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Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] When Does The Weekly Sabbath Begin and End?

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  • John Cordaro
    Greetings Br. Paul, Thanks for the excerpt, but I found it faulty. ... This is one Rabbi s commentary. We can just as easily say, it was evening means
    Message 1 of 96 , Jan 29, 2005
      Greetings Br. Paul,

      Thanks for the excerpt, but I found it faulty.

      > The very description of the extent of the day in the biblical account
      > of creation as given in Gen 1:5 presupposes such a system of reckoning
      > the day, for it says: "And it was evening and it was morning, one > day."
      > This passage was misunderstood by the Talmud, though significantly
      > enough when the Tosefta cites in proof Esther 4:16 where the order
      > occurs, but does not cite the passage in Genesis or was reinterpreted
      > to suit the later practice of a different system.
      > But it was correctly interpreted by R. Samuel b. Meir (1100-1160) when
      > [Emphasis added]

      This is one Rabbi's commentary. We can just as easily say, "it was
      evening" means evening began and, "it was morning" means morning began
      until one full day was completed. One thing is certain, whether we use
      this Rabbi's view or the majority Rabbinic view, both the evening and
      the morning comprise one day, not just the daylight portion.

      > To mention but a few such indications; when prescribing that a
      > Thanksgiving offering must be consumed on the very same day on which!
      > the sacrifice is slaughtered, the Law states "on the same day it shall
      > be eaten, ye shall leave none of it till the morning" [see footnote 52
      > below] which directly indicates that the day comes to an end on the
      > next morning.[see footnote 53 below] AND WHEN IN SPECIAL, AS, i.e., IN
      > EVEN SHALL YOU KEEP YOUR SABBATH." [see footnote 54 below] [Emphasis
      > added]
      > [52] Lev. 22.30; see also Lev. 7.15. 

      This cannot be a "stricter" fast simply because the previous night is
      included unless the following night is also included. In other words,
      to fast 2 nights and one day is a stricter fast, but to fast 1 night
      and 1 day is the same fast as fasting 1 day and 1 night. If it were
      true that days begin and end at sunrise, then all Lev.23:32 is saying
      is, "keep your Sabbath starting at night rather than starting at
      daylight." Why would such a flip flop be necessary? It's totally
      illogical to make such a change. Not to mention, equally as important
      as afflicting our souls is doing no work at all. Such a flip flop could
      confuse Israel causing some to mistakenly work and thus, be destroyed.

      As for Lev.22:30 & Lev.7:15, they do not directly indicate that the day
      comes to an end on the next morning as this author assumes. It simply
      indicates that Yahweh said not to leave any until morning. Why He said
      that is not made known to us. We can assume He was teaching us that
      days begin and end in the morning and then build doctrines on that, but
      it is best that we don't read into Scripture what we want.

      > [53] For further proofs see Morgenstern, loc, cit., to which I will
      > add one point from the Passover legislation in Ex.12 which is not
      > pointed out there. The law in Exodus 12 prescribes that the Paschal
      > lamb be slaughtered on the fourteenth day of the month and eaten at
      > the following night and that nothing be left till the next morning
      > (verses 6-10).
      > And we are told that on the very same day, i.e., the fourteenth of the
      > month God brought out the ch! ildren of Israel from the land of Egypt
      > (ibid., verse 51). And in verse 42 of the same chapter we read as
      > follows: "It is a night of watching unto the Lord for bringing them
      > out of Egypt."
      > Now then, if they came out at night that is, in the night following
      > the fourteenth day, and it is said on the very same day, that is on
      > the fourteenth day, they were brought out, it clearly indicates that
      > the night following the fourteenth day is still part of that day. 

      We are NOT told they came out of Egypt on the 14th as this note says
      twice. Ex.12:17 says, "And you shall observe the feast of unleavened
      bread; for in this selfsame day I brought your armies out of the land
      of Egypt; therefore shall you observe this day in your generations by
      an ordinance forever." The feast of unleavened begins on Abib 15. It is
      on Abib 15 that they came out. On the night of the 15th (which precedes
      the daylight of the 15th) they were delivered and came out (Deut.16:1).

      > [54] The Rabbis of the Talmud who nowhere allude to and probably no
      > longer knew of the earlier mode of reckoning the day felt the
      > difficulty in the phrase: "Ye shall afflict your souls on the ninth
      > day," and when commenting on it they say: "But are we to fast o! n the
      > ninth day?" (Yoma 81b, R.H. 9a,b). A very sound objection indeed. For
      > if the day had in Bible times been reckoned from evening to evening,
      > as it was in talmudic times, then the phrase: "In the ninth day of the
      > month at evening" contains a contradiction in terms, for the evening
      > is already part of the tenth day. Besides the special injunction "from
      > even unto even shall ye keep your Sabbath" would be entirely
      > superfluous, for any other day also extends from evening to evening.

      Actually, this is a very unsound objection. Lev.23:32 does NOT say to
      afflict our souls "on the ninth day". It says, "on the ninth day of the
      month AT EVEN." The addition of "at even" signifies "at the end of the
      day when the next day begins". Consider Ex.12:18; "In the first month,
      on the 14th day of the month AT EVEN, you shall eat unleavened bread
      until the 21st day of the month AT EVEN." We begin eating unleavened
      when the sun sets beginning Abib 15. We continue until the end of Abib
      21. When Abib 22 begins at sundown, we can eat leaven again. (By the
      way, I personally wait until three stars appear to end the day and I
      begin it before sunset so as not to infringe upon either end of it).

      Lev.16:29; 23:27 & Num.29:7 all agree that we are to afflict our souls
      on the 10th day, not the 9th. All these verses prove the 10th day
      begins at the end of the daylight of the ninth.

      If the 9th ends at sundown, then where is its night? If the 11th ends
      at sunrise beginning the 12th, then to what day does the night
      following Atonement belong? (I know your answer Carlos. I am asking

      > [59] According to the Talmud (p.Ned.8.1[40d]) even among the co! mmon
      > people the older system continued and in the popular language [~Hebrew
      > quoted ~~ ~~] the day included the following and not the preceding
      > night. See commentary [Hebrew] ad loc.and cf.. also Bornstein, op. cit
      > P 311. Likewise the author of the Gospel according to Matthew has
      > preserved the older system, for we read there 28.1: "In the end of the
      > Sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week."
      > So according to him the Sabbath extended towards the dawn of Sunday
      > morning. 

      This is more correctly rendered, "After the Sabbath, as it was dawning
      into the first of the week . . ." The words "In the" and "of" are not
      in the Greek. Matthew is NOT saying Sabbath extends into Sunday
      morning. He is saying that the Sabbath had ended and dawn was

    • PWC
      Dear Br. David, Please contemplate the follow passage from the Essene Gospel of Peace: Essene Gospel of Peace Bk 1 1:42 ( 42 ) ..... When you can gaze on the
      Message 96 of 96 , Apr 3, 2006
        Dear Br. David,
                Please contemplate the follow passage from the Essene Gospel of Peace:
        Essene Gospel of Peace Bk 1 1:42
        ( 42 ) ..... When you can gaze on the brightness of the noonday sun with unflinching eyes, you can then look upon the blinding light of your Heavenly Father, which is a thousand times brighter than the brightness of a thousand suns. But how should you look upon the blinding light of your Heavenly Father, when you cannot even bear the shining of the blazing sun? Believe me, the sun is as the flame of a candle beside the sun of truth of the Heavenly Father.
        With the brightness that envelops Yahuah, how can it be asserted that anything was created in darkness ??
        Br. Paul

        David Smith <davesmith@...> wrote:
        Davide wrote: Are you perhaps teaching that the Entire Universe was created in Darkness in the Beginning?
        Or maybe are you believing that the Entire Universe, with Billions of Galaxies, and Hundreds of Billions of Stars, and Planets, was Created just in the Fourth Day (Genesis 1:14-19), and in the Beginning YAHWEH would have Created only a Dark Heaven, and a Dark Earth?

        It’s apparent in Genesis that darkness existed before light and is understood if one can answer this question. When did Yahweh create “darkness”? If darkness is simply the absence of light then before light was created there had to be darkness.

        Ge 1:3 And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light.

        Before this happened darkness had to have existed otherwise there would not have been a need to create light. Now, maybe you have a different definition for darkness. Darkness could mean the blotting out of light or the covering of light and so light was first and darkness was created after and overwhelmed the light, restricting its supremacy.
        Davide wrote: Please, Remember that YAHWEH is LIGHT, and there is NO Darkness in HIM, a Being of Light, The Father of the Light, Dwelling in the Light.
        And surely His Malakim (Angels), who HE Created BEFORE The Creation of the Entire Universe, are Beings of Light, and NOT of Darkness (except for those who then BECAME of Darkness, like Satan the devil, and the demons).


        Being a clear matter of Fact, in YAHWEH SHAMMAH, where Father YAHWEH will be, there will be NO Night (Darkness) AT ALL (Revelation 21:25; 22:5), having ANY darkness (night), Physical and Spiritual, being out, just as in The Beginning, when there was no darkness (night), Physical and Spiritual, YET, until Satan the devil and the demons rebelled, and came to be part of the Spiritual darkness (night), and so the Physical darkness (night) came to be!

        If Yahweh is light and the angels are light then why the need to create light in verse 3?

        I notice you said, “where Father YAHWEH will be, there will be NO Night (Darkness) AT ALL,” implying that Yahweh’s light only extends out to a limited area. Since darkness is simply the absence of light and since Yahweh is light and has always existed, then He doesn’t use His light to illuminate the earth or universe but created lights to do this for Him.

        We’re discussing the lights and the darkness of the universe and yet you’re point is that Yahweh is light and Satan is darkness and since Yahweh was first then day’s light comes before night’s darkness.
        Davide wrote: LIGHT is always FIRST, and then the Darkness can come, both in Spiritual and Physical matters!
        If light is first then darkness cannot exist since darkness is the absence of light.

        15:44-46 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. …it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.

        Are we, as you say, enlightened first and then we are in darkness?
        Mt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light (Yahshua).
        Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light
        Ro 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
        Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in Yahweh: walk as children of light:
        1Pe 2:9 Ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

        You have it reversed, darkness comes first and then light is created which obliterates the darkness.

        2Co 4:6 For Elohim, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness.

        It’s impossible to be the opposite, darkness cannot come out of light because darkness is the absence of light.

        2:17 These (evil ones) are wells without water …to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

        I agree, Yahweh is light and He was first but even when He becomes the source of light for New Jerusalem there will still be darkness in other places. So, just because Yahweh was light in the beginning it doesn’t mean He was the source of light spoken of which He created in Gen 1:3.

        Davide wrote: Please note that Genesis 1:2 clearly says that WATERS were there.
        And Water (H2O) is IMPOSSIBLE to exist without Light.
        Since Water was there, that clearly and surely means that there was Light BEFORE.

        Water exists two miles down on the floor of the
        Pacific Ocean yet there is total darkness. We are told Yahweh create light not that He create hydrogen. Genesis 1:1 is when Yahweh created hydrogen and all the other elements that He would eventually make into light, as well as other things.
        Davide wrote: But the Earth BECAME (in Original Hebrew) formless and empty, and Darkness BECAME (in Original Hebrew) upon the face of the deep (Genesis 1:2), clearly meaning that the Earth was NOT Created in that DARK condition in the Beginning (Genesis 1:1; See also Isayah 45:18; Iyyob / Job 38:4-7).
        YAHWEH's FIRST Re-Creative Act on the surface of the Earth, was to Make (in Original Hebrew, and NOT to Create, since HE did Create It in the Beginning!) the Light on the Earth, and to Divide / Separate between Light (that HE Called DAY, Hebrew "Yowm"), and Darkness (that HE Called NIGHT, Hebrew "Layil").

        We are told, “In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth” but are we to believe He created them intact, complete, all in one moment? With modern technology like the Hubble Telescope He is allowing man to get a glimpse of the vastness and magnificence of His creation. In the beginning He did create everything except over time He has “made” them into what He needs for His purpose.

        Eventually, over time, the earth became what Adam knew and over more time it became what we have today. When Yahweh speaks of a “Re-Creative Act” in scripture He always speaks of His future re-creation, of which Yahshua is the beginning. There is never a mention of three creations in scripture, one in the past, our present one and one to come.

        How do you reconcile these passages?

        3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

        Here we have “the first day” even though the heaven has yet to be “made” (2nd day verses 7-8) and the sun has yet to be “made” (4th day).

        16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

        If “the Earth was NOT Created in that DARK condition in the Beginning” why did Yahweh need to create light and why was the sun not created until the 4th day?

        Davide wrote: Please note also that the Hebrew word for "Darkness" ("Choshek") in Genesis 1:2, is the SAME Hebrew word for "Darkness" ("Choshek") in Genesis 1:4-5, that is Called NIGHT (Hebrew "Layil"), and it is NOT Called EVENING (Hebrew "Ereb").

        But all “darkness” is not called night. In Gen 1:5 that particular darkness He called night but there are other forms of darkness that are not called night.

        Davide wrote: On the contrary, everything begins in the LIGHT!

        Would you please show us in scripture where “everything begins in the LIGHT.”

        Brother Arnold wrote: Everything begins in darkness, the day, the month, the earth and even a baby and until the Father of light comes and says let there be light, everything remains in darkness.

        Yes, that is the sequence Yahweh has laid out. Darkness is everywhere but He comes to our aid with His perfect light. Thank you Yahweh for your mercy and for reaching for us in the darkness and pulling us into your glorious light.

        Praise His wonderful name!!


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