seventh day Chametz cleared from house
      Nissan 21
      *seventh eating of Matzah--end of Hag HaMatzoth
       
       
       
      Let us inspect this verse.
       
      Mat 26:17 Now the first [day] of the [feast of] unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the Passover?
       
      What day is the author speaking about? By looking at my graphic above, it is clearly day-season on the 14th of Nissan. This is the first of Unleavened Bread that Matthew is speaking of. The Pesach is not killed until the evening which is the 15th. They ate the lamb and the Matzah that evening in accordance with Torah. For some reason, you believe it must be the same day. And--NO--the Torah does not use the SAME NIGHT. It says THIS NIGHT. There is a difference.
       
      If you patiently studied my graphic, you will notice that we do everything at the same time as you do. The DIFFERENCE is when you consider the date to change. My point is that this is clearly the understanding of the writer of the Book of Matthew. That being that the first day of unleavened bread and Pesach are on the same day. This is always the case if you follow the night-day cycle. In your case, you have will have to come up with an explanation to explain that the plain meaning of the text is not true.
       
      The only way to get around that is if you assume that the author intended to mean an Unleavened Bread season instead of the Holy Week itself which is seven days and not eight. But, when I compared this wording to the rest of the Scriptures, it is clearly means Hag HaMazoth--seven days inclusive of Pesach. Or you could assume the apostles were making an error in speech since the Messiah did not say that. Either way, it is based on assumption. So, the bottom line is that the way it is presented, it is line for line with the Torah.
       
      In your last response to me, you said,
      Actually it is NOT a matter of knowledge of Hebrew Language, but of following traditions of men, instead of what The Scriptures teach.
       
      Sorry Carlo, you cannot just invent doctrines based on your limited knowledge of Hebrew and Christian references. If you receive your wisdom by the Holy Spirit, then leave the corrected Christian dictionaries alone. They are false. I do not have the Christian Holy Spirit that teaches me all things spontaneously, so I rely on the words of the sages instead of my own opinion.
       
      Every time I challenge a Christian, they say they got it from the Holy Ghost when they cannot support their teachings. In your case, I have listened to your opinion on this matter with an open mind. I inspected each word. In fact, for over two years, I accepted the day-night cycle. But, again, it is the New Testament that shift me back to the night-day cycle. I have made charts just like I did above. I walked through it step by step. It all checks out.
       
      So, no, I am not relying on the traditions of men any more or less than you are. You do not claim to be a master of Hebrew. Therefore, unless you received some divine revelation, then you rely on dictionaries of some sort. I repeatedly see you reference Christian sources. I rely on the writings of the sages that have been keep out of the hands of the Rabbinical Jews and the Christians.
       
      So, since I got my definitions from traditions of men, where do you get your definitions--the Holy Ghost or men? If from men, what source texts? Are they Christian or secular sources? Fill me in so I can get the knowledge too.
       
      Furthermore, I would not accept the 364-day calendar if I followed the tradition of men. It is the BABYLONIANS who used the lunar calendar that you use. And, yes, they used the sighting of the crescent moon too--as did the Egyptians. This is not the mention the fact that this separates me from nearly every Messianic congregation in the US.
       
      So, no, I do not follow the traditions of men if they are proven false. But, I do follow the opinion of the sages instead of reading the Bible on my own and using reasoning to FIGURE OUT what the Scriptures mean. It seems to me that your reasoning is based on the definitions you accept as being true. So, you will definitely have to show that your definitions are correct beyond the fact that you just believe they are correct.
       
      I think the reason you believe in the day-night cycle is because of your believe in the pre-eminence of light over darkness. This is certainly supported in Scripture. However, I believe you incorrectly apply this to Creation and the calendar in general.
       
      You disagree when people say that darkness was before light. I agree. Where you are incorrect is by believing that Light is part of Creation. The Light existed BEFORE Creation. Creation began with darkness and then Light was revealed. Duality exists in the Creation but not the Creator who is only Light. Creation and darkness has a beginning whereas the Light does not.
       
      The Creation is made after the pattern of the Upper Worlds. So, we this pattern in spiritual development and in many other ways. For instance, the life of a baby start in darkness and then in born into the Light. A person starts the spiritual path in darkness and then enter the Light by means of Mashiach. The pattern of the cycle of things begin in concealment/darkness and then comes revelation/day.
       
      I believe that you disdain the night-day theory because you believe that night coming before day somehow makes the night more important. This is not true. The fact is that the night is overpowered by the day. This is why the night appears first to us. But, even this is an illusion because the night-day cycles only appears this way because of the revolution of the earth. This night-day cycle is within the Light of the sun at all times. This is in accordance with the principle that the Light precedes the night-day cycle even in our world.
       
      My point is that the Scriptures do not say that the day comes before the night. It is not there. If we review the Torah, we see that the Light existed BEFORE Creation. This is BEFORE Genesis 1:1. In fact, the Light is not created. It has always been. So, the True Light is not part of any night-day or day-night cycle. The Light spoken of in Genesis 1 is merely the revealed light of the True Light that existed before Creation. This True Light is not corporeal while the light in Genesis is. It is the revealed/corporeal light that comes after the darkness and it represented by the Day. The True Light has nothing to do with Day or Night. Both will go away. In the World to Come, there will only be the True Light of the Creator. Not the corporeal light we know as Day. It does not represent the Light of YHWH.
       
      So, again, the night-day cycle has nothing to do with paganism nor does it give importance to the night or darkness. Rather, it just shows that the pattern of things in this world is from concealment/darkness to revelation/light. There are many examples of this. I will give good example.
       
      John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
       
      Now, why would light come into the world? This is because before Yehoshua came, the world was steeped in darkness. Yes, darkness is first. THEN, the Light comes and vanquishes the darkness. This is corresponds to the dawn and rising of the sun. This ends the cycle.
       
      Here is another example.
       
      John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
       
      Note that the light comes and shines in the darkness again. If you read the whole chapter again, we see that before this time (in verse 5), the Light was not part of Creation. Then the light is revealed in Creation. So, my point is that IN Creation, we perceive darkness first, then we perceive the light.
       
      This is why the dates change at sunset. It begins a new cycle of concealment and revelation. If you say that the cycle is day-night, then you are saying that revelation (day) is first and then concealment/ignorance (darkness) follows. That does not make any sense. The Scripture is clear. Light is revelation and darkness is ignorance. Everything starts in darkness and comes to revelation by the Grace of the Creator. Therefore, the night-day cycle is definitely in line with Torah. To say that the cycle is day-night means that the pattern is revelation to ignorance.
       
      And I say once more, there is no mention of the when the dates change in the Torah. You based this on your idea of light overcoming darkness. That theory says we start in day/revelation and go to darkness/ignorance is incorrect. I disagree. This is because the Light the preceded the darkness of Genesis 1 was not part of the Creation. In you theory, you ADD it to the Creation. No, in the beginning, the light was concealed. This is why Creation began in darkness. Then, the light was revealed. It says the same thing in John 1.
       
      So, this is why I went back to the night-day cycle. As you see above, it is not based on the tradition of men. It based on the clear words of the Messiah concerning the relationship between light and darkness. The light is concealed and darkness reigns first. Then the light is revealed and darkness is destroyed. This is what the night-day cycle represents and this is in line with Torah and the Teachings of Yehoshua.
       
      You do not have to respond to this post. I know you are engaged in another debate. I am just giving you my response to you last post and where I got my information.
       
      Shalom,
      Yehochanan
       


      --- On Sun, 8/31/08, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
      From: BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...>
      Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Re Twilight
      To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 2:10 AM

      Shalom Yehochanan!
       
      I really wonder why you said that none of the Books say that The Passover is killed on the 14th of Avib. Am I missing something?
       
      Exodus 12:6 -
      And you shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the community of Yisrael shall kill it between the two evenings..
       
      Leviticus 23:5 -
      In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is YHWH (Yahweh)'s Passover.
       
      Yahshua (Joshua) 5:10 -
      And the children of Yisrael encamped in Gilgal, and kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Yericho.
       
      The Passover Lamb had to be kept up until the 14th Day, and to be killed between the two evenings (an Hebrew expression meaning from noon to dusk), and eaten at the even (Hebrew "Ereb", dusk twilight), and during the SAME Night (Hebrew "Layil") of the 14th, and nothing of it left until dawn (Hebrew "Boker"), and if something of it was left until dawn, to be burned with fire, since the next dawn (Hebrew "Boker") was the beginning of the 15th Day, that is, The Feast of Unleavened (Bread), The First Annual Sabbath.
       
      About the various Hebrew groups, and people that you have mentioned, since they followed the tradition of "sunset to sunset day", taken back from the Babylonian Captivity, it is not marvel what they said, and wrote.
       
      Actually it is NOT a matter of knowledge of Hebrew Language, but of following traditions of men, instead of what The Scriptures teach.
       
      YHWSU (Yahshua) said just that about the Scribes and Pharisees, that certainly were experts in Hebrew Language, and in knowlledge of YHWH (Yahweh)'s Torah (Law), but followed traditions of men, having left YHWH (Yahweh)'s Commandments.
       
      About the Calendar Issue, as a matter of fact, The Set Apart Days (Feasts) of YHWH (Yahweh) are set on Days of the Months.
       
      Are Lunar Months or Solar Months? They cannot be BOTH.
       
      You are saying that the Solar Months are counted to set the Set Apart Days (Feasts) of YHWH (Yahweh), and, instead, the Lunar months are counted for time keeping.
       
      I really wonder what would be the difference between the two? Are not The Set Apart Days (Feasts) of YHWH (Yahweh) TIME KEEPING?
       
      May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
       
      In The Name of HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
       
      Carlo Tognoni
       
      BYT YHWH
      The Community of Yahweh of The Disciples of Yahshua
       
      ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
       
       
       

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael <yehochanan@yahoo. com>
      To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
      Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 11:23:27 PM
      Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re: Re Twilight

      Shalom Carlo,
      As an example to support your belief that the Torah is based on a day-night cycle, you said, For example, the 14th Day of Avib, when YHWH (Yahweh) instructed to prepare for The Passover, and to take off all leaven from the properties, beginning to eat unleavened from the EVEN (DUSK TWILIGHT), was FOLLOWED by the 14th Night of Avib, when YHWH (Yahweh) instructed to eat The Passover IN THAT SAME NIGHT (the 14th Night of Avib, and NOT the 15th Night of Avib!), and NOT in the NEXT Night, if the Night would begin a NEW "Day" and date (Exodus Chapter 12).
      It appears that your opinion is based on the fact that when the Creator says this night--b'laylah hazeh--then it must be the same date. That is an assumption. To prove it, you would have to show that the Scriptures say that the Pesach is killed on the 14th of Nissan. But, we know that none of the books say this. So, this is merely your logical conclusion. Without that assumption, it can go either way.
      When I am in doubt on such matters, I look at how the various Hebrew groups interpreted this subject. Every Hebrew group and sage I have ever heard since antiquity has always interpreted the evening is when the date changes. We can look in the Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus, Philo, Rabbinical and Karaite Jews, Essenes, Ebionite and many others. And I am quite sure they knew Hebrew better than you and I. This is why private interpretation of the Scripture is forbidden.
      So, I do not disagree with your words. My point is that that Torah nor the Prophets explicitly state the Pesach is killed on 14th. It is merely your assumption that that the date changing in the morning and the evening. This does not mean that you assumption is incorrect. However, it is an assumption that has yet to be proven to me since it is explicitly stated in the Scriptures.
      Oh…and I do not use the new moon for Holy Days. I am not restricted to the Protestant Canon. I accept the Astronomical Book of Enoch as did the first century believers in Yehoshua. In this book, we see that BOTH the 364-day calendar and the lunar calendar were used. The lunar months were used for time keeping while the 364-day calendar was used for Holy Days. Several Jewish communities did it this way--both believers and non-believers in Yehoshua. The Ethiopian Church is proven to be in continuous existence since the time of Paul. They still use the 364-day calendar. So, it is not a matter of one being right and the other wrong. The issue is application.
      What finally sold me on the 364-day calendar is that by using this calendar, Yehoshua is born on Yom Teruah--the Day of Shouting and he is conceived during Chanukah. Using the Lunar calendar, the conception and birth day do not land on auspicious days. He ends up being born some time in the month of Av. So, Yehoshua birth is directly inline with the 364-day calendar. This fact is what sold me. That cannot just be a neat coincidence.
      So, unless I see clearly in the Torah that it says that the Pesach is killed on the 14th, I will stay with my opinion with a clean conscience that I am accepting what is written according the best of my understanding with the support of the prophets and sages who came before me.
      Shalom,
      Yehochanan

      --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
      >
      > Shalom Yehochanan!
      >  
      > Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and opinions on this Scriptural Issue.
      >  
      > Unfortunately I see that you still believe in a Night-DAY cycle, instead of a DAY-Night cycle (even if you have come to rightly believe in the Scriptural Sabbath DAY, during 12 Hours of Light), and also you still believe in the First Visible Crescent or Sliver as New Moon, instead of Conjuction.
      >  
      > About the date change, that is at the beginning of the NEW Day (Light Time), at Dawn Twilight (or at Sunrise, according to your belief), and NOT at Dusk Twilight (or at Sunset, according to your belief), when the Day (Light Time) ends, and the Night (Darkness Time) begins.
      >  
      > The previous Night (Darkness) goes with the previous Day (Light Time), as to numbers of the Day of the Month.
      >  
      > For example, the 14th Day of Avib, when YHWH (Yahweh) instructed to prepare for The Passover, and to take off all leaven from the properties, beginning to eat unleavened from the EVEN (DUSK TWILIGHT), was FOLLOWED by the 14th Night of Avib, when YHWH (Yahweh) instructed to eat The Passover IN THAT SAME NIGHT (the 14th Night of Avib, and NOT the 15th Night of Avib!), and NOT in the NEXT Night, if the Night would begin a NEW "Day" and date (Exodus Chapter 12).
      >  
      > About Nehemyah 13:19, your explanation to be a time of early "morning", instead of "evening", could be interesting, considering that the gates of Yerusalem were already shut during the Nights.
      >
      > Nehemyah 7:3 -
      >  3 And I said unto them, Let not the gates of Yerusalem be opened until the sun be hot; and while they stand by, let them shut the doors, and bar them: and appoint watches of the inhabitants of Yerusalem, every one in his watch, and every one to be over against his house.
      >
      > The difference, with Nehemyah's edict, was that the gates of Yerusalem remained closed ALSO during The Sabbath Day, until after the Sabbath..
      >
      > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
      >  
      > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
      >  
      > Carlo Tognoni
      >  
      > BYT YHWH
      > The Community of Yahweh of The Disciples of Yahshua
      > www.byt-yhwh. org
      >
      > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: Yehochanan Ben-YisraEl yehochanan@. ..
      > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
      > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 11:21:23 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re Twilight
      >
      >
      > Shalom Carlo,
      >  
      > I was been reading the previous post by you and other. They are all very good. Arnold seemed to shred some light for me on your position with his verses. So, based on what I have ascertained so far, this is by opinion.
      >  
      > It seems logical to me that the DAY begins when the sun appears over the horizon. This follows the same pattern of the determining of the months where we sight the crescent.
      >  
      > However, the reference to John 20:1 is a pretty strong argument in your favor. As you know, I checked the Aramaic Peshitta and my handy literal Hebrew translation of it. They clearly state that it was ONthe first day of the week ANDit was still dark. I checked several English translations, everyone translate it the same. There is no question of it being mistranslated except for the fact that the word day does not appear in the text. It should say the first of the week at boqer.
      >  
      > Therefore, if one believes the DAY begins at boqer,then there is no way around your position. It can still be dark on the first day of the week.
      >  THE ONLY WAY AROUND YOUR POSITION,
      >  
      > I am interesting to see how Br. Paul is able to get around your position given that he seems agree with the daily unit being day-night. If the daily unit is day-night, then you are correct. No way around it.
      >  
      > While I am at it, I did want to correct you on one point. Keep in mind, even though I hold to the night-day daily cycle, I still believe that that Sabbath day is only during the day-season. But, I want to bring to your attention a verse you quoted that is grossly mistranslated and leads people to believe that that the Sabbath begins in the evening.
      > This is the verse you posted.
      >  Nehemyah 13:19And it came to pass, that when the , I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the Sabbath: and some of my servants I set at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the Sabbath Day.gates of Yerusalem began to be darkbefore the Sabbath
      >  
      > Note what I highlighted. How can GATES begin to be dark? That does not make any sense. But, when people read that verse, the assume it means that the day-season began to get dark. This is incorrect.
      >  
      > Check out the Rotherham translation of the same verse.Nehemiah 13:19And it came to pass, when the gates of Jerusalem made a shadow before the sabbath, then gave I word, and they shut the doors, and I gave word, that they should not open them, until after the sabbath,––and, some of my young men, set I near the gates, so that no burden should be brought in, on the sabbath day..- is it one believes that that the dates are changed at the evening, then that cause problems. I am sure you have seen it proven that the three days and three nights that Yeshua spent in the tomb explained with that theory as well. Using that theory, it would mean that it was still the first night-season of the week and the first day season was dawning. This is inline with Greek and Aramaic since neither include the word, day, in the text.
      >  
      > The time when the gates begin to make shadows is in the morning, not the evening. At night, there are no shadows. The shadows begin to appear in the morning.
      >  
      > The verb in question here is llc (tzalal). It means to give a shadow, overshadow. It can also mean tosink or tremble/vibrate. The context gives the meaning. So, the gates either shrank, vibrated or gave a shadow. The choice here is obvious. Unfortunately, the Strong's Concordance always sticks with the King James Version. So, if a person looked the word up with that source, they will see that one of the definitions is to be dark.But, the definitions I gave above are from actual Hebrew dictionaries not connected with Protestant churchianity. Not one authentic Hebrew dictionary says to grow dark.
      >  
      > The literal word for shadow in Hebrew is--not surprisingly- -loc--tzal. We see the clear connection it has to the verb in question. As we know, this is always the case in Hebrew.
      >  
      > So, again, the time in question is the morning since this is the time when shadows appear, not the evening.
      >  
      > So, you can check that out for yourself and then use it in the future to prove that the Sabbath day is only during the day-season. Not only can Nehemiah 13:19 no long be used to prove the Sabbath given in the evening, but it actually proves that it begins in the morning. Properly, the verse they used to the most to prove that theory is not the very one the disproves it.
      >  
      > Shalom,
      > Yehochanan
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >
      > --- On Fri, 8/29/08, BYT YHWH bytyhwh@yahoo. com> wrote:
      >
      > From: BYT YHWH bytyhwh@yahoo. com>
      > Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re Twilight
      > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
      > Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 9:32 PM
      >
      >
      > Shalom again Dear Br. Paul!
      >
      > It seems that you consider Dawn to be at Sunrise, while Dawn occurs almost one hour BEFORE Sunrise, just as Dark occurs almost one hour AFTER Sunset, at Yerusalem time and parallel.
      >
      > There are two time periods, Dawn Twilight (from Dawn to Sunrise), and Dusk Twilight (from Sunset to Dark), that last almost one hour each, that you consider to be NOT part of the Day (Light Time), but to be part of the Night (Darkness Time), claiming that Day (Light) canNOT include any Darkness at all..
      >
      > People who use and believe Dawn and Dark to be beginning and end of the Day (Light Time) claim that Night (Darkness) canNOT include any Light at all.
      >
      > Who is right? Who is wrong?
      >
      > You seem assuming that the 12 Hours of Light are of 60 minutes each, and that is NOT the case, since Day (Light Time) duration differs from Season to Season.
      >
      > If you use Sunrise and Sunset to establish the Day (Light Time) duration, you will go from 10 hours of 60 minutes in Winter time (from 7 a.m. to 5 p.m.), to 14 hours of 60 minutes in Summer time (from 5 a.m. to 7 p.m.).
      >
      > Then, it is NOT a matter of duration, because the 12 Hours are Scriptural Hours, that vary from Season to Season, and NOT conventional hours of 60 minutes each.
      >
      > You said that by using Sunrise and Sunset, you can be sure when the Day (Light Time) begins, and ends.
      >
      > Not really, since in all the cloudy Days, you would be NOT able to see Sunrise NOR Sunset.
      >
      > People who use Dawn and Dark, as beginning and end of the Day (Light Time), would say that they are sure too when the Day (Light Time) begins, and ends, because, when it is totally Dark, it is NOT Day Time, but it is Night Time.
      >
      > Lets read the Four "Gospels" Records of when the women went to YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sepulchre.
      >
      > Mattithyah (Matthew) 28:1 -
      > In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
      >
      > Yahchanan (John) Mark 16:2 -
      > And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
      >
      > Luke 24:1 -
      > Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
      >
      > Yahchanan (John 20:1) -
      > The first day of the week Myriam Magdalene came early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and saw the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
      >
      > As you can see above, the very early time when the Day (Light Time) begins, it is when it is yet dark, when it begins to dawn, at the rising of the Sun.
      >
      > It seems clearly enough that the Sun is NOT completely Risen over the Horizion, but it is BEFORE that time period when the Day (Light Time) begins.
      >
      > Then, I believe that is safer to say that the Day (Light Time) begins at Dawn Twilight (from Dawn to Sunrise).
      >
      > And the SAME thing is for Dusk Twilight (from Sunset to Dark).
      >
      > Lets read when the Day (Light Time) ends.
      >
      > Nehemyah 13:19 -
      > And it came to pass, that when the gates of Yerusalem began to be dark before the Sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the Sabbath: and some of my servants I set at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the Sabbath Day.
      >
      > It is clear enough that Nehemyah would NOT command that BEFORE the end of the Day (Light Time), that still was a time to work, toward the end of the Sixth Day.
      >
      > And surely the gates began to be dark AFTER Sunset, and BEFORE Dark, at Dusk Twilight (Hebrew "Ereb").
      >
      > It seems clearly enough that the Sun has already Set below the Horizion, when the Day (Light Time) ends.
      >
      > Then, I believe that is safer to say that the Day (Light Time) ends at Dusk Twilight (from Sunset to Dark).
      >
      > If it would be a matter of Salvation to know it PRECISELY, YHWH (Yahweh) would have PRECISELY indicated when to begin, and when to end the Day (Light Time).
      >  
      > Instead, in The Beginning (Genesis Chapter 1), YHWH (Yahweh) divided / separated Light (Calling It DAY) from Darkness (calling It NIGHT), indicating two time periods of separation / division between Light (DAY) and Darkness (NIGHT), that is, "Boker" (Dawn Twilight, from Dawn to Sunrise), and "Ereb" (Dusk Twilight, from Sunset to Dark), as beginning and end of the DAY (Light Time), and NOT as beginning and end of the Night (Darkness Time).
      >  
      > So that beginning and end of the DAY (Light Time) are NOT instants in the time, but time periods of division / separation, lasting almost one hour each, from Dawn to Sunrise (the beginning of the DAY / Light Time), and from Sunset to Dark (the end of the DAY / Light Time), in which there is a mixture of Light and Darkness.
      >  
      > Does that mixture of Light and Darkness - at Dawn Twilight, and at Dusk Twlight - belong to the Day (Light), or to the Night (Darkness)?
      >  
      > You believe that they belong to the Night (Darkness), other people say that they belong to the Day (Light).
      >  
      > My position is "average", giving Dawn Twilight, and Dusk Twlight as time periods of separation / division at the Beginning, and at the End of the DAY (Light Time), after which the Night (Darkness) comes, as so on.
      >  
      > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
      >  
      > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
      >  
      > Carlo Tognoni
      >  
      > BYT YHWH
      > The Community of Yahweh of The Disciples of Yahshua
      > www.byt-yhwh. org
      >
      > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: PWC pwc17@yahoo. com>
      > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
      > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:14:08 PM
      > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re Twilight
      >
      >
      > Shalom Dear Br. Carlo,
      >  
      > Yes, indeed, we have had our differences on the subject of whether Twilight - Dawn or Dusk - is actually part of DAY. After having failed to demonstrate to you in other words that Twilight is NOT part of DAY; I will direct you to Isaiah 38 which gives the account of Hezekiah receiving a sign from Yahuah. That sign was seeing the shadow of the Sun retreat 10 degrees or 10 steps backward on what is known as the Sundial of Ahaz. This in all probablity was a circular stairway in eyesight of Hezekiah that he could see as he was recuperating from his illness. Any source you choose to search the history of the Sundial of Ahaz will tell you that the Sundial measured the 12 HOURS OF DAYLIGHT - regardless of any opinions as to exactly how it was built. Sundials CANNOT and DO NOT calculate time in Twilight because there is no shadow from the Sun to tell time from. If you cannot measure the hours of Twilight from the Sun, they DO NOT belong to DAY.
      >  
      > So, I still maintain that Twilight - Dawn or Dusk - IS NOT part of DAY, but is part of Night. Maintaining that DAY begins and ends in Twilight causes one to have to speculate or guess exactly when DAY begins and ends. By observing when the Sun has completely RISEN above the horizon at DAWN and has completely SET below the horizon at EVEN are actions that be can be observed with certainty, without any speculation or guessing.
      >  
      > YashaNa.
      > In Brotherly love of our Messiah Yahusha,
      > Br. Paul
      >
      > --- On Thu, 8/28/08, BYT YHWH bytyhwh@yahoo. com> wrote:
      >  
      > Shalom Dear Br. Paul!
      >  
      > As we have already discussed it in the past, I have shown that:
      >  
      > -  the Hebrew "Boker" is the beginning of the Day (Light Time), and "Boker" means Dawn, the time when Light starts to come, AFTER the Night, and BEFORE the Sunrise, and the Sun is NOT visible over the Horizon yet, and NOT Sunrise, when the Sun is visible over the Horizon.
      >  
      > I use the definition "Dawn Twilight", that is the time period between Dawn and Sunrise, as the Beginning of the Day (Light Time), and the division time between Night (Darkness) and Day (Light).
      >  
      > - the Hebrew "Ereb" is the end of the Day (Light Time), and "Ereb" means Dusk, the time when Light starts to disappear, AFTER Sunset, and NOT Sunset, when the Sun is going down below the Horizon.
      >  
      > I use the definition "Dusk Twilight", that is the time period between Sunset and Dark, as the End of the Day (Light Time), and the division time between Day (Light) and Night (Darkness).
      >  
      > But I understand that some people believe and use Dawn and Dark, as beginning and end of the Day (Light Time), to mean that any whatsoever Light belong to the Day (Light), and NOT to the Night (Darkness).
      >  
      > And some other people, just as you do, believe and use Sunrise and Sunset, as beginning and end of the Day (Light Time), to mean that only when the Sun is visible in the Sky, it rules the Day (Light), and it is Day Time.
      >  
      > Since both such positions have Scriptural pros and cons, I have taken an "average" position, believing and using Dawn Twilight (Dawn to Sunrise) and Dusk Twilight (Sunset to Dark), as beginning and end of the Day (Light Time), to mean that they are the two Daily divisions between Day (Light) and Night (Darkness), as repeadly indicated in Genesis Chapter 1, "and Dusk Twilight (Hebrew "Ereb") came to be, and Dawn Twilight (Hebrew "Boker") came to be, Day (Light) One... Two... Three... Four... Five... Six..." (Verses 5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31).
      >  
      > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
      >  
      > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
      >  
      > Carlo Tognoni
      >  
      > BYT YHWH
      > The Community of Yahweh of The Disciples of Yahshua
      >

    • David Hakahan
      Shabbat Shalom Rick and All;   Rick, I agree with you that Noah had a way of determining the number of months. How he did it is another story that none of us
      Message 78 of 78 , Oct 4, 2008
        Shabbat Shalom Rick and All;
         
        Rick, I agree with you that Noah had a way of determining the number of months. How he did it is another story that none of us today can say with 100% certainity.
         
        It is my opinion that there are seven days in the week. It is my opinion that there are four weeks in a month. It is my opinion that there are thirteen months in a year. It is my opinion that there are 364 days in a year.
         
        With these opinions comes some challenges.
         
        I cannot find one instance in the whole set of books that make up the Bible where the 28th, 29th, 30th or 31st day is mentioned. The last date referenced is the 27th.
         
        I cannot find one reference in the Old Testament where a 13th month is mentioned.
         
        If there are only 28 days in a month, how do I reconcile the 150 days and the 5 months of the flood.
         
         
        These are only a few of my challenges.
         
         
        It is my opinion that I have these challenges because the Bible is an incomplete book - meaning that the stories are incomplete.
         
        Was it always like this? I do not know.
         
         
        This post is not meant to solicit responses.
         
        (Any response will only be an opinion or interpretation, and as I have said before - my opinion/intepretation is not necessarily more correct than another persons, and vice versa.)
         
        Thanks for taking the time to read my "ramblings".
         
        Shabbat Shalom
        David Hakahan

        --- On Wed, 9/24/08, Rick <rickbgp38@...> wrote:
        From: Rick <rickbgp38@...>
        Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Re Twilight
        To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 4:43 AM

        Shalom David,

        Based on what is written, Gen 7:11 "...in the second month, on the
        seventeenth day...", Gen 7:4 "...in the seventh month...", Gen
        7:13 "six hindred and first year, in the first month..." For Noah to
        state the months, I would have to say Noah knew of a monthly
        calendar. Since this was pre-history, it then had to be a simple
        calendar that could be rekoned by what YHVH already provided.

        shalom,
        rick

        --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, David Hakahan
        <dhakahan@.. .> wrote:
        >
        > Shalom Rick, a quick question for you:
        >  
        > Assuming this is correct; How did Noah determine the number of days
        of the flood?
        >  
        > Shalom
        >
        > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Rick <rickbgp38@. ..> wrote:
        >
        > From: Rick <rickbgp38@. ..>
        > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re: Re Twilight
        > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
        > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:02 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Shalom Carlo!
        >
        > Thanks and I'd be happy to share. But first I just want to say that
        > I'm not claiming to be right, though I may disagree with others.
        I'm
        > just going on information revealed to me that has take a little
        while
        > to put together. If something can be proven so that I have to
        change,
        > great - then we all learned something. And so I thank you for
        > showting that same consideration before disagreeing or informing me
        > I'm wrong. Since I'm not sure of the levels of studies people have
        > done, if I write as if hold one by the hand please do not take it
        > personal. I'm just trying to make clarification. I don't always get
        a
        > chance each day, like weekends, to look and answer posts, so I ask
        > for patience.
        >
        > One of the first things I should explain is that the lunar calendar
        I
        > abide by is different than other lunar calendars. For one, YHWH's
        > Shabbat doesn't always land on the Roman Saturday. This small clue
        in
        > it's self had opened up a very large database of knowledge from
        > scripture. The end product was this - the modern Gregorian calendar
        > the world lives by is actually two calendar systems, a monthly and
        a
        > weekly. If one looks, at the begining of each month the cycle is
        > restarted with day one, but the weekly cycle of 7 days doesn't on
        > purpose but by the occational accident. Thus each begining of the
        > month, while it does start on day one, actually changes to
        different
        > days of the week. When we look at the Jewish calendar, we see the
        > very same conditions. Because of locking in the 7 day cycle to the
        > Roman week, never does the Rosh Chodesh purposely land on the first
        > day of the month and in turn the rabbis must "tweak" the Jewish
        > calendar so that Holy days like Yom Kippur must not land on the
        > weekly Saturday Sabbath. Once this was understood, I threw out the
        > weekly Roman calendar so that study of the lunar calendar wouldn't
        be
        > handicapped by it. Without another weekly calendar, it allowed the
        > lunar calendar to be self correcting, meaning that when Rosh
        Chodesh
        > occured, not only was it the first Day of the month, it was the
        First
        > Day of the month. At this point, it becomes simplicity itself by
        > counting the days. The first day of the month was also the first
        day
        > of the week. The seventh day of the month was also the weekly
        > Sabbath. Then things took their normal course - the eighth day of
        the
        > month became the first day of the Second week, and so on. At this
        > point the Sabbaths then occur on the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th days
        of
        > the month and it made the 1st, 8th, 15th and 22nd days the first
        days
        > of the first, second, third and fourth weeks respectively.
        >
        > Once these were established I found it fascinating how YHWH had put
        > together a simple calendar that never made any contradtictions. For
        > example - in keeping to this cycle, Sabbath would be on the 14th
        day
        > of every month, even Nisan, and it would never land on the same day
        > as Pesach, the 15th. it also straightens out Tishrei - Sabbath
        > occuring on the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th, and never crossing paths
        > with Yom Teruah - the 1st, Yom Kippur - the 10th, and Sukkot - 15th
        > thru the 22nd. The first and last days of Sukkot are holy
        > convocations (Lev 23:35-36) so they don't interfere with the weekly
        > Sabbath.
        >
        > But a fascinating discovery was found due to this pattern of the
        > lunar cycle - the mystery of the High Sabbath was solved (John
        > 19:31). As we know from Lev 23, the Feast of Unleaven Bread is from
        > the 15th day and lasts seven days. When we count the days, the 15th
        > is the first day of Unleaven Bread, the 16th the second, 17th the
        > third, 18th the fourth, 19th the fifth, the 20th the sixth. Thus we
        > come to the last day of Unleaven Bread, the seventh day, it lands
        on
        > the 21st day of the month. Allowing the Rosh Chodesh to establish
        the
        > beinging of the week, Sabbaths land on the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th
        > days of the month. Here we have the "high day", aka the High
        Sabbath -
        > because the 21st day is not only the weekly Sabbath, but also the
        > 7th day of Unleaven Bread. This is the only time of year when it
        > happens, having two holy festival days on the same physical day.
        Thus
        > it becomes the High Sabbath. No other calendar system I found can
        do
        > this, not even other lunar calendars. Why? because they all lock
        down
        > the Jewish sabbath to the Roman Saturday. By releasing the Sabbath
        > and allowing the moon to determine when to start counting, the rest
        > of the calendar falls into place.
        >
        > Two things occur from this. First, by the comment in John 19:31
        about
        > the high day, we can finally find it and prove it's existance.
        > Second, it also uncovers an easy and ancient way of vadliating
        > Sabbath without a written calendar, the phases of the moon.
        > By starting the week by the Rosh Chodesh, the Sabbaths land on the
        > 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th days. When doing a physical observation of
        > the moon, I found it amazing that, like clockwork for the past four
        > years, the major phases of the moon happen either on Shabbat or
        erev
        > Shabbat.
        >
        > What I lack in words, I would hope the tracking of the calendar
        would
        > speak for itself. As a personal intrest in keeping Torah, I have
        also
        > kept track of the months and Sabbaths on msWord. If anyone is
        > interested I'd be happy to send a copy of the monthly calendar. I
        > have a couple of friends who are interested and I email them each
        > Rosh Chodesh after verification of the first cresent.
        >
        > To tell the truth, I don't expect anyone to believe me. At first I
        > didn't either. This is mainly because while I can write as many
        > papers as I want, writing wont convience anyone. What actually
        > conviences people is actual observation of the moon and her cycle
        for
        > a month or two. I can provide calendars to help find the cycles
        > faster, but I feel each person needs to observe for themselves how
        > YHWH controls the orbit of the moon to find His calendar. But in
        > order to do so, there is one condition - one must free themself
        from
        > the confines of the Roman week, Sunday thru Saturday weekly
        calendar.
        > Though it is a valid 7 day cycle, its not the cycle established by
        > the moon and her orbit.
        >
        > In all it was simpicity that convienced me. Since YHVH always
        stated
        > which holy day was on which day, all I could ask was why not the
        > Sabbath also? Why would the Sabbath tend to a different weekly
        > calendar that isn't controled by the moon? And why have to "tweak"
        > the calendar to prevent two holy days from landing on each other?
        It
        > does make for an awkward situation when Passover lands on a
        Saturday.
        > Does one abide by Sabbath rules not to cook, in turn breaking
        > Passover rule to cook the lamb, or abibe by Passover and break
        > Sabbath rule by cooking. The beauty of the lunar calendar is that
        > these two never meet, neither do any others except High Sabbath and
        > YHVH made that to do so.
        >
        > Thank you for reading, I'll be more than happy to explain my text
        or
        > answer questions to the best of my ability. I ask patience for I
        may
        > not be able to reply quickly, especially weekends (limited computer
        > time). Since I don't like being told I'm wrong, I try very hard not
        > to do so to others. So while I wont say someone else is wrong, I
        will
        > continue to believe in what I have found to be correct. Unless its
        > ancient scholars like Hillel II who I know are wrong, lol.
        According
        > to the moon, Sabbat was on Monday, so I hope everyone had a
        wonderful
        > Shabbat!
        >
        > Shalom,
        > rick
        >
        > --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH
        > <bytyhwh@ > wrote:
        > >
        > > Shalom Rick!
        > >  
        > > In one of your replies to Yehochanan, you have written:
        > >  
        > > "I'm not trying to cause trouble or anything, just curious as to
        > how you came to your conclusion. I find it interesting how many
        > people try to fit in the "three days and three nights" without
        > realizing that he died a full week after Pesach. I also noticed how
        > many become confused because the wording appears to make Pesach a
        > full day before the First Day of Unleavened Bread when, according
        to
        > Torah, Pesach is always on the same day and the First Day of
        > Unleavened Bread".
        > >  
        > > Can you, please, kindly show us how you came to your conclusions,
        > that I have put in evidence here above, that is, "he died a full
        week
        > after Pesach", and "according to Torah, Pesach is always on the
        same
        > day and the First Day of Unleavened Bread"?
        > >  
        > > Thank you very much!
        > >  
        > > May YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE
        TRUTH!
        > >  
        > > In The Name of YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
        > >  
        > > Carlo Tognoni,
        > > Groups owner and moderator
        > >  
        > > BYT YHWH
        > > The Community of Yahweh of The Disciples of Yahshua
        > > www.byt-yhwh. org
        > >  
        > > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message ----
        > > From: Rick <rickbgp38@ ..>
        > > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
        > > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 1:07:43 AM
        > > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re: Re Twilight
        > >
        > >
        > > Shalom Yehochanan,
        > > I guess where I'm having trouble is in finding where you stated
        your
        > > proof. I've been looking at the older posts, maybe I'm missing
        it. I
        > > can agree that the Pharisees held to tradition and custom, for at
        > > that time we know they wrote the Mishnah and made the population
        > obey
        > > it, and in doing so they had forsaken the commandments from the
        > > Torah. This I don't have a problem with, but I find it difficult
        to
        > > use as a basis as to when anyone observed Pesach. I'm not trying
        to
        > > cause trouble or anything, just curious as to how you came to your
        > > conclusion. I find it interesting how many people try to fit in
        > > the "three days and three nights" without realizing that he died a
        > > full week after Pesach. I also noticed how many become confused
        > > because the wording appears to make Pesach a full day before the
        > > First Day of Unleavened Bread when, according to Torah, Pesach is
        > > always on the same day and the First Day of Unleavened Bread.
        > >
        > > If you could put a pointer or the post number where your
        information
        > > is, I'd like to read it.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > rick
        > >
        > > PS- I chopped the bottom of the post, goodness it gets very long!
        > > I'll go back and read it again, its on a couple of posts, lol.
        > >
        > > --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, Yehochanan
        Ben-
        > > YisraEl <yehochanan@ ...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Shalom Bro. Rick,
        > > >
        > > > You said, If Yeshua did keep Pesach a day before everyone else -
        > > that would mean he broke Torah, for the commandment says in the
        > > evening between the 14th and 15th day of Nisan. I think I would
        have
        > > .......
        >


      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.